Just a question or few (Illusionists Welcome)

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Nexus

New Member
I have a question when it comes to using Illusion spells at higher levels. Particularly Frenzy, I was wondering what the effective level cap for it is. I tried researching it but a lot of threads and message boards date to the month when the game came out, so quite a bit of the info is inaccurate.

I realize the base level effectiveness for Frenzy is up to 14. But with all perks in Illusion maxed out, without potions or vampirism, what would be the duration and level limit of Frenzy single cast and dual cast? I can't test it out myself as I don't have the game, and the places I researched can't seem to agree whether the dual cast bonus is factored after perks, the order of bonuses, and so on. Some say it's not very useful, and others say Frenzy should work on every non-resisting or special targets in the game under these conditions. I've went through so many sites and incomplete charts, which is why I'm coming here for answers.

Also, just an option if any wants to elaborate from personal experience:

What do you think of Illusion spells, their practicality, and worth when your character is at a high level, or mid-game onward?

P.S. I'm new here and wasn't sure where to post this as I couldn't find a Q&A board. Skyrim Help seemed for more technical problems, so I came here hoping this section was appropriate. If This belongs on a different board, please tell me. Thanks in advance. :)
 

Professor Skalvar

General of the Euphoric Gentleman's Club
Without vampirism or potions, the maximum level would be 50 for people and 48 for animals, which covers basically everything you can face. The Illusion Dual casting perk would allow Illusion spells to affect targets by twice the spell's level cap. In this case, I'm assuming the base level is doubled. So it affects anything that's level 28 or under. The Rage perk affects enemies up to 12 levels higher than the spell's usual limit. So that's any creature level 40 or under. Then we have Kindred Mage, which adds the limit(for people) by 10. Animage adds the limit(for creatures) by 8. That's how I calculated the maximum values.

I personally believe Illusion is extremely useful, especially when the skill level is high. I've used Calm a number of times to get past enemies that I believed would have killed me in a second. I've used Frenzy to lower the numbers of a group of bandits several times. Fear can be extremely useful to kill stronger enemies. Granted that you would have to catch up with them in order to do so, but it's very effective. Unlike a Calm spell, a target won't resort to attacking once hit.

I hope this helps.
 

Professor Skalvar

General of the Euphoric Gentleman's Club
and when you get invisibility, you can basically sneak kill everything.
Not necessarily. If you want to accomplish that, you'd have to level Sneak up to level 50 and get the Assassin's Blade perk, which increases a dagger's sneak attack damage by 15 times. Throw in some Dark Brotherhood gloves and you have 30 times the sneak attack damage. Dual wield daggers and power attack with both, that should increase it up to 120 times. That would basically sneak kill everything.
 

Gyllenhall

Member
i dont think sneak attack works like that, i have tested it with dual weild and have noticed the first hit is x30 and the rest are normal.
 

Professor Skalvar

General of the Euphoric Gentleman's Club
It may have been that my sneak level was very high, but I was able to kill Morokei in a few seconds just by doing that.
 

Gyllenhall

Member
wow, i currently have lvl 98 sneak so i might try dual weilding, i have noticed my razor doesnt 1 hit things anymore (usually takes 2 sneak attacks to kill larger mobs).
 

Professor Skalvar

General of the Euphoric Gentleman's Club
I suggest taking the Dual Flurry and Dual Savagery perks for maximum efficiency.
 

Nexus

New Member
Thanks for the replies everyone! ProfCheslieFarnsworthIII, you said it will affect almost everyone. Does that mean it will affect everyone besides bosses, special creatures, and Illusion-resisting ones? Some enemies scale above 50, no? (I am aware of the soft cap on player level.)
 

MushroomGenius

Jarl of Fungi, Great Khal of the Mushraki
Thanks for the replies everyone! ProfCheslieFarnsworthIII, you said it will affect almost everyone. Does that mean it will affect everyone besides bosses, special creatures, and Illusion-resisting ones? Some enemies scale above 50, no? (I am aware of the soft cap on player level.)

For certain, you can't make guards fight other guards.

I also tried to get Grelod the Kind to attack her children, and having them kill her in self-defense (since they're kids and can't be killed), but that didn't work. She just came after me, she didn't attack the other woman in the Orphanage either.
 

Nexus

New Member
For certain, you can't make guards fight other guards.

I also tried to get Grelod the Kind to attack her children, and having them kill her in self-defense (since they're kids and can't be killed), but that didn't work. She just came after me, she didn't attack the other woman in the Orphanage either.

Haha, how entertaining you sociopathic fellow.:p

So this means the adept spell Frenzy, with all the perks and dual cast, is useful through the entire game?
 

MushroomGenius

Jarl of Fungi, Great Khal of the Mushraki
Haha, how entertaining you sociopathic fellow.:p

So this means the adept spell Frenzy, with all the perks and dual cast, is useful through the entire game?

LOL.. i do use Grelod as a Dead Thrall follower now, she goes wherever I go. I even took her back to Aventus Arentino's home in Windhelm hoping to get a reaction out of him, but sadly, Bethesda didn't script for something as odd as bringing her all the way back to Windhelm. Grelod is kinda problematic as a Dead Thrall because she's ridiculously weak. She dies from a single hit of anything. I even used telekinesis to launch a goblet at her and she died in the Orphanage.

I can't speak for the "entire game", but Frenzy is useful as high as level 50, about where I am currently. I have perks invested in both sides of the Illusion tree. I'm pretty sure there will always be some enemies that are just immune to certain spells like Calm, Fear, and Frenzy. I don't think you can make a Dragon Priest or a Dragon flee from you in terror, though admittedly, I've never tried.
 

MushroomGenius

Jarl of Fungi, Great Khal of the Mushraki
i am really looking forward to a full on magic build after reading threads like these

There's a lot of satisfaction in melee combat through the cutscene animations, but I always end up playing my Pure Mage character. I just have so much more fun with it. I can only chop, stab, poke, and smash things so many times before it gets boring (Archery included).

With magic, for me anyway, you can get more creative and strategic, especially when it involves multiple followers (follower + dog) and a couple of summons/thralls. With a full party like that, it gets pretty entertaining to see them dominate a room. I stopped using Dremora Lords because they were way OPed, especially with Twin Souls. Arniel's Shade falls into this category too.

I still have to go grab the Flaming Familiar spell tome and try that out in conjunction with Invisibility/Muffle. Would be cool to send a flaming & exploding wolf into battle over and over while remaining undetected. :D

With Destruction maxed at 100, I've tried to steer away from using Destruction magic at all now. I primarily use Alteration/Restoration (to keep myself alive), Illusion, and Conjuration.
 

Nexus

New Member
@MushroomGenius

Amazing post, I looked through several builds and while some magic oriented setups may not be the most practical, they're certainly more fun and interesting. It seems one would get bored killing enemies from a distance or bashing in heads and enchanting, however magic offers much different play styles and effects, with varying AoEs, crowd control spells, manipulation, and so on. I agree that it has more potential for creativity and strategy in theory.

And one (perhaps) last question regarding Illusion, the perk "Kindred Mage" says it will allow spells to be cast on higher level people. Does that literally mean just humans, and the level increase won't apply to say, trolls, undead, or daedra? They're not people, technically.

If that is the case, with only Illusion perks, "Rage" will add 12 levels to Frenzy allowing for a up to level 48 dual cast on non-animal targets. But if people is just a synonym for anything (but) animals, then it would be +12 from "Rage" and +10 from "Kindred Mage," allowing for a total of up to level 72 on a dual cast to most opponents whom aren't specifically humans.

On some message boards I see people complaining about their spells only affecting up to level 46, and other claiming theirs work over 51, without accounting for any variables such as vampirism or potions or stating exactly which spell they're referring to.

Clarification?
 

MushroomGenius

Jarl of Fungi, Great Khal of the Mushraki
"Kindred Mage" is just a bonus to People. The same way that "Animage" only affects animals.

I believe Trolls would fall under the "Animage" category, Undead/Daedra/Automatons would fall under "Master of the Mind".

(Edit: according to the UESP Wiki, a Troll is considered a "Monster". Not sure what category they fall into for the Illusion tree. Other monsters are: Charus, Falmer, Dragons, Spiders, Giants, Hagravens, Wraiths, Anomalies, Spriggans, Werewolves, and Wisps)

All types are affected by the middle tree Hypnotic Gaze, Aspect of Terror, Rage. So to max out the effectiveness of the Illusion School, you'd end up with all of the perks in the middle and right side along with Illusion Dual Casting (I haven't picked this up yet).

I don't really know how to tell the exact level of an enemy since I'm on the 360, so I couldn't tell you with 100% certainty whether a particular mob is over a certain level or not. I never really bothered doing the math behind the School's effectiveness, I just played with it and enjoyed the results.

I'll check later tonight if I can get some Draugr Deathlords to fight each other or at least take out some of the lesser Draugr.
 

Professor Skalvar

General of the Euphoric Gentleman's Club
I still have to go grab the Flaming Familiar spell tome and try that out in conjunction with Invisibility/Muffle. Would be cool to send a flaming & exploding wolf into battle over and over while remaining undetected. :D

If you want to try an amusing way to kill, I suggest using the Flame Cloak spell in conjunction with Invisibility/Muffle. Somebody on here thought about it, which lead me to test it out and see what the outcome would be. More times than not, the target won't move. There was only one time where I was accidentally bumped into, causing me to be detected. So it's pretty effective to say the least. If you go in 3rd person view to see how it looks, it's pretty damn epic.
 

Sparkz

Mysterious Creature
I dont Mean to take focus away from Nexus Question but i got a question myself about this school.Since my chars a vampire how would that 25% illusion Bonus effect the schools spells with or without perks.?

http://skyrimcalculator.com/#98643 perks i would choose from this school.
 

Teritus

Giving it to you straight since 1869
One other thing. Does it make a difference, the level cap, if you use Mayhem instead of Frenzy?
 

Gyllenhall

Member
isnt the level for mayhem 25 without buffs from illusion tree? i assume it would be weaker then frenzy because you can't duel cast it.
 

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