1. Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!
    Dismiss Notice

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Discussion in 'General Skyrim Discussion' started by EvilCrazyCows, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Daelon DuLac

    Daelon DuLac How do you backstab a Dragon?

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Messages:
    7,955
    Likes Received:
    1,957
    Reputation:
    2,225
    I'm also a little confused by their attitude as it does not seem in keeping with Nords historically speaking.
     
  2. Jurgarik Greycloak

    Jurgarik Greycloak Techno master of Tamriel.

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    664
    Likes Received:
    45
    Reputation:
    196
    I would say that depends on your definition of 'Historical'. I do find it kind of confusing since they talk about freedom of religion, but they do not seem to care about anyone but Talos, who they do have in THEIR OWN pantheon under the name Ysmir.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Ancano

    Ancano High Justiciar

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    64
    Reputation:
    222
    Hi, Ancano here.

    My oh my, it's been awhile since I've visited this place. In my copious spare time over the years, from time to time I revisit this topic, sometimes watching opinion pieces that other people have posted on YouTube. While I am not here to drudge up the past, as I know initially this was a rather heated topic, as odd as it may sound I did consider something recently that might be helpful.

    As some of you know or may have guessed, I've successfully defend every side in this conflict. Even still, I felt kinda bad about it. For example, Ulfric is not pure evil, neither is Tullius and neither are the Thalmor really. Once you get to understand the lore behind these characters you start to see things in a different way. With that said, I felt, that I never really and truly answered this question. So, I finally MacGyver'd a method for doing just that. For reaching a decision regarding the Civil War in a clean manner, one without duress and/or ugly narratives and personal attacks.

    It's really simple. Before I go there, let me briefly set the table for you. If this were the real world and one of us went thru a Helgen type scenario, you have to call it from where you're at. As almost certainly being a renegade (from someone), yet also now being in Skyrim, you have to make some decisions. Think of this like one of those, "Alternate Start Mods" for Skyrim which put you in different scenarios. Although, with this you are going to that scenario. So in other words, you barely live thru Helgen, fighting thru either a small fleeing band of Imperial soldiers/staff or an angry mob of Stormcloak rebels. At the end, you make it out with the 'clothes' on your bag and all you got is what you got - set to start your life over in Skyrim. With that said, I think it's fair to consider the concept of, "the land and the people being one in the same" as something that fits well with Skyrim and it's culture, history etc. And that's where the solution is found here.

    Basically, you have to take politics out of the equation. Completely. Forget about what Jarl Ulfric and General Tullius are and represent. Seriously. Politics in this game are just as nasty as real life and yet we carry on with our lives. We only fight over politics when it affects our lives, we don't always go to war over a corrupt law or official.

    So with all that said, the solution is to drop politics from the argument and just consider a few things:

    1) Where in Skyrim would you like to live and work?
    2) Which city in Skyrim do you prefer to live?
    3) Which Nord Jarl do you follow?

    Go with whatever faction is most applicable to the above questions. I've tried this on a couple people, as well as my own way of thinking and it seems to work well. Once you get that information down the "party affiliation" will come along with it. For example, there's no sense hating the Democrat Party if you live in CA. Same thing for the Democrats in TX.

    You cannot change the party or it's platform, all you can do is decide what is best for you. And the rest will take care of itself.
     
    #21023 Ancano, Oct 11, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  4. Gandalf Stormbinder

    Gandalf Stormbinder Empty cop cars are just scarecrows for people.

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Reputation:
    48
    Sorry for being years late to the party:
    Throughout my playing and replaying Skyrim over the past few years, I've played both sides of the coin, but I usually choose the Imperial Legion more often than not, because one, I get better armor and weapons as a Legionnaire versus as a Stormcloak Rebel and two, the Nords are racist as all hell towards Non-Nords, but Legionnaire Nords don't seem to care if you are not a Nord. I happen to like Hadvar, he feels bad that his superior officer pretty much signs your life away even though you are not on the list and are obviously not a Stormcloak Rebel. Hadvar even apologizes and mentions making sure your remains (if you were executed) are returned to your homeland. Ralof seems to care less about you and vanishes for a bit after telling you to jump into a burning building. Hadvar, on the other hand, tells you to stay close to him if you want to stay alive, meaning that he will do what he can to protect you. After escaping Helgen, if you walk with Hadvar (despite his saying that you should probably split up), he admits that he knew that you shouldn't have been on that cart with the other prisoners. He even tells you that if other Legionnaires encounter the two of you on the way to Riverwood, to allow him to do the talking, pretty much in order to protect you. Ralof, seemed to me to only care about himself and you were merely an afterthought.
    I also prefer the Legion due to my dislike of Ulfric. Sure, he was considered a Hero to some and a legend to many, but the fact remains that he murdered the High King, regardless of challenging Torygg to a duel. I scoured Skyrim and learned that Torygg actually admired Ulfric and likely would have been willing to peacefully talk everything out, but Ulfric murdered him to, as Ulfric admits, prove a point to the other Jarls about what happens to those who oppose Ulfric. I personally see Ulfric Stormcloak as being a power-hungry individual who doesn't give a crap about anyone but himself and his rise to power. He literally waves off most concerns that don't directly effect him. He is so busy trying to bully his way to power, that he doesn't really seem to care about anything else going on such as the Dragon Crisis. I went out of my way to speak to many NPCs in Skyrim about their own thoughts of the Civil War, even Ulfric supporters admit that they believed he murdered Toyrgg and that the High King would have been willing to listen to Ulfric, but Ulfric wanted to be High King and was willing to do whatever it took to get there. I admit, his whole speech about wanting to wait for the Moot to appoint him High King was a brilliant move. Ulfric knew that many would still oppose his claim to the throne and his speech made it seem to opposers that he wasn't as power-hungry as the Legion claimed. Remember the first official Civil War quest? Retrieving the Jagged Crown? Ulfric wanted that crown because he believed that possessing it would make the other Jarls more likely to bend to him because he had an ancient symbol of the High King. His decision to keep Elisif as Jarl of Solitude was also a brilliant move, because he knew that not only killing another Jarl was bad for his image, but the fact that she was Torygg's widow would have made the situation worse. If he had killed Elisif, there would have been no doubt, even amongst his supporters, that he was a power-hungry murderer.
    Sure, the Empire is not as strong as they once were, after the Oblivion Crisis and the Great War, it's to be expected. I also personally don't like Titus Mede II and I believe that his assassination opened the way for a better, more competent Emperor. Skyrim is only one Province and the Stormcloak Rebels lack in quite a few areas, including manpower and supplies. Maybe if the Stormcloaks were lead by someone else and had better equipment and more manpower, they might, MIGHT be able to face the Dominion. From what I could tell, through my travels around Skyrim, the Empire and the Dominion were actually at a stalemate when Titus Mede agreed to the terms of the treaty to avoid more bloodshed. Afterwards, the events of the Markarth Incident and Ulfric's actions drew the attention of the Dominion. They had, up to that point, largely been ignoring what was going on in Skyrim, but Ulfric decided to make a fuss when the Empire was forced to renege on the deal that Markarth's Karl made with him, which broke the terms of the treaty, and thus, the Thalmor ended up in Skyrim. I think that if Ulfric had quietly admitted defeat, metaphorically, and returned to Windhelm, the Thalmor wouldn't currently be running amok in Skyrim. Ulfric's actions led to Thalmor presence in Skyrim and in his mad dash for power, the people he claims to love and wants to protect are now suffering from the war and the Empire is wasting resources trying to quell the rebellion. Ulfric himself was a Legionnaire Officer, he knew exactly what the consequences of his little rebellion would cause, but he doesn't care. All he wants is to be High King and his repeated actions prove that he is simply power-hungry. He deludes himself into thinking that he would be better High King and that an independent Skyrim could stand against the Dominion. So, what happens if the Dominion becomes larger and more powerful? Skyrim is screwed. As many NPCs say, a united Empire is better for everyone. If the Empire regains its strength and reunites the territories it lost after the Oblivion Crisis and the Great War, they would have a better chance of beating back the Dominion, who only has 3 provinces out of 9 under their control. If the other 6 provinces unite with the Empire, either permanently or temporarily, the Dominion would be outnumbered. However, even an independent Skyrim or Hammerfell fighting against the Dominion is not enough, they are still outnumbered. Ulfric isn't looking at the big picture. He wants only what he wants and what would benefit HIM the most. Therefore, I usually side with the Empire. Also, my current character is an Altmer Battlemage who is a Legate in the Imperial Legion and who openly worships Talos and is an 850 year old Vampire Lord.
    Sorry for being so long winded.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Gandalf Stormbinder

    Gandalf Stormbinder Empty cop cars are just scarecrows for people.

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Reputation:
    48
    As an added side:

    I also have a problem with Vignar Gray-Mane as Jarl if you side with the Stormcloaks. The man not only allowed those who once called him friend be slaughtered, but he clearly doesn't care that much about Whiterun. In all my Stormcloak aligned plauthroughs, the man barely sits on the throne and wanders the city aimlessly instead of spending most of his time in court like a Jarl is supposed to.
    In that same vein, I sorely dislike Maven Black-Briar as Jarl of Riften. She's hateful to everyone and is not above having people murdered for so much as questioning her. Sure, the Thieves Guild relies on her (though, now that they are re-established with a better Guildmaster, because I usually always join and rebuild them), they can honestly tell her to go fornicate herself. Her actions and her attitude shows that she is not capable of being in any sort of position of power, let alone Jarl of an entire hold. Plus, Black-Briar Mead is pure swill. Jarl Laila is much better suited as Jarl and unlike Maven, will allow you to become Thane once you help a great deal in the hold. I found out that Maven refuses to name the Dragonborn Thane of Riften because she thinks the Dragonborn would be a threat to her throne. I cannot stand that witch regardless of what side I take or even if I join the Guild. Honestly, if I could, after the Thieves Guild quest that involves her, I'd kill her and I guarantee that pretty much everyone will cheer.
    The other replacement Jarls I don't have much of an issue with, well maybe that Silver-Blood Asshat who is pretty much the Maven of Markarth.
    Ah, if I only I could become High King or even perhaps Emperor, I'd be a just and fair ruler. Except with a dragon army. Let's see the Dominion fight a dragon army.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Latest Given Reputation Points:
    Daelon DuLac: 48 Points (Very well said and supported. Only one small thing. I LOVE Maven. She's my kind of gal.) Oct 14, 2019
  6. Gandalf Stormbinder

    Gandalf Stormbinder Empty cop cars are just scarecrows for people.

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Reputation:
    48
    I've been reading this thread from the beginning of it, (almost 2 days of reading!) and I noticed a few arguments that made me read up on Elder Scrolls lore again:

    Okay, so Ulfric goes to Solitude to, as we are all aware, to kill Torygg. Ulfric issues a challenge to the High King and according to what I read, the High King CANNOT refuse a duel issued by a Jarl without the challenger being allowed to call a new Moot to meet.
    Essentially, Ulfric issues a challenge to Torygg, knowing that if he is refused, he can call for a new Moot to meet and possibly remove Torygg from the throne.
    Torygg, however, accepts the challenger, even knowing that Ulfric is older, more experienced, and a veteran of the Great War and would likely lose.
    Now, this is treading into speculation, so bear with me:
    I believe that Torygg was either unaware that Ulfric had the ability to Shout, or if he did, he expected it to be a duel with swords only. Still, he knew that he would likely lose, maybe even believing that Ulfric would merely defeat him, but not kill him. (The duel wasn't mentioned as being to the death, but not every duel is to the death, plus from the little information we have about it, Torygg thought Ulfric came to talk instead of fight, so Torygg was in no way prepared.) According to Ulfric himself, he Shouted the High King to the ground. At this point, Torygg was helpless and likely lost his weapon. In mere seconds, he lost the fight. Ulfric's point, the one he initially claims he intended to make, was made. He had bested the High King and proven that he couldn't defend himself, so how could he defend Skyrim? Now, this is where things become divided: according to the witnesses that day and from Torygg's own mouth when encountered in Sovngarde, Ulfric killed him with his Thu'um. According to Ulfric himself and his Stormcloaks, who aren't exactly mentioned as being there, claim that as Torygg lay there upon the ground, helpless, Ulfric stabbed him in the heart.
    In my honest opinion, that was unnecessary and overkill. Torygg was already defeated and helpless. By ancient tradition, an emergency Moot can be called to replace the bested High King with Ulfric. The tradition, at least from what I read, doesn't state that the High King has to be killed, it only states that he has to be bested.
    However, if one goes into the Palace of the Kings and listens to dialogue between Ulfric and Galmar Stone-Fist, Ulfric tells Galmar that Torygg was simply a message to the other Jarls.
    To me, that sounds like Ulfric simply killed the High King to intimidate the Jarls who did not or would not support his claim to the throne by showing them that he was willing to kill them to be crowned. That sounds an awful lot like murder.
    I also noticed people debating about the legality of Ulfric using a Shout against Torygg and whether it was agreed upon. In my opinion, I don't think that the terms of the duel were stated as it was rather sudden instead of arranged in advance like most duels. They COULD have been, but whether or not using the Thu'um in the duel was legal, I believe that killing Torygg after he was already defeated was overkill and why most people within Skyrim view it as being murder as well as pretty much High Treason. Not to mention the fact that Ulfric flees Solitude immediately afterwards does not paint a picture of a man who was completely within his legal right. Had he simply defeated Torygg, but not killed him, he would have been able to immediately demand an emergency Moot instead of fleeing the city and being branded a murderer.
    Honestly, if I challenged someone to a duel, even a legal one, killed my opponent and then fled, I'd look guilty as all hell and be branded a murderer as well. However, if I simply defeated and disarmed my opponent and didn't flee, I more than likely wouldn't be accused of a crime. To me, the killing blow combined with his flight back to the safety of his hold was not a bright move on his part. That being said, I believe that Ulfric is a great military leader, but a poor ruler. Thus, more often than not, I side with the Empire, despite an asshat of a Captain sentencing me to death although my name wasn't on their list. In fact, I tend to avoid Windhelm as much as possible except when I need to go there or I am adopting poor Sophie so she no longer has to sleep in the snow.
     
  7. Ancano

    Ancano High Justiciar

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    64
    Reputation:
    222
    The thing about Ulfric (and I'm not bashing the guy for being him) is the game does not answer the lingering doubts it creates concerning his actual intentions.

    So to his discredit, everyone who listens to him and learns about him is left with making some hard decisions. Unless you're someone who is totally against Imperialism or the like. It would make things much easier for them to just answer some of our questions however we're left guessing. It's bad if you're pro-Stormcloak for that reason and it's bad if you're against that party because it's difficult to choose what grounds to fight them on. To fight their agenda.

    That's why I think I'm on to something. No credit, no one's glad to see me back, I know, I know. I'll go now and you guys can be in charge again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Ancano

    Ancano High Justiciar

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    64
    Reputation:
    222
    Oh, before I do go, Welcome Mr Gandalf. While I do find your assessment of the Sky7rim Civil War and Ulfric's history interesting, please remember that punctuation is yo friend. Sometimes it's not what we're saying as much as how we say it, or how you say it as I have way too much experience writing these posts and don't have a problem organizing my thoughts or ideas. It's just no one likes them.

    And in the last few posts you sir have made your viewpoint difficult and unruly to read, much less review for content accuracy.

    Although you may not wish to hear this, especially from me, it's sad I had to be the one to tell it to you. Giving points and rep is one thing however it's another to actually try and help someone convey their message, to let someone know something is an issue. That's a real friend, don't get anything for it though.
     
    #21028 Ancano, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  9. Gandalf Stormbinder

    Gandalf Stormbinder Empty cop cars are just scarecrows for people.

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Reputation:
    48
    My apologies, I wrote most of that at 4am in my notepad and then posted it on here.
     
  10. Ancano

    Ancano High Justiciar

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    64
    Reputation:
    222
    We write when we feel like writing - true. However in order for our message to have any meaning we must also consider our audience.
     
  11. Jurgarik Greycloak

    Jurgarik Greycloak Techno master of Tamriel.

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    664
    Likes Received:
    45
    Reputation:
    196
    @Ancano I do not think you can really take politics out of this discussion. I, personally, would not follow a Jarl who I do not politically agree with. For example, If I lived in Riften, I would not follow Laila Law-Giver because she is a blind moron. She does not see that she actually has no power in Riften to do ANYTHING, but I would not follow Maven Black-Briar either because she is ruthless and would likely make life miserable for anyone who does not blindly accept her rule. It is inherently political because to Follow a Jarl is to support the decisions they make as ruler of the hold you live in.

    That is why I originally did not say anything about it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Daelon DuLac

    Daelon DuLac How do you backstab a Dragon?

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Messages:
    7,955
    Likes Received:
    1,957
    Reputation:
    2,225
    I follow the strong. If I cannot rule myself, at least the strong will make it work. Work w/Maven and she will not let you down. F*** w/her and you will die. I like that. Rules to live by.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Ancano

    Ancano High Justiciar

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    64
    Reputation:
    222
    You just said it. :)

    You've chosen the city and the place however can't decide on the Jarl yet (ie local politics). While your choice matters, esp to you, you don't have to choose in order to live and work there. Stormcloaks could win the war and it would not have an affect on the fact that the city and region of Riften will still be there. Two out of three.

    By default, you are a Stormcloak citizen and part of your taxes goto Windhelm to help fund the war effort. Someone else can decide the politics. Doesn't change the fact the people of that region chose to go along with Laila and Ulfric - regardless of them. Do you see this?
     
    #21033 Ancano, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  14. Ancano

    Ancano High Justiciar

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    64
    Reputation:
    222
    As much as you and I have disagreed on some things you are right here. Maven runs that city anyways so logically it's her city regardless. :)
     

Share This Page

  • Like us on Facebook