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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Discussion in 'General Skyrim Discussion' started by EvilCrazyCows, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    Same can be said of Stormcloak supporters, one of them who is the brother of Galmar Stone-Fist. Two of them threatening a Dark Elf because they do not fight for the Stormcloaks, hinting at possibly torturing her to make her talk because they accuse her of being an Imperial spy. He also goes around the Gray-Quarter yelling insults in the early hours of the morning.
     
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  2. ShangTsung

    ShangTsung Active Member

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    even faringar the whiterun court wizard gets pissed when you ask him about siding with the legion and refuses to talk about it, so don't even try that claim.. Jarl Balgruf is as much an enemy to Ulfric as the imperials themselves, and i'm aware there are redguards in whiterun, just as there are elves in windhelm, make sense man..
     
  3. Stormcrown

    Stormcrown Member

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    The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction

    Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".
    • The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
    • Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.
    First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

    1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

    First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

    2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

    All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

    3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

    This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

    Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

    http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

    "Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

    This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

    Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

    Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

    http://forums.bethso...elm/?p=22588230


    Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.



    Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.



    Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High King”-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.

    An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

    http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2A_5kBJduIg

    For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

    People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

    A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

    This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

    Also: http://forums.bethso...-me/?p=22498185


    Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.


    Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/...ear_of_Markarth

    First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

    The prisoners don't even say Ulfric's name in Markarth, and as Tdroid said, the Jarl contradicts this book and even says he's the one who caused all this.


    http://forums.bethso...no3/?p=22397367


    And speaking of Markarth, for people saying Ulfric started the whole Talos ban enforcement because of the Markarth incident, you're wrong. Talk to the Jarl. He admits he came to Ulfric and asked for his assistance, and he offered HIM Talos worship, not the other way around. And when the Thalmor found out, Ulfric was left holding the bag.
     
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  4. ShangTsung

    ShangTsung Active Member

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    so both sides have animosity towards supporters of the opposing army... WHATS YOUR POINT!!?? lol
     
  5. Jei El

    Jei El We will be avenged.

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    You're arguing with a mage, a drunken one at that. Your argument is invalid.
     
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  6. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    I am making as much sense as I humanly can? Perhaps if I say this;

    Big city in the center of the land, the one with the horsey picture, it is yellow, not red or blue.
     
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  7. ShangTsung

    ShangTsung Active Member

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    you're right, i suppose it is pointless to list facts considering he will just continue to make stuff up to falsely back up his claim.. it just drives me nuts how you imperial guys try to make out how the stormcloaks are such horrible guys just cause they don't appreciate being slaves to another race, stevie wonder could see the stormcloaks are the "good guys" in this story, yall make no freakin sense! i could say more but i won't..
     
  8. Stormcrown

    Stormcrown Member

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    I hope people read my long post,Some good arguments from ColonalKillabee from bethsoft forums.
     
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  9. Jei El

    Jei El We will be avenged.

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    So, you're telling me when Ulfric denies help to Khajiit caravans being attack in HIS HOLD that's good? Do you not realize that the Dunmer life in slums, because Ulfric refuses better for them? Do you realize that my own race, the Argonians are denied any other jobs except dock workers? Yes, those points totally make Ulfric and his stupid followers good.
     
  10. Anouck

    Anouck Queen of Procrastination

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    What exactly did he make up? :confused:
    I can post links to UESP that back up his arguments... Everything he said so far were facts...
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    I'm making stuff up to falsely back up my claim? On the subject if Whiterun was neutral and that Hold Guards are not Imperial Legionnaires. Well geez, I must be making that all up, who'd have thought Hold Guards were Legionnaires and that Whiterun was never neutral.

    It drives me nuts when people ramble on something about what I have posted when I provide a post nearly close to yours about the Supporters in Windhelm, you say "So whats your point?" Well what is your point about the Battle-Borns, they are a Nord family, not the Empire. As for everything else.

     
  12. ShangTsung

    ShangTsung Active Member

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    like i said, you just favor the imperials for some odd reason and have managed to start a fanclub of them by posting false info about the stormcloaks and NEVER posting how the few falts they do have, the imperials have ten fold.
    you claim the stromcloaks have this unbridled hatred for elves, yet their stronghold is full of them and even my character IS one "a wood elf" and is a full fledged stormcloak.. FAIL.
    you claim Ulfric is a thalmor puppet, Ulfric despises the thalmor cause they tortured him nearly to death.. AND the imperials follow the thalmor NOT the stormcloaks, who are the real thalmor puppets? FAIL.
    i'm also guessing you don't believe in freedom of religion, since you favor the legion on this game so hardcore, speaks of your person but i won't even go there... FAIL.
    you're hopeless, this conversation is over.
     
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  13. Jei El

    Jei El We will be avenged.

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    That's because you're Dovahkiin, who wouldn't want one?
     
  14. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

    Your insults have little effect. I actually prefer the Stormcloak quest line, I always kill Legionnaires in Skyrim.
     
  15. Stormcrown

    Stormcrown Member

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    Imperials in a nutshell: You will give me everything and I will give you nothing.

    I will also replace your culture and customs, and force you to adhere to ours. Got any leaders of your own? We will replace them with leaders that have our interests at heart, and any traditional election you may have will be rigged to our favor. You will obey all of OUR laws and all of OUR customs. Sway from this, and we will crush you. Capice?
     
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  16. Anouck

    Anouck Queen of Procrastination

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    To be honest I think this is very rude..
    The only thing I find 'hopeless' is attacking people personal because they don't agree with you.

    ..Just my 2 cents..
     
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  17. ragnar silver-blade

    ragnar silver-blade New Member

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    Stormcloaks imperials they both have good militaristic forces yet I side with the stormcloaks because I was imprisoned by the empire and nearly beheaded by the empire and because the legion barely did anything during the oblivion crisis except for the battle of kavatch but other than that they were useless they banned talos they let the thalmor defeat them and they let the aldmeri dominion run things. Stormcloaks however are fighting for their people they warred with the elves for thousands of years the nords built the empire with their blood and they have more courage than many others who fear the thalmor. The empire is weakened the stormcloaks plan to bring the fight to the dominion and for those who say one land cant take on the dominion look at the redguards
     
  18. ShangTsung

    ShangTsung Active Member

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    *face palms* i'm NOT insulting you m8! if anything i'm merely attempting to get you to listen to yourself so that maybe you'll see that you're not as "RIGHT" about this story as you think you are..
    let me give you an example so perhaps you'll understand why this is so insulting to some, and this is the last post i'm making on the topic tonight cause this is getting ridicules.. i am a christian, a follower of Christ, have been since i was a kid, i'm not perfect by any means but i try my best to serve our heavenly Father to the absolute best of my abilities.. now imagine if our nation was invaded one day, the US army defeated, and these guys told us that any worshipping of our Lord was now punishable by death, would you side with them? the story of this game is basically that in a nut shell, just in a fantasy world.. and THAT is why you sound so cruel by having this hardcore respect for a legion that according to the story wishes to make illegal the common religious practices.
    understand? ;)
     
  19. Jei El

    Jei El We will be avenged.

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    Life is a waterfall
    We’re one in the river
    And one again after the fall

    Swimming through the void
    We hear the word
    We lose ourselves but we find it all

    'Cause we are the ones that want to play
    Always want to go
    But you never want to stay

    And we are the ones that want to choose
    Always want to play
    But you never want to lose

    Aerials in the sky
    When you lose small mind
    You free your life

    Life is a waterfall
    We drink from the river
    Then we turn around and put up our walls

    Swimming through the void
    We hear the word
    We lose ourselves but we find it all

    'Cause we are the ones that want to play
    Always want to go
    But you never want to stay

    We are the ones that want to choose
    Always want to play
    But you never want to lose

    Aerials in the sky
    When you lose small mind
    You free your life

    Aerials, so up high
    When you free your eyes
    Eternal prize

    Aerials in the sky
    When you lose small mind
    You free your life

    Aerials, so up high
    When you free your eyes
    Eternal prize
     
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  20. Docta Corvina

    Docta Corvina Well-Known Member

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    It's not just that. It's been my experience that it gets personal whenever they're out of things to say - no matter how substantive (or not) those things were.
     
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