[Official] Skyrim/Elder Scrolls Debate Thread

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Janus3003

Skyrim Marriage Counselor
The newest nord vampire woman, Serana. Man shes a hottie!
I prefer Ingjard.
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Her eyes are beautiful :)
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Ah, but MY analysis is restricted to Imperial men. ;) I could not care less about Imperial and/or Nord women. Or any race's women for that matter.

Imperial men = PERFECTION
I've been told by a few people that my Imperial Dragonborn's hot.
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It's not really justice. It's revenge, and it's short-sighted. The crimes Paarthurnax commited were done literally ages ago, long outside mortal living memory. Yes, he did horrible things, and very likely deserves to die for them, but not a single one of the people clamoring for his death has any relation to those crimes other than reading about them in an obscure history book. Esbern and Delphine's outrage rings kinda false when you consider this:

Over virtually the entirety of Skyrim's recorded history, Paarthurnax has forgone his urges and remained atop the Throat of the World, peacefully guiding an order of non-interventionist monks and keeping watch against the eventuality of Alduin's return. One could consider it to be imprisonment for his crimes, even if it was self-inflicted. He not only turned against Alduin, but was the only reason the mortals won, either time. Kynareth and Akatosh may be responsible for gifting the Thu'um to mortals and creating the Dragonborn, but Paarthurnax was the first one to teach them how to access and use that power against the dragons. When you've never been victimized by him or even met anyone who has, killing him over ancient reports smacks of ingratitude.

Then there's the fact that Paarthurnax's conviction in the Way of the Voice can hardly be questioned. He's followed it for thousands of years. After Alduin's defeat, he tries to spread this philosophy among other dragons. Even if he's not universally successful (as Odahving predicts), any dragon that does convert is one less that's gonna be ravaging the countryside. Let him achieve his Ambition in becoming a Cruel Overlord by forcing dragons to deny their inborn natures to dominate and destroy.

And, as one last point to consider, 99 percent of the Dragonborns that are presented with this choice are hardly innocent, noble, pure heroes of righeousness themselves. Especially if they've done some of the Daedric quests.
The Blades are Dragon Slayers, that's what they do (in theory, anyway.) If Chuck Wittfield got his brain fixed by something more surgical than a policeman's bullet, he'd still be guilty of mass murder, and he'd have an Insanity defense. Paarthurnax is still a potential Genocidal enslaver, even confesses this, and makes no effort to talk you out of it. I'm not saying it's moral, but certainly not amoral to kill him.

Justice, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Executions, and Imprisonment doesn't bring victims back, but are still parts of the justice Systems. Nothing Paarthurnax does now, in the 4th era changes what he did, and was in the 1st-2nd. He's still guilty of Genocide. Sanity after the fact is not a viable defense.
 

BigBad

Person of Interest
The Blades -aren't- dragon slayers. They want to be, but they haven't been dragon slayers for eons. They are -descended- from dragon slayers, but the Blades as they existed for most of recent history have been secret agents, spies, and bodyguards for the Emperor. They are wannabes in the dragon slaying business, and they kinda treat the only true-blue dragonslayer they've met (i.e. you) like crap.
 
The Blades -aren't- dragon slayers. They want to be, but they haven't been dragon slayers for eons. They are -descended- from dragon slayers, but the Blades as they existed for most of recent history have been secret agents, spies, and bodyguards for the Emperor. They are wannabes in the dragon slaying business, and they kinda treat the only true-blue dragonslayer they've met (i.e. you) like crap.
Which is why I lampshaded it with "In theory, anyway." My point was, that's their Morals, the only good Dragon is a dead one. Morality is subjective, and nice as he is, Paarthurnax does have blood on his claws. That doesn't just was off with Community Service.

Incidentally, thank you, Mr. Self Destruct, for such a fine subject for debate. I only killed Paarthy once, to see what would happen. I like him, and he's handy for Meditation. One of the biggest skills for debators is arguing the opposite side to their own beliefs. That, and I've been sitting out Teh Hottest Hottie in Skyrim pagant because my tastes are probably incomprehensible to the vast majority of posters. For instance, I loved Delphine until i found out what a C-unit she was.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Dagmar If you're gonna post a picture of Lydia at least pick out a good one. IMO the one that you posted looks like crap, and apparently someone had way too much fun on Photoshop.
Riiiiight. You post Ingun with a modded skin mesh and then randomly decide that posting a modded pic of Lydia is a crime.

I would say in your mind I guess every professionally shot photo of a person must look like crap including all the photos of models in ads and photo shoots, but your thought process is so incoherent, random and inconsistent that it's anyone's guess. :rolleyes:
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Riiiiight. You post Ingun with a modded skin mesh and then randomly decide that posting a modded pic of Lydia is a crime.

I would say in your mind I guess every professionally shot photo of a person must look like crap including all the photos of models in ads and photo shoots, but your thought process is so incoherent, random and inconsistent that it's anyone's guess. :rolleyes:

I must've touched a nerve with you since you're getting all defensive. Not sure if you were the one that did the alterations, which explains why you're on defensive mod, but still. The photo that you posted up doesn't look like Lydia. It looks like a different woman.

And just because I happen to not like the photo that you posted up doesn't mean that I don't appreciate professionally taken photos of people that includes photos of models in ads.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Paarthurnax was a mass murderer who enslaved entire races, before he reformed. He even admits it, if you follow the proper dialog options. As well as the fact that he could return to his Nature at any time, especially now that Big Bad Al is gone, and he's the last remaining son of Akatosh. But other than that, you're right, there's be no justice in killing him.

Paarthurnax also taught the humans the way of the voice so they could rise up against the dovah. The Blades want revenge on the dragon that pretty much saved humanity from a life of oppression and despair. When confronted, his words are actually very wise and worth contemplating over. "What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil through great effort.?"

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Paarthurnax also taught the humans the way of the voice so they could rise up against the dovah. The Blades want revenge on the dragon that pretty much saved humanity from a life of oppression and despair. When confronted, his words are actually very wise and worth contemplating over. "What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil through great effort.?"
Right, that point has been made. He didn't, however, teach them Dragonrend, which is the shout that was actually used to defeat his brother back then. Nor did he provide the Scroll to send Him through time. How does what is effectively Community Service justify Genocide, and mass enslavement? By that reasoning, if Mengele had just agreed to clean up Auswitz, and make a memorial garden, it would all have been just fine, right?
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Psiberzerker If you listen to what Paarthurnax says at the time every dovah was on the side of Alduin. They had no other choice to side with him on his decisions base on how strong his tongue was. He was like the ruler of the dragons, a King of all. Paarthurnax had a change of heart and sided with the humans thus teaching them the way of the voice to fight equal against the dragons. After the Dragonborn killed (supposedly killed that matter) Alduin Paarthurnax became the new leader and king of the dovah. He strives to convince other dragons to meditate, and to be peaceful like him.

You must wonder why the blades fail to want the Dragonborn to kill Odahviing, since he was Alduins right hand dragons before being concurred by the dragonborn.
 
Ah, he was "Just following orders..." You said it yourself, he was seccond only to Alduin during the whole kill all humans days. Of course he had a choice, otherwise he wouldn't have been so highly ranked. Look up what Paarthurnax actually means. He was Born Evil, he may have reformed, but he's still a mass murderer.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
What about King Olaf? That's something worth debating I think.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Right, that point has been made. He didn't, however, teach them Dragonrend, which is the shout that was actually used to defeat his brother back then. Nor did he provide the Scroll to send Him through time. How does what is effectively Community Service justify Genocide, and mass enslavement? By that reasoning, if Mengele had just agreed to clean up Auswitz, and make a memorial garden, it would all have been just fine, right?

The only way man could have enough knowledge on the subject of the Thu'um to create Dragonrend was because of Paarthurnax. Nobody can simply learn Dragonrend, they needed to have some knowledge of the Voice first. Which Paarthurnax taught them.

Killing him isn't justice, its blind revenge. If Mengele sided with Jewish freedom fighters and lead a successful uprising against Nazi Germany, I'd say he'd have earned his pardon.

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Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Ah, he was "Just following orders..." You said it yourself, he was seccond only to Alduin during the whole kill all humans days. Of course he had a choice, otherwise he wouldn't have been so highly ranked. Look up what Paarthurnax actually means. He was Born Evil, he may have reformed, but he's still a mass murderer.

He's taught Tiber Septim the path to a clear understanding of the voice, to use it as a tool of peace and mercy. He teaches the Dovahkiin the same. If he really was still harboring malicious and cruel feelings, why would he isolate himself to the tallest mountain in Tamriel and devote his remaining days to teaching the values of meditation and morality?

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The only way man could have enough knowledge on the subject of the Thu'um to create Dragonrend was because of Paarthurnax. Nobody can simply learn Dragonrend, they needed to have some knowledge of the Voice first. Which Paarthurnax taught them.

Killing him isn't justice, its blind revenge. If Mengele sided with Jewish freedom fighters and lead a successful uprising against Nazi Germany, I'd say he'd have earned his pardon.
I don't think you know much about Justice, nor Mengele to say that. He arranged mass rape, and tortured twins for fun. He's not like Schindler. It's real easy to say you've reformed, and made amends, but some crimes cannot be redeemed. I'm as forgiving as the next guyl, but you don't just let a Child Molestor open up a daycare, or eugenic torturer run a clinic because they say they got better. Likewise, Paarthy struggles with his baser urges daily. He's always tempted to return to the old ways, even after centuries of playing the good guy. Even if you don't beleive in Justice for those he enslaved, murdered, and devouered, you're far too trusting that he never will again.
 
He's taught Tiber Septim the path to a clear understanding of the voice, to use it as a tool of peace and mercy. He teaches the Dovahkiin the same. If he really was still harboring malicious and cruel feelings, why would he isolate himself to the tallest mountain in Tamriel and devote his remaining days to teaching the values of meditation and morality?

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I don't remember anything about Paarthurnax even meeting Talos ever. I could ask Dagmar, but otherwise, [Citation needed.]
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
I don't think you know much about Justice, nor Mengele to say that. He arranged mass rape, and tortured twins for fun. He's not like Schindler. It's real easy to say you've reformed, and made amends, but some crimes cannot be redeemed. I'm as forgiving as the next guyl, but you don't just let a Child Molestor open up a daycare, or eugenic torturer run a clinic because they say they got better. Likewise, Paarthy struggles with his baser urges daily. He's always tempted to return to the old ways, even after centuries of playing the good guy. Even if you don't beleive in Justice for those he enslaved, murdered, and devouered, you're far too trusting that he never will again.

Who Mengele is hardly matters, all that was implied by you was that he was a Nazi. Justice isn't killing people to show killing is wrong, mercy and compassion are far more important than justice or revenge. Also, saying Paarthurnax committed the same crimes is you assuming things. All that's stated is that he helped Alduin. It's been thousands of years since the Dragon Wars, and Paarthurnax has never left the summit of the mountain. He's stayed true to his way, he's reformed, and has devoted his life to peace, and finally defeating Alduin once and for all. After guiding the Dovahkiin through this path, he returns to Akavir.


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