In My Time of Need: Kematu or Saadia? (possible spoilers)

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XunAmarox

New Member
Surprisingly, I've had Skyrim since release and I've just avoided this quest until last night on a new playthrough.

For me, it came down to comparing their scenarios.

1. Many noble families that felt betrayed decided to hire many of their own mercenaries to hunt down a traitor in a foreign land.

2. The Thalmor, an extremely racist xenophile bunch, decided to hire a bunch of foreign non-Altmer mercenaries to hunt for someone in a foreign land which they already have full access to and can abduct anyone at any time and no Jarl nor Imperial General will do anything about it due to the White-Gold Concordat.

For #2, we also have to consider that someone in the very same town was already abducted by the Thalmor, and we've also seen how the Thalmor operate. We also know, having seen the slaughter at the Shrine of Talos near Helgen and the letter on the dead Thalmor agent that the Thalmor don't have the kind of resources that would be required to chase false leads on a massive scale with practically a whole battalion of mercenaries.

I also had to consider that if I turned her in that the Alik'r would go away, whereas if I just killed their leader I might still run into them throughout Skyrim still looking for her.

Saadia already gave me a bad impression right away. Even within the first few seconds of talking to her, she'd already threatened my life and lied to me multiple times. She also looked pretty beat up to be a noblewoman.

As for the cave... that was a non-issue. Prior to even talking to the Alik'r prisoner my screen flashed with Tales of Lycanthropy informing me that it was a full moon tonight. To put this into perspective: I'm level one, and a fully perked out Werewolf - I never open the leveling menu in human form to avoid leveling. So in short, I can pretty much annihilate everyone when I turn. Eight guys wearing clothes instead of armor, curved blades or not, wouldn't exactly be an issue.

I actually kinda regretted not slaughtering them all afterwords. I'd planned on slaughtering everything in there. I was playing it like... "I'd be walking into my death, huh? heh heh heh... not tonight."

The advantage to choosing Saadia would be able to stay at her Inn any time I want. Given that I was a werewolf and wouldn't get a rested bonus, it seemed a little worthless to me. But, choosing the Alik'r I can make those annoying douchebags go away.

Anyways, I went with Kematu's story for the above reasons. It just seems the more logical of the two stories.

As for the Alik'r hiring bandits... Well, they're mercenaries. Not exactly the most reputable job in the world. They're paid money to accomplish a task, it's just business. And as for the bandits? Well, they were just conducting a business transaction. I don't hold the ones doing the hiring accountable for the actions of the ones they hired. They're mercenaries, not soldiers. They were given a task, not orders.
 

Saozig

Hippy
I don't overthink this one--I always side with Saadia. Why? Because Kematu's too good of an opponent to pass up on fighting and I ain't no snitch.

OK, except for that time I reported Cicero to the Pale Guard just see what would happen....
 

Jamirus

Eater of random alchemy ingredients
I absolutely hate Cicero. Reported him first thing i saw him...

It's just that voice! It's so annoying.
 

Cazimir

Member
I don't know if it's a bug or not, but I sided with Saadia this last time and it resulted in two Redguard soldiers permanently stationed at Whiterun's gates. It's really annoying to have them there all the time. But also kind of amusing. Regardless of killing Kematu, Saadia is still basically trapped within Whiterun.
 

FamiliarYokudan

New Member
But the developers ignored this when they designed this quest. For the purposes of this quest, Hammerfell is still as it was circa 4E 175 not 4E 201. This is why Kematu refers to the Redguard resistance being alive and well in Hammerfell. For the purposes of this quest that statement makes no sense at all if it were otherwise because the resistance hasn't existed for over 20 years.

If you don't accept this then Kematu is clearly lying and you've roleplayed your character as an ignorant, uneducated, easily guiled fool. Saadia is in her twenties to early thirties in age. The fall of Taneth to the Aldmeri Dominion for which Kematu accuses Saadia of colluding with the Thalmor occured around 25 years ago. The notion that Saadia would have played any kind of willing role in assisting the Thalmor as an infant or a toddler is ludicrous and yet your character has just bought into the absurd notion which was relayed to you by a paid-for-hire mercenary who employs criminals (bandits) that are responsible for robbing and murdering innocents on the roadways of Skyrim and whose fellow mercenaries harass every Redguard woman in Skyrim to the point of illegally kidnapping them and are condescending and completely unapologetic to the same women after they realize they're totally wrong.

You're much better off accepting the fact that the developers f***fed up regarding the lore, suspending adherence to it for this quest, and accepting that for the purposes of this quest you've temporarily stepped into an alternate reality Tamriel where Hammerfell is as it was circa 4E 175 even if it means you have no compelling reason to believe either Saadia or Kematu's version of events.

I apologize for being a grave digger here, and feel free to not respond, but there are a couple points I've seen in your argument that I'd like to attempt to refute.

Resistance: At multiple points you have mentioned that it was lore conflicting for there to be a "resistance" in Hammerfell, as the Great War had ended some twenty five years prior. Has it occurred to you that Kematu's mention of a resistance towards the Aldmeri Dominion is in fact referring to Hammerfell's active resistance against the Dominion? Though the Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed, the Redguards as a now united people would undoubtedly not have the highest view of the Dominion, and though the open war has ended, it is not impossible to believe that Hammerfell has similar plans to that of the Empire against the Dominion. In that sense, the resistance of Hammerfell makes perfect sense. As the definition of resistance is to "exert force in opposition", and noting the bad blood between Hammerfell and the Dominion, it is not difficult to imagine that this was his meaning for the words.

Mercenaries, lacking honor: Alright, this hurt a bit. Barring the fact that the Redguards of Hammerfell prize are a people that prize honor, dignity, and tradition above all else (The ones from Hammerfell specifically, outlanders tend to be less so.), the warriors of the Alik'r are far from untrustworthy cutthroats. As the most traditional of the traditionalists, being nomads of the Alik'r desert, it is difficult to believe that ones that so deftly follow tradition would dare work for the Aldmeri dominion. These are literally one of the few groups that hate the Aldmeri more than the Crowns, and that takes effort. It is not difficult to believe that, considering their known hardiness and survivalist abilities stemming from their nomadic nature, the warriors would be hired as mercenaries by Hammerfell nobility to acquire Iman. From this, they could be described as "mercenaries", and answer to that title, while not being what you describe as mercenaries. I doubt they are truly motivated by money, for Kematu, as you previously mentioned, split the bounty in half for your cooperation. Any half-decent mercenary wouldn't give such a large portion of payment to someone, especially if they were driven by money as you implied. Considering the traditionalist ways of the Alik'r nomads, it is very easy to believe that Kematu simply seeks justice, and the payment him and his band received mattered little to him in comparison to capturing a traitor to his people, especially one who aided a force so utterly despised by the Redguards.

Saadia's age: Honestly, I'm surprised that no one argued this further, especially given the fact that her age is never stated. You believe her to be young, presumably, and that it would be lore breaking for her to have betrayed Taneth. I believe her to be in her mid 40's, and when considering her age lines and partially graying hair. (Using this picture for reference, vanilla Skyrim and such. http://www.justpushstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/need02.jpg), I believe myself to be correct. No rational argument about lorebreaking can be made when her age isn't stated, and neither of us can be considered correct with using personal inference. For the purposes of lore accuracy, it is assumed that she was in fact old enough to betray Taneth, and I find that easy to accept. Whatever your personal opinion is on her character model, don't use that as an argument for this quest's authenticity in lore.

That's all I have time to write for tonight, I suppose I can make an active argument if/when you retort.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
.....Has it occurred to you that Kematu's mention of a resistance towards the Aldmeri Dominion is in fact referring to Hammerfell's active resistance against the Dominion? Though the Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed, the Redguards as a now united people would undoubtedly not have the highest view of the Dominion, and though the open war has ended, it is not impossible to believe that Hammerfell has similar plans to that of the Empire against the Dominion. In that sense, the resistance of Hammerfell makes perfect sense. As the definition of resistance is to "exert force in opposition", and noting the bad blood between Hammerfell and the Dominion, it is not difficult to imagine that this was his meaning for the words.
It's actually an extreme reach to redefine a term that's already been established in the lore as well in history in general to have a very specific meaning. It's quite clear that the resistance from a lore perspective refers to the resistance to occupation by the Aldmeri Dominion just as it's equally clear that that is what the term generally means in respect to a state of warfare as there has historically never been a reference to the term as anything but the same. It makes no sense at all to refer to independent, sovereign Hammerfell under a legal state of peace with the Aldmeri Dominion as anything but Hammerfell let alone the "resistance". Sorry but your premise is unpersuasive.
Mercenaries, lacking honor: Alright, this hurt a bit. Barring the fact that the Redguards of Hammerfell prize are a people that prize honor, dignity, and tradition above all else (The ones from Hammerfell specifically, outlanders tend to be less so.)
The lore doesn't support you're romanticized view of the Redguards of Hammerfell. Putting aside the fact that they essentially slaughtered and enslaved the prior settlers of Hammerfell to establish their dominance, they have an indisputable history of infighting between the Crowns and the Forebears and historically were so lacking in concepts of solidarity and honor that the two sides reveled in one another's suffering under Camaron Usurper and the Nords, deliberately withholding aid even though both were supposed to be loyal to the Empire and thus each other in both instances.

You're unmerited attribution of Redguards of Hammerfell having some distinguishing characteristic towards "honor" compared to other races is nothing more than racial stereotyping. Any race is capable of being a mercenary. The irony of this is that you're quick to disregard your racial stereotyping to assert Saadia, also a Redguard of Hammerfell, is willing to sell out Hammerfell, yet inconsistently assert that Kematu, a self-professed mercenary, is too "honorable" to work for the Aldmeri Dominion. That goes beyond arbitrariness to a rather transparent and irrational bias in favor of Kematu (perhaps you think men are inherently more trustworthy than women). There is no compelling reason to believe it's more likely that he and his men have been hired by the Redguards than Thalmor.
...the warriors of the Alik'r are far from untrustworthy cutthroats. As the most traditional of the traditionalists, being nomads of the Alik'r desert, it is difficult to believe that ones that so deftly follow tradition would dare work for the Aldmeri dominion. These are literally one of the few groups that hate the Aldmeri more than the Crowns, and that takes effort.
The Alik'r are not a faction. Alik'r is geographical term for the northern portion of Hammerfell which is populated by both Crowns and Forebears. As such there is no "Alik'r" tradition so this entire premise is without merit. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Kematu and his men are nomadic. They could be Crowns, Forebears or Lhotunics and you have absolutely no basis to claim affiliation to one faction over another.
It is not difficult to believe that, considering their known hardiness and survivalist abilities stemming from their nomadic nature, the warriors would be hired as mercenaries by Hammerfell nobility to acquire Iman.
Which means they're mercenaries.
From this, they could be described as "mercenaries", and answer to that title, while not being what you describe as mercenaries.
No that makes them exactly what I describe as mercenaries.
I doubt they are truly motivated by money, for Kematu, as you previously mentioned, split the bounty in half for your cooperation. Any half-decent mercenary wouldn't give such a large portion of payment to someone, especially if they were driven by money as you implied.
All this implies is that Kematu isn't greedy to the point of sheer stupidity. He has no way of accessing Saadia in Whiterun. Half of a bounty is better than none or, worse, ending up dead on the point of your sword.
Saadia's age: Honestly, I'm surprised that no one argued this further, especially given the fact that her age is never stated. You believe her to be young, presumably, and that it would be lore breaking for her to have betrayed Taneth. I believe her to be in her mid 40's, and when considering her age lines and partially graying hair. (Using this picture for reference, vanilla Skyrim and such. http://www.justpushstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/need02.jpg), I believe myself to be correct. No rational argument about lorebreaking can be made when her age isn't stated, and neither of us can be considered correct with using personal inference. For the purposes of lore accuracy, it is assumed that she was in fact old enough to betray Taneth, and I find that easy to accept. Whatever your personal opinion is on her character model, don't use that as an argument for this quest's authenticity in lore.
It hasn't been brought up because arguments like yours don't make it any less incredulous. Taneth fell to the Dominion 30 years ago so that still makes her at best a teenager if one was to believe that she is in her mid 40's. That aside, you're completely wrong in your premise that we can't make any objective assumptions about her age. We have a basis from our ability to age our own characters and how characters old enough to have been an adult in the Great War look in the game. Here's a side by side comparison of Saadia to Kerah, who is the mother of a young child, and Rikke who would be the ideal age for Saadia for the alleged actions she took during the fall of Taneth:
8378304504_097a7c2c04_b.jpg

The quest isn't inconsistent with the lore simply because of Saadia's age, notwithstanding that you're premise fails to refute that. It's inconsistent with the lore on multiple points, several of which you didn't even bother to address.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Partly for amusement I made a Redguard character that looks like Saadia

8491682500_d101cf71a2_b.jpg


You can amuse yourself by trying to guess which one is the real Saadia but the point is that when I made her I set her complexion to the youngest setting which pretty much dismisses speculation that she's old enough to be Rikke's contemporary in terms of age. This is what Saadia would look like if you aged her with the complexion slider:

8490324499_9e9c1c79ab_h.jpg

The name of this facial texture in the Creation Kit is SkinHeadFemaleRedguardComplexion_Age40 which effectively invalidates your speculation about her age.
 

Zyphur

Member
She totally did it. But whatever, I wanted teh swords, and I didn't really care if she betrayed somebody, nor does Kematu, he just gets paid. Plus if you give her to him, Kematu says something like "Don't fall for a pretty face" and that's just a weird thing to say to my character, lol.

I might have helped him instead if he didn't sound so snide. :rolleyes:
 

FamiliarYokudan

New Member
It's actually an extreme reach to redefine a term that's already been established in the lore as well in history in general to have a very specific meaning. It's quite clear that the resistance from a lore perspective refers to the resistance to occupation by the Aldmeri Dominion just as it's equally clear that that is what the term generally means in respect to a state of warfare as there has historically never been a reference to the term as anything but the same. It makes no sense at all to refer to independent, sovereign Hammerfell under a legal state of peace with the Aldmeri Dominion as anything but Hammerfell let alone the "resistance". Sorry but your premise is unpersuasive.
The lore doesn't support you're romanticized view of the Redguards of Hammerfell. Putting aside the fact that they essentially slaughtered and enslaved the prior settlers of Hammerfell to establish their dominance, they have an indisputable history of infighting between the Crowns and the Forebears and historically were so lacking in concepts of solidarity and honor that the two sides reveled in one another's suffering under Camaron Usurper and the Nords, deliberately withholding aid even though both were supposed to be loyal to the Empire and thus each other in both instances.

You're unmerited attribution of Redguards of Hammerfell having some distinguishing characteristic towards "honor" compared to other races is nothing more than racial stereotyping. Any race is capable of being a mercenary. The irony of this is that you're quick to disregard your racial stereotyping to assert Saadia, also a Redguard of Hammerfell, is willing to sell out Hammerfell, yet inconsistently assert that Kematu, a self-professed mercenary, is too "honorable" to work for the Aldmeri Dominion. That goes beyond arbitrariness to a rather transparent and irrational bias in favor of Kematu (perhaps you think men are inherently more trustworthy than women). There is no compelling reason to believe it's more likely that he and his men have been hired by the Redguards than Thalmor.
The Alik'r are not a faction. Alik'r is geographical term for the northern portion of Hammerfell which is populated by both Crowns and Forebears. As such there is no "Alik'r" tradition so this entire premise is without merit. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Kematu and his men are nomadic. They could be Crowns, Forebears or Lhotunics and you have absolutely no basis to claim affiliation to one faction over another.
Which means they're mercenaries.
No that makes them exactly what I describe as mercenaries.
All this implies is that Kematu isn't greedy to the point of sheer stupidity. He has no way of accessing Saadia in Whiterun. Half of a bounty is better than none or, worse, ending up dead on the point of your sword.
It hasn't been brought up because arguments like yours don't make it any less incredulous. Taneth fell to the Dominion 30 years ago so that still makes her at best a teenager if one was to believe that she is in her mid 40's. That aside, you're completely wrong in your premise that we can't make any objective assumptions about her age. We have a basis from our ability to age our own characters and how characters old enough to have been an adult in the Great War look in the game. Here's a side by side comparison of Saadia to Kerah, who is the mother of a young child, and Rikke who would be the ideal age for Saadia for the alleged actions she took during the fall of Taneth:
8378304504_097a7c2c04_b.jpg

The quest isn't inconsistent with the lore simply because of Saadia's age, notwithstanding that you're premise fails to refute that. It's inconsistent with the lore on multiple points, several of which you didn't even bother to address.

(My apologies for the delayed response, work and such is a burden. Also, my thanks for responding, I love a good argument.)

On the first point, why would you assume Kematu's words referred to the Redguard resistance that led to the treaty? Why, may I ask, would Kematu feel the need to mention this if it was referring to this time, it seems like that would be stating the obvious if it was during the five years of fighting. Mentioning it during this later time period gives way to the belief that Hammerfell may not be nearly as "peaceful" with the Dominion as the treaty dictated, and that they have similar plans to the Legion in terms of destroying the Dominion and acquiring proper vengeance for the lives lost during the Great War. I never found this to be hard to comprehend, as it seemed rather obvious that the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai would not close the book on hostile feelings between the two military giants. Opinion tends to take root here, but it seems doubtful that the quest was written in a way that would be lore broken and simply ignored, especially when it gives a sharp poke towards another big player in the possible future confrontations with the Dominion. You can perceive it as you will, but this does not seem difficult to believe from a personal statement. Still, I respect your opinion on the matter.

Second point, the Forebear and Crown conflict doesn't so much lack honor as it is simply the worst kind of conflict of interests. On one end, we have the Crowns, properly following the Yokudan traditions of old. They follow the Yoku pantheon, and the old ways of Hammerfell. Crowns, in general, would be considered the more honorable of the two, if only to satisfy the tradition of warriors. This is not to say that all Redguards of the Crowns are honorable, hell, Cyrus was far from it. On the hand, we have the Forebears, Redguards that have given in to the cosmopolitan influence of the the Empire, taking their dress, their customs, and their gods. I don't have a very high view of the Forebears, notedly, but I suppose there is some justification for their betrayal of the old ways. The divide between these two groups was too deep, the hostilities too fiery to allow much reconciliation for honor's sake. In the end, it required a full scale invasion of Hammerfell to make the Forebears suck up their pride and aid the Crowns at the siege of Hegathe.

On the second part of the second point, I believe you are mixing up racial profiling and tradition. I distrusted Saadia for various reasons, much of it being the sultry tone, the various conflicts between accounts of the Great War and her statements that I presumed to be lies, and the fact that she contradicted herself upon the matter of the guards. I could give two less damns if she was an Iman, or he was an A'tor, a noble that betrays the Redguards doesn't exactly win favor in my book. It wasn't even Kematu's words that convinced me of his truth. The traditional look and weaponry of the Alik'r warriors made me believe them, as it seems doubtful that Redguards of this sort would serve the Dominion by any means. Mayhaps I'm a softie for curved swords, but they certainly weren't Forebears, who adopted Imperial style of dress, nor did they seem to be common city folk when noting the Redguard styles from the old comic. Hell, their classes list them as scouts, which along with the light wrappings, made me assume them to be the traditional nomadic warriors of the Alik'r desert spoken of in past lore. The first Empire guide trashed them quite a bit, but I still still remember their mentioning.

Also, bringing up the warrior wave on Hammerfell as dishonorable is a bit biased on the mind-set of war, as the Yokudans that formed the wave were "making way" for the royalty to arrive in safety. From their perception, it was in fact honorable to wage war upon the denizens of Hammerfell for the crown, especially for a race so dedicated to warrior culture. A Hoon-Ding surfaced during this time as both Frandar and Diagna, tying in with the "make-way" beliefs of the Ra Gada vanguard. Honor tends to be based on perception, as what some Nords would consider to be honorable, Imperials may find to be foolishly savage. Tis the root for my love of Elder Scrolls lore, I suppose.

For the third point, your stating the obvious about the Alik'r desert, anyone who has played Daggerfall would know that. I can, in fact, claim some basis for their affiliation based on attire. Forebears and Lhotunics were known to adopt Imperial stylings based upon lore, though the Lhotunics tried to keep some tradition in there as the general "third" party. Crowns, on the other hand, would support the viewpoint that they were not working for the Aldmeri Dominion. As much as I'd like them to be Crowns, I doubt that just as much when looking at the general style of both factions from the old comics. The attire of Kematu's band seems much more desert oriented and light, tying in with the Satakal favoring nomads mentioned in past text. So yes, I believe I can claim at least some basis for their affiliation, or at least count at what they aren't.

For the subject of mercenaries, I would agree that your definition of them would be applicable without all the villainizing. Your posts seem to give off the belief that all mercenaries are money-loving lowlifes, or rather, that Kematu's band is as such with little evidence but their title and few noted actions, none of which I saw to give off any lack of honor. Your mention of them hiring bandits rather than honest sell-swords provided a good laugh, so I do thank you for that part. From the dialogue heard in game, Kematu simply payed to allow his band to hide out in the back of the cave, allowing a base of operations without being to open to the public. Considering Iman's paranoia on capture, it makes quite a bit of sense to want to stay out of notice until they make a move. Sure, they could have simply killed all the bandits in the cave at the cost of some of Kematu's men, but that would be a double edged sword if a scavenger found the now empty cave, which presumably lead to either A) The warriors murder the scavenger, sadly dishonorable, or B) allow this person to presumably return to Whiterun with this trite bit of information and scavenge, and considering the looseness of tongues for a good story, the location would easily be conveyed to Iman through tavern gossip. It is a necessary evil, certainly, but for the success of their task, it is one the Alik'r seem to be willing to make. In all honesty, I didn't give much of a damn about the Alik'r that "nearly" captured the Redguard woman, as they didn't, plain and simple. They recognized that she did not bare the scar, admitted their mistake, and with little patience, told her to go on her way, and with her sass, they gave a blunt warning to her about her "mouthing" getting her into trouble . They weren't getting on their knees in forgiveness, but I justified it by the fact of how utterly frustrating it would be to have this false hope crushed by a sudden realization. Finding a single Redguard woman in the entirety of Skyrim is that fits Iman's description is presumably quite difficult, and with Kematu's mention of finally being able to return home when you first discuss Iman with him, I presume that it is quite the kick in the shin for this sort of thing to happen, that being the two Alik'r meeting with the Redguard woman.

On the point of Kematu being greedy to the point of stupidity, and being unable to enter Whiterun without help, really? Sure, it would be more difficult to successfully achieve such a thing without the hero's aid, but with their current knowledge of Iman's whereabouts, I presume it wouldn't have been impossible to do. Hell, even the Alik'r prisoner mentions that he got caught because he wasn't good enough, he had shamed his brothers in this way. I presume that with proper planning, and time, they would succeed in their task. That being said, it is quicker and easier to simply make use of the hero, something that does not sound like the thoughts of a money driven mercenary. Kematu wants to get home, and bring Iman to justice, a bit of gold is a fair sacrifice for that.

For the argument of Saadia's age, and your images of two women that have clearly aged badly, I offer simply this. Not all people age in the same way, regardless of Skyrim's age slider. There are twenty year old's that look utterly worn to the point of fourties, and fifty five year olds who have little more than slight baggage to show for there age. Specifically, I pit Delphine as an example of someone who aged well. She is confirmed to be in her mid fifties, yet lacks the grey hair of Iman, with similar stress lines. Your showing of an aged Redguard face makes little example of anything other than a singular showing of a fourty year old Redguard woman, lest you want to put forth that all Redguard women age exactly the same. If so, I feel utterly bad for Izhara, as she seemed to be an odd one out.

I could scroll back through the pages, seek out every one of your arguments, and attempt to refute them, but that is time I don't have on a general basis. For my ease of writing, I respond to the higher points I saw consistently mentioned. By all means, feel free to bring up the ones I missed once more, I will get to them when I can.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
...Why, may I ask, would Kematu feel the need to mention this if it was referring to this time, it seems like that would be stating the obvious if it was during the five years of fighting.
No, it wouldn't be obvious. In the game, NPC's say things that seem obvious for someone who is fully informed about the lore all the time. It's one of the primary ways that the lore of the game is communicated to players. Many players don't bother to read documents in the game. Your observation doesn't support your premise. It's completely consistent for Kematu to be referring to the resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion in the present tense and it means that in his world the Aldmeri Dominion occupy Hammerfell and the resistance against the occupation is alive and well.
...Mentioning it during this later time period gives way to the belief that Hammerfell may not be nearly as "peaceful" with the Dominion as the treaty dictated...
No it doesn't. We know absolutely nothing about what's going on concurrently in Hammerfell. Your contrived semantic argument aside, no one refers to the opposition by one independent sovereign unoccupied nation against another nation as "the resistance." There's already a conventional term widely used for that called "war."
...and that they have similar plans to the Legion in terms of destroying the Dominion and acquiring proper vengeance for the lives lost during the Great War...
First there is no support for the notion that the Imperial Legion is planning to destroy the Dominion except in the most abstract sense of the word. All content in the game points to the fact that the Imperial Legion is still rebuilding itself to a level sufficient to safeguard the Empire. Second there is absolutely nothing in the game to support any notion of what the intentions are in Hammerfell regarding the Aldmeri Dominion and anything you purport regarding the same is pure speculation without any support from the lore.
... Opinion tends to take root here, but it seems doubtful that the quest was written in a way that would be lore broken and simply ignored...
It doesn't seem doubtful at all if you understand how game production and development for an open environment game works. ES V was produced and developed in just 3 years. That's a very short time to produce and develop all of the quests, open world content, lore documents, voice acting, music, quality control, alpha and beta testing etc. Different aspects of the game are developed in parallel and independently of one another including quests and lore documents. If you understand this and the number of independent development teams that were involved in the game, it's not hard at all to imagine that the team that developed In My Time of Need did so before the definitive timeline was established between the end of the Great War and the Civil War in Skyrim, and that the amount of quality control testing that would be necessary to prevent any instance of such a mistake and the fact that the game was rushed to release to meet an overhyped 11-11-11 release date could easily result in an instance of game content that ended up being lore consistent. It's no different than the plethora of bugs and glitches that weren't discovered by release.
...especially when it gives a sharp poke towards another big player in the possible future confrontations with the Dominion...
It's not meant to be a sharp poke towards anything. If it's a mistake then there's no intent so the attribution of it being glaring once uncovered does nothing to refute the notion that it's a mistake.
...I don't have a very high view of the Forebears.....
Taneth is a Forebear city. The Houses of Taneth that would have allegedly hired Kematu and his mercenaries would be Forebears. I've previousy noted that Taneth was one of the cities that was quickly overwhelmed at the beginning of the Great War by the vastly larger armies of Lady Arannelya which makes the notion that they needed any collusion to sack the city extremely questionable and casts doubt on Kematu's allegations. I've also noted before that if we take the quest for what it is, i.e. lore inconsistent, and simply run with it as it was intended, there is the probability that both Kematu and Saadia are lying, that neither story gives us an accurate accounting for why Kematu is pursuing Saadia, and that the notion that the Houses of Taneth and by proxy Kematu might want her for reasons entirely unrelated to the fall of Taneth is an alternate possibility.
...Specifically, I pit Delphine as an example of someone who aged well. She is confirmed to be in her mid fifties, yet lacks the grey hair of Iman...
Saadia's hair isn't grey it's black. Delphine is a Breton. Bretons are a hybrid race descended from Aldmers and Nedes and the conventional interpretation has been that they age at a rate somewhere between their two parent races, i.e. slower than the races of men. In addition, you stated that Saadia looks to be in her forties. I simply pointed out that in terms of appearances the game mechanics shows this to be objectively incorrect. It's not a a singular showing of a forty year old Redguard woman. It's showing what Saadia would look like if she looked like she was in her mid-forties by game standards. If you've abandoned your position that she looks like she is in her mid-forties and now want to argue that she is much older than she looks that's your prerogative but that position doesn't have the same strength or resonance as your prior claim would have had if it had been valid and if you're relying on Delphine as a basis that Skyrim doesn't physically age faces consistently that's not really a great basis to draw that conclusion.

The fact that Saadia does in fact look like she is in her thirties, that Kematu believes the resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion's occupation of Hammerfell is alive and well and by inference the Dominion still control a portion of Hammerfell, and that Saadia's version of events also requires the occupation to be ongoing and recent (there's no rational reason for the Dominion to pursue a Redguard of Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion occupation over 25 years ago) all support the conclusion that this quest was designed with a different timeline in which the events of Skyrim overlap with the Redguard's war against the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell after the end of the Great War. The bottom line is that your rationalizations for why the content of the quest is presented the way it is in terms of dialogues, stories and appearances are extremely contrived and require a significantly subjective, unconventional and unintuitive way of interpreting the game content while what I presented requires one only to accept what the game content presents to you at face value.

As an aside your conclusions about the lore equating the Redguard nomads with the Crowns and the cosmopolitan Redguards with the Forebears is inaccurate. The lore does draw a distinction between the nomadic Redguards and the city dwelling Redguards. It does not attribute them as being particular to one Redguard faction or the other. There's a tendency for players to make this false attribution because the Crowns embrace certain old traditions while the Forebears do not, but they are ideological traditions related to the old caste system of Yokuda, not the superficial aspects of clothing. Also in that regard the lore makes it clear that even the city dwelling Redguards' clothing still retain aspects of style that are uniquely Yokudan. The lore makes it quite clear that the cities are populated by both Crowns and Forebears and it is also makes no references to specific factions in describing the nomadic Redguards.

I won't bother to specifically address your other points as they're irrelevant to the lore-inconsistency of the quest content, except to note that they are flawed and interestingly indicative of a biased male perspective of the actions of the men and women in the quest. There are no smoking guns in the quest that make one choice objectively morally persuasive over the other. That was clearly the intent of the developers and it's only feasible if one recognizes and acknowledges the lore inconsistency.
 

FamiliarYokudan

New Member
No, it wouldn't be obvious. In the game, NPC's say things that seem obvious for someone who is fully informed about the lore all the time. It's one of the primary ways that the lore of the game is communicated to players. Many players don't bother to read documents in the game. Your observation doesn't support your premise. It's completely consistent for Kematu to be referring to the resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion in the present tense and it means that in his world the Aldmeri Dominion occupy Hammerfell and the resistance against the occupation is alive and well.
No it doesn't. We know absolutely nothing about what's going on concurrently in Hammerfell. Your contrived semantic argument aside, no one refers to the opposition by one independent sovereign unoccupied nation against another nation as "the resistance." There's already a conventional term widely used for that called "war."
First there is no support for the notion that the Imperial Legion is planning to destroy the Dominion except in the most abstract sense of the word. All content in the game points to the fact that the Imperial Legion is still rebuilding itself to a level sufficient to safeguard the Empire. Second there is absolutely nothing in the game to support any notion of what the intentions are in Hammerfell regarding the Aldmeri Dominion and anything you purport regarding the same is pure speculation without any support from the lore.
It doesn't seem doubtful at all if you understand how game production and development for an open environment game works. ES V was produced and developed in just 3 years. That's a very short time to produce and develop all of the quests, open world content, lore documents, voice acting, music, quality control, alpha and beta testing etc. Different aspects of the game are developed in parallel and independently of one another including quests and lore documents. If you understand this and the number of independent development teams that were involved in the game, it's not hard at all to imagine that the team that developed In My Time of Need did so before the definitive timeline was established between the end of the Great War and the Civil War in Skyrim, and that the amount of quality control testing that would be necessary to prevent any instance of such a mistake and the fact that the game was rushed to release to meet an overhyped 11-11-11 release date could easily result in an instance of game content that ended up being lore consistent. It's no different than the plethora of bugs and glitches that weren't discovered by release.
It's not meant to be a sharp poke towards anything. If it's a mistake then there's no intent so the attribution of it being glaring once uncovered does nothing to refute the notion that it's a mistake.
Taneth is a Forebear city. The Houses of Taneth that would have allegedly hired Kematu and his mercenaries would be Forebears. I've previousy noted that Taneth was one of the cities that was quickly overwhelmed at the beginning of the Great War by the vastly larger armies of Lady Arannelya which makes the notion that they needed any collusion to sack the city extremely questionable and casts doubt on Kematu's allegations. I've also noted before that if we take the quest for what it is, i.e. lore inconsistent, and simply run with it as it was intended, there is the probability that both Kematu and Saadia are lying, that neither story gives us an accurate accounting for why Kematu is pursuing Saadia, and that the notion that the Houses of Taneth and by proxy Kematu might want her for reasons entirely unrelated to the fall of Taneth is an alternate possibility.
Saadia's hair isn't grey it's black. Delphine is a Breton. Bretons are a hybrid race descended from Aldmers and Nedes and the conventional interpretation has been that they age at a rate somewhere between their two parent races, i.e. slower than the races of men. In addition, you stated that Saadia looks to be in her forties. I simply pointed out that in terms of appearances the game mechanics shows this to be objectively incorrect. It's not a a singular showing of a forty year old Redguard woman. It's showing what Saadia would look like if she looked like she was in her mid-forties by game standards. If you've abandoned your position that she looks like she is in her mid-forties and now want to argue that she is much older than she looks that's your prerogative but that position doesn't have the same strength or resonance as your prior claim would have had if it had been valid and if you're relying on Delphine as a basis that Skyrim doesn't physically age faces consistently that's not really a great basis to draw that conclusion.

The fact that Saadia does in fact look like she is in her thirties, that Kematu believes the resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion's occupation of Hammerfell is alive and well and by inference the Dominion still control a portion of Hammerfell, and that Saadia's version of events also requires the occupation to be ongoing and recent (there's no rational reason for the Dominion to pursue a Redguard of Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion occupation over 25 years ago) all support the conclusion that this quest was designed with a different timeline in which the events of Skyrim overlap with the Redguard's war against the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell after the end of the Great War. The bottom line is that your rationalizations for why the content of the quest is presented the way it is in terms of dialogues, stories and appearances are extremely contrived and require a significantly subjective, unconventional and unintuitive way of interpreting the game content while what I presented requires one only to accept what the game content presents to you at face value.

As an aside your conclusions about the lore equating the Redguard nomads with the Crowns and the cosmopolitan Redguards with the Forebears is inaccurate. The lore does draw a distinction between the nomadic Redguards and the city dwelling Redguards. It does not attribute them as being particular to one Redguard faction or the other. There's a tendency for players to make this false attribution because the Crowns embrace certain old traditions while the Forebears do not, but they are ideological traditions related to the old caste system of Yokuda, not the superficial aspects of clothing. Also in that regard the lore makes it clear that even the city dwelling Redguards' clothing still retain aspects of style that are uniquely Yokudan. The lore makes it quite clear that the cities are populated by both Crowns and Forebears and it is also makes no references to specific factions in describing the nomadic Redguards.

I won't bother to specifically address your other points as they're irrelevant to the lore-inconsistency of the quest content, except to note that they are flawed and interestingly indicative of a biased male perspective of the actions of the men and women in the quest. There are no smoking guns in the quest that make one choice objectively morally persuasive over the other. That was clearly the intent of the developers and it's only feasible if one recognizes and acknowledges the lore inconsistency.

For the first point, I just disagree. I believe that the mention of resistance being alive and well in Hammerfell inclines that trouble didn't simply end with the signing of the second treaty of Stros M'kai, and you believe that this quest is in the past. I'd certainly like you to bring up the lore breaking points again, so as to make this a simpler task for me to attempt a refute, but it really doesn't matter. I presume I will eventually get to finding your complete argument by scrolling through the pages again, if not a bit delayed in terms of actual posting. If Hammerfell were currently resisting the Aldmeri Dominion during that five year conflict, I just don't see why Kematu would need to mention it, beyond Bethesda poking those who didn't give much time to lore with a vague sentence. If the quest is to be taken in current times, it makes a rather interesting suggestion about the current state of Hammerfell, which we have little news of in Skyrim besides the book, and this quest. It would not be the first time Bethesda makes you need to think about your choice, especially if remembering the old Vehk/Vivec duality.

On to the second point, I nearly felt it necessary to face palm, and god knows I hate the usage of internet terms. I presume it would be considered war if it was, you know, actually war. From Kematu's mention of resistance in Hammerfell, it's easy to presume that such things are not openly declared. There's no declared conflict currently known between Hammerfell and the Dominion, but the mention of resistance "does" makes it seem that the treaty was little more than a bandage for a flesh wound, at least from a personal view. This applies when one actually takes the quest as it is during current lore, but less so when believing it to be in the past. A Hammerfellian resistance movement would presumably act out of the bounds of the treaty, fitting in fine and dandy with the definition of "resistance". You've stated that there is already a clearly defined term for the resistance in Hammerfell, which is noted. It all leads down to how Kematu's words are perceived, the resistance being live and well seems like a fair statement towards that conclusion for one that takes the quest as Bethesda put it to be, not simply assuming that the quest is inaccurate lore-wise due to personal reasoning. It's in the game, it's there, Bethesda hasn't commented on it, and I believe you are the only one that has made an argument against this quest's lore accuracy, and there are a lot of us Elder Scrolls lore junkies out there. There's tons of Elder Scrolls arguments that I see consistently, whether it be the bickering about Vivec's justification, or the Red King's jungling wasn't just a slap in the face, all is just common bait. This however, this is a first.

For the third, yes, Tullius' mention is as vague as vague can get, but that pretty much sums up the series in a nutshell. The fact that he mentioned something on the matter at all means something, and even without his statement, it's a pretty easy to infer that the Empire is far from throwing in the towel. I don't believe I stated that the plans were immediate for either Hammerfell or the Empire, simmer down, have a sweet roll. Redguards guards are known for two things above all, being a warrior race, and having a fiercely independent spirit. That's about as much evidence as I need for a starting argument, the rest has to be assumed because there is so little knowledge of Hammerfell's current dealings. You make the best educated guess you can, and move on.

On to the fourth one, bugs and glitches are simply part of the ride when it comes to Bethesda games. It's half of it's charm for the more entertaining ones, and an understandable bastard for the less than "charming" ones. Lore inaccuracies, however, tend to be rather rare, though that's moreso because they've made such wonderful retcon devices as Dragon Breaks and CHIM. The only one I can remember from Oblivion was Mankar Camoran being a High Elf, and even that can be justified by the "Notes on Racial Phylogeny", or simply because Wood Elf males...lack intimidating stature. Well, that and his speech, but we don't talk about his speech. The lore inaccuracies that I've seen you to point out need far less justification than either of those, as your belief of Saadia's age and the meaning of resistance in Kematu's dialogue are based on your opinion, not any actual lore based fact.

For the fifth portion, perception, simple as that.

For the sixth glass of juice, the fact that Taneth was a Forebear city changes nothing about the instigation. If anything, the treason that Saadia is believed to have committed could be the reason why Taneth fell so quickly. Not knowing much about the subject is far from lore breaking. I honestly wanted to make an argument solely against Saadia for a post, but half of my writing time is currently spent on attempting to refute your point on the lore accuracy of the quest. You have some fair points for supporting Saadia, that much I can agree with.

For the seventh, my mention of the Saadia's hair is stemmed from the fact that there are grey tinges inside her dominantly black hair. As for your argument of Breton aging, really? You bashed my inference on Hammerfell's current state, but that has legitmately no lore basis what so ever. There is nothing for Breton's aging slower than other men beyond the assumption of their dilluted merish blood, most of which is primarily nede and proto-nord. The common consensus is that they age at the same rate as men, with Emperor Cassynder's mention of "aging like a Breton", being a single note that makes the belief that Bretons age "worse" than common men. It's far fetched, and even I don't completely believe it, but it has more basis than your argument of Breton aging. The game mechanics allow someone to have an aged appearance, but that does not define their characters age. Years aren't the only thing the wear someone down, children and war tend to have an adverse effect on that as well. Rikke was a member of the Legion, and I presume the aged appearance of your prior Redguard example could be attested to her child. It's perfectly plausible that Saadia could look relatively youthful by a later age, as the slider is little more than an aspect that increased the character difference in Skyrim. It has not, and is not supposed to be considered concrete evidence of any NPC's age.

Saadia's mention of the Dominion could play on two different things. A) The Dominion is utterly relentless in their pursuit of enemies, noting the Blades. B) She thinks you're an idiot, and assumes you wouldn't question the matter further than her mention.

(Unfinished argument once more, I'm disappointed I couldn't finish in time.)
 
Whoa....arguments on this page are super long....I side with Saadia cause it gives you more people to kill....I werewolfed the whole dungeon in about 2 minutes and when I got to Kematu I power attacked him to throw him into the water down below and had killed all his associates by the time he even got back up. Fun is fun, I don't over think it. More guys to kill the better.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
...I believe that the mention of resistance being alive and well in Hammerfell inclines that trouble didn't simply end with the signing of the second treaty of Stros M'kai...
The latter notion lends no support for the former one. The Aldmeri Dominion made a complete withdrawal from Hammerfell as part of the terms of the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai. Trouble has existed perpetually between the Aldmeri Dominion and Hammerfell as the Dominion has always been the enemy of the Empire and Hammerfell had been part of the Empire during both incarnations. Notiwthstanding that undeniable fact, historically neither the Empire, Hammerfell or any other province has ever had a movement within it that has been described as a resistance except against an occupying or ruling force. You continue to ignore the fact that the term resistance has a fixed and conventional meaning both in the game and in the real world because you have no empirical data to refute that fact. Resistance as a movement has always meant resistance to a ruling or occupying power. The Aldmeri Dominion is neither to Hammerfell. You're only clinging to a contrived view of what a resistance movement means and you're only able to do so by fabricating a non-existent resistance movement for a non-existent situation in Hammerfell without any support or corroboration from the lore because it's the only way your interpretation of events can be even remotely intelligible

....If Hammerfell were currently resisting the Aldmeri Dominion during that five year conflict, I just don't see why Kematu would need to mention it...
Then you must not see why a great deal of NPC dialogue exists in the game. By your psuedo-logic there's no purpose to stating anything about how the Stormcloaks are resisting the Imperial Legions in Skyrim because it's current and obvious. The only reason to refuse to understand why an NPC makes this particular apparent observation is because one would rather pretend that the lore faux pas doesn't exist.

.....I presume it would be considered war if it was, you know, actually war. From Kematu's mention of resistance in Hammerfell, it's easy to presume that such things are not openly declared....
No it's not. The fact that it's essential for you to make that presumption to support the labored notion that resistance means something that it doesn't does nothing to support the notion that the presumption is an easy one to draw rather than a spurious one.

....The lore inaccuracies that I've seen you to point out need far less justification than either of those, as your belief of Saadia's age and the meaning of resistance in Kematu's dialogue are based on your opinion, not any actual lore based fact...
No, they are based on facts. That existence of the Redguard resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion occupation of Hammerfell that fought against the Dominion for five years is fact and lore. Saadia's physical appearance is fact based on game mechanics and explicit descriptors for textures that are meant to make people appear in their forties and fifties. Your claim that the resistance is anything other than the historical Redguard resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion occupation of Hammerfell on the other hand is only your opinion based on pure speculation as is your claim that Saadia simply aged well. Her hair is black not grey which is why the hair texture is called black when you look at it in the Creation Kit. There is no common consensus that Breton's age at the same rate as men. The reference to Cassynder aging like a Breton lends no support to that notion let alone that Bretons age worse than common men. That notion is only shared by players who are ignorant of the lore and like to parrot misinformed sound bites from lore sources out of context. In context, the quote taken from Volume 2 of Brief History of the Empire refers to the length of Cassynder's reign compared to his mother Katariah who was Dunmer and is a reference to the fact that he was only half elven, unlike his mother, and thus not as long lived as a Dunmer. Katariah's reign was for 46 years. Cassynder is referred to as middle-aged when he succeeded her. Even if we were to assume that he was a newborn when she ascended to the Ruby Throne (which isn't likely as his father was institutionalized by that time) that supports the notion that Bretons are at least as long lived as the races of men and the likelihood that he was older than an infant at the beginning of Katariah's reign supports the notion that Bretons are somewhat longer lived than other races of men.

If anything, the treason that Saadia is believed to have committed could be the reason why Taneth fell so quickly. Not knowing much about the subject is far from lore breaking.
No. The book The Great War is clear that the initial resistance in Southern Hammerfell was scattered and quickly overrun by Lady Arannelya's armies which greatly outnumbered the Imperial Legions and drove them to the North.

It's perfectly plausible that Saadia could look relatively youthful by a later age, as the slider is little more than an aspect that increased the character difference in Skyrim. It has not, and is not supposed to be considered concrete evidence of any NPC's age.
It is concrete evidence of her apparent age and that is all that matters. It means that in order to believe she is the age she appears to be you need only accept what the game presents her to be while in order to believe she is in her fifties you have to make presumptions about her genetics that only need to be made to believe that it isn't lore inconsistent.

Saadia's mention of the Dominion could play on two different things. A) The Dominion is utterly relentless in their pursuit of enemies, noting the Blades.
The Blades are actively opposed to the Aldmeri Dominion and the White-Gold Concordat. Saadia is not regardless of whose story you believe. Her position is no different than that of thousands of other Redguards who spoke out and even fought against the Aldmeri Dominion. Unless you support the notion that the Aldmeri Dominion maintains thousands of open bounties against Redguards this explanation is implausible.

B) She thinks you're an idiot, and assumes you wouldn't question the matter further than her mention.
She has no basis to think you're an idiot. Further it also requires Bethesda to think that you, the actual player, are an idiot. Otherwise in a quest that's supposed to be morally ambiguous this makes no sense at all. It becomes the otherwise non-existent smoking gun that defies the notion that the quest is morally ambiguous. In addition Saadia is supposed to be far more creative in her deceptions as implied by Kematu's dialogue when he confronts her at the stables.
 

Skulli

Is that fur coming out of your ears?
Honestly, I usually just kill Saadia upstairs at the Inn immediately, for daring to pull a knife on me.

I am NOT a Nord to be trifled with.

:p
 

FamiliarYokudan

New Member
The latter notion lends no support for the former one. The Aldmeri Dominion made a complete withdrawal from Hammerfell as part of the terms of the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai. Trouble has existed perpetually between the Aldmeri Dominion and Hammerfell as the Dominion has always been the enemy of the Empire and Hammerfell had been part of the Empire during both incarnations. Notiwthstanding that undeniable fact, historically neither the Empire, Hammerfell or any other province has ever had a movement within it that has been described as a resistance except against an occupying or ruling force. You continue to ignore the fact that the term resistance has a fixed and conventional meaning both in the game and in the real world because you have no empirical data to refute that fact. Resistance as a movement has always meant resistance to a ruling or occupying power. The Aldmeri Dominion is neither to Hammerfell. You're only clinging to a contrived view of what a resistance movement means and you're only able to do so by fabricating a non-existent resistance movement for a non-existent situation in Hammerfell without any support or corroboration from the lore because it's the only way your interpretation of events can be even remotely intelligible
Then you must not see why a great deal of NPC dialogue exists in the game. By your psuedo-logic there's no purpose to stating anything about how the Stormcloaks are resisting the Imperial Legions in Skyrim because it's current and obvious. The only reason to refuse to understand why an NPC makes this particular apparent observation is because one would rather pretend that the lore faux pas doesn't exist.
No it's not. The fact that it's essential for you to make that presumption to support the labored notion that resistance means something that it doesn't does nothing to support the notion that the presumption is an easy one to draw rather than a spurious one.
No, they are based on facts. That existence of the Redguard resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion occupation of Hammerfell that fought against the Dominion for five years is fact and lore. Saadia's physical appearance is fact based on game mechanics and explicit descriptors for textures that are meant to make people appear in their forties and fifties. Your claim that the resistance is anything other than the historical Redguard resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion occupation of Hammerfell on the other hand is only your opinion based on pure speculation as is your claim that Saadia simply aged well. Her hair is black not grey which is why the hair texture is called black when you look at it in the Creation Kit. There is no common consensus that Breton's age at the same rate as men. The reference to Cassynder aging like a Breton lends no support to that notion let alone that Bretons age worse than common men. That notion is only shared by players who are ignorant of the lore and like to parrot misinformed sound bites from lore sources out of context. In context, the quote taken from Volume 2 of Brief History of the Empire refers to the length of Cassynder's reign compared to his mother Katariah who was Dunmer and is a reference to the fact that he was only half elven, unlike his mother, and thus not as long lived as a Dunmer. Katariah's reign was for 46 years. Cassynder is referred to as middle-aged when he succeeded her. Even if we were to assume that he was a newborn when she ascended to the Ruby Throne (which isn't likely as his father was institutionalized by that time) that supports the notion that Bretons are at least as long lived as the races of men and the likelihood that he was older than an infant at the beginning of Katariah's reign supports the notion that Bretons are somewhat longer lived than other races of men.
No. The book The Great War is clear that the initial resistance in Southern Hammerfell was scattered and quickly overrun by Lady Arannelya's armies which greatly outnumbered the Imperial Legions and drove them to the North.
It is concrete evidence of her apparent age and that is all that matters. It means that in order to believe she is the age she appears to be you need only accept what the game presents her to be while in order to believe she is in her fifties you have to make presumptions about her genetics that only need to be made to believe that it isn't lore inconsistent.
The Blades are actively opposed to the Aldmeri Dominion and the White-Gold Concordat. Saadia is not regardless of whose story you believe. Her position is no different than that of thousands of other Redguards who spoke out and even fought against the Aldmeri Dominion. Unless you support the notion that the Aldmeri Dominion maintains thousands of open bounties against Redguards this explanation is implausible.
She has no basis to think you're an idiot. Further it also requires Bethesda to think that you, the actual player, are an idiot. Otherwise in a quest that's supposed to be morally ambiguous this makes no sense at all. It becomes the otherwise non-existent smoking gun that defies the notion that the quest is morally ambiguous. In addition Saadia is supposed to be far more creative in her deceptions as implied by Kematu's dialogue when he confronts her at the stables.

Alright, I suppose I can finish my posts from the last message with this one.

First, wounded. Such "hurtful" words are unnecessary for an argument. I admit that the use of the term "resistance" may be a bit odd in this circumstance, and I did in fact misuse "resistance movement" in this situation. I felt the words fit for what I was explaining, but it seems my knowledge of such terms is rusty at best. This being said, I will break it down what I am trying to explain in the simplest manner, cut out the extra chafe and what not. I believe that what Kematu meant by "The resistance against the Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell", is that it did not end with the signing of the treaty. Not the "average" use of terms notedly, but not entirely unbelievable when thinking of Redguard feelings in Hammerfell. I doubt that Redguards would simply shrug their shoulders at the Aldmeri with treaty in place, simply gritting their teeth at the time passed. I doubt the Redguards would have teeth at all after twenty years, if they kept that up. Taking care of loose ends would be a fair priority before any "actions" were taken, for any half-witted noble anyhow. I presume justice might have a part in it, but I'm being blunt when considering emotions here. Arguing for the Alik'r warriors aside, we have no knowledge of what's going on in Hammerfell, it is as equally improbable that Hammerfell is utterly calm after the treaty as believing them to having something brewing, trouble in paradise if you would. To quote Carl Sagan, "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence".

For the second part, that was me personally not seeing why it is done in such a way. I'm not a quest writer, and I will not argue with Bethesda if they make mention of such things, but the lore "faux paus" you speak of has, as I have noticed, been your belief of a character's age by personal perception of what you see her to be, an unwillingness to see Kematu's words in present tense. Unwillingness may even be the wrong word for it, I presume you simply do not draw the same conclusion that others do from the words, and I do not fault you for that.

For third, if we have to go on actual lore based evidence, there is little for either side. What you call a presumption, I call an inference, two sides of a bent coin. When looking at Redguard history and culture as a whole, and noting that there is no news of war in Hammerfell as of present times, it is as easy to say there is nothing going on as there is to say that such things are would not be out in the open. Resistance can be several things Dagmar, believing that the instance after the Great War is the sole definition of what resistance can mean in the Elder Scrolls universe is as much "assumption" as what I say, simply using sharper words and a biting tone. Unless you personally wrote the quest, know what the lore writers for the quest were thinking about when putting that line of dialogue, or have some form of omniscience, it's opinion, not fact.

For the third, I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City. That said, the full truth of some events may never be known. The legate himself only made inference of the resistance within Hammerfell from some soldier's accounts, the book mentions nothing of the specifics of each city that fell in the south. The division between the Crown and the Forebears would certainly play a part in the easy take over, but assuming this to be some basis that Saadia couldn't have betrayed the city is minimal at best.

For the fourth, please, don't mix up concrete evidence with perception, it dillutes a fairly good argument. The Thalmor Dossier is concrete evidence of age, as it specifically notes the age range for Esbern and Delphine. You believing Saadia to look a specific age is not, in fact, concrete evidence. I thought her to be in her mid/late 40's, but that isn't concrete evidence, is it assuming her age based on the timeline of the Great War. I stated that I don't believe her to be in her fifties. I find it completely plausible for her to be 15-17 and having had some place in betraying Hammerfell, as she was both a noble and I presume her to be old enough in a high fantasy genre to do such things.

For the last two of this post, I knew I forgot something last night. I was almost sure I had written Sarcasm inbound: above the statement, as I doubted it would be conveyed well through the internet. Missed chances, I suppose.

For your second to last paragraph on the last post, I specifically mentioned that I don't believe the Alik'r warriors to be of any political connection, being the nomads I believe them to be. Unless Alik'ra still exists after the Warp, it is hard for me not to presume that they are the nomads mentioned in past text. The fact that they are from the Alik'r, and that they make use of scimitars, cuts out the reform using Forebears and Lhotuns. I also stated that I don't believe them to be Crowns as well, regardless of their traditional look.

For your last post, presuming that I have a biased male perspective of the quest as a discrediting is idiocy. Lest I know you, or you know me, there's no grounds for this. I personally didn't give a skeever's ass about Saadia's gender, I didn't trust her, and she contradicted herself upon the mention of both the Alik'r in regards to them being in the city, and the guards. I like traditional Redguards, and I felt Kematu to be the safer choice because of their curved swords. That is the simplest summary of my reasoning.

Wait, missed something. Cassynder is, if we're going by generalized blood, a quarter high elf from his Direnni mother, a quarter Imperial mish mosh, and half dunmer. Considering that one of the oldest Yokudan emperors, Randic Torn, ruled for 120 years, this is far from proving that being a Breton would give a longer life. I'll just roughly throw out the possibility that Cassynder was ten at the start of his mother's reign, he would have died at 59. I'd consider that to be fairly young for a man of long age to die, I suppose he did "age like a breton", but as I stated, I found the theory of them aging quicker to be far fetched at best. It is much more likely that they age at a similar rate to other men, as there has been no evidence of them living longer, nor aging slower.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
.... I believe that what Kematu meant by "The resistance against the Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell", is that it did not end with the signing of the treaty. Not the "average" use of terms notedly, but not entirely unbelievable when thinking of Redguard feelings in Hammerfell. I doubt that Redguards would simply shrug their shoulders at the Aldmeri with treaty in place, simply gritting their teeth at the time passed. I doubt the Redguards would have teeth at all after twenty years, if they kept that up. Taking care of loose ends would be a fair priority before any "actions" were taken, for any half-witted noble anyhow. I presume justice might have a part in it, but I'm being blunt when considering emotions here...
This is nothing more than restating your prior weak premise. To what "loose" ends would you be referring? There are no Thalmor to deal with in Hammerfell. The only way one might imagine they might otherwise "take care of loose ends" is by launching an offensive against the Aldmeri Dominion. That has absolutely nothing to do with a resistance movement. No matter what kind of semantic contortions you might want to attempt words have meaning and all the verbal acrobatics in the world won't change that.
... Arguing for the Alik'r warriors aside, we have no knowledge of what's going on in Hammerfell, it is as equally improbable that Hammerfell is utterly calm after the treaty as believing them to having something brewing, trouble in paradise if you would. To quote Carl Sagan, "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"...
So what? The point is you have no evidence. You're free to imagine what you want but as a modern physical cosmologist Martin Rees (the quote is Rees' not Sagan's) would have never refuted the notion that if you have no evidence to support a premise then it isn't a particularly persuasive one. His maxim meant that pointing at the absence of evidence in and of itself doesn't refute the possibility of a premise. As a man of science he followed the school of thought that some evidentiary basis is fundamental for a sound premise. Once again, quoting out of context serves your argument very poorly. In point of fact, it once again serves against it.
For the second part, that was me personally not seeing why it is done in such a way. I'm not a quest writer, and I will not argue with Bethesda if they make mention of such things, but the lore "faux paus" you speak of has, as I have noticed, been your belief of a character's age by personal perception of what you see her to be, an unwillingness to see Kematu's words in present tense. Unwillingness may even be the wrong word for it, I presume you simply do not draw the same conclusion that others do from the words, and I do not fault you for that.
I take what Kematu say's at face value based on known facts about the Redguard resistance. I take Saadia's appearance at a face value (no pun intended) rather than try to go out of my way to presume that she has some kind of genetic predisposition or lifestyle that makes her appear much younger than she is (as if a life constantly on the run for 25 years and working as a tavern maid is a lifestyle conducive to a stress free, healthy lifestyle). The fact of the matter is that ithe burden is on you to provide a rational basis as to why we shouldn't accept game content presented to us at face value for what it is based on the most obvious conclusions. The problem with your entire argument is that underneath its superficial trappings it's nothing more than one gigantic bootstrap. Your argument is that Bethesda didn't make a mistake in lore consistency and your rationale for not taking the content at face value and to accept the less obvious and contrived explanation of things is that Bethesda wouldn't make a mistake in lore consistency.
...it is as easy to say there is nothing going on as there is to say that such things are would not be out in the open...
My premise doesn't even require one to visit such speculative territory. Yours and yours alone requires it.
Resistance can be several things Dagmar, believing that the instance after the Great War is the sole definition of what resistance can mean in the Elder Scrolls universe is as much "assumption" as what I say, simply using sharper words and a biting tone.
It can't mean what you want it to mean unless one simply breaks from conventional and intelligible use of the term. I never said the Great War was the resistance. That's nothing more than a straw man. The resistance refers to the Redguard's resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion occupation of southern Hammerfell after the Empire recognized the Aldmeri Dominion's sovereignty over the territory. It refers to what a military resistance movement always refers to which, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseum, is the resistance to a ruling force. A ruling force which no longer exists in the form of the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell.
Unless you personally wrote the quest, know what the lore writers for the quest were thinking about when putting that line of dialogue, or have some form of omniscience, it's opinion, not fact.
Now this is what Martin Rees was talking about. A true appeal to ignorance with the complete absence of any evidence to support a counter-premise. Opinions and facts are not mutually exclusive terms so merely saying something is an "opinion" has zero weight in discourse. It's my opinion that evolution is part of science and that creationism is not. It's also fact. Some opinions have truth value to them based on their basis in facts while others don't for their notable absence of the same. I've cited facts to support my position. You have not. The foundation of your argument is based on speculation.
...For the third, I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City. That said, the full truth of some events may never be known. The legate himself only made inference of the resistance within Hammerfell from some soldier's accounts, the book mentions nothing of the specifics of each city that fell in the south...
More quoting out of context:
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers. I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City. That said, the full truth of some events may never be known. I have done my best to fill in the gaps with educated conjectures based on my experience as well as my hard-earned knowledge of the enemy.
Justius Quintus was there for the first five years of the Great War fighting in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. There's no reason to doubt the accuracy of his accounting when he states that Lady Arannelya's armies vastly outnumbered the Imperial Legion and the Redguard forces outside of the Legion. When he is engaging in conjecture he makes it clear by using conditional language:
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
...It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis...
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
...Most scholars believe there was some sort of internal strife in Alinor, but very little is known of the factional struggles that went on inside the Dominion while the Thalmor consolidated its power in Summerset and Valenwood...
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
...The Thalmor announced that they had restored the moons using previously unknown Dawn Magicks, but it is unclear if they truly restored the moons or just took advantage of foreknowledge that they would return...
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
...Lord Naarifin was kept alive for thirty-three days, hanging from the White-Gold tower. It is not recorded where his body was buried, if it was buried at all. Once source claims he was carried off by a winged daedra on the thirty-fourth day...
One doesn't need to hear an exact description of how the specific cities fell to vastly overwhelming forces to realize that it was inevitable. That's simply common sense. Kematu states that Saadia's role was determinative. But for her actions, Taneth would have never fallen. At best that's what one would describe as delusionally optimistic. I never said that Crown and Forebear rivalries had anything to do with the fall of Taneth. That's simply another straw man. I simply said that it's possible that there may be more to the story than either Saadia or Kematu are willing to reveal to the player character. It was simply a tangential observation about the quest that has nothing to do with the premise that the quest is inconsistent with the lore/timeline of the Elder Scrolls universe.
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
For the fourth, please, don't mix up concrete evidence with perception, it dillutes a fairly good argument. The Thalmor Dossier is concrete evidence of age, as it specifically notes the age range for Esbern and Delphine.
Delphine's age isn't at issue here. To the extent that age is even relevant regarding introducing Delphine into the argument it's her apparent age.
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
You believing Saadia to look a specific age is not, in fact, concrete evidence.
It is if you actually understood what I stated. It's concrete evidence of her apparent age. This was already pointed out to you before and it was never refuted because it isn't refutable. The fact is that Bethesda clearly created specific face textures for apparent ages as evidenced by how they named those textures. Whether it means that characters are supposed to be that age when the texture is applied to them is debatable. Whether it means that is how they are meant to be perceived in terms of physical aging regardless of chronological age is not. In other words if Bethesda put an age 40 face texture on a character it may not mean that Bethesda is asserting that the character is in their forties but it sure as hell means the character is meant to look like they are in their forties. Similarly if Bethesda puts the default young adult face texture on a character it means the character is meant to look like a young adult regardless of their chronological age. As I previously stated, the onus is on you to refute the obvious interpretation of her appearance and there's nothing objective in the game, like the Thalmor Dossier on Delphine, to support the notion.
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
Cassynder is, if we're going by generalized blood, a quarter high elf from his Direnni mother, a quarter Imperial mish mosh, and half dunmer.
Cassynder is a Breton, period. It's well established by both lore and game content that the offspring of parents of two different races of the playable races are of one or the other, not a hybrid. Pelagius III took his father's race not his mother's, which is Breton (as confirmed in the game Skyrim). Cassynder took his father's race as well which is why Volume 2 of the Brief History of the Empire says he aged like a Breton and not a Dunmer.
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
Considering that one of the oldest Yokudan emperors, Randic Torn, ruled for 120 years, this is far from proving that being a Breton would give a longer life.
Randic Torn isn't necessarily an exemplar of the average lifespan for his race anymore than Divayth Fyr (over four thousand years) is an exemplar of the average lifespan for a Dunmer. Both were legendary among their race and both utilized supernatural powers
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion by Legate Justius Quintus said:
It is much more likely that they age at a similar rate to other men, as there has been no evidence of them living longer, nor aging slower.
There is not much evidence but this subject has been revisited to great lengths in forums at UESP and Bethesda and, as I previously stated, the overall consensus has been that it is likely that Bretons are longer lived than other races of men because of their Merish bloodline although most believe it is only by a few decades. Still that would be enough to explain Delphine's youthful appearance at 50.

The facts remain that as a Breton, Delphine makes for a bad choice as a counterexample because of this ambiguity. Further it's also largely irrelevant because all that means is that she is older than she looks because you have specific content that clearly established her age that allows you to draw that conclusion. There is no such content for Saadia, only your conjecture.

Nothing you've stated has changed the fact that my premise only requires you to accept things at face value while yours requires you to engage in speculation about phantom lore.
 
I'm currently on the In My Time of Need quest.

Saadia the redguard woman in Whiterun asked me to track down Kematu and kill him. I'm up to the point where I've located him, but he's given me the option of helping him capture Saadia instead (she's a supposed traitor).

Does anybody know what advantages or future repercussions may arise from either option (killing Kematu or helping him capture Saadia)? I don't want to find myself later in game thinking to myself "Drat... wish I hadn't done that."



LOL.. I killed the Alik'r then killed the woman. Both sides are either telling the truth or spitting out lies so yea..
 

-Mir-

Professional milk-drinker
Well, for me, I helped Saadia, though now I regret it because I think Kematu has a more believable argument, and he just talked to me calmly at first, instead of pulling a dagger on me. Here's what I think:

Helping Kematu-
Pro- no one has to die since Saadia just gets paralyzed
-seems like she will get a fair trial and everyone has a happy ending?
Con- you are betraying her trust and going against your original promise
-get less monetary reward

Helping Saadia-
Pro- I got hella curved swords to distribute to all the happy Whiterun guards
-more body loot and you get money from Saadia
-more combat experience/possible level-up
Con- The super annoying Alik'r always stay at the Whiterun gates now and get in the way
-Saadia is basically trapped and surrounded instead of free
-The Alik'r still keep interrogating random innocent redguard women
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
If you agree to help Kematu you can still kill him at the Stables before he paralyzes Saadia and get Saadia's reward and the bugged Alik'r won't show up in Whiterun.
 

Wezmond

New Member
Gotta add something to this. I've played through several times now, helping both of them, and never wronging a Thalmor. When I've helped Kematu I've been attacked by a Thalmor execution squad - WITHOUT ANY OTHER PROVOCATION. This has never happened to me when I've helped Saadia. This is enough to convince me Kematu is telling the truth.

This event is also referenced in the Trivia section here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/In_My_Time_of_Need
 

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