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Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
I created Ulv specifically to join the Stormcloaks and be the ultimate Nord Hero, but I simply can't do it.

I cannot join the Stormcloaks. Honestly! I tried! Really! I did!

I did everything Ulfrich wanted, I helped to retrieve the crown and then... I just couldn't bring it to rive it to him. It just wasn't worth it.

After hours of listening to self-important speeches, racist comments, self-righteous delusions, I just couldn't.

I am a terrible person.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!
 

Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
Can't you at that point, still take the crown to Solitude, even though you joined the Cloaks first? I've always wondered but never actually tried.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Can't you at that point, still take the crown to Solitude, even though you joined the Cloaks first? I've always wondered but never actually tried.
Yup. And that's just what I did. I feel so guilty... Not about being a turncoat, but because I didn't just keep it and give it to my Lucia as a b'day present. :)
 

Lewsean

Member
Ulfric has never said a single racist comment in the game :p Not like it matters, using "racist" to describe an ES character is hard considering you use that word with the baggage it holds in the real world. The "racism" you see is merely a fact of life in Tamriel.
 

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
Hmph. Another milk-drinker crying about his effort.

Joke's aside, I didn't know you could betray a faction by handing the Crown to the opposition. Sounds like something my current character would do without second thought.

As for stormcloack racism... its more about distrust. Apperantly, if dunmers did something to aid the war, they would gain more priviledges and would be treated kindly. Nords offer kindness as return for favor. That is not full racism, its about 30-40% racism.
 
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Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Ulfric has never said a single racist comment in the game :p Not like it matters, using "racist" to describe an ES character is hard considering you use that word with the baggage it holds in the real world. The "racism" you see is merely a fact of life in Tamriel.
Yeah...yeah... whatever...
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Hmph. Another milk-drinker crying about his effort.

Joke's aside, I didn't know you could betray a faction by handing the Crown to the opposition. Sounds like something my current character would do without second thought.

As for stormcloack racism... its more about distrust. Apperantly, if dunmers did something to aid the war, they would gain more priviledges and would be treated kindly. Nords offer kindness as return for favor. That is not full racism, its about 30-40% racism.
It's the Nord's war. The Dunmer couldn't give a flyin' fig. And I don't blame them. Neither do I, and I AM a Nord.
 

Lewsean

Member
Ulfric has never said a single racist comment in the game :p Not like it matters, using "racist" to describe an ES character is hard considering you use that word with the baggage it holds in the real world. The "racism" you see is merely a fact of life in Tamriel.
Yeah...yeah... whatever...
That was actually a challenge for you to quote his so called racism :p Though I don't know how one can be classed as racist for having disdain for lazy refugees who refuse to help the only Jarl that allows mass Dunmer migration into his City.
At the same time we have Dunmer as the boss of a Nord who also owns his own Farmland(Do you have any idea how valuable farmland is in a tundra?). Basically, if you examine the details, they show, quite clearly, that the cry of "racism" is simply Imperial rhetoric.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Ulfric has never said a single racist comment in the game :p Not like it matters, using "racist" to describe an ES character is hard considering you use that word with the baggage it holds in the real world. The "racism" you see is merely a fact of life in Tamriel.
Yeah...yeah... whatever...
That was actually a challenge for you to quote his so called racism :p Though I don't know how one can be classed as racist for having disdain for lazy refugees who refuse to help the only Jarl that allows mass Dunmer migration into his City.
At the same time we have Dunmer as the boss of a Nord who also owns his own Farmland(Do you have any idea how valuable farmland is in a tundra?). Basically, if you examine the details, they show, quite clearly, that the cry of "racism" is simply Imperial rhetoric.
All right. I can do that. I don't have the time to pull up all the dialogue that goes on in Windhelm at the moment, but I'll be happy to. I can only assume that you've never played a Dunmer or an Argonian in Windhelm. Just listen to the dialogue of the Shatter-Shields or the Stone-Fists.

I will admit that Ulfic does not say anything overtly racist. He is a politician, after all. Wouldn't be prudent.

Lazy refugees? One owns a successful farm. Others work stores and clubs and, no doubt, elsewhere in the city. It's not like they're sitting around doing nothing AND they're in the most run down section of the city that even other nords in the city recognize as being ignored.

Ulfric did not allow the refugees, nor his father, it was his grandfather or maybe earlier. Don't forget how long ago the Red Mountain blew up.

I still say. Why would the Dunmer or the Argonian's even care about Ulfric's little war? It means nothing and will accomplish nothing.

How often do you hear "Skyrim is for the Nords!". You known damn well that they would be more than happy to throw anyone out of Skyrim that wasn't a Nord.

Sorry - I will never agree with the Stormcloaks. And I will never play on their side unless I am playing a complete lunkhead who is only in to violence.

It is just not worth it. For me, there is no appeal to Windhelm, to any of it's residents or to Hjerim at all. There is no beauty. There is no poetry and there is certainly no welcome.
 

Lewsean

Member
Lazy refugees? One owns a successful farm. Others work stores and clubs and, no doubt, elsewhere in the city. It's not like they're sitting around doing nothing AND they're in the most run down section of the city that even other nords in the city recognize as being ignored.
Yes, this is precisely what I was saying, those Dark Elves who worked hard have been thoroughly rewarded for their efforts. Racism can not be claimed if the apparent victims of said racism can be THE BOSS of the race that claims to be superior.

Ulfric did not allow the refugees, nor his father, it was his grandfather or maybe earlier. Don't forget how long ago the Red Mountain blew up.
Yet he continues to allow them to live in his City, a city that his home to homeless NORDS. A racist would not see those he hates have a roof over their heads whilst a fellow Nord is in the cold. He could quite easily open the gates and throw them all to the wolves(Or they could travel to Imperial territory, but they don't, strange eh?), that would take care of the nagging people he has no respect for.. But he doesn't, he allows them to stay and complain.

I still say. Why would the Dunmer or the Argonian's even care about Ulfric's little war? It means nothing and will accomplish nothing.
Because they've been living in his city since the destruction of Red Mountain? After providing food and shelter to these people in their darkest hour(More than any other hold by sheer numbers) the least they could do is help in the reclaiming of their land. "I don't care that you're losing your home but you must allow us to live in your city because we've lost our home". Again, it's quite a simple solution.. If you don't want to help in his war, stop living in his City.

How often do you hear "Skyrim is for the Nords!". You known damn well that they would be more than happy to throw anyone out of Skyrim that wasn't a Nord.
Except that isn't the case as can be seen by the inhabitants of Stormcloak territory. Not one single hold/province is 100% Nord.[/QUOTE]

Sorry - I will never agree with the Stormcloaks. And I will never play on their side unless I am playing a complete lunkhead who is only in to violence.

It is just not worth it. For me, there is no appeal to Windhelm, to any of it's residents or to Hjerim at all. There is no beauty. There is no poetry and there is certainly no welcome.
That's perfectly fine, the choice was there for a reason, we wouldn't all be talking about it six years later if it wasn't :p I'll just argue the stance that Stormcloaks are racist until the bitter end, because EVERYTHING points to the opposite. Skyrim is for Nords. Nordic Gods, Nordic customs, Nordic kings.
Just as it is in the Black Marsh for Argonians, Hammerfell for Redguards, Valenwood for the Bosmer etc etc.

"Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in the South?!"
THE KING IN THE NOOOOOOOORF.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
@Lewsean
I'm not going to justify my reasons for my feelings further. I did that years ago and my stance has not changed.
I'll stick with the stickyed item if I truly want to comment, but I find that this subject leads to heated exchanges and hurt feelings.
Thank you for the discussion though. :)
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It begins.

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Yes, this is precisely what I was saying, those Dark Elves who worked hard have been thoroughly rewarded for their efforts. Racism can not be claimed if the apparent victims of said racism can be THE BOSS of the race that claims to be superior.

Stormcloaks aren't a race. They're a rebellion.

Yet he continues to allow them to live in his City, a city that his home to homeless NORDS. A racist would not see those he hates have a roof over their heads whilst a fellow Nord is in the cold. He could quite easily open the gates and throw them all to the wolves(Or they could travel to Imperial territory, but they don't, strange eh?), that would take care of the nagging people he has no respect for.. But he doesn't, he allows them to stay and complain.

Ulfric isn't stupid, and he has no real reason to suddenly lose any sense of the man he is due to views shared by those he leads. For starters this is a third of his city, he would need to lose ground to the Empire if he wanted to quell any uprising the Dunmer would indeed cause were he to try use force against them.

The Dunmer he has in his city are providing him with the money and food required to wage his rebellion, he may not like them or could believe they're below Nords but that doesn't mean he'll start a problem that wouldn't provide him with any tactical advantage.

Ulfric speaks a good talk, but he also equates his people to wheat when talking about sacrifices.

Because they've been living in his city since the destruction of Red Mountain? After providing food and shelter to these people in their darkest hour(More than any other hold by sheer numbers) the least they could do is help in the reclaiming of their land. "I don't care that you're losing your home but you must allow us to live in your city because we've lost our home". Again, it's quite a simple solution.. If you don't want to help in his war, stop living in his City.

Red Mountain happened two hundred years ago, the Dunmer arrived long before Ulfric, long before any rebellion and quite frankly owe him no more aid than they give the Legion. The Stormcloaks are not reclaiming land, that is what the Empire is doing.

Many people in Windhelm do nothing for the rebellion, and most wouldn't be able to. Asking a third of your city to die in the name of a cause they don't believe in and then blame them for not wanting to face trained soldiers in combat, after several years of being treated like crap by those in the service of Ulfric doesn't make much sense.

To many Nords, Ulfric is a traitor. You can't view the Stormcloaks as the Nordic race anymore than you could view a faction in the historic War of Succession as the Nord people. So why should the Dunmer view it as that?

That's perfectly fine, the choice was there for a reason, we wouldn't all be talking about it six years later if it wasn't :p I'll just argue the stance that Stormcloaks are racist until the bitter end, because EVERYTHING points to the opposite. Skyrim is for Nords. Nordic Gods, Nordic customs, Nordic kings.
Just as it is in the Black Marsh for Argonians, Hammerfell for Redguards, Valenwood for the Bosmer etc etc.

"Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in the South?!"
THE KING IN THE NOOOOOOOORF.

Many Stormcloaks are racist, and it does indeed infect areas of their cause. Whatever your views on Ulfric and his own personal opinion, you can't just deny what we're shown when it comes down to what Ulfric's men are like.

Ulfric's reason for fighting and those of all his men are not the same, this desire to leave the Empire and be hostile to non-Nords is not something new and I won't claim it is what Ulfric is truly about. It's no real surprise you'll get ugliness in the Stormcloaks, they're not perfect and they're not meant to be. You can try justify it how you wish, but supporting a faction's belief doesn't mean you have to like everything and try paint them as if they can do no harm.

No matter what side you fight for you're causing harm. Supporting one faction doesn't always have to mean you need/require to hate the other faction. This is a bloody civil war where brothers are against brothers. Families and friends are torn apart, and those who are not taking sides are being punished the most.

Your normal citizen of skyrim is afraid of both factions, they're the ones being harmed the most as the infighting continues. Not every soldier in the Legion or Stormcloaks would be honorable, and you'll always get those who take advantage of their new found authority to take what they want.
 
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Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
This thread turned into Imperials vs Stormcloacks somehow.... I like it!!
 

Lewsean

Member
It begins.


Stormcloaks aren't a race. They're a rebellion.
I was talking about the Dunmer farm owner in Eastmarch having Nord worker(s). A faction that holds racist ideals would not allow such a thing to happen in their capital.

Ulfric isn't stupid, and he has no real reason to suddenly lose any sense of the man he is due to views shared by those he leads. For starters this is a third of his city, he would need to lose ground to the Empire if he wanted to quell any uprising the Dunmer would indeed cause were he to try use force against them.
It's a view that is held by individuals, not the Stormcloaks, which is the stance I was trying to argue against :p People don't join the Stormcloaks because they're apparently racist (That is the most common reason, not the only one)
The Snow-Shod(Sp) family in Riften for example, the Housecarl to the Jarl is hinted to be romantically involved with a High Elf yet is one of the most staunch supporters of Ulfric you can talk to.
Elves owning high priority businesses (Stables, farms, meaderies etc)
To take it at face value and claim Stormcloaks are racist is simply narrow minded and ignores the ins and outs of the issue.


Red Mountain happened two hundred years ago, the Dunmer arrived long before Ulfric, long before any rebellion and quite frankly owe him no more aid than they give the Legion. The Stormcloaks are not reclaiming land, that is what the Empire is doing.

Many people in Windhelm do nothing for the rebellion, and most wouldn't be able to. Asking a third of your city to die in the name of a cause they don't believe in and then blame them for not wanting to face trained soldiers in combat, after several years of being treated like crap by those in the service of Ulfric doesn't make much sense.

To many Nords, Ulfric is a traitor. You can't view the Stormcloaks as the Nordic race anymore than you could view a faction in the historic War of Succession as the Nord people. So why should the Dunmer view it as that?
They're not being asked to die or fight, they're being asked to contribute instead of being lazy layabouts who do nothing but sit in their slum complaining day in day out that their problems aren't being prioritised. The Elves who don't act like those in the slum are left alone to prosper.

Also the claiming land part is completely down to personal opinion, the Jarls on the Stormcloaks side own their holds(Same with the Imperials), they merely swear fealty to the High King. How can the Empire take back what they don't own in the first place? I was merely using it as an analogy to explain why some Stormcloaks feel pissed off at the Dunmer in Windhelm. "We helped you when you lost your land, you won't help us now we've lost our land".

Dialogue between Rikke and Tullius also shows many Stormcloaks are joining BECAUSE of the way the Empire is handling the rebellion, nothing to do with "For the Nords!!" or Talos, simply the Empires lack of compassion, in Rikke's words "Garnering support where there weren't any before".
The empire is simply too disconnected from it's people now. A blind man could see from a mile away what would happen in Skyrim if the Empire outlawed the very reason the Nords joined them so willingly in the first place.



Besides, the Imperials can hardly take the moral high ground when it comes to racial superiority lol.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I was talking about the Dunmer farm owner in Eastmarch having Nord worker(s). A faction that holds racist ideals would not allow such a thing to happen in their capital.

So what you're suggesting is that in order to not like other races, they need to act on it in an extreme manner. This doesn't happen inside the city, but on a farm it's also not really liked and obviously considered strange enough that people go look.

"Every now and then someone from the city comes by. Think they aren't used to seeing a Nord working for a Dark Elf."

It's a view that is held by individuals, not the Stormcloaks, which is the stance I was trying to argue against :p People don't join the Stormcloaks because they're apparently racist (That is the most common reason, not the only one)
The Snow-Shod(Sp) family in Riften for example, the Housecarl to the Jarl is hinted to be romantically involved with a High Elf yet is one of the most staunch supporters of Ulfric you can talk to.
Elves owning high priority businesses (Stables, farms, meaderies etc)
To take it at face value and claim Stormcloaks are racist is simply narrow minded and ignores the ins and outs of the issue.

I'm not saying all of them are, but there is plenty who are and it infects certain areas of their cause. I'm not talking about your one noble family, or a bad Housecarl who is being manipulated and distracted through sex.

Elves owning businesses, I don't know what you're expecting to happen? Yes, they own businesses. Just because a lot of Stormcloaks are against outsiders, doesn't mean businesses will be taken away by the Jarls.

The Darks Elves in Windhelm represent a large ethnic group, they've been there for a long time and residents there would find more issue with them than High Elves. You might argue "But, the Thalmor are High Elves! So why would such and such etc" Your average citizen of Windhelm would have little interaction with High Elves, unless they were Imperial Legion during the Great War. You may even find other elves could be treated better in Windhelm, they won't be loved as a Nord, but they're not a resident dark elf.

They're not being asked to die or fight, they're being asked to contribute instead of being lazy layabouts who do nothing but sit in their slum complaining day in day out that their problems aren't being prioritised. The Elves who don't act like those in the slum are left alone to prosper.

Contribute how? Despite all of them working, they're lazy layabouts. What you're suggesting is that in order to be treated fairly by the Stormcloaks you can't be neutral, and must contribute to the war more than others in Windhelm.

It isn't just the Dunmer who have issue with the Stormcloaks in Windhelm, but the Argonians are happy to see them go too.

Also the claiming land part is completely down to personal opinion, the Jarls on the Stormcloaks side own their holds(Same with the Imperials), they merely swear fealty to the High King. How can the Empire take back what they don't own in the first place?

So they merely swore an oath of loyalty and service to the High King and Empire. You're part of an Empire, and the Emperor tends to outrank the High King of Skyrim. The Holds of Skyrim are largely independent to a degree and are ruled over by the Jarls to govern how they see fit(within Imperial limits, such as when Skald was made to leave giants alone).

Reclaiming, reunifying. It went from Empire controlled to open rebellion. If you want to argue titles, and who owns what you can be stripped of your holdings by the Empire or your High King.

Dialogue between Rikke and Tullius also shows many Stormcloaks are joining BECAUSE of the way the Empire is handling the rebellion, nothing to do with "For the Nords!!" or Talos, simply the Empires lack of compassion, in Rikke's words "Garnering support where there weren't any before".

It has been awhile, but I have no memory of this dialogue? From what I remember Rikke believed the Stormcloaks to be shortsighted and distracting the Empire from the real enemy.

The empire is simply too disconnected from it's people now. A blind man could see from a mile away what would happen in Skyrim if the Empire outlawed the very reason the Nords joined them so willingly in the first place.

What reason was that? The Nords joined the Third Empire "willingly" due to being conquered/forced to surrender. Or do you mean the wealth and glory promised to them if they fought for King Cuhlecain?

Besides, the Imperials can hardly take the moral high ground when it comes to racial superiority lol.

In what way?
 
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Lewsean

Member
So what you're suggesting is that in order to not like other races, they need to act on it in an extreme manner. This doesn't happen inside the city, but on a farm it's also not really liked and obviously considered strange enough that people go look.
That is precisely what I'm saying.. You can't claim a faction is "racist" then ignore than said faction allows the supposed race they hate to own business and be above the pecking order of Nords.


I'm not saying all of them are, but there is plenty who are and it infects certain areas of their cause. I'm not talking about your one noble family, or a bad Housecarl who is being manipulated and distracted through sex.
That is what is being insinuated. Once again you can't ignore the obvious examples that discredit the racism claim simply as individual cases that don't tie into the Stormcloak's at all whilst citing individual cases as to why the Stormcloaks are racist.. She's also not a bad Housecarl, she's manipulating the Jarl in favour of the Black Briars.

Elves owning businesses, I don't know what you're expecting to happen? Yes, they own businesses. Just because a lot of Stormcloaks are against outsiders, doesn't mean businesses will be taken away by the Jarls.
If the Stormcloaks were racist, that is in fact exactly what would happen. The fact that it isn't happening only goes to further my point that they aren't racist.

The Darks Elves in Windhelm represent a large ethnic group, they've been there for a long time and residents there would find more issue with them than High Elves. You might argue "But, the Thalmor are High Elves! So why would such and such etc" Your average citizen of Windhelm would have little interaction with High Elves, unless they were Imperial Legion during the Great War. You may even find other elves could be treated better in Windhelm, they won't be loved as a Nord, but they're not a resident dark elf.
So, it's not racism...

Contribute how? Despite all of them working, they're lazy layabouts. What you're suggesting is that in order to be treated fairly by the Stormcloaks you can't be neutral, and must contribute to the war more than others in Windhelm.
Taken by the dialogue of NPC's, most of them do not work at all and do nothing but sit in the New Gnisis Cornerclub.

It isn't just the Dunmer who have issue with the Stormcloaks in Windhelm, but the Argonians are happy to see them go too.
Those same Argonians are drug addicted thieves. There's no problem with Argonians in Riften, which again, proves Stormcloaks are NOT racist.


So they merely swore an oath of loyalty and service to the High King and Empire. You're part of an Empire, and the Emperor tends to outrank the High King of Skyrim. The Holds of Skyrim are largely independent to a degree and are ruled over by the Jarls to govern how they see fit(within Imperial limits, such as when Skald was made to leave giants alone).

Reclaiming, reunifying. It went from Empire controlled to open rebellion. If you want to argue titles, and who owns what you can be stripped of your holdings by the Empire or your High King.
But the Jarls of these holds see Ulfric as High King and do not recognise Imperial authority. Thus making Imperial laws irrelevant.




It has been awhile, but I have no memory of this dialogue? From what I remember Rikke believed the Stormcloaks to be shortsighted and distracting the Empire from the real enemy.
They do, but she also says the current way the Empire is handling the rebellion is merely strengthening their resolve and giving them more supporters. Tullius says he understands, but is under orders from the Capital.


What reason was that? The Nords joined the Third Empire "willingly" due to being conquered/forced to surrender. Or do you mean the wealth and glory promised to them if they fought for King Cuhlecain?
They weren't forced to surrender. Skyrim joined before any real defence was even thought about, simply because of Talos. Even if he did play on his Nord heritage, HE was the reason many Nords refused to fight against him but rather fought for him. Nords wouldn't just surrender.



In what way?
The numerous dialogue options that show nothing but contempt for Nords and their culture.


I hope we continue this :p It just seems a few things have gotten misunderstood seeing as the start of this debate with Daelon was mainly to counter blind racist arguments for the Dunmer whilst a lot of your arguments are more for the general anti-outsider sentiment, which is common in Tamriel among all races.
Seriously, these whining layabouts should thank their lucky stars they aren't under the rule of Hoag Merkiller.. See if a little grey quarter would offend you so much then.

Besides, after playing TES for over 15 years if your ultimate turning point in your decision to join Stormcloaks/Empire is racism, then wow, you haven't been paying attention xD. Racial tensions are as common as rain.

Stormcloaks are nationalistic, not racist. They believe THEY should rule Skyrim, not some underling of a group that wants to destroy all signs of men on Nirn.

Also -

This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found.

Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.

The Dunmer are the only ones to blame for the mess they are in, they were told specifically to govern themselves. Which goes back to my point if they want Ulfric to fix the mess they made, they should help him with his war.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That is precisely what I'm saying.. You can't claim a faction is "racist" then ignore than said faction allows the supposed race they hate to own business and be above the pecking order of Nords.

They're solely focused Nords, and you have those who are against all outsiders. I'm not claiming an entire faction is racist down to each and every person, and it has nothing to do with allowing who owns a business. I never said Ulfric and those of his men will completely align, Ulfric's soldiers have no authority to close your business.

The "Stormcloaks" are together in their support of Ulfric for High King, but the rest of their ideologies/reasons for fighting are different.

That is what is being insinuated. Once again you can't ignore the obvious examples that discredit the racism claim simply as individual cases that don't tie into the Stormcloak's at all whilst citing individual cases as to why the Stormcloaks are racist..

This isn't individual cases, there is a large percentage of those who feel this way and that outsiders should be removed. It isn't a feeling unique to the Stormcloaks as majority of the Old Holds have been this way for centuries, but most of the Stormcloaks are recruited from them. Ulfric's cause rides on the shoulders of these people.

I don't care about the Stormcloaks being racist, it isn't that hard to see they're focused on Nords and frankly do not care about other races.

If the Stormcloaks were racist, that is in fact exactly what would happen. The fact that it isn't happening only goes to further my point that they aren't racist.

Why? There are plenty of racists in Tamriel who don't go to complete extremes. You can dislike, distrust and not go into someone's shop, but it is up to the Jarls to close them all down. There are Dunmer in Windhelm who hate Nords, and are racist in the exact same way the Ulfric's supporters of Windhelm are, yet you use them as an example in the past. You can't have it both ways, and there is hatred on both sides.

You're expecting the Jarls to be carbon copies of their supporters.

People can avoid those shops, such as the case in Whiterun where two businesses are suffering. Expecting the Stormcloak aligned Holds to issue a decree banning all non-Nords this early in the war is a stretch.

So, it's not racism...

You can hate Orcs, doesn't mean you hate Dunmer. You're trying to group everyone into actual "Man/Mer" rather than what we're being shown. A Nord can absolutely hate Imperials, doesn't mean he'll hate Bretons.

You're looking for blanket racism, when this is more specific. The people of Windhelm have more interaction with the Dunmer, and there are those who would view a large ethnic group living in a run down slum with disdain.

Taken by the dialogue of NPC's, most of them do not work at all and do nothing but sit in the New Gnisis Cornerclub.

Which dialogue? The only dialogue mentioning the Cornerclub is the fact it isn't called an Inn or Tavern. All of the Dunmer work, even the ones who hate the Nords.

Those same Argonians are drug addicted thieves. There's no problem with Argonians in Riften, which again, proves Stormcloaks are NOT racist.

They don't know that, and they're not all skooma addicts.

What happens in Ulfric's city, doesn't mean it must happen in every other city. Riften is supporting Ulfric's bid for High King, it does not mean they must now banish their resident Argonians.

Although, if we want to get deeper...

Svana: "Madesi, why don't you just take a bed here? There's no need to sleep in Beggar's Row."
Madesi: "The cold stone, the dampness... it suits me, Svana."
Svana: "Are you sure that's the real reason? It wouldn't have anything to do with others making an Argonian unwelcome, because if it is..."
Madesi: "You have a kind heart; much too kind for Riften. Don't worry about me, I'll be just fine."

It is besides the point though, you were arguing the Holds are independent and merely fealty and now expect them all the be the exact same. Ulfric isn't King yet.

But the Jarls of these holds see Ulfric as High King and do not recognise Imperial authority. Thus making Imperial laws irrelevant.

No they don't, they believe Ulfric should be High King. Not once do they call Ulfric king, and any who speak about Ulfric say they want him on the throne of Skyrim. The Moot has not met, and Ulfric has not claimed any title.

Not to the Empire. Do bandits in Eastmarch make Ulfric irrelevant?

They do, but she also says the current way the Empire is handling the rebellion is merely strengthening their resolve and giving them more supporters. Tullius says he understands, but is under orders from the Capital.

You'll need to find me that one.

They weren't forced to surrender. Skyrim joined before any real defence was even thought about, simply because of Talos. Even if he did play on his Nord heritage, HE was the reason many Nords refused to fight against him but rather fought for him. Nords wouldn't just surrender.

No he wasn't, the nobility feared him. After Sancre Tor and he won over a nordic army, others would flock to his banner due to promises of wealth and glory. He forced their surrender, they didn't just join him without bloodshed.

Why wouldn't Nords surrender? I get you like Nords, but they're not mindless brutes with every single one being "death or glory".

The numerous dialogue options that show nothing but contempt for Nords and their culture.

Such as Tullius not knowing Sovngarde? Imperials aren't really about race, considering how secular and diverse the Empire is. Though technically speaking "Imperial" refers to anyone who is a citizen of the Empire. You do get bigots in every race, but a race isn't a faction and you seem to keep viewing the Stormcloaks as the Nords.

Nords have often been viewed with great respect by the Imperials. Skyrim and Cyrodiil are like an old married couple, have their moments.

The Dunmer are the only ones to blame for the mess they are in, they were told specifically to govern themselves. Which goes back to my point if they want Ulfric to fix the mess they made, they should help him with his war.

They weren't told to govern themselves, that quote is first seen in the TES novels. It refers only to Solstheim. That has nothing at all to do with Windhelm, and if you think any Jarl in their right mind would make a third of their city independent...

"Untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor." -Skyrim's Offer of Solstheim to Morrowind, 4E 16
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It just seems a few things have gotten misunderstood seeing as the start of this debate with Daelon was mainly to counter blind racist arguments for the Dunmer whilst a lot of your arguments are more for the general anti-outsider sentiment, which is common in Tamriel among all races.

One of the most misunderstood things in this debate (including the main thread) is "Imperial".

Mostly because Imperial is rather a broad term, and can refer to many different things.

Seriously, these whining layabouts should thank their lucky stars they aren't under the rule of Hoag Merkiller.. See if a little grey quarter would offend you so much then.

If the roles reversed and these were Nords in an Imperial City, would you dismiss them so quickly?

Besides, after playing TES for over 15 years if your ultimate turning point in your decision to join Stormcloaks/Empire is racism, then wow, you haven't been paying attention xD. Racial tensions are as common as rain.

How factions are reflected and interact in the game, are always the reasons players choose to do things. I haven't personally come across anyone who sides with the Empire solely on perceived racism. Though I do believe Dunmer are
quite a popular race for many TES players.

I rarely take a side when playing, and if I do it depends on the character.
 

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