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imaginepageant

Slytherin Alumni
I've always wondered about the story behind Ralof and Hadvar's relationship.

They obviously know each other, as they refer to each other by name in Unbound—but how do they know each other? They are apparently both from Riverwood, so I suppose that could be the easy (and boring) answer. But the storyteller in me wants there to be more! Are they related? Were they friends before the war? Was there a big falling out between them when when they chose different sides? Was there a love triangle between them and the girl from Helgen? Why, exactly, does Hadvar call Ralof a traitor?

What do you guys think? Any theories?
 
I'm gonna say they probably had a sort of friendship/rivalry starting at a young age. They were the kind of friends who were always trying to one-up the other and chased the same girls, which I would put money on making them very close to one another. When the war started they probably chose thier respective sides, thinking that the other would think the same way, and both were upset and angry with the other when they found out the truth. At that point they probably had a fist fight. Driven men like them tend to do such things in situations like that :p

Then I'm guessing they went thier seperate ways feeling bitter and betrayed by thier best friend. It's a shame lol ;)
 

perkecet

Active Member
hadvar calls ralof a traitor for being a stormcloak obviously. although im sure there is more to it than that. remember that pretty much all the important stormcloaks were imperial soldiers at one point. i would assume most are but theres no proof to that. im sure some were common men who took up arms, but ulfric and his main group were all in the empire's army during the great war.
 

Necromis

Well-Known Member
Well one thing I can answer for you is they are not brothers. As you go to each of their families home's when you end up in riverwood. I think maybe talking to the families of each might gleam you a little more information regarding their relationship. Just assume they are/were friends that had different views on loyalty and took different paths because of that loyalty and broke the friendship. Look at America's civil war, friends and brothers killing each other.
 

Pete

Well-Known Member
Since were talking about the opening relationships, I learned a little from Ulfric. He says 'there will be no more of that shady stuff that got you caught' or words to that effect.

I suppose its the sneaking across the boarder... but it just leaves me hanging.
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
I've always wondered about the story behind Ralof and Hadvar's relationship.

They obviously know each other, as they refer to each other by name in Unbound—but how do they know each other? They are apparently both from Riverwood, so I suppose that could be the easy (and boring) answer. But the storyteller in me wants there to be more! Are they related? Were they friends before the war? Was there a big falling out between them when when they chose different sides? Was there a love triangle between them and the girl from Helgen? Why, exactly, does Hadvar call Ralof a traitor?

What do you guys think? Any theories?

They're both from Riverwood, which is a small town (even adjusting for gameplay and story segregation, it probably has at most 500-1000 people), and appear to be around the same age. It's highly possible they were playmates, friends, sparring partners, etc. Even if not, it's the sort of place where everyone knows everyone else.

Why Hadvar calls Ralof a traitor is pretty obvious: Ralof is a traitor to the Empire, which Hadvar, being an Imperial soldier, obviously has taken an oath of loyalty to. It's also possible that Ralof was at one point an Imperial soldier himself, but defected because he took Ulfric's side when the uprising came about (when you go to Korvanjund with the Stormcloaks, Galmar says "I know some of you are ex-Legion and may know men on the other side", and - provided you followed him - Ralof is in this party).
 

perkecet

Active Member
^ yeah galmar's comment there is most likely under-talking that aspect. id wager that at least 50% of the stormcloak soldiers were in the legion. Nords have always been a big part of the empire's military. so much so that i really would just assume ralof was in the imperial army.
 

imaginepageant

Slytherin Alumni
They're both from Riverwood, which is a small town (even adjusting for gameplay and story segregation, it probably has at most 500-1000 people)

A thousand people in Riverwood?! There are exactly fifteen: Delphine, Orgnar, Alvor, Sigrid, Dorthe, Gerdur, Hod, Frodnar, Sven, Hilde, Faendal, Lucan, Camilla, and Embry. I suppose sixteen if you count Ralof.

It's also possible that Ralof was at one point an Imperial soldier himself, but defected because he took Ulfric's side when the uprising came about (when you go to Korvanjund with the Stormcloaks, Galmar says "I know some of you are ex-Legion and may know men on the other side", and - provided you followed him - Ralof is in this party).

Ooh, I'd never considered that. I had always assumed it was simply just that he supported the Stormcloaks, but defecting from the Legion to do so is much more interesting!

If in doubt, make something up. =)

I certainly will be in my fanfic! Since the untold story of these two has always intrigued me, I can't not explore it in writing!
 

MushroomGenius

Jarl of Fungi, Great Khal of the Mushraki
A thousand people in Riverwood?! There are exactly fifteen: Delphine, Orgnar, Alvor, Sigrid, Dorthe, Gerdur, Hod, Frodnar, Sven, Hilde, Faendal, Lucan, Camilla, and Embry. I suppose sixteen if you count Ralof.

You don't really also think that the entire Stormcloak army is made up of like 50 people too do you?

I'm pretty sure the cities/towns aren't truly made to scale, but because of technological limitations, they can't be as grand as the developers truly want. If this were so, there's only maybe what, 700 people in ALL of Skyrim?
 

imaginepageant

Slytherin Alumni
I'm pretty sure the cities/towns aren't truly made to scale, but because of technological limitations, they can't be as grand as the developers truly want. If this were so, there's only maybe what, 700 people in ALL of Skyrim?

Yes, it would be unrealistic to expect a game to have tens of thousands of NPCs in it, and it would also be unrealistic to think that villages in Skyrim would have as little as fifteen people living in it—that would lead to an awful lot of inbreeding. However, I can't look at a place like Riverwood with fifteen literal residents, and pretend that its population is actually closer to a thousand. I would inflate Riverwood to a hundred at most. Bigger cities, like Solitude—which has about eighty named residents, plus unnamed city guards and East Empire workers—I could see at five hundred. But that's just me.
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
The number of buildings in in-game Riverwood is appropriate for a hamlet of 15 or so people. But a "real" Riverwood would have more buildings than that. Everything is scaled down - populations, city sizes, the world map. About the only thing that isn't scaled accordingly is the in-game time, and that's most likely because (1) they don't want the day/night cycle to be too rapid, and (2) combat is more or less in real time, and they don't want that to take up too much in-game time. Though I'll freely admit that 500-1000 is more or less my upper limit for Riverwood's "real" size. I see it being more like 300-600.

Also, consider that if this were representative, the ratio of guards to citizens in pretty much any town is far, far too high. As implied here, a medieval town or city with typical to somewhat more-than-typical law enforcement should have about 100-150 non-guards for every 1 guard, and keep in mind that each in-game guard is probably "really" at least 2 guards, since there would be at least 2 shifts of guards if not more. The number of in-game guards multiplied by about 200 would be pretty much the absolute minimum number of citizens "actually" in each city (and probably more, since the cities are scaled down and a larger city would mean more guards).

On the other hand, many of these would be children or unnamed menial workers of little relevance to adventurers - the scaling seems to be more geared towards the player (so emphasizes merchants, prominent families, and quest-givers/quest targets, with a few extra people added for flavor).
 

Pete

Well-Known Member
...I'm pretty sure the cities/towns aren't truly made to scale, but because of technological limitations, they can't be as grand as the developers truly want. If this were so, there's only maybe what, 700 people in ALL of Skyrim?

PC VERSION: I have a mod called crowded cities. There's a definite CPU hit when you first enter larger towns, so I'm sure your right about that.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
It is quite interesting to think about the relationship of Hadvar and Ralof. I've likely got a slightly different feeling for and perspective on Hadvar since I fight on the Imperial side, but their dialogue at the start did intrigue me as to what their past entailed.

I have to agree that we're likely dealing with a situation not unlike the American Civil War, in which old friends, former schoolmates who attended the same military academies were pitted against each other. One of my favorite movies, Gettysburg - which was based on one of my favorite books ever, The Killer Angels - really drove this point home with the relationship of General Hancock (Union) and General Armistead (Confederate). Shortly before the last engagement of the three day battle, Hancock looks out toward the Confederate side and says, "There isn't an officer on either side who hasn't known someone wearing the other uniform." That, for me, is pitch-perfect commentary on the somewhat tragic situation with the Skyrim civil conflict.

It is something I am planning to explore in my own upcoming story as well. As a sidenote, I've always felt like Hadvar should have been marriageable (without mods), because of all that you go through together in the war. Same for Ralof for you Stormcloaks. ;) I know I certainly would have married Hadvar at some point in time.
 

imaginepageant

Slytherin Alumni
"There isn't an officer on either side who hasn't known someone wearing the other uniform."

Oh, I love that. I might have to steal it for my story... let's call it an homage to the real-life Civil War. (Which I don't know much about, being Canadian, oops.)

As a sidenote, I've always felt like Hadvar should have been marriageable (without mods), because of all that you go through together in the war. Same for Ralof for you Stormcloaks. ;) I know I certainly would have married Hadvar at some point in time.

Yes! I would totally have married Ralof if it were possible. Or preferrably, Ulfric. Heck, I would've even taken Galmar Stone-Fist.
 

Robby

Member
That is actually a hard question! But I do not know, nor can I possibly think that they're related? They might have knows each other since their childhood, who knows? That is a question we have to think of more! :)
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
It is something I am planning to explore in my own upcoming story as well. As a sidenote, I've always felt like Hadvar should have been marriageable (without mods), because of all that you go through together in the war. Same for Ralof for you Stormcloaks. ;) I know I certainly would have married Hadvar at some point in time.

At the very least, I think Ralof/Hadvar should have been made a potential follower (and yes, why not marriage partner?) after the civil war questline is over.
 

Neriad13

Premium Member
I thought I was the only one who wanted to marry Hadvar. 0.0 But, yeah, after my character fought in the civil war, she felt very, very lonely and other potential spouses just weren't doing anything for her. None of them had been through the horrors of war with her.
 

imaginepageant

Slytherin Alumni
I... never really liked Hadvar, to be honest. The whole "Stay close to me if you want to survive" thing rubs me the wrong way. I can take care of myself, thank you. Ralof, on the other hand, is just all, "Go on ahead, we'll catch up!" I like that. Makes me feel competant instead of like a damsel in distress.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
I thought I was the only one who wanted to marry Hadvar. 0.0 But, yeah, after my character fought in the civil war, she felt very, very lonely and other potential spouses just weren't doing anything for her. None of them had been through the horrors of war with her.

That's exactly how I felt/feel! In the movie-in-my-head that Skyrim is for me, Hadvar seems like the one you would most naturally have eventually settled down with. Or at least remained very close to. Given all that happened, he knows what you've seen in the conflict. He knows the horrors of war, you faced them side by side. I still feel like there are sparks of great chemistry, if you will, whenever you catch up with Hadvar, particularly after the war. When I run into him in Riverwood and things are calming down, there's a very genuine friendliness, a warmth of familiarity that you don't get with many other characters. I'd marry Hadvar. I'd marry Hadvar twice. ;)

"Dragonborn, huh? Was it your ma or your pa that was the dragon?" I <3 Hadvar.
 

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