Remember a time when vampires sucked?

[The Seeker]

I used to look up advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire from time to time the first few months after skyrim first came out, and everyone says how they sucked and the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, and how werewolves are better. Now, since someone spread the word that necromage benefits all active effects, armor enchants, and spells cast on self, "everyone" loves them and they "are" the best class as far as maximizing stats with smithing, alchemy, chanting, ect.

I want to know what you think. Did you all know about this from day one? Am I the only one when searching for info on vampires last year found nothing about the necromage buffing vampires? I think that it's so funny how they were considered a crappy class to play compared to werewolves, and now they are kings. What are your thoughts on the subject?

 

[Punz]

I wanted to be a vampire from the beginning. I could careless about what the other players thought about it. Comparing a beast to a Revenant is absurd. They can't be compared. Two different species. Two different curses.

I played my entire two builds as vampires. One a Warrior and the other a Nercomage. Being a vampire doesn't make a warrior better or a mage great, it's the skill the warrior and mage already possess. True, you get more of an advantage being a Nercomage Vampire, but it's nothing that a regular mortal couldn't accomplish. Vampirisim in Skyrim is a condition, not a perk. With Dawnguard, that'll change. They now rival the Lycan in usable. They take on a more demonic appearance when they go Vampire Lord, resembling Dracula. Their transformation is at will with no daily waiting cycle to reuse it. They can summon Gargoyles, the drain life spell is now effective and you can disappear using bats.

Vampires in Skyrim needed an upgrade. They needed to stand above the rest. It was sad to read all these great Skyrim vampire books about these seemingly indestructible Master vampires to only encounter nothing more than a regular mage. Now, they have become the damned. The wretched. They can stand on their feet and give the world a challenge.

Can't wait for the DLC.

 

[Necromis]

Personally I thnk the both suck in abilities. I mean werewolf combat sucks, vampire abilities are still very under-whelming, unless you use that perk, and not everyone wants to be a vamp mage. Granted I am old schoold when it comes to my beliefs in their abilities. My feelings are expressed in the great paper/pen RPGs by Whitewolf. They have truly a great understanding of vampires and werewolves. Even Underworld has a somewhat better understanding.

Make me a creature of the night, make the light of day kill me. However, give me my dayum enhancements, too and forget about freaking *stages* of hunger. Just don't make me sparkle in the light. No....no.....never that.

 

[Punz]

Just don't make me sparkle in the light. No....no.....never that.

Never!!!

 

[Dagmar]

Personally, I don't use exploits so the unintended beneficial effect from the Necromage perk is totally unappealing to me. It's also overkill given what you can accomplish without using it by simply maxing out and using an Enchanting build. If I choose to play as a Vampire it would be in spite of it rather than because of it.

 

[DeadxTime]

I think what turned people against playing as a vampire was that you have to feed to stay within the "human" world. Also that people thought that if your a vampire you are going to be invincible and become a tank. This is quite the oppisite as vampires are weak against fire and are more for assassin type players who do sneak around killing people not barging in head first and destroying everything.

 

[The Seeker]

Personally, I don't use exploits so the unintended beneficial effect from the Necromage perk is totally unappealing to me. It's also overkill given what you can accomplish without using it by simply maxing out and using an Enchanting build. If I choose to play as a Vampire it would be in spite of it rather than because of it.

I'd have to disagree that it's not an exploit, because bethesda intended vampires to be undead, so really necromage makes perfect sense. Maybe they just don't explain it anywhere it the game about vampires being undead or what necromage really does just so you can put the pieces of the puzzle together yourself and if you figure it out then you can unlock the vampires true potential.

Without necromage vampires would only be fun to play for role players who want to be a vampire and struggle with stat reduction and feeding and all the bad things that come with being a vampire, kind of like hardcore mode in FalloutNV, some people are into that kind of thing (more challenging). Also could be good for an Illusionist/sneak character.

The life leech spell is extremely weak and disappointing and the stronger spells are situational at best due to having to get to stage four and have to feed again before returning to town to complete a quest. Waiting around for nightfall or playing with reduced stats in the daytime sounds like a lot of wasted time and effort for someone that needs to complete a bunch of quests and get things done. I don't think being a vampire is for everyone (at least before dawnguard) because it's more trouble than it's worth. Unless your a RP guy like Punz who obviously likes vampires, that's cool and I respect that, I'm sure you would find some entertainment value in that, but I don't see the point of being one if you aren't a real fan of the mystique of being a vampire or don't feel like having the large benefits of necromage. It is a real pain compared to being a werewolf with more trouble than it's worth, and that's my opinion.

However, I do think that it will be much more viable to be a vampire once dawnguard is released, I actually think that one of the reasons bethesda liked the idea of vampire lords is due to they didn't do to much with vampires yet and they could of done more. I think some people can at least agree on that, that they felt a little to similar to oblivion vampires and they had nothing innovative and unique that the werewolves delivered. I will say that werewolves do suck when you get to a certain level and that's what the DLC plans to fix. In the end I believe that vampires and werewolves will probably be nearly equally powerful and cool at high level play and I think that's what the team is shooting for.

 

[Punz]

I'd have to disagree that it's not an exploit, because bethesda intended vampires to be undead, so really necromage makes perfect sense. Maybe they just don't explain it anywhere it the game about vampires being undead or what necromage really does just so you can put the pieces of the puzzle together yourself and if you figure it out then you can unlock the vampires true potential.

Without necromage vampires would only be fun to play for role players who want to be a vampire and struggle with stat reduction and feeding and all the bad things that come with being a vampire, kind of like hardcore mode in FalloutNV, some people are into that kind of thing (more challenging). Also could be good for an Illusionist/sneak character.

The life leech spell is extremely weak and disappointing and the stronger spells are situational at best due to having to get to stage four and have to feed again before returning to town to complete a quest. Waiting around for nightfall or playing with reduced stats in the daytime sounds like a lot of wasted time and effort for someone that needs to complete a bunch of quests and get things done. I don't think being a vampire is for everyone (at least before dawnguard) because it's more trouble than it's worth. Unless your a RP guy like Punz who obviously likes vampires, that's cool and I respect that, I'm sure you would find some entertainment value in that, but I don't see the point of being one if you aren't a real fan of the mystique of being a vampire or don't feel like having the large benefits of necromage. It is a real pain compared to being a werewolf with more trouble than it's worth, and that's my opinion.

However, I do think that it will be much more viable to be a vampire once dawnguard is released, I actually think that one of the reasons bethesda liked the idea of vampire lords is due to they didn't do to much with vampires yet and they could of done more. I think some people can at least agree on that, that they felt a little to similar to oblivion vampires and they had nothing innovative and unique that the werewolves delivered. I will say that werewolves do suck when you get to a certain level and that's what the DLC plans to fix. In the end I believe that vampires and werewolves will probably be nearly equally powerful and cool at high level play and I think that's what the team is shooting for.

Well put! Loved it!

 

[Xarnac]

They should have just had spell creation, then there wouldn't have been any problems.

 

[The Seeker]

They should have just had spell creation, then there wouldn't have been any problems.

yea or buffed the vampires spells slightly, 5pts. of life leach is just awful, especially at high levels, maybe 15/20 pts. at least, would be better for stage 4. I also think that the vampire's servant should not be once a day and should be a unlimited duration thrall for stage 4, maybe once a day if it was a thrall, but still yet. Invisibility, I think that's fine the way it is, its just like it was in oblivion. Ya know what i'm sayin'? If they just tweaked a few little things with the way spells scale, becoming a vampire would be a far less hard decision to make.

None of that will probably matter once dawnguard comes out, having a transformation and perks changes everything.

 

[Dagmar]

I'd have to disagree that it's not an exploit, because bethesda intended vampires to be undead, so really necromage makes perfect sense.

You can disagree but that doesn't change the fact that it's an exploit. Common sense dictates that when one looks at the Restoration skill and perks as a whole they are meant to increase the user's effectiveness in combating the Undead. In that context the point of the Necromage perk is to increase the effect of the Restoration spells that affect the Undead, i.e. Repel and Turning spells, much like the Animage and Kindred Mage perks increase the effect of Illusion spells on targeted enemies. It's quite absurd to believe that a school of magic and perkline largely dedicated to specializing in combating the Undead would entertain making them more powerful. Further, when a perk does something other than what it says, it's an exploit. Spells are not enchantments and this is no different than the Fortify Restoration potion exploit, the Fortify Destruction potion exploit or the Ancient Knowledge exploit. If it's doing something that is clearly beyond the stated effect, it's an exploit.

 

[Xarnac]

Well, Restoration has always been about buffing, just as much as it has been about healing, so "all spells are more effective against dead," isn't really a stretch, since the magic school itself has no morality.

It can only be confirmed an exploit if Beth comes out and admits it was an oversight, or its fixed or addressed in a patch.

 

[The Seeker]

Well, Restoration has always been about buffing, just as much as it has been about healing, so "all spells are more effective against dead," isn't really a stretch, since the magic school itself has no morality.

It can only be confirmed an exploit if Beth came out and admits it was an oversight, or its fixed or addressed in a patch.

People can say what they want about if it was intended to be like that or not, but as far as what I think, Why did bethesda make being a vampire flag the player as undead? why not just a generic hostile flag or something to that degree. It's because bethesda intended the player vampires to be the same as the npc's in the sense that they are "undead" vampires, they are undying. I really don't think that the necromage thing was something that was overlooked, I think it was intentional to give those with the knowledge of vampires being undead the power to make vampires more viable. Why is it that Illusion spells are far more powerful against higher level undead? Because that's how it was intended, because there's more than meets the eye to necromage. It only helps turn undead spells by a modest 25% because any number higher than 25% might be way to overpowered for the necromage vampire benefit. Your absolutely right about the restoration school, it has always been in oblivion about buffing, not just healing, and perhaps necromage is just a little something bethesda implemented because it's a similar concept on how restoration used to be.

 

[Xarnac]

Pretty much, when you contract certain strains of vampirism in ES, you die. In Daggerfall this was even more impactful, as you were literally dead, no one recognized you as your former self, and you were kicked out of any guild, because you were no more.

 

[Necromis]

People can say what they want about if it was intended to be like that or not, but as far as what I think, Why did bethesda make being a vampire flag the player as undead? why not just a generic hostile flag or something to that degree. It's because bethesda intended the player vampires to be the same as the npc's in the sense that they are "undead" vampires, they are undying. I really don't think that the necromage thing was something that was overlooked, I think it was intentional to give those with the knowledge of vampires being undead the power to make vampires more viable. Why is it that Illusion spells are far more powerful against higher level undead? Because that's how it was intended, because there's more than meets the eye to necromage. It only helps turn undead spells by a modest 25% because any number higher than 25% might be way to overpowered for the necromage vampire benefit. Your absolutely right about the restoration school, it has always been in oblivion about buffing, not just healing, and perhaps necromage is just a little something bethesda implemented because it's a similar concept on how restoration used to be.

Um, well maybe because a player/npc vampire are both undead, thus reason for flag, thus a mage using a turn dead spell or some other type of spell geared towards undead would effect the undead player.

 

[Punz]

Pretty much, when you contract certain strains of vampirism in ES, you die. In Daggerfall this was even more impactful, as you were literally dead, no one recognized you as your former self, and you were kicked out of any guild, because you were no more.

Wow! That actually sounds pretty cool. That should've been the Stage 4 effect in Skyrim instead of angry villagers chasing you around. The more starved you are, the more dead you appear. Almost Draugr-like.

 

[Dagmar]

It can only be confirmed an exploit if Beth comes out and admits it was an oversight, or its fixed or addressed in a patch.

Or if you understand English.

...so "all spells are more effective against dead [SIC]," isn't really a stretch...

It really is a stretch, but if you want to butcher the English language to convince yourself otherwise, knock yourself out.

Bethesda never comes out and admits anything is a mistake. With regards to exploits there's no reason for them to do so in a single player game because exploits don't create the fairness issues that they do in an MMO. In general most game developers don't fix exploits in single player games because there's nothing to be gained by them in doing so. All it does is eliminate the appeal of the game to those that like to use them.

People can say what they want about if it was intended to be like that or not, but as far as what I think, Why did bethesda make being a vampire flag the player as undead? why not just a generic hostile flag or something to that degree. It's because bethesda intended the player vampires to be the same as the npc's in the sense that they are "undead" vampires, they are undying

Which is completely irrelevant to it being an exploit. Players that are vampires are supposed to be tagged as Undead. That's not the point. The point is that the effects that are supposed to affect the Undead with the Necromage perk are supposed to be (1) spells, not enchantments, and (2) spells that work against the Undead not for them.

Why is it that Illusion spells are far more powerful against higher level undead? Because that's how it was intended, because there's more than meets the eye to necromage.

Illusion spells don't even affect the Undead without the Master Mind perk. With the perk they benefit from the Necromage perk because the perk is doing exactly what it says it does. They are spells used against the Undead.

 

[Xarnac]

Not really butchering anything, just studying the semantics and yes Beth has admitted mistakes before. It can only be confirmed an exploit if Beth comes out and admits it was an oversight, or its fixed or addressed in a patch. We don't know if it was intended, overlooked, or not and that's what determines if it is an exploit or not. And until the powers that be say otherwise, it is only an opinion either way.

Your dead, your casting something against your own death, it just so happens it's not negative.

Why don't you go ask in some of the Fireside chats on the IL and Beth forums, if it's an overlooked mechanic? The devs may answer that one.

 

[Dagmar]

Not really butchering anything...Your dead, your casting something against your own death, it just so happens its not negative.

Your post is evidence to the contrary.

Perhaps English is your second language so let me clarify, the preposition against always carries a connotation of a negative effect on its object. It's primary definition is "in opposition or hostility to" but even it's secondary and tertiary meanings don't support the notion of a positive effect on its object.

We can discern intent from the description of the effect. If it's doing something other than described that can be used to the player's benefit it's an exploit. That's how we know using the Fortify Restoration potion to break the hardcaps to Fortify Alchemy and Fortify Smithing enchantments is an exploit even though Bethesda has never stated that it's an exploit.

 

[Xarnac]

It's an opinion, until stated otherwise by Beth. Breaking hardcaps is obvious, and beyond a reasonable doubt not an intended implication for the mechanic. It is unknown and inconclusive however if Necromage benefiting Vampires is.

If you cast heal against a vampire, its not going to not heal him because of the word against. And the outcome of something against you is subjective, and could end up being a positive. Then there's the fact that not every unintended outcome is necessarily an exploit. Which is a transitive verb, meaning; to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage. Necromage isn't even over powered when used with a Vamp character. No more powerful than Illusion is by itself anyway. Then there's the other fact that vampires are some of the most powerful beings in ES, so even if necromage did OP someone, it wouldn't be out of the realm of lore.

Whether it is, or isn't an exploit is an opinion.

I think it's funny your getting so animated about it, since I haven't even given my opinion on whether I think it's an exploit or not.