I just can't do it!

[Lewsean]

The "Stormcloaks" are together in their support of Ulfric for High King, but the rest of their ideologies/reasons for fighting are different.

Precisely.. Which is why not joining the Stormcloaks because of "racism" is silly. It's a rebellion, people who rebel are generally pissed off, if some feel the Dark Elves aren't pulling their weight they are entitled to feel that way, especially when one of the people who you initially see hating on Dark Elves is a man who took a sword to the chest whilst fighting a group of Imperials to save his men.

I don't care about the Stormcloaks being racist, it isn't that hard to see they're focused on Nords and frankly do not care about other races.

And that is where the philosophical/ideological reasons come in for each faction, I personally see nothing wrong with wanting to put your people before outsiders. The Empire put Cyrodill before Hammerfell in the war, Ulfric feels he is putting Skyrim before the interests of Cyrodill.

Why? There are plenty of racists in Tamriel who don't go to complete extremes. You can dislike, distrust and not go into someone's shop, but it is up to the Jarls to close them all down. There are Dunmer in Windhelm who hate Nords, and are racist in the exact same way the Ulfric's supporters of Windhelm are, yet you use them as an example in the past. You can't have it both ways, and there is hatred on both sides.

Because it's not racism.. That word is used in a context that simply does not fit the world of Nirn.

People can avoid those shops, such as the case in Whiterun where two businesses are suffering. Expecting the Stormcloak aligned Holds to issue a decree banning all non-Nords this early in the war is a stretch.

It's not a stretch if people claim they hold racist ideals. This is the bit that gets me. Stormcloaks are apparently dumb racists, but not dumb or racist enough to let it effect them?

You're looking for blanket racism, when this is more specific. The people of Windhelm have more interaction with the Dunmer, and there are those who would view a large ethnic group living in a run down slum with disdain.

Which, again, shows it's not faction wide Stormcloak racism but hatred born of other circumstances specific to that hold.

Taken by the dialogue of NPC's, most of them do not work at all and do nothing but sit in the New Gnisis Cornerclub.

Which dialogue? The only dialogue mentioning the Cornerclub is the fact it isn't called an Inn or Tavern. All of the Dunmer work, even the ones who hate the Nords.

Those same Argonians are drug addicted thieves. There's no problem with Argonians in Riften, which again, proves Stormcloaks are NOT racist.

They don't know that, and they're not all skooma addicts.

What happens in Ulfric's city, doesn't mean it must happen in every other city. Riften is supporting Ulfric's bid for High King, it does not mean they must now banish their resident Argonians.
[/quote]
If Stormcloaks are racists, then yes it does...

: "Madesi, why don't you just take a bed here? There's no need to sleep in Beggar's Row."
Madesi: "The cold stone, the dampness... it suits me, Svana."
Svana: "Are you sure that's the real reason? It wouldn't have anything to do with others making an Argonian unwelcome, because if it is..."
Madesi: "You have a kind heart; much too kind for Riften. Don't worry about me, I'll be just fine."

It is besides the point though, you were arguing the Holds are independent and merely fealty and now expect them all the be the exact same. Ulfric isn't King yet.

They are independent, and with diverse citizens. I'm not expecting anything, just pointing out how ridiculous it is to claim a whole faction is based around racism when which either way you cut it, it simply isn't the case. You've said yourself Ulfric doesn't share the views of his men, making the racist argument irrelevant whether Ulfric is King or not, whether Holds do exactly as he says or not.

No they don't, they believe Ulfric should be High King. Not once do they call Ulfric king, and any who speak about Ulfric say they want him on the throne of Skyrim. The Moot has not met, and Ulfric has not claimed any title.

Doesn't matter which way you try to spin it lol, the Jarls are loyal to a man who refuses to acknowledge Imperial authority.. Making said authority moot in these holds.

No he wasn't, the nobility feared him. After Sancre Tor and he won over a nordic army, others would flock to his banner due to promises of wealth and glory. He forced their surrender, they didn't just join him without bloodshed.

They joined him because of who he was and what he was.

Why wouldn't Nords surrender? I get you like Nords, but they're not mindless brutes with every single one being "death or glory".

Most are and most do want a honourable death/life to go to Sovngarde. There's no glory in surrender, hence why the Civil War has half of Skyrim's support.

Such as Tullius not knowing Sovngarde? Imperials aren't really about race, considering how secular and diverse the Empire is. Though technically speaking "Imperial" refers to anyone who is a citizen of the Empire. You do get bigots in every race, but a race isn't a faction and you seem to keep viewing the Stormcloaks as the Nords.

Aye, and claims that without the Empire the Nords would basically tear themselves apart. Tullius having a "new found respect" for Nords after butchering them, I mean, it's not like he would've saw Nords fighting to the last to save the Imperial City and saw something in them there..

"I'm here to show Bruma's errant Nords the path to the true faith. They must put aside their heathen gods and worship the Nine."
"I'm new here in Bruma myself. I'm from down Heartland way. Nords up here... no offense...don't work as hard as us Imperial Heartlanders."
"I'm Captain Burd, commander of the Bruma Guard. I make sure my guards treat the local Nords and their ways with respect."
"As Captain Burd says, we have to stay on the good side of the local Nords. It ain't their fault they're ignorant barbarians."

They weren't told to govern themselves, that quote is first seen in the TES novels. It refers only to Solstheim. That has nothing at all to do with Windhelm, and if you think any Jarl in their right mind would make a third of their city independent...

"Untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor." -Skyrim's Offer of Solstheim to Morrowind, 4E 16

The Gray Quarter is theirs.. Besides, the Quarter its self (That is also home to Nords, lol..) is in relatively good condition, it's inside where things may look worse off and if I;m not mistaken, you look after and maintain your own house lmao, you don't get somebody else to do it for you... Who is to blame for holes in the floor of the Free-Winter household? The act of them trying in any way to recreate a little piece of Morrowind within Windhelm just shows their disrespect for Nord culture in a very historic city like Windhelm, which holds the throne of Ysgramor himself.
It's ironic, a people who have spent their whole lives living under some deluded bubble that they are superior to everybody else, that slavery is a divine right to their race are now having to come to terms with the fact that they aren't special anymore. It's no wonder most are so bitter, especially when now they seek refuge from those who they view near the very bottom of the ladder.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Precisely.. Which is why not joining the Stormcloaks because of "racism" is silly. It's a rebellion, people who rebel are generally pissed off, if some feel the Dark Elves aren't pulling their weight they are entitled to feel that way, especially when one of the people who you initially see hating on Dark Elves is a man who took a sword to the chest whilst fighting a group of Imperials to save his men.

Not joining the Stormcloaks because of how they interact with other races is still a valid reason on joining. People are entitled to feel how they like, but it doesn't mean it is always right or people will agree. The Stormcloaks do still represent Ulfric, and if a good chunk of the forces have this mistrust and hatred of what they consider outsiders, it'll impact why people do anything and even Bethesda shows us that with why the Dunmer farmer is off to join the Legion.

And that is where the philosophical/ideological reasons come in for each faction, I personally see nothing wrong with wanting to put your people before outsiders. The Empire put Cyrodill before Hammerfell in the war, Ulfric feels he is putting Skyrim before the interests of Cyrodill.

The differences are that Ulfric is putting one race ahead of others who dwell in his country. The Empire didn't exactly put Cyrodiil ahead of Hammerfell, they fought there until the very last year and when they were close to defeat they pulled everyone for a final last ditch battle.

Ulfric is putting his own interests before the interests of others. From dialogue he is entire Nord focused, and that is creating the division.

Because it's not racism.. That word is used in a context that simply does not fit the world of Nirn.

Of course it fits. What would you call putting one race ahead of the rest, despite them all living in the same province?

It's not a stretch if people claim they hold racist ideals. This is the bit that gets me. Stormcloaks are apparently dumb racists, but not dumb or racist enough to let it effect them?

It does affect them, otherwise they wouldn't talk about it or refuse to shop in certain places due to race. You were pointing out racism in Cyrodiil in the city of Bruma, by your own definition it isn't racism then. The Nords there were able to own shops, they weren't killed in the streets etc.

Which, again, shows it's not faction wide Stormcloak racism but hatred born of other circumstances specific to that hold.

I'm not saying it is faction wide, but a large majority of Ulfric's troops come from these Holds. You see different views at differing locations, but by and large the Stormcloaks will always be considered for lack of a better word racist, simply due to their Nord focused movement.

Stormcloaks put Nords ahead of everyone else, a very huge focus on Nords or rather their idea of true Nords etc. You hear about it through the dialogue of many NPCs from Stormcloak aligned and those who don't like them.

It isn't a bad thing if you're a Nord,who shares their views, but other races don't exactly reap the benefits or really feel the urge to rally to to the banner of Ulfric.

If Stormcloaks are racists, then yes it does...

No it doesn't. Ulfric's problems aren't Laila's problems. Riften itself isn't a die hard Stormcloak Hold, besides two nobles, a Housecarl and Laila (whom doesn't have much faith in Ulfric himself, or believes the Stormcloaks will bring about some golden age).

The rest of Riften are either Imperial favored or neutral.

They are independent, and with diverse citizens. I'm not expecting anything, just pointing out how ridiculous it is to claim a whole faction is based around racism when which either way you cut it, it simply isn't the case.

Largely they're a Nord focused movement, and I've stated many times people have different reasons for fighting. However, the Stormcloaks are largely recruited from the Old Holds... They are quite against outsiders, and you get that Skyrim for the Nords theme.

How people view the Stormcloaks is very obvious, from our own player character's line of answers when asked certain questions to various NPCs.

You've said yourself Ulfric doesn't share the views of his men, making the racist argument irrelevant whether Ulfric is King or not, whether Holds do exactly as he says or not.

Ulfric cares about Nords only, so does his second in command. Ulfric's views don't matter, very few people would have dealings with him on a personal level. His supporters believe Ulfric shares their view when it comes to other races, Ulfric doesn't comment either way. He's forced to be Nord focused at this point, too much of his support comes from it.

Doesn't matter which way you try to spin it lol, the Jarls are loyal to a man who refuses to acknowledge Imperial authority.. Making said authority moot in these holds.

Not to those against the rebellion...? However Ulfric and the Jarls who support him feel about their political situation, to the Empire they're traitors and rebels. This is a rather silly thing to argue.

They joined him because of who he was and what he was.

I found many of these mountain villages almost empty of young men, who have been seduced into joining Septim's army by promises of wealth and glory; the village elders see little hope of their sons ever returning. - PGE, Skyrim

While the Cyrodilic army in the lowlands fought a desperate defense against the Nord-Breton sortie, General Talos and his men entered the citadel, swept aside the sparse defense, captured the Nord-Breton nobles and generals, and compelled them to surrender the citadel and their armies. The confused and demoralized Nord captives, already suspicious of the scheming High Rock sorcerer aristocracy and their overreaching dreams of Heartlands conquests, deserted the alliance and swore loyalty to Tiber Septim. The Skyrim generals joined their rank and file in Tiber Septim's army; the High Rock battlemage command was summarily executed and the captive Bretons imprisoned or sold into slavery. - Battle of Sancre Tor

Most are and most do want a honourable death/life to go to Sovngarde. There's no glory in surrender, hence why the Civil War has half of Skyrim's support.

The Civil War isn't about surrender. Given the amount of Stormcloak prisoners and that Ulfric even surrendered to Tullius, hence the opening scene it stands reason to believe Nords do in fact at times surrender. Most people don't want to die. Majority of the Nords in Skyrim just want to go about their business, earn their living and raise their families. Not everyone is a diehard warrior.

Aye, and claims that without the Empire the Nords would basically tear themselves apart.

That without the Legion, the provinces would fall into lawlessness and barbarism. That means Cyrodiil too.

Although the Nords are people of conflict and can't remain united for long, unless they split into two kingdoms.

Tullius having a "new found respect" for Nords after butchering them, I mean, it's not like he would've saw Nords fighting to the last to save the Imperial City and saw something in them there..

Tullius has limited dealing with Nords directly, their ways and their culture. What Tullius would have seen during the Great War was Legions fighting, Imperial blood fighting. Tullius has great respect for his soldiers, and treats them well, race doesn't factor into it. The Legion is the Legion, not a race or province.

"I'm here to show Bruma's errant Nords the path to the true faith. They must put aside their heathen gods and worship the Nine."

That is the chapel, and they've had plenty of issues with Empire itself before.

"I'm new here in Bruma myself. I'm from down Heartland way. Nords up here... no offense...don't work as hard as us Imperial Heartlanders."

"Just like Skyrim, except for all the tight-ass Heartlanders around. All work and chapel... no wonder they're so sour." - Olfand

"I'm Captain Burd, commander of the Bruma Guard. I make sure my guards treat the local Nords and their ways with respect."
"As Captain Burd says, we have to stay on the good side of the local Nords. It ain't their fault they're ignorant barbarians."

"I work hard. Folks like Skjorta and Olfand give us Nords a bad name, drinking and carrying on until all hours." - Fkotreid

"Some see only the conflicts between northern and southern cultures, but I see the way they are stronger when woven together." - Countess Narina Carvain

Yeah, you get your racists and those who are ignorant. On the whole the Imperials are not, given their reputation for merchants, diplomats and the very cosmopolitan nature of Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil would have the largest influx of mixed races and cultures. They even recognised the Orcs as people.

The Nords are regarded highly in the Empire. The Nords are spoken about in the highest respect in anything the Empire published, i.e the PGE.

The Gray Quarter is theirs.. Besides, the Quarter its self (That is also home to Nords, lol..) is in relatively good condition, it's inside where things may look worse off and if I;m not mistaken, you look after and maintain your own house lmao, you don't get somebody else to do it for you... Who is to blame for holes in the floor of the Free-Winter household?

Actually they're bothered by the outside. It is a slum, and there isn't any way of trying to throw it back onto them saying "Well the inside of their houses", they don't mention the floors. This is the stonework starting to fail, which in a city such as Windhelm would require looking after.

In fact in order to make them happier, Ulfric could just stop calling it the Gray quarter. It was once the Snow Quarter, so how about just removing the silly slander against them.

Ignoring a third of your city is stupid and wrong, even if Ulfric is fighting a war he is still the Jarl of Windhelm. He has a steward, he has Galmar. He can find the time to go to the temple, I'm sure he could have found time to speak with his citizens who have grievances.

The act of them trying in any way to recreate a little piece of Morrowind within Windhelm just shows their disrespect for Nord culture in a very historic city like Windhelm, which holds the throne of Ysgramor himself.

Because they made a Cornerclub? You put a large ethnic group into one section, they're always going to recreate the only thing they know. Is it disrespectful? I don't agree with that.

It's ironic, a people who have spent their whole lives living under some deluded bubble that they are superior to everybody else, that slavery is a divine right to their race are now having to come to terms with the fact that they aren't special anymore.

The Dunmer haven't practiced slavery for over two hundred years, prior to the events of Oblivion. So I don't know why people use it against them now.

It's no wonder most are so bitter, especially when now they seek refuge from those who they view near the very bottom of the ladder.

They sought refuge two hundred years ago, I'd hardly call them refugees now. Quite frankly they should have been considered citizens of Windhelm and not some second class.

At the end of the day both factions have their merits and their flaws. Hopefully the next Elder Scrolls will settle the debate, or better yet create an entirely new one.

 

[Lewsean]

Not joining the Stormcloaks because of how they interact with other races is still a valid reason on joining. People are entitled to feel how they like, but it doesn't mean it is always right or people will agree. The Stormcloaks do still represent Ulfric, and if a good chunk of the forces have this mistrust and hatred of what they consider outsiders, it'll impact why people do anything and even Bethesda shows us that with why the Dunmer farmer is off to join the Legion.

Being the be all and end all decision is too silly in a game where such prejudice is not really rare and is based on much more than what we apply the word racism to in the real world. It's hard to feel sorry for a race that see's slavery as a racial right.

The differences are that Ulfric is putting one race ahead of others who dwell in his country. The Empire didn't exactly put Cyrodiil ahead of Hammerfell, they fought there until the very last year and when they were close to defeat they pulled everyone for a final last ditch battle.

The way you look at it depends entirely on your allegiance. I can hardly imagine the people of Hammerfell seeing it the same way you do, hence why some decided to ignore the order and stay and help.

Ulfric is putting his own interests before the interests of others. From dialogue he is entire Nord focused, and that is creating the division.

He's doing so because he feels Nords are being plops on by the current Empire. They made untold number of sacrifices to defend the Empire, only for the treaty to ban an integral part of many Nords daily life and culture. His rebellion isn't for the Dunmer, Argonian's or anyone else, it's for his people.

Of course it fits. What would you call putting one race ahead of the rest, despite them all living in the same province?

As has been shown time and time again, that is simply not the case.

It does affect them, otherwise they wouldn't talk about it or refuse to shop in certain places due to race. You were pointing out racism in Cyrodiil in the city of Bruma, by your own definition it isn't racism then. The Nords there were able to own shops, they weren't killed in the streets etc.

Not wanting Imperial made armour/weapons isn't racist, not when they will buy Potions from a High Elf. Nords are arrogant in metal work, of course they are going to go to the Grey-Mane's and use the Skyforge.
And no, I don't believe it's racism, just pointing out an example of Stormcloak attitude being prominent in Cyrodill too in the sense of distrust/dislike of outsiders.

It isn't a bad thing if you're a Nord,who shares their views, but other races don't exactly reap the benefits or really feel the urge to rally to to the banner of Ulfric.

No and that is perfectly fine, if you don't hold his ideals don't join them but you also can't expect him to help people who refuse to help his cause in return. He's kept the Dark Elves in shelter and kept them fed at a time when you'd expect those with racist ideals towards the Dark Elves to simply kick them out.

No it doesn't. Ulfric's problems aren't Laila's problems.

No, but neither are his ideals.

Largely they're a Nord focused movement, and I've stated many times people have different reasons for fighting. However, the Stormcloaks are largely recruited from the Old Holds... They are quite against outsiders, and you get that Skyrim for the Nords theme.

Indeed though the reasoning for the rebellion sort of keep it a Nord focused movement as Nords show the most zealotry when it comes to publicly and proudly worshipping their God's and heroes, though it may be silly, Stormcloaks see worshipping Talos in secret as perhaps more disrespectful that not worshipping him at all.
Going back to the "For the Nords" thing, I don't really think that means screw everybody else but rather screw the Elves and screw the Empire for treating Skyrim like a play thing.

Ulfric cares about Nords only, so does his second in command. Ulfric's views don't matter, very few people would have dealings with him on a personal level. His supporters believe Ulfric shares their view when it comes to other races, Ulfric doesn't comment either way. He's forced to be Nord focused at this point, too much of his support comes from it.

I agree his concern is for Nords only, but I don't think he has some inborn hatred for the Dunmer resulting in the Gray-Quarter. He's just simply indifferent to their problems right now as they are rather insignificant at the time.

Not to those against the rebellion...? However Ulfric and the Jarls who support him feel about their political situation, to the Empire they're traitors and rebels. This is a rather silly thing to argue.

That's what the fighting solves The WGC is not in effect in the Old Holds simply because they do not recognise the empire anymore.

I found many of these mountain villages almost empty of young men, who have been seduced into joining Septim's army by promises of wealth and glory; the village elders see little hope of their sons ever returning. - PGE, Skyrim

While the Cyrodilic army in the lowlands fought a desperate defense against the Nord-Breton sortie, General Talos and his men entered the citadel, swept aside the sparse defense, captured the Nord-Breton nobles and generals, and

compelled them to surrender the citadel and their armies. The confused and demoralized Nord captives, already suspicious of the scheming High Rock sorcerer aristocracy and their overreaching dreams of Heartlands conquests, deserted the alliance and swore loyalty to Tiber Septim. The Skyrim generals joined their rank and file in Tiber Septim's army; the High Rock battlemage command was summarily executed and the captive Bretons imprisoned or sold into slavery. - Battle of Sancre Tor

Well this again goes back to pov, I don't think Talos would've been able to empty those mountain villages without being who/what he was. Nordic warbands weren't exactly rare in promising wealth and glory, but this time the Nords saw a great man born of Atmora and having the soul of a dragon.

Most are and most do want a honourable death/life to go to Sovngarde. There's no glory in surrender, hence why the Civil War has half of Skyrim's support.

The Civil War isn't about surrender. Given the amount of Stormcloak prisoners and that Ulfric even surrendered to Tullius, hence the opening scene it stands reason to believe Nords do in fact at times surrender. Most people don't want to die. Majority of the Nords in Skyrim just want to go about their business, earn their living and raise their families. Not everyone is a diehard warrior.

Not surrender as in fight to the death, I mean they've surrendered to the Thalmor by outlawing Talos and becoming a puppet. Sure, it may have been the right move at the time, but it's been 25-30 years of, in their eyes, heresy. It's not a stalled peace treaty anymore, it's viewed as a surrender that is being used by corrupt politicians to swell their pockets. Many of the Nords who lived to see this Talos ban may die before they see men fight to restore it....

Tullius has limited dealing with Nords directly, their ways and their culture. What Tullius would have seen during the Great War was Legions fighting, Imperial blood fighting. Tullius has great respect for his soldiers, and treats them well, race doesn't factor into it. The Legion is the Legion, not a race or province.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most Legions are comprised of racial squadrons on the battlefront due to tactics and style. I can't remember the name, but the Legion I was specifically talking about was a Nord-only legion. Been so long I can't remember the book name lol.

Yeah, you get your racists and those who are ignorant. On the whole the Imperials are not, given their reputation for merchants, diplomats and the very cosmopolitan nature of Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil would have the largest influx of mixed races and cultures. They even recognised the Orcs as people.

The Nords are regarded highly in the Empire. The Nords are spoken about in the highest respect in anything the Empire published, i.e the PGE.

I don't doubt it, Talos was a smart man when it came to cementing the Nords(Everyone's for that matter) loyalty.

Actually they're bothered by the outside. It is a slum, and there isn't any way of trying to throw it back onto them saying "Well the inside of their houses", they don't mention the floors. This is the stonework starting to fail, which in a city such as Windhelm would require looking after.

But that isn't a problem limited to the Gray-Quater, the very steps leading up to the Palace are broken.

In fact in order to make them happier, Ulfric could just stop calling it the Gray quarter. It was once the Snow Quarter, so how about just removing the silly slander against them.

I thought that was just a name that was coined due to them living their?

Ignoring a third of your city is stupid and wrong, even if Ulfric is fighting a war he is still the Jarl of Windhelm. He has a steward, he has Galmar. He can find the time to go to the temple, I'm sure he could have found time to speak with his citizens who have grievances.

Perhaps you're right in that he could maybe find the time to speak to them, but I'd see fighting a rebellion as more taxing than being rebelled against. He hesitates sending much needed resources on a mission that could theoretically gain him much more support over the people (Jagged Crown), so surely he's not going to put resources into renovating a slum.

Because they made a Cornerclub? You put a large ethnic group into one section, they're always going to recreate the only thing they know. Is it disrespectful? I don't agree with that.

Maybe, maybe not, but it further alienates them to a people who dislike outsiders in the first place.. It's not exactly a smart decision to be culturally converting one of their historic cities.

The Dunmer haven't practiced slavery for over two hundred years, prior to the events of Oblivion. So I don't know why people use it against them now.

Because many Dunmer are still alive from that time and perhaps used slaves themselves, most live over 300 years iirc.

They sought refuge two hundred years ago, I'd hardly call them refugees now. Quite frankly they should have been considered citizens of Windhelm and not some second class.

I agree with that, but surely after 200 years that's not exactly an issue that lies solely on Ulfric's shoulders. Either past Jarls were just as cruel or the Dunmer have segregated themselves.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Being the be all and end all decision is too silly in a game where such prejudice is not really rare and is based on much more than what we apply the word racism to in the real world. It's hard to feel sorry for a race that see's slavery as a racial right.

When you're subjected to such prejudice, and treated as inferior it will affect your views.

They no longer see slavery as a racial right, and only certain factions felt that way. The Dunmer who were Imperial aligned were against slavery, even waged a civil war to end slavery and returned all the slaves to their native provinces. You're judging a race on their past, and condemning them for something they changed a long time ago. Be like me saying all Nords are bad because they once practiced slavery.

The way you look at it depends entirely on your allegiance. I can hardly imagine the people of Hammerfell seeing it the same way you do, hence why some decided to ignore the order and stay and help.

The people of Hammerfell don't view the Empire leaving bad, they view that Titus II lost his nerve and believe they can defeat the Dominion with the Empire.

General Decianus was unwilling to leave the province completely, at the time he was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back so he discharged a large number of his own forces to continue the fighting. General Decianus was starting to win in Hammerfell when he got the order.

He's doing so because he feels Nords are being pl*** on by the current Empire. They made untold number of sacrifices to defend the Empire, only for the treaty to ban an integral part of many Nords daily life and culture. His rebellion isn't for the Dunmer, Argonian's or anyone else, it's for his people.

Yes, he's focusing on Nords. His people are more than the Nords, but anyone living under his rule. Hence why those view him as having disdain or no care for anyone who isn't a Nord.

As has been shown time and time again, that is simply not the case.

According to many NPCs, it is the case.

Not wanting Imperial made armour/weapons isn't racist, not when they will buy Potions from a High Elf.

"These Stormcloaks are ridiculous. They won't shop here because they think I'll sell them poisoned tonics. I should just go back to Cyrodiil."

Nords are arrogant in metal work, of course they are going to go to the Grey-Mane's and use the Skyforge.

"Well, not a great deal, no. But I do less business than I used to. The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. If I wasn't married to Ulfberth, I'd be out of business."

They still go to the store, but only due to Ulfberth.

No and that is perfectly fine, if you don't hold his ideals don't join them but you also can't expect him to help people who refuse to help his cause in return. He's kept the Dark Elves in shelter and kept them fed at a time when you'd expect those with racist ideals towards the Dark Elves to simply kick them out.

The Dark elves feed themselves, they shelter themselves. Just like any citizen in Windhelm, they're not living high off Ulfric's resources and you're suggesting that because they're not waving his banner on the front lines he shouldn't help them? The Dunmer provide for his city, that would go into his war effort.

Why is it that the Dunmer have to go above and beyond to be treated fairly, but others don't?

Indeed though the reasoning for the rebellion sort of keep it a Nord focused movement as Nords show the most zealotry when it comes to publicly and proudly worshipping their God's and heroes, though it may be silly, Stormcloaks see worshipping Talos in secret as perhaps more disrespectful that not worshipping him at all.

Many people keep their worship to themselves, you don't need to shout and scream about a God to worship. I doubt they'd see it as disrespectful, they're not a church going people.

Going back to the "For the Nords" thing, I don't really think that means screw everybody else but rather screw the Elves and screw the Empire for treating Skyrim like a play thing.

To many NPCs who support and who are against the Stormcloaks, it means For the Nords only.

Even the player views it as such:

"You one of those 'Skyrim for the Nords' types?"
If you're a Nord, you can answer:
"Yes. Anyone who's not a Nord is a trespasser."
"No. Skyrim's big enough for everyone."
If you're not a Nord you can answer:
"Yes. Outsiders like me have no place here."
"I think all folk should be welcome here."

I'm inclined to believe our own character's view of it.

I agree his concern is for Nords only, but I don't think he has some inborn hatred for the Dunmer resulting in the Gray-Quarter. He's just simply indifferent to their problems right now as they are rather insignificant at the time.

I don't believe he hates them, but he's viewed as not being as tolerant towards them as his father, and his father before him.

That's what the fighting solves The WGC is not in effect in the Old Holds simply because they do not recognise the empire anymore.

Obviously, but to the Empire they're not a foreign independent kingdom.

Well this again goes back to pov, I don't think Talos would've been able to empty those mountain villages without being who/what he was. Nordic warbands weren't exactly rare in promising wealth and glory, but this time the Nords saw a great man born of Atmora and having the soul of a dragon.

Of course he could, can you imagine the glory of conquering the known world? To those Nords it would have been something of legend, not done since the Skyrim conquests in the First Era.
Wealth, lands, titles, glory. Nords like that kind of thing, sure there may be some mighty man to follow but it is your own wealth and glory you seek. It was the same for Alessia, and Reman.

The only person I know the Nords accepted freely was the Mede dynasty, they were the ones who endorsed Titus Mede as their Emperor.

Not surrender as in fight to the death, I mean they've surrendered to the Thalmor by outlawing Talos and becoming a puppet. Sure, it may have been the right move at the time, but it's been 25-30 years of, in their eyes, heresy. It's not a stalled peace treaty anymore, it's viewed as a surrender that is being used by corrupt politicians to swell their pockets. Many of the Nords who lived to see this Talos ban may die before they see men fight to restore it....

Everyone is a puppet, including the Stormcloaks. The White-Gold Concordat is a treaty that to the Empire allows them to rebuild and fight another day, to the Stormcloaks it is surrender. It just depends on what your view is, like choosing a side.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most Legions are comprised of racial squadrons on the battlefront due to tactics and style.

No... Based on what you're doing. A Healer and a Ranger won't be doing line infantry etc. The Imperial Legion doesn't discriminate on race, and generally in the "real" Tamriel your race doesn't make you better at a certain style.

I can't remember the name, but the Legion I was specifically talking about was a Nord-only legion. Been so long I can't remember the book name lol.

The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal. The main army was commanded by the Emperor himself, and would undertake the main assault of the Imperial City from the north. On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City.

Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.

Titus II led the assault from the north, personally capturing Lord Naarifin. It is rumored the Emperor wielded the famed sword Goldbrand, although this has never been officially confirmed by the Imperial government. An attempt by the Aldmeri to break out of the city to the south was blocked by the unbreakable shieldwall of General Jonna's battered legions.

The Legions from Skyrim, would largely be made up of Nords due to there being more Nords than other races. It isn't some racial split up for tactics, but recruitment and conscription. If you were to conscript/recruit every able man or woman in a Hold or village, you'd likely get more Nords than other races.

Legions are split by number and history, tactics are largely the same across the board.

I don't doubt it, Talos was a smart man when it came to cementing the Nords(Everyone's for that matter) loyalty.

It wasn't just Tiber (He personally hated Orcs and wanted to wipe them out), and the Nords were still regarded highly in previous and later publications. Talos is okay, but he's not the greatest, the Imperials installed so much propaganda about him that the man himself is lost.

But that isn't a problem limited to the Gray-Quater, the very steps leading up to the Palace are broken.

They're not likely to collapse, killing everyone within or causing other structures to go down with it. I'd think buildings and walls would take priority over some steps.

I thought that was just a name that was coined due to them living their?

You don't see why they might take issue with that?

Windhelm's Snow Quarter has been renamed the "Gray Quarter," in reference to the dark elves who have made that district their home.

"You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."

Perhaps you're right in that he could maybe find the time to speak to them, but I'd see fighting a rebellion as more taxing than being rebelled against. He hesitates sending much needed resources on a mission that could theoretically gain him much more support over the people (Jagged Crown), so surely he's not going to put resources into renovating a slum.

Chasing a legend that he isn't even sure exists, is very different than maintaining his city. For starters one uses soldiers, the other uses materials. Every Hold is spending resources into the war, every single one is being drained. The Jarls still have to try manage their cities.

I'd see shoring up the city as a good thing rather than thinking it a waste of time. His citizens would need protection in the event of a siege, and the last thing you'd want is potential weakness. Chunks of his wall are missing in that slum if I remember correctly.

Maybe, maybe not, but it further alienates them to a people who dislike outsiders in the first place.. It's not exactly a smart decision to be culturally converting one of their historic cities.

I doubt there is much they can do to not be alienated while Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are in power. If the worst they've done is call one business a corner club (one that Nords don't even interact with) I'd hardly it culturally converting. They're not establishing temples to Daedra, or conducting any other traditional dunmer rituals/practices.

Because many Dunmer are still alive from that time and perhaps used slaves themselves, most live over 300 years iirc.

Besides Neloth, 300 is very old for an elf according to lore. You're assuming the Dunmer in Windhelm used slaves, and yet one of the Dunmer in that city is from the very house that ended the slave trade. Also how they react from the Empire being in control, it stands reason to believe they're not for slavery.

Stormcloaks in Markarth plan to enslave the Forsworn, so I don't think you can judge the Dunmer of Windhelm harshly without any sort of evidence to even remotely suggest they were slavers.

I agree with that, but surely after 200 years that's not exactly an issue that lies solely on Ulfric's shoulders. Either past Jarls were just as cruel or the Dunmer have segregated themselves.

Past Jarls were considered more tolerant, even by the Nords. The dialogue from certain Dunmer are that things got worse when Ulfric and his Stormcloaks rose to power.

I wouldn't say they have segregated themselves, I'd say the locals of Windhelm made it that way rather than an actual ruler. Tensions would be worse under Ulfric's rule, because the Nords who hate them now believe Ulfric shares their view.

 

[Lewsean]

They no longer see slavery as a racial right, and only certain factions felt that way. The Dunmer who were Imperial aligned were against slavery, even waged a civil war to end slavery and returned all the slaves to their native provinces. You're judging a race on their past, and condemning them for something they changed a long time ago. Be like me saying all Nords are bad because they once practiced slavery.

No it's not, considering not one single Nord is alive today that used slaves, most Dunmer are.

The people of Hammerfell don't view the Empire leaving bad, they view that Titus II lost his nerve and believe they can defeat the Dominion with the Empire.

Yes they do, hence the reason they seceded to fight the Thalmor instead of giving up their land.

Yes, he's focusing on Nords. His people are more than the Nords, but anyone living under his rule. Hence why those view him as having disdain or no care for anyone who isn't a Nord.

The reason for war doesn't effect non Nords, as for reasons I stated previously. He's in the middle of a rebellion, his priority is the war and Nords. Absolutely zero problem in that if you look at it logically rather than ideologically.

According to many NPCs, it is the case.

And according to others, it's not the case. See where this is going? You're willing to use the words of NPC's to justify the racist label but not willing to use them to discredit it, rather labelling them as "a single family, a single housecarl" etc etc There really is no point in carrying that specific argument on if you continue to over exaggerate the beneficial quotes.

"These Stormcloaks are ridiculous. They won't shop here because they think I'll sell them poisoned tonics. I should just go back to Cyrodiil."

As I stated this has nothing to do with race when they'll buy potions from a High Elf in Windhelm. She's an imperial loyalist alchemist.. You'd have to be downright stupid to buy anything from her after taking her city.

"Well, not a great deal, no. But I do less business than I used to. The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. If I wasn't married to Ulfberth, I'd be out of business."

They still go to the store, but only due to Ulfberth.

Ah, so they'll buy things from the filthy mix breeder. Dang, these racist give themselves a bad name. Real racists would burn down his shop for marrying a lesser being.

The Dark elves feed themselves, they shelter themselves. Just like any citizen in Windhelm, they're not living high off Ulfric's resources and you're suggesting that because they're not waving his banner on the front lines he shouldn't help them? The Dunmer provide for his city, that would go into his war effort.

No they don't. How can you say they feed and shelter themselves after arguing that Ulfric should do something about their living quarters? The houses belong to the Jarl of that hold. Like I stated previously, their situation is no different than most living in Windhelm.

Why is it that the Dunmer have to go above and beyond to be treated fairly, but others don't?

They are treated fairly, they're given the exact same opportunities as everyone else. You're confusing fairness with handouts.

Many people keep their worship to themselves, you don't need to shout and scream about a God to worship. I doubt they'd see it as disrespectful, they're not a church going people.

You have no right to dictate how anyone should worship.

To many NPCs who support and who are against the Stormcloaks, it means For the Nords only.

Even the player views it as such:

"You one of those 'Skyrim for the Nords' types?"
If you're a Nord, you can answer:
"Yes. Anyone who's not a Nord is a trespasser."
"No. Skyrim's big enough for everyone."
If you're not a Nord you can answer:
"Yes. Outsiders like me have no place here."
"I think all folk should be welcome here."

I'm inclined to believe our own character's view of it.

It's also shouted by NPC's who aren't Stormcloak aligned. And surely being given this option and the chance to say no even if you are Stormcloak aligned shows it's not a Stormcloak view.

I don't believe he hates them, but he's viewed as not being as tolerant towards them as his father, and his father before him.

Such is life.

Obviously, but to the Empire they're not a foreign independent kingdom.

If the Empire was still the Empire this rebellion wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes.

Of course he could, can you imagine the glory of conquering the known world? To those Nords it would have been something of legend, not done since the Skyrim conquests in the First Era.
Wealth, lands, titles, glory. Nords like that kind of thing, sure there may be some mighty man to follow but it is your own wealth and glory you seek. It was the same for Alessia, and Reman.

Aye, but as you say they aren't stupid, they aren't just going to follow a man who has shown nothing based on promises. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions deserved respect.

The only person I know the Nords accepted freely was the Mede dynasty, they were the ones who endorsed Titus Mede as their Emperor.

Well they were right, in the big picture the Mede dynasty has done a good job.

Everyone is a puppet, including the Stormcloaks. The White-Gold Concordat is a treaty that to the Empire allows them to rebuild and fight another day, to the Stormcloaks it is surrender. It just depends on what your view is, like choosing a side.

How long does a human Empire need to rebuild exactly? 30 years should be prime time to re-build the Legions, you've still got veterans from the previous great war who know what to expect.. It makes no sense whatsoever unless the Empire hasn't been rebuilding properly. The Roman's populated their legions 4-5 years (iirc) after being destroyed by Hannibal.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most Legions are comprised of racial squadrons on the battlefront due to tactics and style.

No... Based on what you're doing. A Healer and a Ranger won't be doing line infantry etc. The Imperial Legion doesn't discriminate on race, and generally in the "real" Tamriel your race doesn't make you better at a certain style.

But it's 100% true that some legions are race based. It's not hard to fathom lol, Roman's used German cavalry, Gaulic slingers/javelin men etc..
A shock troop would be better off comprised of Orc's or Nord's. A battle line of Imperial's etc etc.

The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal. The main army was commanded by the Emperor himself, and would undertake the main assault of the Imperial City from the north. On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City.

Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.

Titus II led the assault from the north, personally capturing Lord Naarifin. It is rumored the Emperor wielded the famed sword Goldbrand, although this has never been officially confirmed by the Imperial government. An attempt by the Aldmeri to break out of the city to the south was blocked by the unbreakable shieldwall of General Jonna's battered legions.

That's the one

The Legions from Skyrim, would largely be made up of Nords due to there being more Nords than other races. It isn't some racial split up for tactics, but recruitment and conscription. If you were to conscript/recruit every able man or woman in a Hold or village, you'd likely get more Nords than other races.

Location doesn't relate to your legion unless it's provice specific. Hammerfell legions would be Redguard's, Skyrim would be Nord's. So yes, they are racial in a way.

I don't doubt it, Talos was a smart man when it came to cementing the Nords(Everyone's for that matter) loyalty.

It wasn't just Tiber (He personally hated Orcs and wanted to wipe them out), and the Nords were still regarded highly in previous and later publications. Talos is okay, but he's not the greatest, the Imperials installed so much propaganda about him that the man himself is lost.

They're not likely to collapse, killing everyone within or causing other structures to go down with it. I'd think buildings and walls would take priority over some steps.

Priority yes, but racial discrimination would surely put the steps to the Jarl's palace above the Gray-Quarter.

You don't see why they might take issue with that?

Windhelm's Snow Quarter has been renamed the "Gray Quarter," in reference to the dark elves who have made that district their home.

"You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."

Well, they are known across Tamriel as Gray Skins, I just assumed the name was coined by residents then it eventually stuck, not that it was renamed specifically by a Jarl.

Chasing a legend that he isn't even sure exists, is very different than maintaining his city. For starters one uses soldiers, the other uses materials. Every Hold is spending resources into the war, every single one is being drained. The Jarls still have to try manage their cities.

Aye and each hold has specific problems. Imperial Markarth for example has a cannibal cult running around that the Jarl doesn't fix but rather the player does.

I'd see shoring up the city as a good thing rather than thinking it a waste of time. His citizens would need protection in the event of a siege, and the last thing you'd want is potential weakness. Chunks of his wall are missing in that slum if I remember correctly.

Perhaps that will be done after the war? Logically speaking you'd leave maintenance until after you've successfully rebelled.

I doubt there is much they can do to not be alienated while Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are in power. If the worst they've done is call one business a corner club (one that Nords don't even interact with) I'd hardly it culturally converting. They're not establishing temples to Daedra, or conducting any other traditional dunmer rituals/practices.

The corner club was built before the Stormcloak's were a thing and to my knowledge there's not a single other like it in Skyrim.. We have ex-morrowind Dunmer in Windhelm whilst other holds simply have "imperial" Dunmer. It's no surprise they act so differently and segregate themselves. Also I find it funny after all the complaining the only Dunmer to leave Eastmarch is leaving in order to join the Legion to kill Stormcloaks, the people who's city they occupy.

Besides Neloth, 300 is very old for an elf according to lore.

The source that says 300 is very old is also the same source that calls Orc's the same as Khajit lol.

Past Jarls were considered more tolerant, even by the Nords. The dialogue from certain Dunmer are that things got worse when Ulfric and his Stormcloaks rose to power.

I wouldn't say they have segregated themselves, I'd say the locals of Windhelm made it that way rather than an actual ruler. Tensions would be worse under Ulfric's rule, because the Nords who hate them now believe Ulfric shares their view.

They've done what no other Dunmer has done in Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

No it's not, considering not one single Nord is alive today that used slaves, most Dunmer are.

Most? How do you know that most of them are.

Yes they do, hence the reason they seceded to fight the Thalmor instead of giving up their land.

They don't view the Legion pulling east bad. How they view the White-Gold Concordat is very different to what Titus II did during the war in order to recapture the Imperial City.

The reason for war doesn't effect non Nords, as for reasons I stated previously. He's in the middle of a rebellion, his priority is the war and Nords. Absolutely zero problem in that if you look at it logically rather than ideologically.

It is a war entirely on ideology. There is a problem in that, otherwise many non-Nords wouldn't have an issue.

And according to others, it's not the case. See where this is going? You're willing to use the words of NPC's to justify the racist label but not willing to use them to discredit it, rather labelling them as "a single family, a single housecarl" etc etc There really is no point in carrying that specific argument on if you continue to over exaggerate the beneficial quotes.

A Housecarl having sexual relations with an elf, somehow discredits that a good portion of Ulfric's forces, the actual Stormcloaks (his private army loyal to him and not another Jarl) are outwardly against non-Nords. They make it pretty clear how they feel.

As I stated this has nothing to do with race when they'll buy potions from a High Elf in Windhelm.

Provide me with the example that the Stormcloaks actually shop there.

She's an imperial loyalist alchemist..

No she isn't, she has no loyalty for the Empire.

You'd have to be downright stupid to buy anything from her after taking her city.

Why would you? Because she feels the Stormcloaks are against her due to her race before they take the city, and then cement her views after they do?

Ah, so they'll buy things from the filthy mix breeder. Dang, these racist give themselves a bad name. Real racists would burn down his shop for marrying a lesser being.

Okay, so in order to be a racist in Tamriel. You must burn people's shops down, murder them etc.

How does that even make sense? Mistrusting and disliking outsiders, or non-Nords doesn't mean you go around burning plops like a dumb ass. You're expecting some extreme crap that is on the Thalmor level.

No they don't. How can you say they feed and shelter themselves after arguing that Ulfric should do something about their living quarters? The houses belong to the Jarl of that hold. Like I stated previously, their situation is no different than most living in Windhelm.

Yes they do. Ulfric may own the city, but they're not free loaders. They all work and pay their way, and asking that Ulfric try to maintain the stonework of a district is quite normal. Their situation is different to most living in Windhelm, the other quarters aren't likely to collapse.

They are treated fairly, they're given the exact same opportunities as everyone else. You're confusing fairness with handouts.

No they're not.

You have no right to dictate how anyone should worship.

Obviously you do, they've been doing it for a long time. You You see everything is fine, so long as it isn't your own God that you can't rave about. There has been religious oppression in Skyrim for hundreds of years, only now that it is Talos there's a problem.

You're saying it is considered disrespectful to worship silently, I'm just saying that Nords traditonally aren't very church going. Loud drinkers, but most do their own thing.

It's also shouted by NPC's who aren't Stormcloak aligned.

Yes, it is a certain Nord combat dialogue followed by "Your kind doesn't belong here".

I'm not talking about what is generic dialogue being shouted, but the actual view shared by the Stormcloaks and those like them.

And surely being given this option and the chance to say no even if you are Stormcloak aligned shows it's not a Stormcloak view.

No it doesn't, it just shows you're against "Skyrim for the Nords"

I'm not saying it is a Stormcloak only view, and if you paid attention to what I've said for the last several posts. It is something that is commonly shared by Nords from the Old Holds.

Such is life.

Rather pointless addition here.

If the Empire was still the Empire this rebellion wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

The Empire is still the Empire, and it still does in fact greatly out number the Stormcloaks. If Alduin hadn't shown up, the rebellion was ended. Tullius was sent to deal with a minor issue, that quickly turned into a major conflict after Alduin returned.

Aye, but as you say they aren't stupid, they aren't just going to follow a man who has shown nothing based on promises. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions deserved respect.

He didn't show nothing, while he may deserve respect in his ability to be cunning. The Nords didn't leave their villages simply because of the man, which was your original statement.

How long does a human Empire need to rebuild exactly? 30 years should be prime time to re-build the Legions, you've still got veterans from the previous great war who know what to expect.. It makes no sense whatsoever unless the Empire hasn't been rebuilding properly. The Roman's populated their legions 4-5 years (iirc) after being destroyed by Hannibal.

You can populate your Legions, but when your entire province is in ruins from the war that according to people from Cyrodiil "destroyed everything". Your capital city was sacked, almost every other major city was occupied for a time... Following the war was absolute chaos, where riots broke out, criminal factions turned cities into war zones, throw in your various magical creatures that live and prey on the people in the region. I'd say thirty years is fairly normal in rebuilding an entire province while preparing for all out war.

I doubt the Romans had over half their entire military destroyed, and their land 95% occupied and devastated (iirc).

But it's 100% true that some legions are race based. It's not hard to fathom lol, Roman's used German cavalry, Gaulic slingers/javelin men etc..
A shock troop would be better off comprised of Orc's or Nord's. A battle line of Imperial's etc etc.

No they're not. Once maybe if you want to speculate without any sort of evidence, but certainly not after the reformations into the Ruby Legions. Roman Legion =/= Tamriel's Legions.

Why would it be better comprised of Orcs or Nords? You're going off racial stereotype and expecting it to be the norm tactics for Tamriel's Empire. There's an Orc Legion Scout in the novels.

Location doesn't relate to your legion unless it's provice specific. Hammerfell legions would be Redguard's, Skyrim would be Nord's. So yes, they are racial in a way.

No they're not. Look at Morrowind's Legions, they weren't all Dark elves. Hammerfell's Legions would be pretty small then, considering Redguards on a whole rarely served in the Imperial army.

Legions are garrisoned in the provinces, and given that many Nords serve in the Imperial Legions. You're going to find plenty of Nords.

Priority yes, but racial discrimination would surely put the steps to the Jarl's palace above the Gray-Quarter.

To your local Nord, yes. To Ulfric?

Well, they are known across Tamriel as Gray Skins, I just assumed the name was coined by residents then it eventually stuck, not that it was renamed specifically by a Jarl.

They're known across Tamriel as Dark Elves, Gray Skins is a Windhelm specific thing.

Aye and each hold has specific problems. Imperial Markarth for example has a cannibal cult running around that the Jarl doesn't fix but rather the player does.

Yes, the Jarl of Markarth is fully aware of a secret Daedric Cult of cannibals running around. Each Hold has their problems, Windhelm's one is the murders. Ulfric dealing with city repairs is one I'm sure doesn't require much snooping, especially since you have people telling you about it.

Perhaps that will be done after the war? Logically speaking you'd leave maintenance until after you've successfully rebelled.

Logically speaking you'd do it before you come under siege, that way there isn't any weakness. Either way even if you can't do it right then, you can at least acknowledge it.

Come on, the man listens to Galmar wanting a Dragon, Torsten wanting Ulfric to fund a large fleet because it would be glorious. He can't just say to a third of his city, he'll look into it? He could just send his steward to bullplops.

The corner club was built before the Stormcloak's were a thing and to my knowledge there's not a single other like it in Skyrim.. We have ex-morrowind Dunmer in Windhelm whilst other holds simply have "imperial" Dunmer.

Most likely it was built before the Stormcloaks were official, I'm not sure though as the "Stormcloaks" have been a thing for years. Both Riften and Windhelm had a large influx of refugees due to their eastern borders.

It's no surprise they act so differently and segregate themselves. Also I find it funny after all the complaining the only Dunmer to leave Eastmarch is leaving in order to join the Legion to kill Stormcloaks, the people who's city they occupy.

I think it is more the differing views of Windhelm's residents, and those of Riften. I'm not sure if that Dunmer is on his way from Eastmarch, but he does feel treated like dirt by some nords.

That farmer is off to join the Legion because he feels a united Empire is better for everyone. I doubt his only reason is "Must kill Stormcloaks".

The source that says 300 is very old is also the same source that calls Orc's the same as Khajit lol.

Orcs don't generally live long, and that same source is Bethesda's official canon stance. According to legend Shor caused their lifespan to be shorter.

They've done what no other Dunmer has done in Skyrim.

Which is what? Bring part of their culture into Skyrim? I'm surprised there aren't more unique businesses and other various shops. Been part of the Empire for centuries.

 

[Lewsean]

Most? How do you know that most of them are.

I mean that most Dark Elves are alive today that were alive when they practiced slavery, no humans are.

They don't view the Legion pulling east bad. How they view the White-Gold Concordat is very different to what Titus II did during the war in order to recapture the Imperial City.

Of course they do, or else the soldiers wouldn't have ignored the order.


It is a war entirely on ideology. There is a problem in that, otherwise many non-Nords wouldn't have an issue.

And according to others, it's not the case. See where this is going? You're willing to use the words of NPC's to justify the racist label but not willing to use them to discredit it, rather labelling them as "a single family, a single housecarl" etc etc There really is no point in carrying that specific argument on if you continue to over exaggerate the beneficial quotes.

A Housecarl having sexual relations with an elf, somehow discredits that a good portion of Ulfric's forces, the actual Stormcloaks (his private army loyal to him and not another Jarl) are outwardly against non-Nords. They make it pretty clear how they feel.

It's the way you view these situations. The Nord having a relationship with the Elf, to you, is nothing more than a coincidence and not to be taken into Stormcloak ideology. So with that logic, Rollff & Angrenor are just narrow minded individuals and their views should not be taken into Stormcloak ideology. You either take the whole and paint a picture, or you need to treat each case as individual. The way you build up a case based on NPC dialogue can't change based on the faction.

Provide me with the example that the Stormcloaks actually shop there.

That's petty considering no NPC buy's anything from anyone. But the fact that the shop is open and sells things is an indication that people buy from it..

No she isn't, she has no loyalty for the Empire.

She has no loyalty towards the Stormcloaks, therefor she isn't to be trusted. It's nothing to do with race as can be proven with the example above.

Why would you? Because she feels the Stormcloaks are against her due to her race before they take the city, and then cement her views after they do?

Except they don't, not because of her race. As can be proven with the example above.

Okay, so in order to be a racist in Tamriel. You must burn people's shops down, murder them etc.

How does that even make sense? Mistrusting and disliking outsiders, or non-Nords doesn't mean you go around burning pl*** like a dumb ass. You're expecting some extreme crap that is on the Thalmor level.

Mistrust and dislike. If they hated non-Nords, they wouldn't associate with a Nord who is married to a non-Nord.

Yes they do. Ulfric may own the city, but they're not free loaders. They all work and pay their way, and asking that Ulfric try to maintain the stonework of a district is quite normal. Their situation is different to most living in Windhelm, the other quarters aren't likely to collapse.

The only aesthetic damage to the Gray-Quarter is the hole above Sadri's shop and that isn't even part of the building foundation, it's part of the walkway for the upper patrol.

No they're not.

Yes they are, they are given jobs, homes, opportunities. As can be proven by some Dunmer(Elves in General) having a higher standing than Stormcloaks in Eastmarch. Faryl even talks about how his brother is ashamed of him for working FOR the Nords, to which he says "At least I can afford to eat", further showing they'd rather not work for Nords than eat..

Obviously you do, they've been doing it for a long time. You You see everything is fine, so long as it isn't your own God that you can't rave about. There has been religious oppression in Skyrim for hundreds of years, only now that it is Talos there's a problem.

No, I'm saying you can't say they don't need to worship him publicly.

Yes, it is a certain Nord combat dialogue followed by "Your kind doesn't belong here".

I'm not talking about what is generic dialogue being shouted, but the actual view shared by the Stormcloaks and those like them.

So it's general dialogue when a non-Stormcloak NPC uses it, but proof of racism if a Stormcloak uses it?..

No it doesn't, it just shows you're against "Skyrim for the Nords"

And at the same time, a Stormcloak.

I'm not saying it is a Stormcloak only view, and if you paid attention to what I've said for the last several posts. It is something that is commonly shared by Nords from the Old Holds.

I'm not debating that, I'm debating that racism is something that seems to bind the Stormcloaks, when it clearly isn't.

Rather pointless addition here.

Not really, political party's shift every couple of years changing who and what the country is prioritising. Ulfric is the current shift and he is prioritising Nords and Nordic religion.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

That's just being smart against a force that has a superior numerical and logistical advantage. My point still stands, if the Empire was anyway it's former self, the rebellion wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes.. Weather that would be because nobody would rally around the cause due to loyalty, there would be no reason to rebel in the first place and even if it did gain traction, the Empire wouldn't just send a general, a skeleton legion and rely on local recruitment to stop it. The fact that the Empire can't muster up enough men to stop a rebellion that hasn't even spread throughout the whole of Skyrim yet is embarrassing and shows the ability of the current Empire. If they can't pull troops off the border due to lack of men, then that surely shows, after 30 years that the Empire is STILL in no position to fight the Thalmor.

The Empire is still the Empire, and it still does in fact greatly out number the Stormcloaks. If Alduin hadn't shown up, the rebellion was ended. Tullius was sent to deal with a minor issue, that quickly turned into a major conflict after Alduin returned.

I think that just goes to show the ability of Tullius as a commander rather than the strength of the Empire. It's a shame such a mind is being wasted on killing imperial citizens rather than fighting the Elves.

He didn't show nothing, while he may deserve respect in his ability to be cunning. The Nords didn't leave their villages simply because of the man, which was your original statement. This wasn't empty promises, but actual wealth and glory.

He showed he was capable, a shrewd tactician and a powerful user of The Voice. So yes, they left because they were following a man worth following.

You can populate your Legions, but when your entire province is in ruins from the war that according to people from Cyrodiil "destroyed everything". Your capital city was sacked, almost every other major city was occupied for a time... Following the war was absolute chaos, where riots broke out, criminal factions turned cities into war zones, throw in your various magical creatures that live and prey on the people in the region. I'd say thirty years is fairly normal in rebuilding an entire province while preparing for all out war.

meh, it's a long, long time.. And though they are real world events, places/empires have rebuilt on a much quicker scale.

I doubt the Romans had over half their entire military destroyed, and their land 95% occupied and devastated (iirc).

As far as I know they did, the Roman's attacked with their full force because of Hannibal destroying the countryside of Italy. They then lost this battle, losing not just manpower but half of the Roman political hierarchy. They then refilled the ranks after 5 years, albeit not with the most "Roman" citizens, marched out and destroyed a hungry, ill supplied force.

No they're not. Once maybe if you want to speculate without any sort of evidence, but certainly not after the reformations into the Ruby Legions. Roman Legion =/= Tamriel's Legions.

No it's just called being sensible and knowing what race is better at what art of war.

Why would it be better comprised of Orcs or Nords? You're going off racial stereotype and expecting it to be the norm tactics for Tamriel's Empire. There's an Orc Legion Scout in the novels.

Because in lore Orc's and Nord's are the most hardy, enduring races of Tamriel, making them ideal units to be used in a shock troop. It would be far more effective to throw 100 Orc's at a position with two-handed/dual wielding than to throw 100 Wood Elves at them.

No they're not. Look at Morrowind's Legions, they weren't all Dark elves. Hammerfell's Legions would be pretty small then, considering Redguards on a whole rarely served in the Imperial army.

Legions are garrisoned in the provinces, and given that many Nords serve in the Imperial Legions. You're going to find plenty of Nords.

Yet you'll find more Nords in areas they are better suited for.. Illogical to garrison Nords in Hammerfell and Dunmer in Skyrim for example.

To your local Nord, yes. To Ulfric?

To Ulfric, no.. Because wasting time and men rearing a god damn stone step is stupid in the current situation.

Yes, the Jarl of Markarth is fully aware of a secret Daedric Cult of cannibals running around. Each Hold has their problems, Windhelm's one is the murders. Ulfric dealing with city repairs is one I'm sure doesn't require much snooping, especially since you have people telling you about it.

They're aware bodies are being eaten and simply lock the catacombs until the player arrives. Not point scoring, just pointing out each hold has it's problems.

Logically speaking you'd do it before you come under siege, that way there isn't any weakness. Either way even if you can't do it right then, you can at least acknowledge it.

There is no weakness should the City come under siege. The defensive points are quite fine.

Come on, the man listens to Galmar wanting a Dragon, Torsten wanting Ulfric to fund a large fleet because it would be glorious. He can't just say to a third of his city, he'll look into it? He could just send his steward to bullpl***.

Perhaps he should, but perhaps he also feels it's not worth looking into in the grand scheme of things. His steward says they show little concern for his rebellion, I'm sure renovating the walls in their slum is of little concern to him.

Most likely it was built before the Stormcloaks were official, I'm not sure though as the "Stormcloaks" have been a thing for years. Both Riften and Windhelm had a large influx of refugees due to their eastern borders.

Exactly, and in a time/place where "equality" means next to nothing, it's no surprise the more old fashioned Nords of the Old Holds were not very happy to see their country infested by a people they have been fighting with on and off for century's.

Orcs don't generally live long, and that same source is Bethesda's official canon stance. According to legend Shor caused their lifespan to be shorter.

Bethesda devs seem to disagree and contradict each other more than the players do lol.

Which is what? Bring part of their culture into Skyrim? I'm surprised there aren't more unique businesses and other various shops. Been part of the Empire for centuries.

Yeah, into Skyrim. I'm sure in Cyrodill (The "progressive" province of Tamriel) there's bits and pieces of each culture everywhere but I seriously doubt you'll see such a thing in any other province.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I mean that most Dark Elves are alive today that were alive when they practiced slavery, no humans are.

Doesn't mean they were the ones who agreed with slavery. Since it is still not practiced, despite them no longer being part of the Empire and House Hlaalu are outcasts it stands reason to believe it is no longer seen as a traditional right. It was a practice that was going out of favor hundreds of years ago, now you're still blaming them for it. Slavery was common all across Tamriel, and in some provinces it still is on going.

Bolfrida: "I'll bet this is better than trying to grow something in Morrowind, though, isn't it?"
Faryl: "Firstly, I've never even seen Morrowind. Secondly, in volcanic soil the plants practically grow themselves."

Of course they do, or else the soldiers wouldn't have ignored the order.

No they don't, no one ignored the order. The Imperial General there found a way to carry out his orders and not leave Hammerfell completely, so he discharged a large number of his men to continue to push back the Aldmeri, the Redguards themselves make no comment about the fact the Legion went onto fight Red Ring. Everyone agreed that they needed to pull together and fight that major battle, or they would be defeated. It was after the battle, people had issues.

This is what the Redguards believe 'In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire.'

Show me once where it states the Redguards were angry at the Emperor ordering the Legions to recapture the Imperial City?

It's the way you view these situations. The Nord having a relationship with the Elf, to you, is nothing more than a coincidence and not to be taken into Stormcloak ideology. So with that logic, Rollff & Angrenor are just narrow minded individuals and their views should not be taken into Stormcloak ideology. You either take the whole and paint a picture, or you need to treat each case as individual. The way you build up a case based on NPC dialogue can't change based on the faction.

One Nord doesn't change how majority of the Stormcloaks are across the various Holds they capture. I'm not saying every single Stormcloak, down to the last man, woman and child who supports Ulfric agrees with every single thing. However, a large section of Ulfric's forces do feel the way they do, and a pointing out how one person is having sex with an elf doesn't remove how they act.

Not everyone fighting for the Stormcloaks agrees with everything about Ulfric, just as not everyone in the Legion agrees with certain things happening in the Empire.

The issue you have at the moment is you're going for extremes. Either the Stormcloaks are completely racist, or they're not even remotely racist.

That's petty considering no NPC buy's anything from anyone. But the fact that the shop is open and sells things is an indication that people buy from it..

So is the shop in Whiterun, you're assuming the Stormcloaks buy from this elf. The Stormcloaks are a militia, while local residents may buy from it, it doesn't mean the Stormcloaks themselves actually do. Even if they did, it still doesn't change the fact that the militia that took over in Whiterun is against them due to race.

She has no loyalty towards the Stormcloaks, therefor she isn't to be trusted. It's nothing to do with race as can be proven with the example above.

Why does she need loyalty towards the Stormcloaks? So because she has no stance, therefor she will poison you. It has everything to do with race in the case of Whiterun.

Except they don't, not because of her race. As can be proven with the example above.

Yes they do, it is entirely due to her race. What example, the fact there is an Altmer all the way in Windhelm?

Mistrust and dislike. If they hated non-Nords, they wouldn't associate with a Nord who is married to a non-Nord.

I'm not saying they do hate them, you'd get those that do. A large majority of Ulfric's forces (The Stormcloaks) are against non-Nords. It doesn't mean every single one of them are, but a large enough group that it makes non-Nords dislike them enough.

The only aesthetic damage to the Gray-Quarter is the hole above Sadri's shop and that isn't even part of the building foundation, it's part of the walkway for the upper patrol.

It's a sunken slum, and extremely cramped alley. It needs repair. The whole section is barely held together judging by the outside roofing and shanty look to it all.

I honestly think flood would be an issue, with how it is designed.

Yes they are, they are given jobs, homes, opportunities.

They're able to work, yes. Which means they do in fact work then and don't freeload.

As can be proven by some Dunmer(Elves in General) having a higher standing than Stormcloaks in Eastmarch.

Higher standing? A sunken, run down section of the city that is poorly patrolled by the guard and has the brother of Ulfric's right hand man yelling drunken insults during the early hours of the morning.

Faryl even talks about how his brother is ashamed of him for working FOR the Nords, to which he says "At least I can afford to eat", further showing they'd rather not work for Nords than eat..

So the fact that his brother doesn't, it now shows they'd all rather not work for Nords? You have more than one Dunmer working for Nords. Yes, many are poor and scrap by, but it has nothing to do with the changes they want to looked at for the section of the city they live in.

No, I'm saying you can't say they don't need to worship him publicly.

They don't. They can if they want, but it isn't disrespectful that many Nords choose to keep worship in private. You stated it was disrespectful to the Stormcloaks to worship a god quietly.

So it's general dialogue when a non-Stormcloak NPC uses it, but proof of racism if a Stormcloak uses it?..

No, it is still an anti non-Nord outlook. I'm not talking about what they shout in combat, it even has Imperials shout it at times. Not once am I even going on about what generic lines are said, but the belief many in the Stormcloaks share.

And at the same time, a Stormcloak.

My character likes stealing, and even says as much. Therefor Stormcloaks are not all about glory, and are a bunch of thieves?

Your character's faction doesn't relate to that conversation.

I'm not debating that, I'm debating that racism is something that seems to bind the Stormcloaks, when it clearly isn't.

Why are we debating two unrelated things? I'm not saying it binds the Stormcloaks, or it is even what unites them under Ulfric's cause. I'm saying that many of those in the Stormcloaks have those views, and that it comes across that way to a lot of non-nords.

I don't care if Ulfric himself is the most passive, elf loving, khajiit fan boy out there. His men, and those who advise him are not.

Not really, political party's shift every couple of years changing who and what the country is prioritising. Ulfric is the current shift and he is prioritising Nords and Nordic religion.

Such is life when Talos was banned.

That's just being smart against a force that has a superior numerical and logistical advantage. My point still stands, if the Empire was anyway it's former self, the rebellion wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes.. Weather that would be because nobody would rally around the cause due to loyalty, there would be no reason to rebel in the first place and even if it did gain traction, the Empire wouldn't just send a general, a skeleton legion and rely on local recruitment to stop it.

Okay, what what you're arguing here is that if the Empire had suffered from a massive war, dealing with various internal issues. The rebellion wouldn't last, cause there would be no reason to rebel. Tiber lost against his rebellion, so I don't get what you're on about.

"The Empire wouldn't just send a general, a skeleton legion and rely on local recruitment" You're right, if they were facing the level of rebellion that Tullius is now, after the incident with Alduin.

Prior to Alduin, that one general, skeleton garrison and those all poor lyokels actually almost ended said uprising.

The fact that the Empire can't muster up enough men to stop a rebellion that hasn't even spread throughout the whole of Skyrim yet is embarrassing and shows the ability of the current Empire.

They did, and they had caught Ulfric. You're expecting the Empire to have had some forward knowledge of this, and would know that the Civil War got a whole lot worse the moment Ulfric escaped.

If they can't pull troops off the border due to lack of men, then that surely shows, after 30 years that the Empire is STILL in no position to fight the Thalmor.

It isn't due to lack of men, it is due to lack of access. They're currently blocked, and the reason they can't pull too many off the border is because I don't know.. The real enemy is there? The rebellion is a distraction, and you expect the Empire to leave themselves exposed for another surprise attack?

The Empire has the men, they're just not giving them to Tullius. To the Imperial City the war in Skyrim is a sideshow, a distraction before the second Great War.

I think that just goes to show the ability of Tullius as a commander rather than the strength of the Empire. It's a shame such a mind is being wasted on killing imperial citizens rather than fighting the Elves.

It is a shame that every soldier dying, is one less to stand against the Aldmeri. That is Ulfric's fault, Tullius would still be in Cyrodiil had Ulfric not started his bullplops.

He showed he was capable, a shrewd tactician and a powerful user of The Voice. So yes, they left because they were following a man worth following.

He didn't have the Voice during the time they left the villages, if he even had it to begin with. For a man who had his throat slit, and could only whisper he spoke quite well. A lot about Tiber is shrouded by propaganda, and it still doesn't change the fact the Nords didn't simply join him due to being Dragonborn. Promises of wealth and glory was the main motivation for those Nords leaving their villages.

meh, it's a long, long time.. And though they are real world events, places/empires have rebuilt on a much quicker scale.

The Nords never recovered from their war which crippled their Empire. Why did they take so long?

As far as I know they did, the Roman's attacked with their full force because of Hannibal destroying the countryside of Italy. They then lost this battle, losing not just manpower but half of the Roman political hierarchy. They then refilled the ranks after 5 years, albeit not with the most "Roman" citizens, marched out and destroyed a hungry, ill supplied force.

Rome isn't Tamriel. The Great War is not Hannibal. You're also forgetting the large amounts of internal strife, the constant outbreaks of violence from criminals for two decades and now a rebellion. I'd say the Empire is very close to war going off the dialogue. The Second Great War is just around the corner.

One of the main things for Tamriel, don't try to apply our history to it. I doubt the average Roman citizen ever ran the risk of being killed by a walking bull with a hammer during a stroll.

Because in lore Orc's and Nord's are the most hardy, enduring races of Tamriel, making them ideal units to be used in a shock troop. It would be far more effective to throw 100 Orc's at a position with two-handed/dual wielding than to throw 100 Wood Elves at them.

Character stereotype doesn't mean much.

If we throw 100 Nord farmers at a garrison of Bosmer soldiers who would win? What happens if we give that Orc cook a greatsword and send him? It would be far more effective to train soldiers and fill positions than to divide based on race. What happens if you don't have 100 Orcs or Nords at the time, and only have 100 Wood elves? Or those Orcs and Nords have no idea how to use two handed weapons? Simply not how the Imperial Legion works, and not once are you even going to find anything remotely showing that.

Yet you'll find more Nords in areas they are better suited for.. Illogical to garrison Nords in Hammerfell

You'll find more of a race depending on how much of the locals are enlisting into the Legion. Or where that Legion comes from, you can join the Imperial Legion and find yourself on tour in that desert.

Why is it illogical? A Nord Legionary and an Imperial Legionary would have the same training. You'd find Nords living all over Tamriel. Going off your strange outlook, why are there Imperials in Skyrim? Cyrodiil is a forest climate, obviously illogical to have them in Hammerfell or Skyrim.

and Dunmer in Skyrim for example.

Pay a visit to the Winterhold Imperial camp.

To Ulfric, no.. Because wasting time and men rearing a god damn stone step is stupid in the current situation.

No plops, so repairing a sunken district is a little more important than a step.

They're aware bodies are being eaten and simply lock the catacombs until the player arrives. Not point scoring, just pointing out each hold has it's problems.

Yes, and they're looking into it. They're not sure what is doing it, if it is someone or something. You just so happen to be the one there, and he was going to suggest the Jarl hire someone. This is a Temple of Arkay issue though, and the Priests are usually meant to deal with this, not the Count or Jarl.

This is also very different to maintaing your city.

There is no weakness should the City come under siege. The defensive points are quite fine.

You still have a sunken slum, that is falling apart and is too cramped for the number there. There are parts of the wall, missing in a few locations. It is still important, it could kill someone if a large chunk of stone or a building collapsed.

Maintaining the city should be normal, not a huge fuss.

Perhaps he should, but perhaps he also feels it's not worth looking into in the grand scheme of things. His steward says they show little concern for his rebellion, I'm sure renovating the walls in their slum is of little concern to him.

It's his city. His duty is to his citizens, if he can't rule fairly... Then Brunwulf is the better ruler.

Exactly, and in a time/place where "equality" means next to nothing,

Time and place being Fourth Era Windhelm?

it's no surprise the more old fashioned Nords of the Old Holds were not very happy to see their country infested by a people they have been fighting with on and off for century's.

They've fought a lot of people.

Bethesda devs seem to disagree and contradict each other more than the players do lol.

They change things, and contradict everything a lot of the time. This wasn't an in-game book offering differing views, and fleshing out the mystery of what is in fact true. This was a Q&A, and to be fair I see nothing wrong with it since most old elves were mages, and Orcs were mentioned to having lost long lifespans before Skyrim came out.

Yeah, into Skyrim. I'm sure in Cyrodill (The "progressive" province of Tamriel) there's bits and pieces of each culture everywhere but I seriously doubt you'll see such a thing in any other province.

You get your various pockets of it in certain locations. The Reach was once able to be mistaken for a petty kingdom of High Rock with the amount of Bretons, Elves and Khajiit.

 

[Lewsean]

Doesn't mean they were the ones who agreed with slavery. Since it is still not practiced, despite them no longer being part of the Empire and House Hlaalu are outcasts it stands reason to believe it is no longer seen as a traditional right. It was a practice that was going out of favor hundreds of years ago, now you're still blaming them for it. Slavery was common all across Tamriel, and in some provinces it still is on going.

I'm not blaming them for it, but as the real world shows it doesn't matter how many people died fighting to rid the world of slavery, you'll still be blamed for it if your "people" were part of it.

Bolfrida:

"I'll bet this is better than trying to grow something in Morrowind, though, isn't it?"
Faryl: "Firstly, I've never even seen Morrowind. Secondly, in volcanic soil the plants practically grow themselves."

Ambarys is from Morrowind, he tells you Windhelm was the first City the refugees saw when they left Morrowind, he also tells you how he's moving BACK to Morrowind after he's made enough money. Showing he's using money to move, not to maintain his store, the same store people demand Ulfric to "fix".

The Imperial General there found a way to carry out his orders and not leave Hammerfell completely, so he discharged a large number of his men to continue to push back the Aldmeri, the Redguards themselves make no comment about the fact the Legion went onto fight Red Ring. Everyone agreed that they needed to pull together and fight that major battle, or they would be defeated. It was after the battle, people had issues.

He discharged his men so they wouldn't be charged with desertion. He disagreed with the order.
Hammerfell's relations with the Empire remained strained after the treaty despite their mutual opposition to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Redguards believed that they had been betrayed when Titus II first agreed to the White-Gold Concordat, which stipulated that a significant portion of Hammerfell be ceded to the Dominion, then renounced Hammerfell as an Imperial province when it protested the Concordat's terms. Following the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai, Hammerfell was left an independent yet severely diminished nation.

This is what the Redguards believe 'In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire.'
Show me once where it states the Redguards were angry at the Emperor ordering the Legions to recapture the Imperial City?

lol, you want a written bloody note "Emperor, we are not happy you left us to the Elves and lost your nerve so we are ignoring the WGC and are continue fighting".
There's also a crazy necromancer who lost her husband due to the Empire's withdrawal from Hammerfell, during the quest to find the old Windhelm Queen's sword for Ulfric.

One Nord doesn't change how majority of the Stormcloaks are across the various Holds they capture. I'm not saying every single Stormcloak, down to the last man, woman and child who supports Ulfric agrees with every single thing. However, a large section of Ulfric's forces do feel the way they do, and a pointing out how one person is having sex with an elf doesn't remove how they act.

It's not just "one person having sex with an elf". You just take each case and treat them as individuals, whilst you take each case of racism and treat it as a larger group. Obviously it can't be helped, bias will always show to the side we support no matter how hard we try. It seems most people believe a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim won't have a single foreigner living there, which is a complete lie when you examine it deeply. A lot of Stormcloaks are ex-legion, which shows, in my opinion, you don't need to be a Stormcloak to hate outsiders. Galmar hates elves(Though, High Elves imo), but he's ex legion meaning he fought side by side with elves.

Not everyone fighting for the Stormcloaks agrees with everything about Ulfric, just as not everyone in the Legion agrees with certain things happening in the Empire.

The issue you have at the moment is you're going for extremes. Either the Stormcloaks are completely racist, or they're not even remotely racist.

I'm following the logic of using independent statements to judge the whole. If a group of people with racist sentiments make the Stormcloaks racist, which many, many people stand by, then the examples that go against that way of thinking prove they aren't racist. It's like Brexit, if you support it you're a racist because some who support it hold those views.

So is the shop in Whiterun, you're assuming the Stormcloaks buy from this elf. The Stormcloaks are a militia, while local residents may buy from it, it doesn't mean the Stormcloaks themselves actually do. Even if they did, it still doesn't change the fact that the militia that took over in Whiterun is against them due to race.

The logic behind that statement is unbelievable, especially from you. Do you assume Stormcloaks just stand around all day telling people about how they used to be an adventurer? Christ.. I'm sorry if this comes across as a dick statement but I'm not continuing this specific debate if you're going to come out with stuff like that.

Why does she need loyalty towards the Stormcloaks? So because she has no stance, therefor she will poison you. It has everything to do with race in the case of Whiterun.

She does have a stance, she's a proud citizen of the Empire, words from her own mouth.. The Stormcloaks can rot in hell for all she cares. Now guys, go buy potions from the Imperial loyalists who wants you all to rot in hell! #Logic

Yes they do, it is entirely due to her race. What example, the fact there is an Altmer all the way in Windhelm?

Well, yes... You said yourself they're Ulfric's personal army and they come from Eastmarch and the surrounding holds. Why are you ignoring the fact that many of them spent decades buying potions from a High Elf and claiming they aren't buying from her because of her race? lol.. Buy horses from High Elves, Potions from High Elves, let a Dunmer own farmland and employ Nords. But no, they're not buying from her because of racial reasons.. Right.

It's a sunken slum, and extremely cramped alley. It needs repair. The whole section is barely held together judging by the outside roofing and shanty look to it all.

It's extremely cramped due to being built to house an untold number of refugees. Sorry if they don't have their own little Hjerim.

They're able to work, yes. Which means they do in fact work then and don't freeload.

So why is it down to others to maintain their property? They don't even sweep their floor lmao.

Higher standing? A sunken, run down section of the city that is poorly patrolled by the guard and has the brother of Ulfric's right hand man yelling drunken insults during the early hours of the morning.

Higher standing by owning Alchemy stores, general stores, Stables, Farms etc Even the god damn guards tell you to shop at the Dunmer general store lol.. Much racism.

So the fact that his brother doesn't, it now shows they'd all rather not work for Nords? You have more than one Dunmer working for Nords. Yes, many are poor and scrap by, but it has nothing to do with the changes they want to looked at for the section of the city they live in.

It's not just his brother, he's glad he works outside of the city so people can't see him working for her, but yes, you can see that is the case by dialogue. They'd rather sit in a slum than realise the way things truly are.

Ambarys: "Don't you ever find it demeaning, working for that Nord family?"
Suvaris: "Look, Ambarys, I just came here for a drink. I don't need any trouble."
Ambarys: "Fine, then. I guess some Dunmer are content to be their pets."
Suvaris: "Here's what's going to happen. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that, and you're going to leave me alone. Deal?"

Ambarys: "What's new with the Cruel-Seas [sic] Suvaris? Have they given you one of those helmets with the horns on them yet?"
Suvaris: "What do you want from me? I work for them, okay? We're not friends. They pay me, and I get the job done. That's it."
Ambarys: "Touchy. Maybe some Dunmer lives in you yet."
Suvaris: "Either pour another drink or keep moving, Ambarys."

They don't. They can if they want, but it isn't disrespectful that many Nords choose to keep worship in private. You stated it was disrespectful to the Stormcloaks to worship a god quietly.

And judging by the rebellion it is.

No, it is still an anti non-Nord outlook. I'm not talking about what they shout in combat, it even has Imperials shout it at times. Not once am I even going on about what generic lines are said, but the belief many in the Stormcloaks share.

The only time that is ever said is during combat. If it was meant to be a Stormcloak only dialogue it would've been that way.

Your character's faction doesn't relate to that conversation.

So that conversation doesn't relate to your faction.... Which is further implied by Nords such as Lydia saying the same thing.

Why are we debating two unrelated things? I'm not saying it binds the Stormcloaks, or it is even what unites them under Ulfric's cause. I'm saying that many of those in the Stormcloaks have those views, and that it comes across that way to a lot of non-nords.

"It's not the cold of Skyrim that gets me. It's the stink of the people."
"Hrmmm. Pick up your trash, fetcher."

I don't care if Ulfric himself is the most passive, elf loving, khajiit fan boy out there. His men, and those who advise him are not.

Another broad statement using the words of individuals to label the whole group, whilst at the same time ignoring the words of individuals from that group which prove you wrong... Funny how the Argonian's being banned from Solitude didin't cause any fuss during Torygg's years.

Such is life when Talos was banned.

Indeed, and Ulfric is the next step in that process

Okay, what what you're arguing here is that if the Empire had suffered from a massive war, dealing with various internal issues. The rebellion wouldn't last, cause there would be no reason to rebel. Tiber lost against his rebellion, so I don't get what you're on about.

No, i'm saying if the Empire still held any authority and respect they wouldn't need to quell a rebellion in the first place due to loyalty from Skyrim, from the words of the rebels themselves this war only started due to the Empire not having the strength or authority to warrant respect from the Nord people anymore, they aren't rebelling against the Empire that Talos built, because in their eyes, that Empire is dead.

The fact that the Empire can't muster up enough men to stop a rebellion that hasn't even spread throughout the whole of Skyrim yet is embarrassing and shows the ability of the current Empire.

No they didn't. Ulfric was stopped due to being outmanoeuvred by a better tactician, that shows absolutely nothing when it comes to military ability.

It isn't due to lack of men, it is due to lack of access. They're currently blocked, and the reason they can't pull too many off the border is because I don't know.. The real enemy is there? The rebellion is a distraction, and you expect the Empire to leave themselves exposed for another surprise attack?

If you can't afford to pull men from your border without risking full invasion to quell a rebellion that is merely a sideshow then you don't have the resources to fight another war.

It is a shame that every soldier dying, is one less to stand against the Aldmeri. That is Ulfric's fault, Tullius would still be in Cyrodiil had Ulfric not started his bullpl***.

Not at all, Ulfric wants to fight the Elves, any attempt to quell the rebellion is merely a consolidation of power to keep the "Empire". It's like a rich man turned poor stuffing his pockets full of stones to make him self look wealthy.. Skyrim, unfortunately, is the proverbial stone.

He didn't have the Voice during the time they left the villages, if he even had it to begin with. For a man who had his throat slit, and could only whisper he spoke quite well. A lot about Tiber is shrouded by propaganda, and it still doesn't change the fact the Nords didn't simply join him due to being Dragonborn. Promises of wealth and glory was the main motivation for those Nords leaving their villages.

Yes he did, he was merely a General before those events happened. You can argue all you want but in no way whatsoever did every male leave their village because some random guy came and promised wealth/glory.

The Nords never recovered from their war which crippled their Empire. Why did they take so long?

One province vs an Empire? Great comparison. Besides, that Empire was crippled due to the death of the King and internal strife.

Rome isn't Tamriel. The Great War is not Hannibal. You're also forgetting the large amounts of internal strife, the constant outbreaks of violence from criminals for two decades and now a rebellion. I'd say the Empire is very close to war going off the dialogue. The Second Great War is just around the corner.

One of the main things for Tamriel, don't try to apply our history to it. I doubt the average Roman citizen ever ran the risk of being killed by a walking bull with a hammer during a stroll.

They are humans, humans died and they repopulated their human army with more humans. You're ignoring the point based on facts that have absolutely no baring on the point AT ALL.

Character stereotype doesn't mean much.

Yes they do, it's lore and fact. A Nord can handle cold better, a High Elf is better at magic, a Bosmer is better at Archery, an Orc has high endurance, Dunmer specialise in fire.. There's a reason Dunmer produce better spellswords, because they're better at it.

If we throw 100 Nord farmers at a garrison of Bosmer soldiers who would win? What happens if we give that Orc cook a greatsword and send him? It would be far more effective to train soldiers and fill positions than to divide based on race. What happens if you don't have 100 Orcs or Nords at the time, and only have 100 Wood elves? Or those Orcs and Nords have no idea how to use two handed weapons? Simply not how the Imperial Legion works, and not once are you even going to find anything remotely showing that.

It's not division based on race, it's using racial superiority in certain scenarios. Your example is a mere strawman argument, I said nothing about throwing 100 farmers at a bosmer fortification and such a thing is completely unfathomable.

You'll find more of a race depending on how much of the locals are enlisting into the Legion. Or where that Legion comes from, you can join the Imperial Legion and find yourself on tour in that desert.

Of course, and the first option would be to send in your desert trained troops, not a bunch of brutes who probably don't even know what sand is and confuse it for yellow snow.

Why is it illogical? A Nord Legionary and an Imperial Legionary would have the same training. You'd find Nords living all over Tamriel. Going off your strange outlook, why are there Imperials in Skyrim? Cyrodiil is a forest climate, obviously illogical to have them in Hammerfell or Skyrim.

Because a lot of Redguard's don't even know what snow is. You expect them to garrison the coldest region? Your knowledge of military logistics and the sorts are severely lacking if you can't see the obvious benefits in garrisoning troops from a province in that province.

Pay a visit to the Winterhold Imperial camp.

I was under the assumption one off examples are merely that? Or is that Stormcloak side only Besides, the Legion in Skyrim is made up of volunteers and conscripts.

No pl***, so repairing a sunken district is a little more important than a step.

If it was broken I'd agree with you. It's no different than any other part of Windhelm.. The problems are INSIDE, which is absolutely no business whatsoever of anyone except the person living or working there.

Yes, and they're looking into it. They're not sure what is doing it, if it is someone or something. You just so happen to be the one there, and he was going to suggest the Jarl hire someone. This is a Temple of Arkay issue though, and the Priests are usually meant to deal with this, not the Count or Jarl.

And your own home/business is your issue to deal with, not the Court or the Jarl. Try setting up a business, letting it get run down, then crying to the City mayor that it's discrimination if they don't fix it for you.

This is also very different to maintaing your city.

No it isn't, it's just your bias showing by brushing off problems in Imperial loyal holds whilst digging to the core of problems in Windhelm and such. It's a job that needs doing and the Jarl hasn't done anything.

You still have a sunken slum, that is falling apart and is too cramped for the number there. There are parts of the wall, missing in a few locations. It is still important, it could kill someone if a large chunk of stone or a building collapsed.

No it's not. Take 5 minutes to TCL around the Gray-Quarter, it's nothing even remotely similar to how you describe.

It's his city. His duty is to his citizens, if he can't rule fairly... Then Brunwulf is the better ruler.

Nothing to do with ruling fairly, it's ruling smart during the time you're a severe underdog in a rebellion. You want special treatment for the Dunmer, not fair treatment.

Time and place being Fourth Era Windhelm?

Tamriel. Stop acting like it's a cosmopolitan haven everywhere but Windhelm/Skyrim.

They've fought a lot of people.

And you know full well they've fought the Dark Elves more.

They change things, and contradict everything a lot of the time. This wasn't an in-game book offering differing views, and fleshing out the mystery of what is in fact true. This was a Q&A, and to be fair I see nothing wrong with it since most old elves were mages, and Orcs were mentioned to having lost long lifespans before Skyrim came out.

I didn't mean that book got the Orc ages wrong, I mean that book says Orc's are a beast race, which is 100% wrong, so it's based on old unreliable lore.

You get your various pockets of it in certain locations. The Reach was once able to be mistaken for a petty kingdom of High Rock with the amount of Bretons, Elves and Khajiit.

Well in lore the Reach has always been fought over between High Rock & Skyrim, as (It should be anyway) Skyrim should be completely snow covered except for The Reach, that the Nords guard fiercely due to it being the only place that can sustain crops.


Edit: Please don't take anything too "offensive". Passion for a subject can lead to quite heated words. Thanks DM.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm not blaming them for it, but as the real world shows it doesn't matter how many people died fighting to rid the world of slavery, you'll still be blamed for it if your "people" were part of it.

Both the Nords and Imperials were slavers once.

Ambarys is from Morrowind, he tells you Windhelm was the first City the refugees saw when they left Morrowind, he also tells you how he's moving BACK to Morrowind after he's made enough money. Showing he's using money to move, not to maintain his store, the same store people demand Ulfric to "fix".

So? They're not all from Morrowind and only the very elite cared for slavery. Mainly House Telvanni.

He runs an inn, he's obviously using his money to maintain his store (how else would you get food and drink) but also save away some for himself. People aren't demanding Ulfric fix the store, they're asking him to look at the entire district.

He discharged his men so they wouldn't be charged with desertion. He disagreed with the order.

He discharged his men because he was unwilling to abandon the war in Hammerfell completely. It doesn't matter if he agreed or disagreed, he followed it and those under his command believed it was the right choice to fight Red Ring. After the fight he had been in, I don't doubt he didn't want to leave them without a bloody nose.

Hammerfell's relations with the Empire remained strained after the treaty despite their mutual opposition to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Redguards believed that they had been betrayed when Titus II first agreed to the White-Gold Concordat, which stipulated that a significant portion of Hammerfell be ceded to the Dominion, then renounced Hammerfell as an Imperial province when it protested the Concordat's terms. Following the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai, Hammerfell was left an independent yet severely diminished nation.

Yes, what I have stated. They are angry at Titus II and view his actions after Red Ring as wrong.

lol, you want a written bloody note "Emperor, we are not happy you left us to the Elves and lost your nerve so we are ignoring the WGC and are continue fighting".

That has nothing to do with them suddenly hating the Empire for pulling their Legions in Hammerfell east to fight Red Ring. Tactically it was the best move Titus II could make, otherwise they would have lost Cyrodiil entirely.

There's also a crazy necromancer who lost her husband due to the Empire's withdrawal from Hammerfell, during the quest to find the old Windhelm Queen's sword for Ulfric.

Her husband died during the Battle of the Red Ring. That crazy Necromancer blames Skyrim for not aiding Hammerfell. People die in war, hundreds of thousands of soldiers died. More would have died if Titus II lost Cyrodiil entirely.

It's not just "one person having sex with an elf". You just take each case and treat them as individuals, whilst you take each case of racism and treat it as a larger group. Obviously it can't be helped, bias will always show to the side we support no matter how hard we try.

I can argue for both sides. That Housecarl is a Stormcloak supporter, he's not against all other races you're correct. On the larger scale Ulfric's supporters are often against outsiders. They don't like them, view them as below a Nord etc. That is a belief that isn't unique to the Stormcloaks, it has been there for a long time, however, it is rooted in the Stormcloaks by the fact those people with those views are spreading and gaining more authority.

I don't really have a bias, I know Stormcloaks aren't completely racist, or it is a belief for the entire faction.

It seems most people believe a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim won't have a single foreigner living there, which is a complete lie when you examine it deeply. A lot of Stormcloaks are ex-legion, which shows, in my opinion, you don't need to be a Stormcloak to hate outsiders. Galmar hates elves(Though, High Elves imo), but he's ex legion meaning he fought side by side with elves.

There will still be other races in Skyrim, how they're treated in years to come is up to anyone's guess. Not every person fighting in this war is a fair and honorable person, you'd find those who will abuse their new found power on both sides.

I'm following the logic of using independent statements to judge the whole. If a group of people with racist sentiments make the Stormcloaks racist, which many, many people stand by, then the examples that go against that way of thinking prove they aren't racist. It's like Brexit, if you support it you're a racist because some who support it hold those views.

I'm not saying if you support the Stormcloaks you're racist, or intolerant of outsiders. I'm saying it is a view held commonly by those in the Old Holds. Where Stormcloaks are largely recruited from.

The logic behind that statement is unbelievable, especially from you. Do you assume Stormcloaks just stand around all day telling people about how they used to be an adventurer? Christ.. I'm sorry if this comes across as a dick statement but I'm not continuing this specific debate if you're going to come out with stuff like that.

There aren't that many Stormcloaks in Windhelm, they're spread across the province for the war. What soldiers Ulfric has currently stationed in his city may not care about this shop keeper. The guards of Windhelm are not those stationed in Whiterun, if any of them even came from Eastmarch personally.

She does have a stance, she's a proud citizen of the Empire, words from her own mouth.. The Stormcloaks can rot in hell for all she cares. Now guys, go buy potions from the Imperial loyalists who wants you all to rot in hell! #Logic

"Why, because I'm a proud citizen of the Empire? Because the Stormcloaks only want Nords in Skyrim? The Stormcloaks can rot in Oblivion for all I care. I've lived in this city for twenty years. Twenty!"

She says that when you ask if she ever thinks of returning to Cyrodiil. Whiterun is her home, and she views that the Stormcloaks only want Nords. It is a common view shared by many across Skyrim about the Stormcloaks, so obviously it must be coming from somewhere.

Well, yes... You said yourself they're Ulfric's personal army and they come from Eastmarch and the surrounding holds. Why are you ignoring the fact that many of them spent decades buying potions from a High Elf and claiming they aren't buying from her because of her race? lol.. Buy horses from High Elves, Potions from High Elves, let a Dunmer own farmland and employ Nords. But no, they're not buying from her because of racial reasons.. Right.

So, if we assume these Stormcloaks specifically (the ones occupying Whiterun) are the very same who lived in Windhelm's city, actually lived inside the walls. Also assuming they personally shopped at this store, why would they not shop at another stored owned by an entirely different race? He opened his store to attract adventurers who are quite well versed in an alchemy legend. The difference for him and the alchemy shop in Whiterun are the targeted customer.

There is an ex-Legion soldier in Oblivion who absolutely hated Nords, considered them barbarians, and a waste of breath in the Empire. He's not racist cause he's fine with a Dunmer. It doesn't work like that, and many Stormcloaks in Whiterun do not like to buy from non-Nords, as stated by the smith who is making less business for it. It isn't contradicted by the fact there are non-Nords with businesses in Eastmarch.

I'm not saying the Stormcloaks all across the country will never buy from non-nords, just there are those in Whiterun who are that way.

What do the Stormcloaks have to do with letting Dunmer own farmland? That is Ulfric, not theirs. He could take it away, but it serves no reason purpose. Who would tend the field, pay workers, manage the farm etc. Ulfric isn't his men.

It's extremely cramped due to being built to house an untold number of refugees. Sorry if they don't have their own little Hjerim.

They don't want a mansion. It just needs some improvements made to the district, it is slum. Wasn't always that way, but something being ignored will fester into a problem with the passage of time.

So why is it down to others to maintain their property? They don't even sweep their floor lmao.

Because Ulfric is Jarl, that is what happens when you become Jarl. You have something called responsibility. It all belongs to him. I'm not sure how things work in your country, but generally a landlord is responsible for repairs. You say the Dunmer should be the ones to do it, but making improvements to a city is very different to making an improvement to a homestead located somewhere in the Hold.

If the Dunmer owned some cottage out in some area of Eastmarch I'd agree. However, this is a city district owned by the Jarl.

Higher standing by owning Alchemy stores, general stores, Stables, Farms etc Even the god damn guards tell you to shop at the Dunmer general store lol.. Much racism.

Owning a business, means you still have to run said business and pay your tax. The Stormcloaks are an army, how exactly do they have higher standing? Because they run stores? That is how they choose to make money. Or is it because the Stormcloak soldiers aren't breaking the stores?

Opening a store doesn't mean you have higher standing, unless it does well, or you just think you have higher standing like that dick in Whiterun.

What guards say doesn't mean much, unless it is Imperial/Stormcloak specific.

It's not just his brother, he's glad he works outside of the city so people can't see him working for her, but yes, you can see that is the case by dialogue. They'd rather sit in a slum than realise the way things truly are.

Ambarys: "Don't you ever find it demeaning, working for that Nord family?"
Suvaris: "Look, Ambarys, I just came here for a drink. I don't need any trouble."
Ambarys: "Fine, then. I guess some Dunmer are content to be their pets."
Suvaris: "Here's what's going to happen. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that, and you're going to leave me alone. Deal?"

Ambarys: "What's new with the Cruel-Seas [sic] Suvaris? Have they given you one of those helmets with the horns on them yet?"
Suvaris: "What do you want from me? I work for them, okay? We're not friends. They pay me, and I get the job done. That's it."
Ambarys: "Touchy. Maybe some Dunmer lives in you yet."
Suvaris: "Either pour another drink or keep moving, Ambarys."

A self ran business owner states this, he even states that others work for Nords too. There are quite a few Dunmer who work for Nords, and how they make money doesn't relate much. I don't even remember what we're arguing here, the Dunmer all work and while some may earn more than others, they're still treated the same.

And judging by the rebellion it is.

Banning a God =/= silent worship. Two very different things, and there is a rebellion for many reasons. Going by the dialogue, Ulfric didn't have much open support until he killed Torygg.

The desire to rebel against the Empire isn't unique to Ulfric, or even the Stormcloaks. It was something that was brewing even before the White-Gold Concordat.

The only time that is ever said is during combat. If it was meant to be a Stormcloak only dialogue it would've been that way.

It is meant to be a view shared by many Stormcloaks, not a Stormcloak only dialogue.
Hence why you have so many NPCs putting these views in close association with the Stormcloaks.

So that conversation doesn't relate to your faction.... Which is further implied by Nords such as Lydia saying the same thing.

The conversation is about Ulfric, and the Stormcloaks. Your own side doesn't factor in to it.

"Yes. Anyone who's not a Nord is a trespasser."
"Is that so? You ought to join the Stormcloaks, if you haven't already. Seems to me they're a bunch of narrow-minded bigots, just like you. Meantime, you best steer clear of me."
"No. Skyrim's big enough for everyone."
"Good. Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words. He's tough, loyal to his men and a good leader, but if you're not a Nord, Ulfric will never trust you."

You'll come across Imperial soldiers shouting it... It is a voice file dialogue that often doesn't make sense due to the game limitations. I'm not going on about the combat dialogue, but the dialogue of those in-game when on about the Stormcloaks. It is closely related to them.

Another broad statement using the words of individuals to label the whole group, whilst at the same time ignoring the words of individuals from that group which prove you wrong... Funny how the Argonian's being banned from Solitude didin't cause any fuss during Torygg's years.

Argonians weren't banned from Solitude. Are you suggesting that because the headsman says that Jaree-Ra would never have entered Solitude while Torygg was alive = all Argonians? The man is a criminal strolling around in broad daylight, and is suspected to be up to no good by the Captain of the Guard.

If Argonians were banned during Torygg's rule... How has Gulim-Ei been in Solitude for many years? Torygg died a few months ago.

No, i'm saying if the Empire still held any authority and respect they wouldn't need to quell a rebellion in the first place due to loyalty from Skyrim, from the words of the rebels themselves this war only started due to the Empire not having the strength or authority to warrant respect from the Nord people anymore, they aren't rebelling against the Empire that Talos built, because in their eyes, that Empire is dead.

Skyrim has rebelled several times in the past, Imperial authority isn't all that high in the land, especially in the east. To the Stormcloaks, the Empire is unfit to rule in their eyes. Doesn't mean it couldn't still crush them, depends more on politics. People in Cyrodiil probably wouldn't care to waste resources, unless you caused the nobility to turn against you. You have to remember that not everyone in the Empire views that they should be in other provinces, in fact there were those who argued they should leave those provinces.

No they didn't. Ulfric was stopped due to being outmanoeuvred by a better tactician, that shows absolutely nothing when it comes to military ability.

Yes, and at the time they had wanted posters for him. It was a minor uprising that got worse once the dragons returned, nothing to unleash your military might over at the time. It also has a lot to do with military ability, if you get ambushed in your own damn capital Hold.

If you can't afford to pull men from your border without risking full invasion to quell a rebellion that is merely a sideshow then you don't have the resources to fight another war.

They have some forces getting ready to march into Skyrim, once Pale Pass is cleared. They're currently blocked, and Titus is refusing to pull a lot off the border. Unless Ulfric is blamed for Titus II's death, then it would be different. The Emperor is the one denying Tullius the large reinforcements he wants.

Choosing not to waste a large portion of your military in an area that is as far from the main threat as you can get, doesn't mean they don't have the resources to fight the Great War. It just shows they have their damn priorities straight, unlike certain people.

"You're not throwing countless lives away in something you believe the Thalmor want! YOU MUST BE WEAK"

Not at all, Ulfric wants to fight the Elves, any attempt to quell the rebellion is merely a consolidation of power to keep the "Empire". It's like a rich man turned poor stuffing his pockets full of stones to make him self look wealthy.. Skyrim, unfortunately, is the proverbial stone.

Ulfric wants to fight the elves, so he killed the High King and declared war against the western Holds. The Legion attempting to quell the rebellion is generally what happens when you start a violent uprising, throwing the entire province into chaos.

Skyrim provides the Empire with quite a lot, it is hardly a pocket full of stones.

Yes he did, he was merely a General before those events happened. You can argue all you want but in no way whatsoever did every male leave their village because some random guy came and promised wealth/glory.

It was majority of the young men, and it wasn't every village though. I'm not saying some random came offering wealth and glory, but these people were still motivated by wealth and glory.

"I found many of these mountain villages almost empty of young men, who have been seduced into joining Septim's army by promises of wealth and glory"

Personally, I think many were been conscripted or lured by falsehood, much of Tiber was propaganda. You likely would have had someone like Tullius governing Skyrim during Tiber's rule, he preferred his Colovian Officers to control regions of his Empire. They often were his most ruthless administrators.

One province vs an Empire? Great comparison. Besides, that Empire was crippled due to the death of the King and internal strife.

It wasn't one province, Skyrim controlled High Rock, Morrowind and parts of Cyrodiil for a time.

The Imperial Empire has had internal strife and a Great War, them taking twenty six years isn't much of a stretch. Hundreds of thousands to millions would have died. Both military and civilian. Takes time to recover a massive loss of life, and rebuild the largest province.

You have a lot of things to put back into order, twenty six years isn't really a super long time in the grand scheme. From all the dialogue with Thalmor and the Imperial Legion, the Empire and Dominion are on the brink of war. Both sides are gathering.

They are humans, humans died and they repopulated their human army with more humans. You're ignoring the point based on facts that have absolutely no baring on the point AT ALL.

What facts? That what an Empire in our world did, somehow translates into what the Empire in Tamriel can do? That isn't facts, and all you're saying is "They repopulated their army". The Imperial Army isn't under populated.

Rebuilding an entire province, recovering from such a huge loss of life and a lot of outbreaks of violence takes more than five years. Your entire point here has no baring on this debate. Both the Dominion and Empire are on the brink of war, them taking twenty six years really isn't much when looking at everything that happened.

Yes they do, it's lore and fact.

No, you're going off the player character and a generalization.

A Nord can handle cold better,

Yet, large numbers of Dunmer were once found in the coldest region in Skyrim. The Altmer stable owner in Windhelm loves the cold.

a High Elf is better at magic,

One of the greatest Mages in Tamriel was a Nord. A High Elf Mage is better, because he practices and studies. They may be a more magically gifted race, where you'd find more of them able to learn magic.

a Bosmer is better at Archery,

"Bosmer have a reputation as peerless archers. It's hard to practice as an archer with that lingering over you, because there'll always be someone heckling about it. "Hey you're a Bosmer, shouldn't you already be a master?" It's foolish." - Hurthinnor

You don't naturally have this ability.

an Orc has high endurance,

Depends entirely on lifestyle, just like any person. In fact the Orcs had a hard time when they were escorted by the 7th & 15th Legions to safety.

Dunmer specialise in fire.. There's a reason Dunmer produce better spellswords, because they're better at it.

Actually a very diverse race, producing great heavy infantry, wizards, even farmers. No one is better than anything, just like any skill you must learn and practice. They're not all Dragonborn who absorb decades of knowledge by smacking a dragon.

It's not division based on race, it's using racial superiority in certain scenarios. Your example is a mere strawman argument, I said nothing about throwing 100 farmers at a bosmer fortification and such a thing is completely unfathomable.

It's using racial generalization, and gameplay mechanics as fact of life in the world of Tamriel. Gameplay aside, we're talking about the people living in it who are as diverse as you see. A Nord isn't born a warrior, they need training like everyone else. Same as a Bosmer with a bow.

The reason you have these racial generalization is based on either great figures, or historical events/legends. Like Imperials being great light infantry, because in the First Era Colovians only could produce leather armor in large volumes.

Of course, and the first option would be to send in your desert trained troops, not a bunch of brutes who probably don't even know what sand is and confuse it for yellow snow.

You're trained to fight in all areas, the only changes are to equipment. Nords have fought and won in Hammerfell in their history. You find the races all across Tamriel. A Nord who has lived in Anvil all his life, never having been to Skyrim is hardly going to be an expert in frozen wasteland combat.

Because a lot of Redguard's don't even know what snow is. You expect them to garrison the coldest region? Your knowledge of military logistics and the sorts are severely lacking if you can't see the obvious benefits in garrisoning troops from a province in that province.

There are Redguards Legionaries in Skyrim. While I may not be an expert on the military, I can see that the Imperial Legion is very diverse. You can't exactly devote your tactics to a generalization. Your standard fella in Tamriel isn't the best, and your average soldier isn't going to be amazing.

I was under the assumption one off examples are merely that? Or is that Stormcloak side only Besides, the Legion in Skyrim is made up of volunteers and conscripts.

I doubt a Legate is a conscript. You also have that farmer, and Skyrim has been home to dark elves for centuries. Winterhold used to be full of them, until they were driven off. You also have an Altmer Legate, and a Breton Legate.

If it was broken I'd agree with you. It's no different than any other part of Windhelm.. The problems are INSIDE, which is absolutely no business whatsoever of anyone except the person living or working there.

No it's not. Take 5 minutes to TCL around the Gray-Quarter, it's nothing even remotely similar to how you describe.

"The Dark Elves live in a run-down slum called the Gray Quarter. Ulfric's content to keep it that way. I guess they think I can open Ulfric's eyes to their plight, and get him to lift a finger on their behalf. I'm trying, but Ulfric is set in his ways. For him, there's two kinds of people in this world -- Nords, and the folk beneath them."

"You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."

"Windhelm is divided into four quarters. The Gray Quarter is the one that's home to all the city's Dark Elves. If it looks to you like an impoverished slum, that's because it is. Ulfric prefers that we live in squalor. He has nothing but disdain for anyone who isn't a Nord. He tolerates us, but that's the extent of his hospitality."

"Well you see where we have to live. This forgotten alley. All the filth from the upper quarters flows downhill, like they say. Good luck getting one of the guards to help with anything. I tried to get Ulfric to even come down here to see the squalor, but the High Lord of His Mightiness couldn't find the time."

Nothing to do with ruling fairly, it's ruling smart during the time you're a severe underdog in a rebellion. You want special treatment for the Dunmer, not fair treatment.

It isn't smart ruling to allow unrest in a third of your city, a previous Jarl of Windhelm had a revolt and it ended badly for him. All the Dunmer ask is that Ulfric acknowledges the problem, they're not expecting sudden change.

How are they a severe underdog, if you were claiming the Empire is weak, and doesn't have resources for a war? Ulfric should be winning against Tullius if they're so under populated.

Tamriel. Stop acting like it's a cosmopolitan haven everywhere but Windhelm/Skyrim.

Whiterun, Solitude, Riften, Markarth, Chorrol, Anvil, Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel, Raven Rock, Cheydinhal, Imperial City, Skingrad. List can continue.

Windhelm is known for not being friendly.

"It's an old city, I can tell you that. The Palace of the Kings is ancient. It's not the friendliest place for outsiders. The Dark Elves were all forced to live in a slum called the Grey Quarter. The Argonians can't even live inside the walls. They're all stuck out on the docks. Still, Candlehearth Hall's got decent food and cheap bunks. You could do worse." - Alfarinn

And you know full well they've fought the Dark Elves more.

No, I think they're pretty much even spread at the moment. First Era, yeah. Three Eras later? Getting attacked by Nords is normal.

I didn't mean that book got the Orc ages wrong, I mean that book says Orc's are a beast race, which is 100% wrong, so it's based on old unreliable lore.

It isn't a book? What book are you talking about? It was a Q&A with the creators. Orcs weren't listed as a beast race, they have the same lifespan as the beast races.

Well in lore the Reach has always been fought over between High Rock & Skyrim, as (It should be anyway) Skyrim should be completely snow covered except for The Reach, that the Nords guard fiercely due to it being the only place that can sustain crops.

The Rift is considered the best location for farming in general. Quite fertile lands, and a good climate. (At least the Imperial Legion views it that way). Whiterun is another okay location, Rorikstead is considered the best farming village in the province.

The Reach would be good for mining, from all the mountains. Though it has a Forsworn problem, which it has had for Eras.

 

[Lewsean]

Both the Nords and Imperials were slavers once.

That was maybe two ERA'S ago, not two hundred years ago.

So? They're not all from Morrowind and only the very elite cared for slavery. Mainly House Telvanni.

He runs an inn, he's obviously using his money to maintain his store (how else would you get food and drink) but also save away some for himself. People aren't demanding Ulfric fix the store, they're asking him to look at the entire district.

So why is it down to Ulfric to maintain his store if he has the money to save for his inevitable return to Morrowind? The district is fine, it has no problems WHATSOEVER that aren't prevalent in other areas of the city. This is simply a result of some Dunmer having to leave their privileged lives and not willing to adapt to the way things are in Skyrim, the ones who have accepted the truth are thriving.

He discharged his men because he was unwilling to abandon the war in Hammerfell completely. It doesn't matter if he agreed or disagreed, he followed it and those under his command believed it was the right choice to fight Red Ring. After the fight he had been in, I don't doubt he didn't want to leave them without a bloody nose.

Nothing to do with a bloody nose, he just knew it was a cowardly and damned dishonourable to remove an entire provinces only means of defending themselves.

That has nothing to do with them suddenly hating the Empire for pulling their Legions in Hammerfell east to fight Red Ring. Tactically it was the best move Titus II could make, otherwise they would have lost Cyrodiil entirely.

Precisely, it was tactically the best move to protect Cyrodill whilst ignoring the needs of his provinces and after he protected Cyrodill the peace treaty further screwed Hammerfell by demanding they hand over territory.
So, the Emperor removes the legions for "the greater good" (lol, funny how the greater good always benefits Cyrodill heh) to defend Cyrodill leaving Hammerfell to their own then after he successfully recaptured Cyrodill, the abandoning of Hammerfell is made even worse by the giving up of her territory in the peace treaty.
It's insanely illogical to assume anyone would be fine with such events. If that was the case, I see no reason why Hammerfell would continue as an independent nation.

Her husband died during the Battle of the Red Ring. That crazy Necromancer blames Skyrim for not aiding Hammerfell. People die in war, hundreds of thousands of soldiers died. More would have died if Titus II lost Cyrodiil entirely.

No she doesn't, she blames the Empire for her husband dying in the war. I remember it 100% as when I made the comment I was doing the quest and reading her journal lol. She also states the Stormcloaks are fools for not using her power to defeat the Empire. Ending with something along the lines of "No matter, they will all die".

There will still be other races in Skyrim, how they're treated in years to come is up to anyone's guess. Not every person fighting in this war is a fair and honorable person, you'd find those who will abuse their new found power on both sides.

That would only matter if the racist side of the Stormcloaks was set in stone in their policy's.

There aren't that many Stormcloaks in Windhelm, they're spread across the province for the war. What soldiers Ulfric has currently stationed in his city may not care about this shop keeper.(I'm saying it is a view held commonly by those in the Old Holds. Where Stormcloaks are largely recruited from. - These two statements contadict each other extremely.)
The guards of Windhelm are not those stationed in Whiterun, if any of them even came from Eastmarch personally.

Yes there is... All the guards, the tavern owner, the Smith's, Captain Lonely-Gale is an admirer and supporter of Ulfric.. His men come from Eastern holds which mean you NEED to apply what happens in Eastern holds to anything you judge the Stormcloaks by.

"Why, because I'm a proud citizen of the Empire? Because the Stormcloaks only want Nords in Skyrim? The Stormcloaks can rot in Oblivion for all I care. I've lived in this city for twenty years. Twenty!"

She says that when you ask if she ever thinks of returning to Cyrodiil. Whiterun is her home, and she views that the Stormcloaks only want Nords. It is a common view shared by many across Skyrim about the Stormcloaks, so obviously it must be coming from somewhere.

Why does the question effect the answer lmao? She reacts like that after a simple question, it shows she has some serious inner frustrations and anger towards the Stormcloaks. I'll continue it in the question below, no point repeating myself.

So, if we assume these Stormcloaks specifically (the ones occupying Whiterun) are the very same who lived in Windhelm's city, actually lived inside the walls. Also assuming they personally shopped at this store, why would they not shop at another stored owned by an entirely different race? He opened his store to attract adventurers who are quite well versed in an alchemy legend. The difference for him and the alchemy shop in Whiterun are the targeted customer.

Doesn't matter if you want to narrow it down to Windhelm, the same can be applied to all Eastern holds.
I also explained why, she's loyal to the Empire & she hates Stormcloaks.. Must be an idiot to buy a tonic from someone who shows outright disdain for you and your cause and is loyal to the enemy..

There is an ex-Legion soldier in Oblivion who absolutely hated Nords, considered them barbarians, and a waste of breath in the Empire. He's not racist cause he's fine with a Dunmer. It doesn't work like that, and many Stormcloaks in Whiterun do not like to buy from non-Nords, as stated by the smith who is making less business for it. It isn't contradicted by the fact there are non-Nords with businesses in Eastmarch.

Yes it is connected, considering Stormcloaks hail from Eastern holds. They didn't just grow them in fields, Stormcloaks are people, with wives and children and houses.

I'm not saying the Stormcloaks all across the country will never buy from non-nords, just there are those in Whiterun who are that way.

What do the Stormcloaks have to do with letting Dunmer own farmland? That is Ulfric, not theirs. He could take it away, but it serves no reason purpose. Who would tend the field, pay workers, manage the farm etc. Ulfric isn't his men.

It matters because the racism apparently matters and everything I point out shows the Stormcloaks have no inherent racism from any place of authority. Boohoo, some Soldiers from a predominantly nationalistic society said a few mean things, they are all evil nazis!!1!1!

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c - White mans guilt.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tragic_Accident!_Baenlin_Dead! - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mach-Na - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro - Racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Glistel - Racism.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malintus_Ancrus - Racism.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bd71e - Racism.

They don't want a mansion. It just needs some improvements made to the district, it is slum. Wasn't always that way, but something being ignored will fester into a problem with the passage of time.

It doesn't need any improvements AT ALL, what it needs is owners who have self respect and the ability to put their own arrogance to one side and pick up a fluffing sweeping brush. Why are you not up in arms about the damage to non Gray-quarter homes?
Besides, Morrowind was an Imperial province, why is it down to Skyrim and not Cyrodill to sort out the mess?

Because Ulfric is Jarl, that is what happens when you become Jarl. You have something called responsibility. It all belongs to him. I'm not sure how things work in your country, but generally a landlord is responsible for repairs. You say the Dunmer should be the ones to do it, but making improvements to a city is very different to making an improvement to a homestead located somewhere in the Hold.

It's not his responsibility to maintain homes and businesses. Why should his resources go towards fixing private property?

If the Dunmer owned some cottage out in some area of Eastmarch I'd agree. However, this is a city district owned by the Jarl.

Owning a business, means you still have to run said business and pay your tax. The Stormcloaks are an army, how exactly do they have higher standing? Because they run stores? That is how they choose to make money. Or is it because the Stormcloak soldiers aren't breaking the stores?

Higher standing by having the monopoly on business in the eastern holds lmao. Rather stupid if you think this is insignificant. Would you view Jews as owning all the businesses in Germany during WW2 as normal? No, so why is it in this case..

Opening a store doesn't mean you have higher standing

Yes, it does mean that.. Why would Ulfric give the monopoly on general goods to Elves? Makes zero sense. Why would supposed racists buy from Elves? Makes zero sense.

What guards say doesn't mean much, unless it is Imperial/Stormcloak specific.

Check the Windhelm guard faction, they are Stormcloaks.

A self ran business owner states this, he even states that others work for Nords too. There are quite a few Dunmer who work for Nords, and how they make money doesn't relate much. I don't even remember what we're arguing here, the Dunmer all work and while some may earn more than others, they're still treated the same.

The one who works for the Nords can afford to eat, the other belittles him for working for Nords, that's where the reply comes from that "At least I can afford to eat", it implies some would rather go hungry than work for a smelly Nord.
Besides, that's the same self run business owner you keep demanding Ulfric maintains his business. The hell?

Banning a God =/= silent worship. Two very different things, and there is a rebellion for many reasons. Going by the dialogue, Ulfric didn't have much open support until he killed Torygg.

No, in this context they are not two different things at all. Him killing the boy-king and being branded a murderer for it is what gave him the most support, this is because in the eyes of basically everybody, it was a fair and legal action (This is how he managed to "escape" the capital of Skyrim after "murdering" the King).

It is meant to be a view shared by many Stormcloaks, not a Stormcloak only dialogue.
Hence why you have so many NPCs putting these views in close association with the Stormcloaks.

It's a view shared by many Nords, not just Stormcloaks. But it's only a bad thing if a Stormcloak says it.

The conversation is about Ulfric, and the Stormcloaks. Your own side doesn't factor in to it.

"Yes. Anyone who's not a Nord is a trespasser."
"Is that so? You ought to join the Stormcloaks, if you haven't already. Seems to me they're a bunch of narrow-minded bigots, just like you. Meantime, you best steer clear of me."
"No. Skyrim's big enough for everyone."
"Good. Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words. He's tough, loyal to his men and a good leader, but if you're not a Nord, Ulfric will never trust you."

Yes it does, I think Skyrim's big enough for everyone and I'm a Stormcloak. You said yourself the player responses should be taken the most serious. Why not in this context?

Argonians weren't banned from Solitude. Are you suggesting that because the headsman says that Jaree-Ra would never have entered Solitude while Torygg was alive = all Argonians? The man is a criminal strolling around in broad daylight, and is suspected to be up to no good by the Captain of the Guard.

Unless you think the guards have supernatural foresight, then they have absolutely no idea he's a criminal else he'd be sharing the headsman block with Rogviir.
"Ain't got one. But I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."
Nothing to even remotely suggest they have any idea he's a criminal.

If Argonians were banned during Torygg's rule... How has Gulim-Ei been in Solitude for many years? Torygg died a few months ago.

If Stormcloaks hate /ArgonianDunmer then how do they own businesses, property and the like in Stormcloak holds? Your reply is my reply for this question, seeing as it's the same scenario.

Skyrim has rebelled several times in the past, Imperial authority isn't all that high in the land, especially in the east. To the Stormcloaks, the Empire is unfit to rule in their eyes. Doesn't mean it couldn't still crush them, depends more on politics. People in Cyrodiil probably wouldn't care to waste resources, unless you caused the nobility to turn against you. You have to remember that not everyone in the Empire views that they should be in other provinces, in fact there were those who argued they should leave those provinces.

The Empire is hardly welcomed anywhere, it was a might makes right Empire that served the interested of merchants and not much else.

Alvur Relds: Well, sir, of course, having served with the legions for twenty years, and having carried the Emperor’s standard, I’d like to say he was universally loved and respected. But we aren’t much in furriner-loving line like you Westers, and we don’t thank you for interfering.

.

I’ve gotten to know some catmen and even lizards in the Service, and some of them are not bad folk. But a people should keep to their own, if you take my meaning. And that’s not the Empire’s way. I look around, I don’t see much benefit from uniting the provinces, unless you’re a fatcat merchant, or maybe a soldier.

Also - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces

Yes, and at the time they had wanted posters for him. It was a minor uprising that got worse once the dragons returned, nothing to unleash your military might over at the time. It also has a lot to do with military ability, if you get ambushed in your own damn capital Hold.

So by your logic those who are outsmarted by greater minds are simply stupid? lol..

They have some forces getting ready to march into Skyrim, once Pale Pass is cleared. They're currently blocked, and Titus is refusing to pull a lot off the border. Unless Ulfric is blamed for Titus II's death, then it would be different. The Emperor is the one denying Tullius the large reinforcements he wants.[/quite]
Bollocks, they have access to the largest port In Skyrim.. Does the Empire not have any ships or something?

Choosing not to waste a large portion of your military in an area that is as far from the main threat as you can get, doesn't mean they don't have the resources to fight the Great War. It just shows they have their damn priorities straight, unlike certain people.

They're wasting a large portion of their military by the very actions they take regarding Skyrim. The more and more they continue, the more and more people will sympathise with Ulfric. I mean come on, you only need to listen to most of the important people in Solitude to realise the Empire is taking the absolute piss out of them lmao. Using supplies, taking guards from Solitude, refusing meetings with Elisif etc etc Skyrim is simply a supply depot the Empire can't afford to lose, so instead of "the greater good" the Empire bangs on about every second, they continue trying to rule a province where half the people don't want you, and the other half simply have nothing but contempt for you and your tactics.


He didn't declare war against the Western holds as is proven by the quests lol, they just weren't on his side..
The uprising wasn't violence which is proven by the events of the duel its self. Ulfric walked in, challenged him, killed him, walked out. Nobody stopped him because what took place was 100% legal and was accepted by the HIGH KING OF SKYRIM. Then in comes Imperial delegates demanding an answer as to why their puppet king was killed, cue the execution of Rogviir.
High King Torygg ruled Skyrim. It was part of the Empire, but it was under his rule. He accepted the duel with Ulfric, and thereby negated any law regarding the murder of either combatant.

Sure, it was an ancient custom, but the ruling party not only acknowledged it, but accepted it as well. That makes it law. Roggvir should not have been executed as he was not guilty of any crime. His execution was simply a way for the Empire to exert dominance over Skyrim (with help from the Jarl of Solitude) and "restore order". Please, enlighten me as to what should have taken place if Torygg managed to kill Ulfric, would Tullius have beheaded Torygg for breaking the law and murdering a Jarl? No, of course not.
"Skyrim will lead Tamriel in the fight against the Elves" - Ulfric.
Funny how the "greater good" (Imperial words) always ends up with the Empire somehow benefiting in one way or another.

"I found many of these mountain villages almost empty of young men, who have been seduced into joining Septim's army by promises of wealth and glory"

Personally, I think many were been conscripted or lured by falsehood, much of Tiber was propaganda.

No they weren't. They were convinced primarily because of who and what he was.. The Greybeards named him Dragon of the North and King of the Nord. Ysmir, A GOD THEY WORSHIP. To suggest otherwise is naive.

It wasn't one province, Skyrim controlled High Rock, Morrowind and parts of Cyrodiil for a time.

They occupied that land, it's much different than integrating it as Tiber Septim did.

The Nords conquered using Nords and the Empire ended with the internal struggle of the Nords. The Empire of Cyrodill was better in the sense it was multicultural and integrated the lands they conquered, not just conquering them to rule themselves.

You have a lot of things to put back into order, twenty six years isn't really a super long time in the grand scheme. From all the dialogue with Thalmor and the Imperial Legion, the Empire and Dominion are on the brink of war. Both sides are gathering.

Great example for Imperial incompetence. Starting a Civil War(Yes they did start it) with a province that provides much of your manpower moments before starting another war.

What facts? That what an Empire in our world did, somehow translates into what the Empire in Tamriel can do? That isn't facts, and all you're saying is "They repopulated their army". The Imperial Army isn't under populated.

No, it's using common sense by comparing the rate at which human's grow/give birth to the rate at which the Empire has "recovered" by using an analogy that compares closely to the situation in-game.

Rebuilding an entire province, recovering from such a huge loss of life and a lot of outbreaks of violence takes more than five years. Your entire point here has no baring on this debate. Both the Dominion and Empire are on the brink of war, them taking twenty six years really isn't much when looking at everything that happened.

Outbreaks that were caused by incompetence, stop acting like it wasn't avoidable.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cicero's_Journal

No, you're going off the player character and a generalization.

It's not the PC when it applies to each and every NPC. I could understand if only the player had a resistance to cold, or a magicka boost, but that is simply not the case.

Yet, large numbers of Dunmer were once found in the coldest region in Skyrim. The Altmer stable owner in Windhelm loves the cold.

Has absolutely zero bearing on the stone cold fact in the lore than Nords resist cold better than other races. There's a reason the Nedes migrated south from Skyrim to Cyrodill, because they couldn't handle it, being from Atmora when Atmora was green and warm.

One of the greatest Mages in Tamriel was a Nord. A High Elf Mage is better, because he practices and studies. They may be a more magically gifted race, where you'd find more of them able to learn magic.

And apart from him, the better ones and the current best are Elven, namely Altmer.

"Bosmer have a reputation as peerless archers. It's hard to practice as an archer with that lingering over you, because there'll always be someone heckling about it. "Hey you're a Bosmer, shouldn't you already be a master?" It's foolish." - Hurthinnor

You don't naturally have this ability.

They are naturally better at it than an Altmer or an Argonian.

Depends entirely on lifestyle, just like any person. In fact the Orcs had a hard time when they were escorted by the 7th & 15th Legions to safety.

No it doesn't, it's a fact of the series. "Orcs in heavy armor make up some of the finest warriors in the Legion" Bethesda is canon, what they write is canon, not what you decide is canon, C0DA.

Actually a very diverse race, producing great heavy infantry, wizards, even farmers. No one is better than anything, just like any skill you must learn and practice. They're not all Dragonborn who absorb decades of knowledge by smacking a dragon.

Doesn't matter what else they produce, they produce the BEST spell swords because of what they are and what they naturally excel in. Why are you just completely ignoring what is set in stone when it comes to the races of Tamriel ?

It's using racial generalization, and gameplay mechanics as fact of life in the world of Tamriel. Gameplay aside, we're talking about the people living in it who are as diverse as you see. A Nord isn't born a warrior, they need training like everyone else. Same as a Bosmer with a bow.

They aren't game play mechanics ffs. Their descriptions are inscribed in the bloody lore. Nords resist cold, Dunmer resist fire, Dunmer are better spellswords, Bosmer are the best archers, Nords are hardy warriors, Altmer are naturally magical...

The reason you have these racial generalization is based on either great figures, or historical events/legends. Like Imperials being great light infantry, because in the First Era Colovians only could produce leather armor in large volumes.

No, they're there because they're part of what makes up Nirn.

You're trained to fight in all areas, the only changes are to equipment. Nords have fought and won in Hammerfell in their history. You find the races all across Tamriel. A Nord who has lived in Anvil all his life, never having been to Skyrim is hardly going to be an expert in frozen wasteland combat.

Doesn't matter what you're trained for, each race has bonuses and drawbacks that make them suited to specific scenarios. I'm sure they equip Altmer in heavy armour and shields then tell them to fight on the front line in Skyrim. The same reason they wouldn't use a Khajit legion in Skyrim or Black Marsh. It's common sense, nothing more and nothing less.

There are Redguards Legionaries in Skyrim. While I may not be an expert on the military, I can see that the Imperial Legion is very diverse. You can't exactly devote your tactics to a generalization. Your standard fella in Tamriel isn't the best, and your average soldier isn't going to be amazing.

Volunteers. I know the legion is diverse, you're just claiming it's diverse for the very sake of it and that each race doesn't offer something unique to the Legion.

I doubt a Legate is a conscript. You also have that farmer, and Skyrim has been home to dark elves for centuries. Winterhold used to be full of them, until they were driven off. You also have an Altmer Legate, and a Breton Legate.

Legates aren't front line soldiers.

"The Dark Elves live in a run-down slum called the Gray Quarter. Ulfric's content to keep it that way. I guess they think I can open Ulfric's eyes to their plight, and get him to lift a finger on their behalf. I'm trying, but Ulfric is set in his ways. For him, there's two kinds of people in this world -- Nords, and the folk beneath them."

"You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."

"Windhelm is divided into four quarters. The Gray Quarter is the one that's home to all the city's Dark Elves. If it looks to you like an impoverished slum, that's because it is. Ulfric prefers that we live in squalor. He has nothing but disdain for anyone who isn't a Nord. He tolerates us, but that's the extent of his hospitality."

"Well you see where we have to live. This forgotten alley. All the filth from the upper quarters flows downhill, like they say. Good luck getting one of the guards to help with anything. I tried to get Ulfric to even come down here to see the squalor, but the High Lord of His Mightiness couldn't find the time."

You're quoting a man who claims anybody who hates the Dunmer are narrow minded bigots whilst at the same time he's trying to get in the pants of that exact type of person. He's a con artist using your feelings to become Jarl.
It was built to house Nords prior to the arrival of refugees, unless of course you think it was built FOR the refugees, which kind of goes against everything you claim about Windhelm and the old holds.

It isn't smart ruling to allow unrest in a third of your city, a previous Jarl of Windhelm had a revolt and it ended badly for him. All the Dunmer ask is that Ulfric acknowledges the problem, they're not expecting sudden change.

It isn't a third of the city and there's no problem to acknowledge, they live no worse than anybody else.

How are they a severe underdog, if you were claiming the Empire is weak, and doesn't have resources for a war? Ulfric should be winning against Tullius if they're so under populated.

Whiterun, Solitude, Riften, Markarth, Chorrol, Anvil, Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel, Raven Rock, Cheydinhal, Imperial City, Skingrad. List can continue.

Windhelm is known for not being friendly.

"It's an old city, I can tell you that. The Palace of the Kings is ancient. It's not the friendliest place for outsiders. The Dark Elves were all forced to live in a slum called the Grey Quarter. The Argonians can't even live inside the walls. They're all stuck out on the docks. Still, Candlehearth Hall's got decent food and cheap bunks. You could do worse." - Alfarinn

No it isn't known for not being friendly. It's the hold that took in the majority of refugee's.

No, I think they're pretty much even spread at the moment. First Era, yeah. Three Eras later? Getting attacked by Nords is normal.

Yes they have. It goes back to the situation with the heart and Lorkhan. Don't expect to be held in the highest regard when your ancestors locked away the heart of your God.

It isn't a book? What book are you talking about? It was a Q&A with the creators. Orcs weren't listed as a beast race, they have the same lifespan as the beast races.

Yes they were.

The Rift is considered the best location for farming in general. Quite fertile lands, and a good climate. (At least the Imperial Legion views it that way). Whiterun is another okay location, Rorikstead is considered the best farming village in the province.

The Reach would be good for mining, from all the mountains. Though it has a Forsworn problem, which it has had for Eras.

Which goes against past lore which told us the opposite of what you've just said.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That was maybe two ERA'S ago, not two hundred years ago.

You still find pockets of slavers, it is a trade still ongoing in Elsweyr.

So why is it down to Ulfric to maintain his store if he has the money to save for his inevitable return to Morrowind? The district is fine, it has no problems WHATSOEVER that aren't prevalent in other areas of the city. This is simply a result of some Dunmer having to leave their privileged lives and not willing to adapt to the way things are in Skyrim, the ones who have accepted the truth are thriving.

They're talking about the district, and maintaining the buildings is down to Ulfric, it is his city. They're citizens living under his rule, inside his own city. Outside in the Hold it is a different story, there he and Thanes/nobles own the lands. Actual buildings inside his own city however, are under him.

The ones who have "accepted" are still in the same situation as those you claim haven't.

Nothing to do with a bloody nose, he just knew it was a cowardly and damned dishonourable to remove an entire provinces only means of defending themselves.

No, now you're making a baseless assumption. The reaon given as to why he discharged "invalids" was not willing to abandon the war in Hammerfell.

Hammerfell itself had two of their own military forces, and a third force of desert warriors.

Precisely, it was tactically the best move to protect Cyrodill whilst ignoring the needs of his provinces

Were Cyrodiil to fall completely, the Empire would collapse.

and after he protected Cyrodill the peace treaty further screwed Hammerfell by demanding they hand over territory.

Terriortory that the Dominion was in control of at the time. Generally when you accept peace terms, you maintain control of land you currently control. The Aldmeri Dominion were entrenched within those regions for five years already.

So, the Emperor removes the legions for "the greater good" (lol, funny how the greater good always benefits Cyrodill heh)

Benefits the Imperial City, as is the norm. Doesn't always benefit Cyrodiil as history has shown various problems between the Empire and counties of Cyrodiil.

to defend Cyrodill leaving Hammerfell to their own then after he successfully recaptured Cyrodill, the abandoning of Hammerfell is made even worse by the giving up of her territory in the peace treaty.

He recaptured the Imperial City, Cyrodiil itself still had problems for the next twenty years as Imperial forces slowly regained control. The territory given to the Dominion was what they controlled already.

It's insanely illogical to assume anyone would be fine with such events. If that was the case, I see no reason why Hammerfell would continue as an independent nation.

No one would be fine with it, however, given the situation of the Imperial Army and the status of Cyrodiil it would be highly risky to continue the war without draining Skyrim and High Rock completely to support the war effort. You have to understand that High Rock and Skyrim did not care for Hammerfell's situation, but their own. Hell, they were fine with the Talos ban for a good number of years until recently with Thalmor activity. Asking them to fund a continued campaign with Cyrodiil out of the picture would result in chaos in their lands.

No she doesn't, she blames the Empire for her husband dying in the war. I remember it 100% as when I made the comment I was doing the quest and reading her journal lol. She also states the Stormcloaks are fools for not using her power to defeat the Empire. Ending with something along the lines of "No matter, they will all die".

Twenty-five years I have grieved for my husband, and sought revenge against the Empire for his death. I have researched the magicks to return his spirit to a body and something about the story of Fjori and Holgeir has drawn me here...
I have managed to raise the dead here and use them as laborers to clear the way to the main burial hall. Something about the methods used by the ancient Nords has kept them incredibly well preserved. Would that these Stormcloaks had half their sense. We could have used them to push the elves right off the continent and formed a new state to combat the empire. And now, when I am so close, a war breaks out. The sleeping bear of Skyrim, who would not come to aid us in Hammerfell, awakens now that the Empire has abandoned them as well. They think they know suffering at the hands of the Empire? They know nothing. I would see both the Empire and these sons of Skyrim [sic]into Oblivion myself.

She also shows her true motives.

"They burned his body before I could raise him... it should have been returned to me... You will not stop me from killing those who wage this pointless war!"

There is no point in using her, she's absolutely crazy. People die in war, her anger should be directed at the Dominion. Instead because she could not raise him from he dead, she wants to kill both the Stormcloaks and the Empire.

That would only matter if the racist side of the Stormcloaks was set in stone in their policy's.

Not really, the Dark Elves were largely driven out of Winterhold without any policy. It depends on how the Nords feel.

Yes there is... All the guards, the tavern owner, the Smith's, Captain Lonely-Gale is an admirer and supporter of Ulfric.. His men come from Eastern holds which mean you NEED to apply what happens in Eastern holds to anything you judge the Stormcloaks by.

His guards are quite low in number from dialogue, Captain Lonely-Gale was a merchant so obviously would have dealings with other races. Supporting Ulfric doesn't mean you need to agree with everything.

Not everyone feels that way, but a good number of them do. In Windhelm a large number of the discrimination is more directed towards Dunmer and Argonians. Doesn't mean it has to translate over to Altmer. They're not the focus, and there aren't as many of them.

You can be "Skyrim for the Nords", and not murder, burn and loot.. You will get those who aren't friendly with outsiders, it doesn't mean it has to be full on pitchforks and torches.

You keep looking for an extreme, or want it to be individual case by case.

Okay, we go case by case... A large number of individuals in the Stormcloaks don't like other races, and therefor it is a view many associate with the Stormcloaks. From the Stormcloak supporters themselves, to non-Stormcloak supporters.

We're arguing in a circle here, about the same thing with different wording. The Stormcloaks on the whole are considered this way by non-Stormcloaks due to the general additude of the Stormcloaks.

Explain to me, why do so many other races feel the Stormcloaks are against them and associate predjudice with them?

Why does the question effect the answer lmao? She reacts like that after a simple question, it shows she has some serious inner frustrations and anger towards the Stormcloaks. I'll continue it in the question below, no point repeating myself.

Because you're asking her if she thinks about returning to Cyrodiil due to her race. Given the view those associate with the Stormcloaks, it seems rather normal. Skyrim is her home. Many are angry towards both sides of the war with good reason.

Doesn't matter if you want to narrow it down to Windhelm, the same can be applied to all Eastern holds.

You really don't want me to apply the rest of Ulfric's idiots. Otherwise we can imply that the Stormcloaks are:

A) Anti-Magic.
B) Intolerant of non-Nords.
C) Easily fooled, decieved and out maneuvered.
D) Simple minded.
E) Unable to manage their Holds.

I also explained why, she's loyal to the Empire & she hates Stormcloaks.. Must be an idiot to buy a tonic from someone who shows outright disdain for you and your cause and is loyal to the enemy..

Yes, disdain born from a view that is encouraged by the Stormcloaks.

It matters because the racism apparently matters and everything I point out shows the Stormcloaks have no inherent racism from any place of authority. Boohoo, some Soldiers from a predominantly nationalistic society said a few mean things, they are all evil nazis!!1!1!

What do nazis have to do with this? Racism matters to those it affects. I know the Stormcloaks are not all about it, but there are those who view it as such and it is supported. Doesn't discredit their views or opinions as to who to support. Empire isn't pretty, you get ugliness on both sides.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c - White mans guilt.

I think you mean burden, and that actually makes no sense given the context. Tullius isn't talking about race, but the Legion. Why is the Legion in Skyrim "To keep order", they do that every where in the Empire including Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is a province also, and it to would fall into lawlessness/barbarism without the Legion.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel - Racism.

Getting better. Yes, some racism.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tragic_Accident!_Baenlin_Dead! - Racism.

A High Rock Guild that builds properties is mocking local craftmanship to try get business. Not exactly a comparison between how the Stormcloaks are viewed.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mach-Na - Racism.

That isn't racism, that is the intolerance of religion my good man. I'm an atheist, when a Catholic hates on me I don't view it as racism. I could be mistaken in how people view things in this day and age, but I don't see racism in that part.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius - Racism.

"I'm here to show Bruma's errant Nords the path to the true faith. They must put aside their heathen gods and worship the Nine."

Not race, but religious views. I bet he'd love the Nords now.,

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman - Racism.

Realy? Another religious case. Do you even know what racism is?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen - Racism.

Racism? Did you actually read any of these or are you just throwing random links at me? Chapel going Imperials and Chapel avoiding Dunmer dodging each other.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro - Racism.

Finally, back on track. I absolutely agree, disgusting woman. Notice I don't defend her, I don't need to support the Empire and like everyone in it.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Glistel - Racism.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malintus_Ancrus - Racism.

Now we're back to square one. How the hell is this racism, it has nothing to even do with race. Not even once is race even mentioned in the slightest, how do you even draw that conclusion?

People comment about the fact how she seems like a nice girl, and he's considered a thug. That is like calling every parent who didn't like a daughter's boyfriend a racist.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bd71e - Racism.

He dislikes a criminal, so it is racist? Or do you mean "Filthy Argonian"? That isn't even slightly racist by Tamriel standards, no calling lizard or scaleback whatever they call argonians in Windhelm.

Even if we consider it racist, it hardly does anything for your argument.

It doesn't need any improvements AT ALL, what it needs is owners who have self respect and the ability to put their own arrogance to one side and pick up a fluffing sweeping brush. Why are you not up in arms about the damage to non Gray-quarter homes?

They do sweep, I've seen them. The quarter does need improvements, the whole section is run down and needs looking at.

Look at the difference between houses outside the Gray-Quarter. They're built better, even the roof of these other houses are better. You have slight damage on various locations, but the district doesn't need any changes. The gray-quarter needs improvements.

Besides, Morrowind was an Imperial province, why is it down to Skyrim and not Cyrodill to sort out the mess?

Cyrodiil would have their share of refugees. The reason it is down to Skyrim is I don't know... They live there? If they lived in a city in Cyrodiil, I would be arguing the exact same against their Count. They live under Ulfric, he is now the Jarl, it comes with the job.

It's not his responsibility to maintain homes and businesses. Why should his resources go towards fixing private property?

Private property? It is his city, his land, his property. He is their landlord so to speak, they pay him. His resources should go to maintaining the city, because that is what his court does.

It is the responsibility of the ruler, otherwise their city doesn't remain a city but a ruin. Your common citizenry cannot afford, nor are even skilled to maintain entire districts. This isn't some far out village where it is easier and cheaper, where folks help their neighbor.

It would take planning, work contracts and the Jarl/stewards approval to make alterations to the city. Go rent under a landlord and start making large scale alterations to the building.

Higher standing by having the monopoly on business in the eastern holds lmao. Rather stupid if you think this is insignificant. Would you view Jews as owning all the businesses in Germany during WW2 as normal? No, so why is it in this case..

Not really a monopoly, if they ran the East Empire Company, sure. Owning a shop in a city that would have hundreds if not maybe a thousand shops? You can open a store, it doesn't mean you have a higher standing. Being a merchant isn't easy, and it all depends if the business does well or not.

Are you comparing the Stormcloaks to Nazis?

Yes, it does mean that.. Why would Ulfric give the monopoly on general goods to Elves? Makes zero sense. Why would supposed racists buy from Elves? Makes zero sense.

The monopoly on general goods... Ulfric gave nothing, they went into it themselves. I highly doubt there is only one general trader in Windhelm in lore, it is a port and headquarters of the East Empire Company in Skyrim.

Who says they buy from elves? There is a market, and the other stores are directed at adventurers and travelers. Not the locals. Your local citizen would go to the produce stall, or the inn. They're not forking out money for an enchated amulet or some trinket.

Given Jorleif's dialogue, anything out of the gray-quarter is considered poor quality. Yet they've taken the monoply, Windhelm city of poor quality. Yeah okay, I'll accept that.

Check the Windhelm guard faction, they are Stormcloaks.

... I'm talking about Stormcloak/Imperial specific dialogue. Guard dialogue is the exact same on both sides. Using generic guard dialogue doesn't make sense when others use the exact line word for word.

There is guard dialogue, then there is faction specific.

If you want to use it for the Stormcloaks, then we can use the rest and say the Stormcloak Guards of Windhelm are secretly Imperials!

"The cousin of the Emperor was murdered! In Solitude, at her own damn wedding. Not a chance we would have let that happen here."

"The Emperor of Skyrim. Dead. These are dark times my friend - dark times indeed..."

The one who works for the Nords can afford to eat, the other belittles him for working for Nords, that's where the reply comes from that "At least I can afford to eat", it implies some would rather go hungry than work for a smelly Nord.
Besides, that's the same self run business owner you keep demanding Ulfric maintains his business. The hell?

You just said he has a higher standing and they own a monoply, yet he can't afford to eat? No that isn't the same self run business owner, you're confusing elves now. The one who belittles them runs a stall in the market district.

You're mixing up arguments here, so... The hell?

No, in this context they are not two different things at all. Him killing the boy-king and being branded a murderer for it is what gave him the most support, this is because in the eyes of basically everybody, it was a fair and legal action (This is how he managed to "escape" the capital of Skyrim after "murdering" the King).

Yes they are. There are Nords who worship quietly, it isn't dishonorable. You stated it was considered dishonorable to worship quietly. That isn't true at all, now you're on about the ban. That is completely different and it isn't the same context.

It's a view shared by many Nords, not just Stormcloaks. But it's only a bad thing if a Stormcloak says it.

No one is saying that. Just the other guys saying it aren't trying to rule the province?

Yes it does, I think Skyrim's big enough for everyone and I'm a Stormcloak. You said yourself the player responses should be taken the most serious. Why not in this context?

Because the faction doesn't relate to your choice. That is your character's view about "Skyrim for the Nords" which is related to the Stormcloaks via the response from Brunwulf not you. Your character considers "Skyrim for the Nords" a racist, anti-outsider view.

Your own personal choice does not matter beyond that dialogue. The dialogue is the same if you're Imperial, Stormcloak, Dark Brotherhood, Mage, Thief etc. It is the meaning for "Skyrim for the Nords".

This part of the debate is over, it was in relation to your statement "Going back to the "For the Nords" thing, I don't really think that means screw everybody else but rather screw the Elves and screw the Empire for treating Skyrim like a play thing."

Unless you think the guards have supernatural foresight, then they have absolutely no idea he's a criminal else he'd be sharing the headsman block with Rogviir.
"Ain't got one. But I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."
Nothing to even remotely suggest they have any idea he's a criminal.

They're not stupid, they have an idea and a suspicion but they can't prove it.

"Captain Aldis can't prove it, but that Argonian is up to no good."

Not having evidence =/= not having an idea.

If Stormcloaks hate /ArgonianDunmer then how do they own businesses, property and the like in Stormcloak holds? Your reply is my reply for this question, seeing as it's the same scenario.

Yes, completely same scenario. "I don't like you" vs "Your race is banned from the city".

"If Stormcloaks hate/ArgonianDunmer then how do they own businesses, property and the like in Stormcloak holds"

1) Property is controlled by the Jarl.
2) Anyone can start a business.
3) Not everyone is a Stormcloak, even in the East.

How well your business does depends on your customers, you could own a shop in Windhelm and get by without Stormcloaks buying from you, because other locals will. A Third of the city in Windhelm are dark elves, a dark elf store will have business from them.

The war affects each business differently, depending on location etc.

The Empire is hardly welcomed anywhere, it was a might makes right Empire that served the interested of merchants and not much else.

It is welcomed in quite a few areas. While the Empire did great for merchants, it also provided stability. How it maintained stability morally is another debate in itself, but the result was the same.

Also - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces

A good read, but that relates to the control of Morrowind and Black Marsh. Both of which were argued as in that book, not worth the expense as say Skyrim or High Rock which provided prosperity.

Morrowind was a plops hole that was good for ebony, study of dwemer and protection against an Akaviri invasion. Black Marsh came with it and was mostly used as a prison of the worst in the Empire.

Skyrim is a lot more valuable than Morrowind in terms of economical gain, and security.

So by your logic those who are outsmarted by greater minds are simply stupid? lol..

No, I never said that. However, Tullius managed to get a large enough force unnoticed through Eastmarch and capture the leader of the rebellion. That is a bit more than outsmart, the military ability needed to do such a thing, while the Thalmor were running interference and avoiding Ulfric's patrols is quite a feat.

Bollocks, they have access to the largest port In Skyrim.. Does the Empire not have any ships or something?

They have ships, but you'd need to take a lot away from the real threat. How many ships do you think would be needed to transport a Legion or two? You also have weather to consider, and the sea around Skyrim is dangerous in the best of times. Ain't the Sea of Ghosts for nothing.

They're wasting a large portion of their military by the very actions they take regarding Skyrim. The more and more they continue, the more and more people will sympathise with Ulfric.

The more it continues, the more people hate both sides. Both the Legion and Stormcloaks are consuming the resources and manpower of Skyrim.

I mean come on, you only need to listen to most of the important people in Solitude to realise the Empire is taking the absolute piss out of them lmao.

Fighting a war, you hear the dialogue about struggles due to the war in many of the Holds. On both sides.

Using supplies, taking guards from Solitude, refusing meetings with Elisif etc etc

Both eat up supplies, it is hardly surprising. Guards are taken from all Holds.

Skyrim is simply a supply depot the Empire can't afford to lose, so instead of "the greater good" the Empire bangs on about every second, they continue trying to rule a province where half the people don't want you, and the other half simply have nothing but contempt for you and your tactics.

Actually, the Court is quite pro-Imperial. While they may not like having to pay the price of the war, it is the same all across Skyrim. Both sides have their grumble about the resources it is taking to fight.

He didn't declare war against the Western holds as is proven by the quests lol, they just weren't on his side..
The uprising wasn't violence which is proven by the events of the duel its self. Ulfric walked in, challenged him, killed him, walked out. Nobody stopped him because what took place was 100% legal and was accepted by the HIGH KING OF SKYRIM. Then in comes Imperial delegates demanding an answer as to why their puppet king was killed, cue the execution of Rogviir.

Imperial delegates? Source.

"Roggvir. He opened a gate and they executed him for it. He opened a gate and the wrong man rode out of it. If that man hadn't been Ulfric Stormcloak. If Ulfric hadn't killed High King Torygg... But it was Ulfric. And he did kill the High King, in honorable combat. My brother refused to allow the the [sic] Imperials to take revenge for the deed. So now he's dead."

"Roggvir. You helped Ulfric Stormcloak escape this city after he murdered High King Torygg. By opening that gate for Ulfric you betrayed the people of Solitude."

Odd seems to suggest like they were going after him.

High King Torygg ruled Skyrim. It was part of the Empire, but it was under his rule. He accepted the duel with Ulfric, and thereby negated any law regarding the murder of either combatant.

Law doesn't work like that in the Empire.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - High Treason, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics

Sure, it was an ancient custom, but the ruling party not only acknowledged it, but accepted it as well. That makes it law.

No it doesn't. Tradition =/= Law.

Please, enlighten me as to what should have taken place if Torygg managed to kill Ulfric, would Tullius have beheaded Torygg for breaking the law and murdering a Jarl? No, of course not.

If Ulfric represented the Emperor, absolutely. High Treason is death regardless of rank, even an Elder Council member was given summary execution.

Though no, Torygg would not die for killing Ulfric. At least I don't believe so, it would depend on what the aftermath was. The Empire doesn't like it when rulers infight.

Funny how the "greater good" (Imperial words) always ends up with the Empire somehow benefiting in one way or another.

I don't think I have ever seen the Imperials use "Greater good" I do hear them say "For the Empire".

Yes, it is funny how an organization seeks to benefit itself. Like how a country or corporation does things to benefit themselves. Like how you as a person does stuff to your benefit majority of the time (I assume).

No they weren't. They were convinced primarily because of who and what he was.. The Greybeards named him Dragon of the North and King of the Nord. Ysmir, A GOD THEY WORSHIP. To suggest otherwise is naive.

Yet they fought against him, well after being named such. You do know that no one outside the Greybeards know what the Greybeards talk about right? Tiber took that title when he crowned himself Emperor. Ysmir is not King of the Nord, it is a Nord word for King. High King is King of the Nords, Ysmir is a grand title and it was a smart move to take it. But it doesn't mean the Nords suddenly bowed down and followed for no reason.

You say they were convinced because of Ysmir, yet you're not really showing me much besides your own assumption.

1) Nords fought against Tiber, and surrendered.
2) Many Nords were seduced by promises of wealth and glory.
3) Where is your source.

They occupied that land, it's much different than integrating it as Tiber Septim did.

Morrowind was held as a Military dictatorship for decades, even hundreds of years after his death Morrowind wasn't completely an Imperial province.

The Nords conquered using Nords and the Empire ended with the internal struggle of the Nords. The Empire of Cyrodill was better in the sense it was multicultural and integrated the lands they conquered, not just conquering them to rule themselves.

Tiber used fear and his Colovian officers to quell any sort of revolt. His men were quite ruthless, and not this multicultural loving crap you see now.

Great example for Imperial incompetence. Starting a Civil War(Yes they did start it) with a province that provides much of your manpower moments before starting another war.

They didn't start it, Ulfric did. The Holds were skirimishing for years. They reacted to it when Torygg was killed, and the region became unstable.

You're not making sense here, they started with a province? The Empire is not at war with a province.

Stormcloaks =/= Nords/Skyrim.

Outbreaks that were caused by incompetence, stop acting like it wasn't avoidable.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cicero's_Journal

Incompetence? Loss of order in the aftermath of the Great War for many years. What was avoidable? Can you explain your argument here, because from what I see that journal is giving my argument strength... The Empire faced internal problems after the Great War.

Wayrest falls to corsairs. Bravil erupts into violence.

Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it.

It's not the PC when it applies to each and every NPC. I could understand if only the player had a resistance to cold, or a magicka boost, but that is simply not the case.

This is a gameplay mechanic. PC, NPCs, stats etc.

Has absolutely zero bearing on the stone cold fact in the lore than Nords resist cold better than other races. There's a reason the Nedes migrated south from Skyrim to Cyrodill, because they couldn't handle it, being from Atmora when Atmora was green and warm.

"You notice all the Nords around here? It's partly because Nords like ships and sailing. Mostly, we're sick of freezing our asses off in Skyrim."

You have a source for this? Read the novels, read books in-game. Show me how many times these gameplay mechanics come into play.

The living Tamriel in lore, acts very different to game mechanics.

And apart from him, the better ones and the current best are Elven, namely Altmer.

No. The best Conjurer in Skyrim is a Redguard. One of the best Alterationists in Tamriel is currently a Nord. Being great at magic, requires study and dedication.

They are naturally better at it than an Altmer or an Argonian.

Source? You were just contradicted by a Bosmer.

No it doesn't, it's a fact of the series. "Orcs in heavy armor make up some of the finest warriors in the Legion" Bethesda is canon, what they write is canon, not what you decide is canon, C0DA.

Absolutely, in a generalization Orcs do make up some of the best front line troops. Very tough lifestyle and way of life in those mountain kingdoms. They still have to train, and Legion training perfects them into the best fighting soldiers they can be.

The Legion doesn't divide units up on race, on by racial bonus or generalization. Many races would face these generalizations, and looked upon as a stereotype just as in our world.

Doesn't matter what else they produce, they produce the BEST spell swords because of what they are and what they naturally excel in. Why are you just completely ignoring what is set in stone when it comes to the races of Tamriel ?

Show me these Dunmer spell swords. Having a stereotype doesn't mean they're the best, or even all suited for something.

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just pointing out that no one is born naturally good at anything in Tamriel. The only exception is magic, which not everyone is able to use easily.

They aren't game play mechanics ffs. Their descriptions are inscribed in the bloody lore. Nords resist cold, Dunmer resist fire, Dunmer are better spellswords, Bosmer are the best archers, Nords are hardy warriors, Altmer are naturally magical...

Gameplay mechanics, and racial generalization. From a gameplay standpoint, yes, each race has their bonus and suited areas. Why? Because it is a game and makes each race different when creating classes. If you want to argue the game, then sure, you're right. Arguing the living world, is very different. The "stone cold" lore you speak of, changes from game to game.

If you want to narrow it all down to race bonus, gameplay stats etc. Okay, but don't expect the rest of lore to make sense to your limitation. No where in lore does the Legion, or any race do things due to their racial in-game bonus.

No, they're there because they're part of what makes up Nirn.

Then why are Imperials heavy armor bonus? Lore states light infantry... Why are Nords light infantry, lore stated they were heavy armor last game!

Altmer were weak to magic previously, now they're not? Explain this in lore please. Nords have a low intelligence stat, are they simple minded?

I'm sure they equip Altmer in heavy armour and shields then tell them to fight on the front line in Skyrim.

If your unit is sent to Skyrim, yes. You're expected to do whatever the Legion requires of you, if that means going into a swamp or a desert you're going. There isn't this "But, I'm a Nord!" you're a soldier of the Legion that fights all over Tamriel.

They equip you in whatever you're joining, they're not going to put an Altmer in the Shadow Legion if he can't cast a spell now, are they? If you join as a normal soldier, you're trained as that like in any professional military.

The Legion selects candidates on the basis of superior endurance, the soldierly virtue, and trustworthy personality, the citizen's virtue, for service in the Legion is the model for the duties of Imperial citizenship. Troopers are expected to demonstrate mastery of the long blade, the spear, and blunt weapons. Legion troops train with shield and heavy armor, and so must be skilled at blocking and moving in heavy armor. - Ordo Legionis

The same reason they wouldn't use a Khajit legion in Skyrim or Black Marsh. It's common sense, nothing more and nothing less.

Yes, common sense. That is why for Black Marsh they had to redesign their armor for that campaign... But why didn't they instead send the Argonian Legion?!? I know... Because the Legion doesn't work like that.

Hell, Skyrim doesn't make a bit of sense... Redguards, Bretons, Imperials, Altmer, Dunmer Legion soldiers? Damnit Tullius know your lore! What is this "Khajiit" Legion? Does the Empire have nine legions now. One for each race does it?

Volunteers. I know the legion is diverse, you're just claiming it's diverse for the very sake of it and that each race doesn't offer something unique to the Legion.

The Legion is diverse because it draws recruits all over, each race does offer something unique. The race on a whole, not each specific member. Each race that was pulled into the Legion brought their unique ways and methods.

Legates aren't front line soldiers.

Legion Officers get into the thick of it.

Yes they were.

Doesn't matter what class they put them as, it is from 2013.

Which goes against past lore which told us the opposite of what you've just said.

To quote yourself.

"Bethesda is canon, what they write is canon, not what you decide is canon, C0DA."

 

[Uniquename1]

If racism is your concern how do you feel about religious persecution? The only reason the imperials are there is to stop the worship of Talos and they're only doing that because they fear another war with the altmer.

Ulfrics first speech you can over hear between him and his general in the throne room seems like he fights for family home and survival. Moralizing means little when they're coming for you and is only a tool of invaders. Mess with family and friends threaten me personally and there is no mercy. We will say and do anything for revenge or self preservation.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

If racism is your concern how do you feel about religious persecution? The only reason the imperials are there is to stop the worship of Talos and they're only doing that because they fear another war with the altmer.

Ulfrics first speech you can over hear between him and his general in the throne room seems like he fights for family home and survival. Moralizing means little when they're coming for you and is only a tool of invaders. Mess with family and friends threaten me personally and there is no mercy. We will say and do anything for revenge or self preservation.

Religious persecution is fine. No problem at all with it. Persecute them all. Heck, execute them all. For stupidity.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If racism is your concern how do you feel about religious persecution? The only reason the imperials are there is to stop the worship of Talos and they're only doing that because they fear another war with the altmer.

Ulfrics first speech you can over hear between him and his general in the throne room seems like he fights for family home and survival. Moralizing means little when they're coming for you and is only a tool of invaders. Mess with family and friends threaten me personally and there is no mercy. We will say and do anything for revenge or self preservation.

Religious persecution is fine. No problem at all with it. Persecute them all. Heck, execute them all. For stupidity.

There was religious persecution in Skyrim long before the Thalmor, before any Great War and any Stormcloak rebellion. Religious persecution is fine in Skyrim so long as it isn't your own God.

 

[Yingvar war wolf]

We are exactly opposite I fell bad killing stormcloaks I feel like a monster . I feel like ulfrics a hero... My khajiit is staying out of the war for now but later will side prob for imperials.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

We are exactly opposite I fell bad killing stormcloaks I feel like a monster . I feel like ulfrics a hero... My khajiit is staying out of the war for now but later will side prob for imperials.

Well then you're stupid.

 

[Yingvar war wolf]

We are exactly opposite I fell bad killing stormcloaks I feel like a monster . I feel like ulfrics a hero... My khajiit is staying out of the war for now but later will side prob for imperials.

Well then you're stupid.

EHHHHHHGGGG MY FEELZ

 

[AngelOfMetal]

Hmph. Another milk-drinker crying about his effort.

Joke's aside, I didn't know you could betray a faction by handing the Crown to the opposition. Sounds like something my current character would do without second thought.

As for stormcloack racism... its more about distrust. Apperantly, if dunmers did something to aid the war, they would gain more priviledges and would be treated kindly. Nords offer kindness as return for favor. That is not full racism, its about 30-40% racism.

Well said! !!

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Hmph. Another milk-drinker crying about his effort.

Joke's aside, I didn't know you could betray a faction by handing the Crown to the opposition. Sounds like something my current character would do without second thought.

As for stormcloack racism... its more about distrust. Apperantly, if dunmers did something to aid the war, they would gain more priviledges and would be treated kindly. Nords offer kindness as return for favor. That is not full racism, its about 30-40% racism.

Well said! !!

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Re @Papoy's answer. Why would the Dunmer help the war effort? They couldn't care less. Hey... my PC couldn't care less. If there was an option I'd just ignore it. And he is wrong. The Dunmer could win the war for the Stormcloaks and they would still be discriminated against. The Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist thugs against anyone who isn't a Nord. "Skyrim is for the Nords" is even their lovely catch phrase. They pretty bad to the Argonians too.