Thrall Thread : Living with the dead

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
Could you be a bit more specific about the permanency of them? I'm planning on holding some more tests there. After reloading the save and leaving the temple for 30 days, all of the foes encountered before the magic barrier vanished away. I wonder what did I miss... perhaps I was supposed to anchor them? Also, what level do you usually reach before thralling stronger Invaders and Devotees.

Sorry, I meant as soon as you entered Nightcaller. I am unsure if the corpses are still permanent after making it past the first barrier. I get the feeling they're swept away after the dialogue parts are voiced. Regarding your second question, I'd attained the highest levels by coming back at level 32 with my Opal. I still have much to learn about radiant NPCs. I mean, I assume as soon as you reach the lowest level of their "bracket" they'll scale up like Dremora. I haven't done any extensive tests with this. I recall Adam has, though, I'll have to go and see what it was that was written.

Also, from what I've come to understand about NPC removal scripts, there shouldn't be any need to do anything longer than 10 days. I really should get on figuring out the deal with Rigel, Hajvarr and Bashnag... They are, quite literally, the only three bodies in this game I am troubled by. Really Anise is subject to the same laws, inexplicably losing her clothes after a.... Yup, okay... I'll go do some testing....
 
Last edited:
Also, from what I've come to understand about NPC removal scripts, there shouldn't be any need to do anything longer than 10 days. I really should get on figuring out the deal with Rigel, Hajvarr and Bashnag... They are, quite literally, the only three bodies in this game I am troubled by. Really Anise is subject to the same laws, inexplicably losing her clothes after a.... Yup, okay... I'll go do some testing....
In my previous gameplays, I've managed to keep an anchored-to-permanency Spellsword by keeping Selveni Nethri forever stuck on that cobweb. I wonder if it might interfere with Bashnag's Respawning...
 

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
Ah, you can anchor anyone from the Sanctum indefinitely. It doesn't matter whether she's stuck or escaped.


Okay! I finally got Rigel and Hajvarr to despawn after 30 days! Hurrah! Keep in mind anchoring them will prevent this from happening... I don't know any body collector that would leave their bodies alone for 30 days at a time... But anyways... I'm glad Stucklnmypants wasn't off his rocker the whole time.

After a 10 day revisit to White River Watch, Hajvarr went naked and spawned doubles of his static gear, Rigel no changes. I managed to accidentally GR Bashnag on Farelda so he would survive indefinitely without anchor as long as I didn't revisit Southfringe. He would simply despawn. While anchored Bashnag reset his despawn script, so I'd have to figure out how to GR him again to make him permanent.

Sild will return to Rannveig's Fast if you revisit it after an absence. I am guessing 10 days. It'll probably be after 10 days... and Anise after having her reset herself once no longer is affected by a visit to her cell. That news was so exciting I tried the same with Valmir. Sadly I was only to learn that Valmir is literally SFR as soon as you enter the Forelhost cell. This cell itself extends as far East as Stendarr's Beacon, so be weary of that area if you're keeping Valmir. Again, this doesn't take effect until his camp is removed, and this is something else I do not know the timer of. I'm assuming it's 10 days as well.
 
Reporting more PS3 results from Nightcaller Temple~! As promised, I'm trying to add some pictures to make it easier to show and compare my findings.
Assuming Devotees scale like Dremoras, this test was held by a level 37 character. The wooden plate glitch was performed in order to avoid spawning 'Dreamstride npcs', as the the main goal is to test the ones encountered before the magical barrier. Here follows the results:

-Method used for picking 'best' Orchish Invader: Unarmed & unequipped brawls between candidates
-Method used for picking 'best' Vaermina Devotee: Unarmed magic duels between candidates
The Orc 'winner' has noticeably more Health points than other, and presumably more stamina as well. As for the Devotee, it was even easier to pick a winner due to not only his larger HP/Magicka pool, but also better spells being cast (Lightning bolt & Shock cloack).
b0ed1f722e.jpg


*Both endured the passing of 10 days with an anchor in their inventories.
0a5c5f339d.jpg
---------------- -- -
EDIT:

I'd also like to correct a mistake I've made at page 107, post #2132. The white-haired Orchish Invader can still be found without the consumption of Vaermina's torpor, as the first picture shows. He can be found on the dining area, right before reaching the final room.

---------------- -- -
2nd (and the last, hopefully) EDIT:

A third test was held, this time by a level 46 character. None of the npcs were untrallable as it was expected, so we can scrap the idea of Devotees scaling up like Dremoras. There seems to be two bracket of npcs, as HouseHosted mentioned. In order to keep things simple, those two are going to be referred to as weak and strong, respectively.

-Method used for telling strong brackets from weak ones? The good old fist-on-the-face technique:
2abd24de67.jpg
448e7fcf0b.jpg
Weak Devotee Bracket - Their combat approach is very similar. All of the 3 variants (Male Bosmer, Male Nord, Female Nord/Imperial?) will engage using sparks and proceed to attack with punches once their Magicka bar depletes, Nothing special at all. A couple of extra spells like healing and Oakflesh may also be known by them, however they decided to show only their destructive behavior to me. A shame, isn't it?

Strong Devotee Bracket - There is a catch here. It seems that not every strong variant behaves the same, unlike their weaker relatives. New spells include Shock Cloak, Lightning Bolts, Fast Healing and an upgraded flesh spell. Despite them having a significant increase to their magical arsenal, the male Bosmer variant showed superior combat prowess. Out of the three, he was the only one who casted Shock Cloak and kept a relatively good range while throwing some Lightning Bolts at me. The other two, on the other hand, preferred to go close and personal, spamming those infamous sparks despite having the capability of casting Lightning bolts From afar. Oh well.

Orcs were really easy to tell from each other, as their maximum level is lower than Devotee's.
Here are the Orchish Invaders who won the fighting championship. I did not pick a winner since all of those three have the same amount of HP. Same combat abilities, different templates. Yay!
fa6d982b08.jpg
-Strong Orcs are likely to spawn with two-handed weaponry instead of one handed axes and shields, Not only that, but better gear from the equipment pool as well.
-As mentioned before, You will find one guaranteed white-haired template close to the end of the dungeon. This time, a couple more of them spawned on the way through.
-Weaker Variants couldn't be found at all. It Looks like a 46 character was more than enough to get spawns from the strong bracket.
-Last but not the less important: unlike the Devotee's case, Strong orcs don't share the same npc templates with their weaker brackets. If you stumble across an orc looking different from any of the ones above, then he will be a weaker relative.

~Phew, that was a lot of editing! o_O :coffee:
 
Last edited:

DT4Lyfe

New Member
DT4Lyfe, I'm eager to try your mind control spider glitch method in the PS3 version. The sole idea of being able to clad BBQ Astrid and Susanna the Wicked with real armor is... poetry!

Lol, i did the bandits at helgen. Just found out if you do the spider glitch on respawning generic bandits, the next time they spawn they wont be hostile and will just walk around saying their one liners. Which is kind of cool for RP reasons, have your own little hideout and whatnot. But from what I've seen, it is also permanent and whatever bandits you do the glitch to will never be hostile again on that particular save.

Also a question for anyone who knows: I've read that you can get bandits to respawn IN your house and not at their original location, but I've never been able to do it. I've only tried to do it on probably 10 separate npcs but they never spawn in the house, always back in their original cell. I guess my question is, was this fixed and now they always return to their original location? Or have I just not given enough attempts to find which ones will stay? Thanks in advance.
 
Last edited:

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
I dare say the only thing missing from our understanding of these NPC types is at which player level the stronger variants become their strongest.

Did you do any tests on Thorek or Veren? Their combat AI evolves in some way that is rarely seen in Skyrim from tier to tier. You may be interested in checking them out, Denvald.

Also a question for anyone who knows: I've read that you can get bandits to respawn IN your house and not at their original location, but I've never been able to do it. I've only tried to do it on probably 10 separate npcs but they never spawn in the house, always back in their original cell. I guess my question is, was this fixed and now they always return to their original location? Or have I just not given enough attempts to find which ones will stay? Thanks in advance.

There are two steps to causing this to happen:

1) Sever your instance of the NPC from its original spawn location by keeping it away from its spawn location for 10 days.
2) Allow for a 10 day absence from the site of the corpse of the NPC to within two days time.

Note: Some NPCs are very hit and miss and will not be seen resurrected. Others will, though, most often will immediately exit the premises. I have yet to determine what the correlation is between ones who simply vanish and others who resurrect on site. It's a mystery to me. While the exact behavior of the NPCs on a 10 day absence is not quite predictable, which NPCs affected by this happening is not. Any NPC that is based on a generic body type, e.g. Bandit, Forsworn, Novice Necromancer, etc., will be subject to this phenomenon. This includes unique named NPCs based on generic body types, e.g. Movarth. Also some NPCs will resurrect with you after arriving at a destination after a fast travel.

You know, now that I am thinking about it, I've not done extensive testing on creatures. After my spider trials I pretty well assumed most any other creature will simply despawn, regardless of anchor, in two days time. Only special creature types may vary, e.g. Frostbite Spiders from Harmugstahl, who will resurrect in 10 days.
 
Last edited:
I dare say the only thing missing from our understanding of these NPC types is at which player level the stronger variants become their strongest.
Another test at was made by a level 32 and it managed to get all the 3 stronger Orchish Invader templates as well as the Beefed-up Bosmer Devotee. I'd say the required level for spawning them is either 28 or 32. If your erandur spawns with a glass once met at Windpeak Inn, you're probably on the right level to nab the stronger brackets, as well as Thorek and Veren.
It also seems that the Vaermina NPCS have fixed templates. So far, the strong Bosmer variant only spawned at the first encounter, by the Library entrance.
The reason I didn't edit my previous post with this is because I'm also planing to run another test with a stupidly high-leveled character in order to see if the Devotees will really become unthrallable past some point.


Did you do any tests on Thorek or Veren? Their combat AI evolves in some way that is rarely seen in Skyrim from tier to tier. You may be interested in checking them out, Denvald.
Having dawnguard uninstalled has its benefits and losses, you see. By abdicating Vampire raids I can't get the Aethereal Crown and thus, lose the ability of performing the ritual stone glitch. By running level 32+ tests, the best that can be done by me is observe Erandur fighting his comrades...
 
Last edited:

JayW

Active Member
Does anyone have a list of thralls that cannot be thralled past level 27 (i.e. NPCs who level 1.5 x the rate of the player character)?

Erandur / Bashnag / Falx are the only I could think of off the top of my head.

At level 27 I've been surprised at how good the loot I've been finding is - I'm getting Ebony frequently enough and because I have 100 conjuration I can equip thralls with Daedric weapons using the Atronach forge. I even found some Dragonscale gauntlets which I didn't think possible.
 
Does anyone have a list of thralls that cannot be thralled past level 27 (i.e. NPCs who level 1.5 x the rate of the player character)?

Erandur / Bashnag / Falx are the only I could think of off the top of my head.
Bashnag isn't really part of the gang. He stays at a fixed level provided you prevent his respawning, unlike Erandur and Falx, who are constantly scaling up with you. HouseHosted mentioned a way of keeping Bashnag around, but I'm unaware if it's 100% guaranteed of working. I am not really sure if there are more special npcs to be listed here, sorry.


At level 27 I've been surprised at how good the loot I've been finding is - I'm getting Ebony frequently enough and because I have 100 conjuration I can equip thralls with Daedric weapons using the Atronach forge. I even found some Dragonscale gauntlets which I didn't think possible.
If you have Dawnguard installed, you may consider creating 2 distinct saves for your character. one for your low-level necromancer who still can raise scaling NPCS manually; the other, for a high-level who could make use of the Aetherial Crown glitch to raise them. I split my files once, and It was pretty neat.


PS: I'm looking for some advice regarding Markarth grave robberies. Is it true that NPCS who live in the warrens won't get buried in the hall of the dead? Weylin's personal belongings are nowhere to be found...
 

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
Bashnag and Drelas, who are both max 46 radiant NPCs can be anchored just as most others. Kill, anchor, permanent body, no exceptions. Just make sure Bashnag or Drelas is level locked into their level 28 tier and you'll be able to enthrall them indefinitely. Neither Bashnag nor Drelas are subject to any resurrection, despawning, or SFR behaviors as long as they're anchored.

A good test to do on any body is to kill, anchor, and then leave for two days. If the body still disappears in two days, the body will most likely have to be GR'd.

And one thing: It may have only been how you worded it, but 1.5 scalers cannot be enthralled beyond 26 not 27.
 

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
The list of Radiants!

1 - 23

Lieutenant Salvarus, Captain Avidius

1 - 25

Adventurer (Harmugstahl), Blood Horker, Brandish, Butcher, Captain Aquilius, Captain Hargar, Corsair, East Empire Warden, Eriana, Hamelyn, J'darr, Lowlife, Orcish Invader, Old Orc, Ra'kheran, Rissing, Stalleo, Stalleo's Bodyguard (male), Telrav, Vagrant, Wyndelius

1 - 36

Anise, Naris the Wicked

1 - 46

Bashnag, Drelas, Spellsword

6 - 28

Eisa Blackthorn, Ghunzul, Hajvarr Iron-Hand, Krev the Skinner, Rigel Strong-Arm, Sarthis Idren, Stalleo's Bodyguard (female)

7 - 40

Arondil, Haldyn, Kornalus, Malkoran, Sebastian Lort, Sild the Warlock, The Caller, Vals Veran

7 - 51

Champion of Boethiah, Silvia

(Unknown)

Boethiah Cultist, Silver Hand, Vaermina Devotee

...and the rest

Northwatch Interrogator 14 - 50
Northwatch Guard 4 - 36


Regarding Master Vampires:

Apparently at level 38 you should still be able to enthrall a Master Vampire because they'll be spawning at level 31. In my experience, this has been wrong, namely with Vighar. Anyways, before I write too much about them, I'll need to do a lot of homework.


Earliest developments:

Tests on (1 - 25) and (6 - 28) have been done. The first group appear to level from (1 - 8), (9 - 19), and 20. At player level 20 I'd assume is equal to their max level 25. Between player level 20 - 52 there was no change in NPC health pool. Yea, it's an assumption, but evidence seems to suggest it being true.

The second group appears to level (1 - 5), (6 - 18), and (19 - 25). 25 being the level the NPC puts on Steel Plate. At this point I am willing to accept NPC equipment variations are not the best way to tell NPC level tier. Honestly I wouldn't have any clue to tell without it.


Mages in the (1 - 25) group definitely acquire more spell knowledge at level 9, and warriors put on Steel Armour. It is for this reason I believe this is, at least, in the short term, a fairly accurate way of testing for NPC tier minimums and maximums. Maybe a better approach will come along... Basically it's a start, and hopefully it'll end up being useful to someone including myself.

It is curious that (1 - 25) warriors put on Steel Plate at 20, while (6 - 28)s put it on at 25. It leads me to believe the way tiers are divided is based on a percentage of the whole of the max level of the NPC. It's all rather neat. At the same time I understand why I've never wanted to tackle this issue of radiant leveling NPCs.


edit:

Oh, yes, and this has allowed me to discover more ma level 50s. Linwe, Kaie, and Jaree-Ra are all apparently max level 50s, and I'll be updating the lists I made accordingly.
 

Adam Warlock

Well-Known Member
DT4Lyfe, I'm eager to try your mind control spider glitch method in the PS3 version. The sole idea of being able to clad BBQ Astrid and Susanna the Wicked with real armor is... poetry!

Lol, i did the bandits at helgen. Just found out if you do the spider glitch on respawning generic bandits, the next time they spawn they wont be hostile and will just walk around saying their one liners. Which is kind of cool for RP reasons, have your own little hideout and whatnot. But from what I've seen, it is also permanent and whatever bandits you do the glitch to will never be hostile again on that particular save.

Also a question for anyone who knows: I've read that you can get bandits to respawn IN your house and not at their original location, but I've never been able to do it. I've only tried to do it on probably 10 separate npcs but they never spawn in the house, always back in their original cell. I guess my question is, was this fixed and now they always return to their original location? Or have I just not given enough attempts to find which ones will stay? Thanks in advance.
It was one of the many patches (#6?) that virtually eliminated NPC respawns outside of their points of origin.
 

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
It was one of the many patches (#6?) that virtually eliminated NPC respawns outside of their points of origin.

It's hard to imagine this happening more often that it already does. Almost every time I grab a body on the go, it'll end up surprising me on the 10th day. Part of me wishes I was a necromancer way back when to live what it was like.
 
So far, there had been no progress in Markath for me. After 10 GR attempts, I still couldn't figure out what's the catch with Weylin. Does anyone know if he's SFR?

The list of Radiants!

1 - 23

Lieutenant Salvarus, Captain Avidius

1 - 25

Adventurer (Harmugstahl), Blood Horker, Brandish, Butcher, Captain Aquilius, Captain Hargar, Corsair, East Empire Warden, Eriana, Hamelyn, J'darr, Lowlife, Orcish Invader, Old Orc, Ra'kheran, Rissing, Stalleo, Stalleo's Bodyguard (male), Telrav, Vagrant, Wyndelius

1 - 36

Anise, Naris the Wicked

1 - 46

Bashnag, Drelas, Spellsword

6 - 28

Eisa Blackthorn, Ghunzul, Hajvarr Iron-Hand, Krev the Skinner, Rigel Strong-Arm, Sarthis Idren, Stalleo's Bodyguard (female)

7 - 40

Arondil, Haldyn, Kornalus, Malkoran, Sebastian Lort, Sild the Warlock, The Caller, Vals Veran

7 - 51

Champion of Boethiah, Silvia

(Unknown)

Boethiah Cultist, Silver Hand, Vaermina Devotee

...and the rest

Northwatch Interrogator 14 - 50
Northwatch Guard 4 - 36


Regarding Master Vampires:

Apparently at level 38 you should still be able to enthrall a Master Vampire because they'll be spawning at level 31. In my experience, this has been wrong, namely with Vighar. Anyways, before I write too much about them, I'll need to do a lot of homework.


Earliest developments:

Tests on (1 - 25) and (6 - 28) have been done. The first group appear to level from (1 - 8), (9 - 19), and 20. At player level 20 I'd assume is equal to their max level 25. Between player level 20 - 52 there was no change in NPC health pool. Yea, it's an assumption, but evidence seems to suggest it being true.

The second group appears to level (1 - 5), (6 - 18), and (19 - 25). 25 being the level the NPC puts on Steel Plate. At this point I am willing to accept NPC equipment variations are not the best way to tell NPC level tier. Honestly I wouldn't have any clue to tell without it.


Mages in the (1 - 25) group definitely acquire more spell knowledge at level 9, and warriors put on Steel Armour. It is for this reason I believe this is, at least, in the short term, a fairly accurate way of testing for NPC tier minimums and maximums. Maybe a better approach will come along... Basically it's a start, and hopefully it'll end up being useful to someone including myself.

It is curious that (1 - 25) warriors put on Steel Plate at 20, while (6 - 28)s put it on at 25. It leads me to believe the way tiers are divided is based on a percentage of the whole of the max level of the NPC. It's all rather neat. At the same time I understand why I've never wanted to tackle this issue of radiant leveling NPCs.


edit:

Oh, yes, and this has allowed me to discover more ma level 50s. Linwe, Kaie, and Jaree-Ra are all apparently max level 50s, and I'll be updating the lists I made accordingly.
Oi, don't forget to add Ardwen to the 1 - 46 list~!
 

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
Absolutely. There are going to be quite a few to add In there. It'll just be a matter of gathering more and more info. Thanks for the suggestion. I only wish I'd run into Ardwen by this time... I'm still waiting for her to show her face.


Every citizen of Markarth I've GR'd has needed an alternative method to the one generally accepted. The funny thing is, I still haven't pinned down the exact formula. One thing I can be sure of: Don't use Whiterun as it seems to ensure a body goes straight to their coffin. For Weylin specifically, I used Riften.

I've been noticing more and more with NPCs that need to be GR'd, yet don't live within the walls of a city, require a step preceding the actual GR. As if they must be prepared beforehand. This involves fast traveling across two regions, followed by trapping them within a dungeon, cave, whichever that uses a 'long' loading screen. Once the body is trapped, you can then go about a normal GR. At the time I GR'd Weylin it was by accident, and my success was left completely to chance.

There is only one NPC I can think of that was SFR even after GR'ing, and that was Aicantar... er... SFR if you ever wanted to travel into the Understone Keep again.


edit:

Regarding Ardwen: I've actually been suspecting that she doesn't actually show up in random occurrences until after a level up. Seeing as I only play stunted necromancers, the truth in this would explain why she hasn't yet spawned...
 
Last edited:
Those last 3 in-game days passed very, very slowly... Weylin had to become permanent, one way or the other. During loading screens, the damn bastard catches up to me faster than a lightning strike. Some of my 'advanced' GR techniques included, but were not limited to:
- Fast travel from Markarth to Riften
- Fast travel from Markarth to Riften stables in a desperate attempt of outrunning him
- Beat the crap out of Weylin and run into the closest building
- Throw him into the river canal and run into the closest building
- Cope with the idea that he will always catch up during loading screens
In the end, I just placed a bounty letter on his pocket past the 24-hour wait and called it a day. So far he resisted the 2-day absence...

StuckInMyPants' gamefaq thread mentioned some NPCS still having the need of anchors in order to stay around, even after getting GR'ed. I hope I've stumbled in this kind of situation.
 

HouseHosted

Mundus 9-5, Oblivion weekends
Haha!

To trap an NPC you walk into a building/cell and then reload the autosave. As long as it's a 'long' loading screen, e.g. Outside to inside city wall, inside Darklight Tower to outside, they'll remain "stuck" wherever you were last.

Before GR'ing an NPC I always place on them something I don't worry about losing. Regardless they'll lose anything on their person besides their clothing, I like using something random. Of course, if Weylin is now able to be left alone for two days, he should be GR'd. (I always travel from Markarth to Stendarr's Beacon as a test.) Also Weylin isn't a permanent corpse. He'll have to be anchored.
 
Haha!

To trap an NPC you walk into a building/cell and then reload the autosave. As long as it's a 'long' loading screen, e.g. Outside to inside city wall, inside Darklight Tower to outside, they'll remain "stuck" wherever you were last.

Before GR'ing an NPC I always place on them something I don't worry about losing. Regardless they'll lose anything on their person besides their clothing, I like using something random. Of course, if Weylin is now able to be left alone for two days, he should be GR'd. (I always travel from Markarth to Stendarr's Beacon as a test.) Also Weylin isn't a permanent corpse. He'll have to be anchored.
I'm not going to lie, at first I thought this trick was bullplops, believing that it would involve having your thrall mechanically stuck, unable to follow. I never had expected scripts being involved. Thanks for the heads up, without your message my Necromancers would surely still be employing my unorthodox methodologies.

The ironic part is that during the process, my previous autosave in which Weylin was apparently stable ended up getting overwritten. Such are the dangers of necromancy! With a bitter grin, I've decided not to return to Markarth for a while... Or at least not until Dawnguard gets reinstalled. Some unadressed issues have been happening since I uninstalled it, like the Old Orc losing his permanency.

Playing an overachiever is tough work, you see. He simply cannot Thrall Keeper Carcette and Drelas without getting their contracts from hired thugs, so I decided to move to Southerfringe Sanctum and catch Bashnag first. It turned to be a complete sucess! No decapitation performed by the Dremora Lords, Pumpkin got spared, two non-moaning Spellswords were found and best of all, the chicken didn't turn into a pile of ash! I've always wanted to test if that chicken can be anchorable, besides... Is it wrong to spare the chicken for role-playing purposes? :p
 
Last edited:

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top