Storm cloaks are hypocrites

[W'rkncacnter]

What is subjective about the character not being true Dragonborn without the reality that they are Dragonborn?

I don't understand your question. The character is Dragonborn in reality regardless of knowledge.

 

[Jeremius]

What is subjective about the character not being true Dragonborn without the reality that they are Dragonborn?

I don't understand your question. The character is Dragonborn in reality regardless of knowledge.

Without knowledge or meaning, what is Reality?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Still real.

Reality is independent of observation.

 

[Kross]

Thus, subjectivism met objectivism and worlds collided. . .

The main problem with subjectivism is that it makes the claim "everything is subjective" which has to be an objective statement or the philosophy falls apart. Unfortunately, by relying on an objective statement it falls apart anyway. . .

What is subjective about the character not being true Dragonborn without the reality that they are Dragonborn?

That you say that the dragonborn is not a true dragonborn without the realization of it is not an objective statement. This is only what you think. According to the lore and the definition of the term dragonborn, having the soul of a dragon makes you a dragonborn. End of story.
Then you come along and say you're not a dragonborn unless you know it. Your opinion doesn't match the objective truth of the definition, so it's a subjective opinion. Objectively and in reality the character in Skyrim has the soul of a dragon when you start the game, and is therefore dragonborn.
This is objective fact.
You try to dispute that with your statement that to be dragonborn you have to know you are dragonborn and, like I have said many times previously, this is nonsense, both in terms of the definition and in terms of reality in general.
For something to be doesn't require any consciousness to recognize it first. On the contrary, it takes something to be for a consciousness to be able to recognize it in the first place. The sun doesn't cease to exist at night just because you can't see it, and the dragonborn doesn't stop being dragonborn just because he doesn't know it.

 

[Jeremius]

There is a difference between "reality" and meaningful Reality.

You can be dragonborn without recognizing all you want, it still has absolutely no meaning.

 

[Kross]

There is a difference between "reality" and meaningful Reality.

You can be dragonborn without recognizing all you want, it still has absolutely no meaning.

Yes. The difference is that reality is real regardless of subjectivity and applies to all those who exist in accordance with this reality, while meaningful reality is a matter of subjectivity and differs from each subjective observation of reality.
In other words, reality is real for everyone, while meaningful reality is only real for whatever person believes in it.

 

[Jeremius]

There is a difference between "reality" and meaningful Reality.

You can be dragonborn without recognizing all you want, it still has absolutely no meaning.

Yes. That reality is real regardless of subjectivity and applies to all those who exist in accordance with this reality, while meaningful reality is a matter of subjectivity and differs from each subjective observation of reality.
In other words, reality is real for everyone, while meaningful reality is real for whoever believes in it.

Without that recognition, what is the real meaning behind being dragonborn? Dragonborn is just WHAT they are as a soul, not WHO they are as a person.

 

[Kross]

There is a difference between "reality" and meaningful Reality.

You can be dragonborn without recognizing all you want, it still has absolutely no meaning.

Yes. That reality is real regardless of subjectivity and applies to all those who exist in accordance with this reality, while meaningful reality is a matter of subjectivity and differs from each subjective observation of reality.
In other words, reality is real for everyone, while meaningful reality is real for whoever believes in it.

Without that recognition, what is the real meaning behind being dragonborn? Dragonborn is just WHAT they are as a soul, not WHO they are as a person.

That's exactly right. Being dragonborn just means you have the soul of a dragon. Nothing more, nothing less.
It doesn't say anything about your race or the color of your hair or anything about your destiny. It only means that you have the soul of a dragon.

 

[Jeremius]

Yes. That reality is real regardless of subjectivity and applies to all those who exist in accordance with this reality, while meaningful reality is a matter of subjectivity and differs from each subjective observation of reality.
In other words, reality is real for everyone, while meaningful reality is real for whoever believes in it.

Without that recognition, what is the real meaning behind being dragonborn? Dragonborn is just WHAT they are as a soul, not WHO they are as a person.

That's exactly right. Being dragonborn just means you have the soul of a dragon. Nothing more, nothing less.
It doesn't say anything about your race or the color of your hair or anything about your destiny. It only means that you have the soul of a dragon.

They are not dragonborn AS a PERSON, just a soul, which is worthless without being on AS a PERSON.

Like being a good soul, but continually doing bad deeds for good reasons. I am still a bad PERSON, but my heart, my SOUL is in the right place.

 

[Kross]

Without that recognition, what is the real meaning behind being dragonborn? Dragonborn is just WHAT they are as a soul, not WHO they are as a person.

That's exactly right. Being dragonborn just means you have the soul of a dragon. Nothing more, nothing less.
It doesn't say anything about your race or the color of your hair or anything about your destiny. It only means that you have the soul of a dragon.

They are not dragonborn AS a PERSON, just a soul, which is worthless without being on AS a PERSON.

Whether it's worthless or not is your opinion, and I'm not interested in disputing that. The worth of their existence as dragonborn is independent of the reality of their existence as dragonborn, however.
All I'm saying is that you are not allowed to say that they are not a dragonborn being.

 

[Jeremius]

That's exactly right. Being dragonborn just means you have the soul of a dragon. Nothing more, nothing less.
It doesn't say anything about your race or the color of your hair or anything about your destiny. It only means that you have the soul of a dragon.

They are not dragonborn AS a PERSON, just a soul, which is worthless without being on AS a PERSON.

Whether it's worthless or not is your opinion, and I'm not interested in disputing that. The worth of their existence as dragonborn is independent of the reality of their existence as dragonborn, however.
All I'm saying is that you are not allowed to say that they are not a dragonborn being.

They are not as a person, because being a dragonborn is more that just having a dragon soul. What is the point of being dragonborn if they do not use their blessing, AS A PERSON, and become what their soul is?

 

[Daelon DuLac]

This philosophical discussion on reality vs. unreality is giving me a headache...

 

[Jeremius]

This philosophical discussion on reality vs. unreality is giving me a headache...

And it is getting off-topic. I am done with it. My characters are not Dragonborn like the Septims because they never use it. They may be in the soul, but without them being one in person, that is pointless.

 

[Kross]

They are not dragonborn AS a PERSON, just a soul, which is worthless without being on AS a PERSON.

Whether it's worthless or not is your opinion, and I'm not interested in disputing that. The worth of their existence as dragonborn is independent of the reality of their existence as dragonborn, however.
All I'm saying is that you are not allowed to say that they are not a dragonborn being.

They are not as a person, because being a dragonborn is more that just having a dragon soul. What is the point of being dragonborn if they do not use their blessing, AS A PERSON, and become what their soul is?

Being a dragonborn IS NOT more than just having a dragon soul. That's the point.
From the elder scrolls wikipedia:

A Dragonborn, (transliterated from to Dovahkiin in the Dragon language), is a rare individual who has been born with the blood and soul of a Dragon, but the body of a mortal, and can naturally learn and speak their ancient and powerful tongue, called the Thu'um.

 

[Jeremius]

Whether it's worthless or not is your opinion, and I'm not interested in disputing that. The worth of their existence as dragonborn is independent of the reality of their existence as dragonborn, however.
All I'm saying is that you are not allowed to say that they are not a dragonborn being.

They are not as a person, because being a dragonborn is more that just having a dragon soul. What is the point of being dragonborn if they do not use their blessing, AS A PERSON, and become what their soul is?

Being a dragonborn IS NOT more than just having a dragon soul. That's the point.
From the elder scrolls wikipedia:

A Dragonborn, (transliterated from to Dovahkiin in the Dragon language), is a rare individual who has been born with the blood and soul of a Dragon, but the body of a mortal, and can naturally learn and speak their ancient and powerful tongue, called the Thu'um.

Septims had a purpose, to keep the flame lit and the barrier between the world and Oblivion up. Without the Septim line, there would have been no barrier.

Martin had a purpose, to stop the oblivion crisis.

Tiber Septim had a purpose, to unite the Empire.

Saint Alessia had a purpose, to free the slaves.

The Last Dragonborn has a purpose, to stop Alduin for now.

See the pattern? the Dragonborn soul is usally given to a person to help them with a specific purpose. Without doing that purpose, they fail as dragonborn.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I've come to the conclusion that without a shared definition of reality we cannot hope to have a logical discussion.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

From what the Wiki says. I guess you are Dragonborn by virtue of your blood giving you the ability to acquire the special abilities that a one who is Dragonborn is able to acquire. Whether you, as an individual with dragonblood actually pursue being the "Dragonborn" is really not important.

To me it's like saying that I'm not Norwegian despite both of my parents being Norwegian and being born in Norway because I do not live in Norway and have no involvement with Norwegian culture or life.

I'm still Norwegian, I have just chosen not to pursue it.

Just my opinion.

 

[Jeremius]

From what the Wiki says. I guess you are Dragonborn by virtue of your blood giving you the ability to acquire the special abilities that a one who is Dragonborn is able to acquire. Whether you, as an individual with dragonblood actually pursue being the "Dragonborn" is really not important.

To me it's like saying that I'm not Norwegian despite both of my parents being Norwegian and being born in Norway because I do not live in Norway and have no involvement with Norwegian culture or life.

I'm still Norwegian, I have just chosen not to pursue it.

Just my opinion.

And the "dragonborn" would not be so without Alduin. Like every other Dragonborn, except Miraak, the Last Dragonborn has a purpose, a reason for that soul.

 

[Kross]

From what the Wiki says. I guess you are Dragonborn by virtue of your blood giving you the ability to acquire the special abilities that a one who is Dragonborn is able to acquire. Whether you, as an individual with dragonblood actually pursue being the "Dragonborn" is really not important.

To me it's like saying that I'm not Norwegian despite both of my parents being Norwegian and being born in Norway because I do not live in Norway and have no involvement with Norwegian culture or life.

I'm still Norwegian, I have just chosen not to pursue it.

Just my opinion.

And the "dragonborn" would not be so without Alduin. Like every other Dragonborn, except Miraak, the Last Dragonborn has a purpose, a reason for that soul.

Not really. There were a number of dragonborn after Alduin's disappearance that we do not hear much about, who don't seem to have had any specific destiny or purpose to fulfil.
Your incessant insistence that a specific destiny is required to be considered dragonborn is simply false in view of the lore and the canon definition of the term. The only criterion is being born with the soul of a dragon. What you do with your life has no meaning whatsoever in this context.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

From what the Wiki says. I guess you are Dragonborn by virtue of your blood giving you the ability to acquire the special abilities that a one who is Dragonborn is able to acquire. Whether you, as an individual with dragonblood actually pursue being the "Dragonborn" is really not important.

To me it's like saying that I'm not Norwegian despite both of my parents being Norwegian and being born in Norway because I do not live in Norway and have no involvement with Norwegian culture or life.

I'm still Norwegian, I have just chosen not to pursue it.

Just my opinion.

And the "dragonborn" would not be so without Alduin. Like every other Dragonborn, except Miraak, the Last Dragonborn has a purpose, a reason for that soul.

Having a purpose does not mean that one is required to act upon it.

Say my family were Witchhunters going back 100's of years. Obviously my "expected" purpose in life would be to hunt witches. What if I chose to go in to exotic dancing instead?

Just because a purpose is "expected" doesn't mean that it's a requirement.

Frankly, in Skyrim, I really don't care if Alduin is there or not. So he's eating souls in Solstheim. What do I care? I ain't going there. And he doesn't seem to be doing all that much harm in the material world. So there's a few dragons. Big deal. There are bears, vampires, werewolves and any number of walking dead about too. Are dragons the worst thing?