Storm cloaks are hypocrites

[Jeremius]

Dragonborn is a descriptor. It descibes a state of being (i.e. being born with the blood and soul of a dragon). You either are or are not born that way. So you either are or are not Dragonborn. In this case, you are.

It does not rely on knowledge or acceptance to be true.

But if you never know that you are, are you truly what you claim to be?

Again, it would be like me being born good at the piano, but never actually playing one. I am not naturally good at the piano IF I never play one. Same thing here. I never have the power of Dragoborn if I do not unlock that power, so being born the dragonborn is meaningless.

Yes, even if you never know what you are, you truly are that. I already gave you two examples of this:
Martin Septim was capable of lighting the Dragonfires even though he never knew (or believed) that he was dragonborn. He was dragonborn without knowing it, even before he used the power it granted him. He used the power because he was dragonborn, he didn't become dragonborn because he used the power. Even if he had never been recruited by the blades and had lived his entire life without knowing he was the son of the emperor, he could still have lit the dragonfires at any time.

The second example is you, as a human, being descended from apes. Even if you're never taught this in school, it's still true. If someone developed a virus to target every being descended from one of the ancestors of humanity, you will get hit by that virus whether you know or believe that you are descended from apes.

And about your piano argument. If you are born with the ability to play the piano, you have that ability even if you never touch a piano. You could go your whole life and not play a piano, ever, and you would still have the ability to do if you wished.
Using an ability/power isn't what determines what you are, it's having the power. If you're a natural at playing the piano, you're a natural at playing the piano, even if you don't do it.

But again, this is irrelevant in this context, because absorbing dragon souls isn't the power that defines the dragonborn. The power that defines the dragonborn is being born with the soul of a dragon, and you cannot get around that fact in any way.

None of it means anything, though, so you can that the character is all you want, but not doing the main quest makes being born the Dragonborn pointless as then it means nothing.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Meaningless to the character, but no less true.

 

[Kross]

But if you never know that you are, are you truly what you claim to be?

Again, it would be like me being born good at the piano, but never actually playing one. I am not naturally good at the piano IF I never play one. Same thing here. I never have the power of Dragoborn if I do not unlock that power, so being born the dragonborn is meaningless.

Yes, even if you never know what you are, you truly are that. I already gave you two examples of this:
Martin Septim was capable of lighting the Dragonfires even though he never knew (or believed) that he was dragonborn. He was dragonborn without knowing it, even before he used the power it granted him. He used the power because he was dragonborn, he didn't become dragonborn because he used the power. Even if he had never been recruited by the blades and had lived his entire life without knowing he was the son of the emperor, he could still have lit the dragonfires at any time.

The second example is you, as a human, being descended from apes. Even if you're never taught this in school, it's still true. If someone developed a virus to target every being descended from one of the ancestors of humanity, you will get hit by that virus whether you know or believe that you are descended from apes.

And about your piano argument. If you are born with the ability to play the piano, you have that ability even if you never touch a piano. You could go your whole life and not play a piano, ever, and you would still have the ability to do if you wished.
Using an ability/power isn't what determines what you are, it's having the power. If you're a natural at playing the piano, you're a natural at playing the piano, even if you don't do it.

But again, this is irrelevant in this context, because absorbing dragon souls isn't the power that defines the dragonborn. The power that defines the dragonborn is being born with the soul of a dragon, and you cannot get around that fact in any way.

None of it means anything, though, so you can that the character is all you want, but not doing the main quest makes being born the Dragonborn pointless as then it means nothing.

That's entirely true. There's a long line of dragonborn in the septim dynasty who never used their dragonborn powers.
I don't have a problem with that statement, you just cannot say that your character isn't dragonborn simply because they don't do the questline. In that case they're just a useless dragonborn who doesn't use their powers.

 

[Jeremius]

Yes, even if you never know what you are, you truly are that. I already gave you two examples of this:
Martin Septim was capable of lighting the Dragonfires even though he never knew (or believed) that he was dragonborn. He was dragonborn without knowing it, even before he used the power it granted him. He used the power because he was dragonborn, he didn't become dragonborn because he used the power. Even if he had never been recruited by the blades and had lived his entire life without knowing he was the son of the emperor, he could still have lit the dragonfires at any time.

The second example is you, as a human, being descended from apes. Even if you're never taught this in school, it's still true. If someone developed a virus to target every being descended from one of the ancestors of humanity, you will get hit by that virus whether you know or believe that you are descended from apes.

And about your piano argument. If you are born with the ability to play the piano, you have that ability even if you never touch a piano. You could go your whole life and not play a piano, ever, and you would still have the ability to do if you wished.
Using an ability/power isn't what determines what you are, it's having the power. If you're a natural at playing the piano, you're a natural at playing the piano, even if you don't do it.

But again, this is irrelevant in this context, because absorbing dragon souls isn't the power that defines the dragonborn. The power that defines the dragonborn is being born with the soul of a dragon, and you cannot get around that fact in any way.

None of it means anything, though, so you can that the character is all you want, but not doing the main quest makes being born the Dragonborn pointless as then it means nothing.

That's entirely true. There's a long line of dragonborn in the septim dynasty who never used their dragonborn powers.
I don't have a problem with that statement, you just cannot say that your character isn't dragonborn simply because they don't do the questline. In that case they're just a useless dragonborn who doesn't use their powers.

Technically I am right about them not being dragonborn. They may be born that way, but it does not mean anything to them if they do not recognize it or even know about it and do something about it.

Being Dragonborn is much more than being blessed by Akatosh. IT is about destiny, and if one never faces that destiny, why should they be considered dragonborn?

 

[Kross]

None of it means anything, though, so you can that the character is all you want, but not doing the main quest makes being born the Dragonborn pointless as then it means nothing.

That's entirely true. There's a long line of dragonborn in the septim dynasty who never used their dragonborn powers.
I don't have a problem with that statement, you just cannot say that your character isn't dragonborn simply because they don't do the questline. In that case they're just a useless dragonborn who doesn't use their powers.

Technically I am right about them not being dragonborn. They may be born that way, but it does not mean anything to them if they do not recognize it or even know about it and do something about it.

Nope, you are not technically right. Using dragonborn powers doesn't make you dragonborn, being dragonborn does. Being dragonborn isn't a role or a title or a profession. It's more like a race. You can be born a dunmer but grow up in Cyrodiil, have cyrodiilic customs and culture and accent, but at the end of the day you will still be dunmer. And no matter what a dragonborn does, he is still born with the soul of a dragon, which is what makes a dragonborn.

 

[Jeremius]

That's entirely true. There's a long line of dragonborn in the septim dynasty who never used their dragonborn powers.
I don't have a problem with that statement, you just cannot say that your character isn't dragonborn simply because they don't do the questline. In that case they're just a useless dragonborn who doesn't use their powers.

Technically I am right about them not being dragonborn. They may be born that way, but it does not mean anything to them if they do not recognize it or even know about it and do something about it.

Nope, you are not technically right. Using dragonborn powers doesn't make you dragonborn, being dragonborn does. Being dragonborn isn't a role or a title or a profession. It's more like a race. You can be born a dunmer but grow up in Cyrodiil, have cyrodiilic customs and culture and accent, but at the end of the day you will still be dunmer. And no matter what a dragonborn does, he is still born with the soul of a dragon, which is what makes a dragonborn.

Facing your destiny is being dragonborn, and how can one be dragonborn if they never face their destiny?

 

[Kross]

Technically I am right about them not being dragonborn. They may be born that way, but it does not mean anything to them if they do not recognize it or even know about it and do something about it.

Nope, you are not technically right. Using dragonborn powers doesn't make you dragonborn, being dragonborn does. Being dragonborn isn't a role or a title or a profession. It's more like a race. You can be born a dunmer but grow up in Cyrodiil, have cyrodiilic customs and culture and accent, but at the end of the day you will still be dunmer. And no matter what a dragonborn does, he is still born with the soul of a dragon, which is what makes a dragonborn.

Facing your destiny is being dragonborn, and how can one be dragonborn if they never face their destiny?

Wat? That's not at all what being dragonborn is. Every single descendant of Tiber Septim was dragonborn, and most of them have never been heard of. They were nobodies. They didn't do anything but sit in their castles and eat and drink until they died. But they were still dragonborn.

 

[Jeremius]

Nope, you are not technically right. Using dragonborn powers doesn't make you dragonborn, being dragonborn does. Being dragonborn isn't a role or a title or a profession. It's more like a race. You can be born a dunmer but grow up in Cyrodiil, have cyrodiilic customs and culture and accent, but at the end of the day you will still be dunmer. And no matter what a dragonborn does, he is still born with the soul of a dragon, which is what makes a dragonborn.

Facing your destiny is being dragonborn, and how can one be dragonborn if they never face their destiny?

Wat? That's not at all what being dragonborn is. Every single descendant of Tiber Septim was dragonborn, and most of them have never been heard of. They were nobodies. They didn't do anything but sit in their castles and eat and drink until they died. But they were still dragonborn.

many of Septim's line had no destiny. They could not be anything but the Emperor. Being "dragonborn" just gave them legitimate claim.

The LAST DRAGONBORN, as in OUR CHARACTER has a destiny, being the LAST DRAGONBORN means nothing if they do not face that. pointless in other words.

 

[Kross]

Facing your destiny is being dragonborn, and how can one be dragonborn if they never face their destiny?

Wat? That's not at all what being dragonborn is. Every single descendant of Tiber Septim was dragonborn, and most of them have never been heard of. They were nobodies. They didn't do anything but sit in their castles and eat and drink until they died. But they were still dragonborn.

The LAST DRAGONBORN, as in OUR CHARACTER has a destiny, being the LAST DRAGONBORN means nothing if they do not face that. pointless in other words.

But we are not discussing fulfilling the destiny of the last dragonborn. We are discussing what makes someone a dragonborn, and that is being born with the soul of a dragon. End of discussion, really.

 

[Jeremius]

Wat? That's not at all what being dragonborn is. Every single descendant of Tiber Septim was dragonborn, and most of them have never been heard of. They were nobodies. They didn't do anything but sit in their castles and eat and drink until they died. But they were still dragonborn.

The LAST DRAGONBORN, as in OUR CHARACTER has a destiny, being the LAST DRAGONBORN means nothing if they do not face that. pointless in other words.

But we are not discussing fulfilling the destiny of the last dragonborn. We are discussing what makes someone a dragonborn, and that is being born with the soul of a dragon. End of discussion, really.

And there is no soul of a dragon without being known as dragonborn. Without knowing that, being born with any soul is meaningless.

 

[Kross]

The LAST DRAGONBORN, as in OUR CHARACTER has a destiny, being the LAST DRAGONBORN means nothing if they do not face that. pointless in other words.

But we are not discussing fulfilling the destiny of the last dragonborn. We are discussing what makes someone a dragonborn, and that is being born with the soul of a dragon. End of discussion, really.

And there is no soul of a dragon without being known as dragonborn. Without knowing that, being born with any soul is meaningless.

The soul of the playable character in Skyrim is a dragon soul from the beginning of the game. It doesn't require any quests or actions or decisions, it just is from the moment you start the game. Even if you never do the quest that reveals your dragonborn nature, your soul is still that of a dragon and your nature still is dragonborn.

 

[Jeremius]

But we are not discussing fulfilling the destiny of the last dragonborn. We are discussing what makes someone a dragonborn, and that is being born with the soul of a dragon. End of discussion, really.

And there is no soul of a dragon without being known as dragonborn. Without knowing that, being born with any soul is meaningless.

The soul of the playable character in Skyrim is a dragon soul from the beginning of the game. It doesn't require any quests or actions or decisions, it just is from the moment you start the game. Even if you never do the quest that reveals your dragonborn nature, your soul is still that of a dragon and your nature still is dragonborn.

It does not mean anything until recognition. Even if they were born as Akatosh himself, if they do not recognize it, it has no meaning.

That is the point. It has no meaning if they do not recognize it. and they cannot be dragonborn if there is no meaning behind it outside of recognizing it.

 

[Kross]

And there is no soul of a dragon without being known as dragonborn. Without knowing that, being born with any soul is meaningless.

The soul of the playable character in Skyrim is a dragon soul from the beginning of the game. It doesn't require any quests or actions or decisions, it just is from the moment you start the game. Even if you never do the quest that reveals your dragonborn nature, your soul is still that of a dragon and your nature still is dragonborn.

It does not mean anything until recognition. Even if they were born as Akatosh himself, if they do not recognize it, it has no meaning.

That is the point. It has no meaning if they do not recognize it. and they cannot be dragonborn if there is no meaning behind it outside of recognizing it.

It's nonsense to say they aren't dragonborn if there's no meaning to being dragonborn. You do not need meaning to be anything. The player character is dragonborn as much as you are human. You can say you don't recognize your humanity or that you don't know you're human, but you still are. And there's no meaning to you being human, you just are. The playable character just is dragonborn, whether it means anything to them or not. It's a state of being you're born into, it's not a title or a profession or a destiny or anything like that. If you're born dragonborn, you are dragonborn.
It does not require you to uses it to be true. It's always true, when you chose to use and when you do not chose to use it.

 

[Jeremius]

The soul of the playable character in Skyrim is a dragon soul from the beginning of the game. It doesn't require any quests or actions or decisions, it just is from the moment you start the game. Even if you never do the quest that reveals your dragonborn nature, your soul is still that of a dragon and your nature still is dragonborn.

It does not mean anything until recognition. Even if they were born as Akatosh himself, if they do not recognize it, it has no meaning.

That is the point. It has no meaning if they do not recognize it. and they cannot be dragonborn if there is no meaning behind it outside of recognizing it.

It's nonsense to say they aren't dragonborn if there's no meaning to being dragonborn. You do not need meaning to be anything. The player character is dragonborn as much as you are human. You can say you don't recognize your humanity or that you don't know you're human, but you still are. And there's no meaning to you being human, you just are. The playable character just is dragonborn, whether it means anything to them or not. It's a state of being you're born into, it's not a title or a profession or a destiny or anything like that. If you're born dragonborn, you are dragonborn.
It does not require you to uses it to be true. It's always true, when you chose to use and when you do not chose to use it.

And you need to recognize it for it to be a reality. Being dragonborn is pointless if the character does not recognize that they are.

Saying they are no matter what is meta-gaming.

 

[Kross]

It does not mean anything until recognition. Even if they were born as Akatosh himself, if they do not recognize it, it has no meaning.

That is the point. It has no meaning if they do not recognize it. and they cannot be dragonborn if there is no meaning behind it outside of recognizing it.

It's nonsense to say they aren't dragonborn if there's no meaning to being dragonborn. You do not need meaning to be anything. The player character is dragonborn as much as you are human. You can say you don't recognize your humanity or that you don't know you're human, but you still are. And there's no meaning to you being human, you just are. The playable character just is dragonborn, whether it means anything to them or not. It's a state of being you're born into, it's not a title or a profession or a destiny or anything like that. If you're born dragonborn, you are dragonborn.
It does not require you to uses it to be true. It's always true, when you chose to use and when you do not chose to use it.

And you need to recognize it for it to be a reality. Being dragonborn is pointless if the character does not recognize that they are.

Saying they are no matter what is meta-gaming.

You do not have to recognize something for it to be true, this is nonsense. Like I already said, people used to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Their belief didn't make this a reality. The reality was that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
Same with Martin Septim, he didn't know he was the son of the emperor, but he still was. You can't change that fact. It didn't mean anything to him subjectively, but that's not what you're saying. And changing your argument to make it sound like you're talking from the subjective point of view of the character won't help you when it doesn't fit with the statement you are making. You are not saying that it doesn't mean anything to the character that they are dragonborn, because they don't know anything about it.
You are saying that they CEASE TO BE THE DRAGONBORN, that THEIR EXISTANCE CHANGES FROM BEING DRAGONBORN TO NOT BEING DRAGONBORN, because they don't know that they are. This is absolute nonsense. Their beliefs doesn't change the nature of reality.
Like I already granted you in previous posts, you can say that it doesn't mean anything to the character to be dragonborn if they don't know that they are.
What you CANNOT say is that they are not dragonborn because they don't know that they are. This is nonsense. Being dragonborn doesn't require you to know it. It's meaningless being dragonborn if you don't know that you are, yes, but you still are dragonborn even if it doesn't mean anything to you.

The only metagaming is saying that your character isn't the dragonborn because you don't want them to be. The character is dragonborn whether you like it or not.

 

[Jeremius]

It's nonsense to say they aren't dragonborn if there's no meaning to being dragonborn. You do not need meaning to be anything. The player character is dragonborn as much as you are human. You can say you don't recognize your humanity or that you don't know you're human, but you still are. And there's no meaning to you being human, you just are. The playable character just is dragonborn, whether it means anything to them or not. It's a state of being you're born into, it's not a title or a profession or a destiny or anything like that. If you're born dragonborn, you are dragonborn.
It does not require you to uses it to be true. It's always true, when you chose to use and when you do not chose to use it.

And you need to recognize it for it to be a reality. Being dragonborn is pointless if the character does not recognize that they are.

Saying they are no matter what is meta-gaming.

You do not have to recognize something for it to be true, this is nonsense. Like I already said, people used to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Their belief didn't make this a reality. The reality was that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
Same with Martin Septim, he didn't know he was the son of the emperor, but he still was. You can't change that fact. It didn't mean anything to him subjectively, but that's not what you're saying. And changing your argument to make it sound like you're talking from the subjective point of view of the character won't help you when it doesn't fit with the statement you are making. You are not saying that it doesn't mean anything to the character that they are dragonborn, because they don't know anything about it.
You are saying that they CEASE TO BE THE DRAGONBORN, that THEIR EXISTANCE CHANGES FROM BEING DRAGONBORN TO NOT BEING DRAGONBORN, because they don't know that they are. This is absolute nonsense. Their beliefs doesn't change the nature of reality.
Like I already granted you in previous posts, you can say that it doesn't mean anything to the character to be dragonborn if they don't know that they are.
What you CANNOT say is that they are not dragonborn because they don't know that they are. This is nonsense. Being dragonborn doesn't require you to know it. It's meaningless being dragonborn if you don't know that you are, yes, but you still are dragonborn even if it doesn't mean anything to you.

The only metagaming is saying that your character isn't the dragonborn because you don't want them to be. The character is dragonborn whether you like it or not.

You need to recognize it for there to be a reality of it, a meaning to it. Otherwise, the word is just what the word says it is.

 

[Kross]

And you need to recognize it for it to be a reality. Being dragonborn is pointless if the character does not recognize that they are.

Saying they are no matter what is meta-gaming.

You do not have to recognize something for it to be true, this is nonsense. Like I already said, people used to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Their belief didn't make this a reality. The reality was that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
Same with Martin Septim, he didn't know he was the son of the emperor, but he still was. You can't change that fact. It didn't mean anything to him subjectively, but that's not what you're saying. And changing your argument to make it sound like you're talking from the subjective point of view of the character won't help you when it doesn't fit with the statement you are making. You are not saying that it doesn't mean anything to the character that they are dragonborn, because they don't know anything about it.
You are saying that they CEASE TO BE THE DRAGONBORN, that THEIR EXISTANCE CHANGES FROM BEING DRAGONBORN TO NOT BEING DRAGONBORN, because they don't know that they are. This is absolute nonsense. Their beliefs doesn't change the nature of reality.
Like I already granted you in previous posts, you can say that it doesn't mean anything to the character to be dragonborn if they don't know that they are.
What you CANNOT say is that they are not dragonborn because they don't know that they are. This is nonsense. Being dragonborn doesn't require you to know it. It's meaningless being dragonborn if you don't know that you are, yes, but you still are dragonborn even if it doesn't mean anything to you.

The only metagaming is saying that your character isn't the dragonborn because you don't want them to be. The character is dragonborn whether you like it or not.

You need to recognize it for there to be a reality of it, a meaning to it. Otherwise, the word is just what the word says it is.

Being born with the soul of a dragon makes you dragonborn.
Whether the character know it or not, they still are dragonborn.

 

[Jeremius]

You do not have to recognize something for it to be true, this is nonsense. Like I already said, people used to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Their belief didn't make this a reality. The reality was that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
Same with Martin Septim, he didn't know he was the son of the emperor, but he still was. You can't change that fact. It didn't mean anything to him subjectively, but that's not what you're saying. And changing your argument to make it sound like you're talking from the subjective point of view of the character won't help you when it doesn't fit with the statement you are making. You are not saying that it doesn't mean anything to the character that they are dragonborn, because they don't know anything about it.
You are saying that they CEASE TO BE THE DRAGONBORN, that THEIR EXISTANCE CHANGES FROM BEING DRAGONBORN TO NOT BEING DRAGONBORN, because they don't know that they are. This is absolute nonsense. Their beliefs doesn't change the nature of reality.
Like I already granted you in previous posts, you can say that it doesn't mean anything to the character to be dragonborn if they don't know that they are.
What you CANNOT say is that they are not dragonborn because they don't know that they are. This is nonsense. Being dragonborn doesn't require you to know it. It's meaningless being dragonborn if you don't know that you are, yes, but you still are dragonborn even if it doesn't mean anything to you.

The only metagaming is saying that your character isn't the dragonborn because you don't want them to be. The character is dragonborn whether you like it or not.

You need to recognize it for there to be a reality of it, a meaning to it. Otherwise, the word is just what the word says it is.

Being born with the soul of a dragon makes you dragonborn.
Whether the character know it or not, they still are dragonborn.

Dragonborn without meaning, knowledge of it, or the reality of it. Yeah, true dragonborn there.

Without the recognition, reality, or meaning behind the word, what does that mean to my characters who never do the main questline?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Thus, subjectivism met objectivism and worlds collided. . .

The main problem with subjectivism is that it makes the claim "everything is subjective" which has to be an objective statement or the philosophy falls apart. Unfortunately, by relying on an objective statement it falls apart anyway. . .

 

[Jeremius]

Thus, subjectivism met objectivism and worlds collided. . .

The main problem with subjectivism is that it makes the claim "everything is subjective" which has to be an objective statement or the philosophy falls apart. Unfortunately, by relying on an objective statement it falls apart anyway. . .

What is subjective about the character not being true Dragonborn without the reality that they are Dragonborn?