Empire vs Stormcloaks

[DrunkenMage]

Only detail I really noticed was, "Hang on why am I the only one still tied up" I mean everyone else got to have their hands and I really wanted to loot people during the dragon attack, but yeah the General is too busy talking to Stormcloak and Hadvar notices you shouldn't be there, but the Captain probably annoyed at being stationed in Skyrim because they were on their way to the Imperial province, she probably just wants to get it over with and probably go home so she just says kill him/her and Hadvar can't really say no to the Captain. To be honest I may of done the same, not like if you went to a captive and went "Are you a Stormcloak? if not you're free to go mate"

 

[Flint firestorm]

Only detail I really noticed was, "Hang on why am I the only one still tied up" I mean everyone else got to have their hands and I really wanted to loot people during the dragon attack, but yeah the General is too busy talking to Stormcloak and Hadvar notices you shouldn't be there, but the Captain probably annoyed at being stationed in Skyrim because they were on their way to the Imperial province, she probably just wants to get it over with and probably go home so she just says kill him/her and Hadvar can't really say no to the Captain. To be honest I may of done the same, not like if you went to a captive and went "Are you a Stormcloak? if not you're free to go mate"

You do relise that the captain is a Nord right?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Oh she seemed rather like the Imperial tanned type, must have missed that Sorry.

 

[imaginepageant]

Didn't they go "But he/she's not on the list?" but that Captain ordered it to go ahead, I mean they were just following order's, so the blame would be on that Captain?

Exactly. They know you're not on the list - yet the Captain shrugs it off and sends you to your death regardless. She doesn't care that you might be innocent. Her disturbingly casual attitude towards the situation leads me to believe that her decision to excute you would be tolerated and accepted by the Empire (i.e. the government, but not necessarily every single person within it).

ETA: To further elaborate after reading other replies. Yes, Tullius was, at the moment, distracted with Ulfric, but he was still there; plus, there were several other witnesses, including Hadvar, who was clearly aware that the Captain was deciding to execute a potentially innocent person. Yet the Captain did not seem the least bit worried about facing any consequences for this decision, which implies that there would be no consequences, which implies that this is an acceptable practice within the Empire.

May I remind you that these are not modern times and if a group of people who let's say killed the president where seen and you Where with them do you think you'd get a trail a what makes you think that the stormcloaks who arrest people for thinking differently and are lead by a murderer would not execute you

No, these are not modern times. But I'm not making a statement about a medieval legal system versus a modern legal system. I'm making a statement about morality and ethics, and I don't believe that killing an innocent person is ever morally or ethically right, no matter what era it is.

And yes, you absolutely would get a trial today if you were a suspect in an assassination on the President of the United States. You've heard the phrase, "Innocent until proven guilty," right? Even John Wilkes Booth was meant to have been captured alive, and was shot and killed "without order, pretext or excuse" by a soldier disobeying direct orders.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Skyrim doesn't seem like the Innocent until proven guilty, seem's like a place of "Kill ask questions later" I killed a Wood Elf in the pine forests in skyrim, cause well he scared the hell out of me, turns out he was trying to sell me skooma, but I mean bugger came out of no where in the middle of the night, in the middle of the forest, he got an arrow in the face before he came too close, I don't like encounter's in the middle of the night, in the middle of the forest, who run's up to someone with an arrow loaded trying to hunt deer.

 

[Flint firestorm]

I ask every stormcloak supporter this. Do you really want to be led by a dishonourable murderous betrayer like ulfric?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Murderous betrayer? for the Thalmor thing or the High King thing.

 

[imaginepageant]

I ask every stormcloak supporter this. Do you really want to be led by a dishonourable murderous betrayer like ulfric?

I suppose that depends on whether or not you believe Ulfric is a dishonorable, murderous betrayer. He challenged Torygg, in the "old Nord way," to a formal one-on-one duel for the right to rule Skyrim, and won. I suppose that is betrayal of one's king, but I personally don't see it as dishonorable or murderous. Revolution cannot occur without challenge to the current power, after all.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Murderous betrayer? for the Thalmor thing or the High King thing.

The high king

 

[DrunkenMage]

Depends he still goes to that Nord Heaven place, if you kill him before going there.

The High King Accepted the challenge, Ulfric didn't just walk up and go "FUS RO DAH!" stab stab. he issued a challenge, but personally I like siding with the Empire, but I do like making a stormcloak guy and ambushing Imperial patrol's that wander skyrim with a nord captive, using a bow to take out two then running up with a war axe.

 

[Flint firestorm]

I suppose that depends on whether or not you believe Ulfric is a dishonorable, murderous betrayer. He challenged Torygg, in the "old Nord way," to a formal one-on-one duel for the right to rule Skyrim, and won. I suppose that is betrayal of one's king, but I personally don't see it as dishonorable or murderous. Revolution cannot occur without challenge to the current power, after all.

Why don't you ask torygg or any other person besides ulfric who was there

 

[DrunkenMage]

Torygg - The Elder Scrolls Wiki

He's not really a boy.

 

[imaginepageant]

Why don't you ask torygg or any other person besides ulfric who was there

Oh, like Torygg's wife, Elisif, who indeed states that Ulfric issued a proper challenge to Torygg?

 

[VictoireXII]

You do relise that the captain is a Nord right?

The Imperial Captain is a Redguard. Hadvar is a nord.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think people should just side with who they feel is right, that's the point of the Civil War, there is no good or bad people in this, Though the Empire bribed most of the Jarl's when the ban of Talos happened, sent them chests of gold to not go against it, so Ulfric is fighting for the freedom to praise Talos, the Empire want's Skyrim to follow the Law's and ban Talos for the time being, which to many Nord's is how they put it "They may aswell of asked us to cut off our ear's" Nord's are very proud people, that value honour and tradition that is somewhat strange to the Empire, in Skyrim you can issue one on one combat with the King, if you went to the Emperor "I challenge you to a duel" and draw a sword, you'd have 300 arrows in you.

It's war, nothing is going to be perfectly good or evil, you do things as for the Markarth incident, you have one person's view, but the Empire said to Ulfric's Milita "You can worship Talos" they said they could, but then ended up arresting the lot of them. I prefer the Empire because it's how I view the civil war, but I don't try too much to think about it, the more you end up thinking about it, the more you end up hating both sides, many people's view's towards to Empire come from other Elder Scroll games, the strong empire you know, but you have to take 200 year's into account, the empire is a shadow of it's former self but who know's the Empire may come back or it may indeed crumble, no amount of saying "You should side with the Empire" or "Stormcloaks are better" will do much, people view war differently, people view sides differently.

 

[bulbaquil]

The religious aspects of the game are very hit-and-miss, along with the establishment of the White-Gold Concordat (which shouldn't have happened in the first place).

I do think that's part of the reason so many side Imperial. Ostensibly it's "racism vs. religious persecution", but as it's manifested in the game it ends up being "racism that clearly is present vs. religious persecution that supposedly exists but in reality just about everyone except the Thalmor worships Talos pretty openly anyway and no one cares." That and Ulfric really doesn't have all that many redeeming qualities.

I think if Bethesda removed Ulfric from the Markarth Incident and/or ramped up the religious persecution angle more (maybe have Roggvir being executed for open worship of Talos rather than just for letting Ulfric escape, Heimskr arrested the first time you enter Whiterun after the Imperial-side Battle of Whiterun, the Shrine of Talos in Markarth being much harder to get in if Imperials control the city), there'd be more Stormcloak support... but as it is, the poll results indicate it's pretty even, which was probably Bethesda's goal. It should be just about even.

 

[imaginepageant]

Ulfric also abused his ancient power of the shout, which even though Ulfric took advantage of Nord culture to challenge the king, it's actually taboo in both Nord culture and to the Greybeards to use the shout in the manner he did. It was the Nords, after all, who pledged themselves to the Talos and the Empire once Talos Himself used the power of the Thu'um at the Battle of Sancre Tor. However, similar to us, the Dragonborn, Talos too was Dragonborn and could use the Thu'um as he pleases, so he is an exception that can use the shout for combat purposes.

I've always thought of it the other way around. A Dragonborn using the Thu'um in battle would be an unfair advantage, since it's an in-born ability and an inherent skill. However, Ulfric trained with the Greybeards, just as any other Nord could have, had they chosen to. His ability to Shout is no different than his ability to wield a sword - both require training and effort; both are learned skills.

Jurgen Windcaller did change the Way of the Voice into a philosophy of peace, but according to this Wiki, Tiber Septim returned the Voice to the art of warfare after creating the Imperial College of the Voice. I admittedly know very little of this aspect of Elder Scrolls lore, but if this is indeed true, then Ulfric's use of the Voice in his duel with Torygg should be acceptable.

 

[imaginepageant]

Ostensibly it's "racism vs. religious persecution", but as it's manifested in the game it ends up being "racism that clearly is present vs. religious persecution that supposedly exists but in reality just about everyone except the Thalmor worships Talos pretty openly anyway and no one cares."

But people don't worship Talos openly, at least not outside of Windhelm (and, well, Heimskr). The Talos shrine was removed from the Temple of the Divines in Solitude. There are side quests in which you must root out secretive Talos worshippers for one reason or another (e.g. blackmailing the cook of Understone Keep with the knowledge his hidden amulet of Talos). There's at least one shrine in Skyrim where worshippers lay dead, slain by a Thalmor agent. Acilius Bolar protected the shrine of Talos in Bloated Man's Grotto from desecration by the Thalmor by "going forth to meet his death with honor." Even Elisif asks you to bring Torygg's war horn to a shrine of Talos, since she couldn't make an offering to Talos at Torygg's funeral, as she did with the other gods. Persecution does seem to be a serious threat throughout Skyrim if you're discovered worshipping Talos.

 

[tigersauce]

Ulfric Stormcloak, the Stormcloak leader:

• Brutally murdered the High King
• Is racist against all types of elves
• Will not reconcile or even reason with the Legion, nor anyone else

So I'm an Imperial.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I do think that's part of the reason so many side Imperial. Ostensibly it's "racism vs. religious persecution", but as it's manifested in the game it ends up being "racism that clearly is present vs. religious persecution that supposedly exists but in reality just about everyone except the Thalmor worships Talos pretty openly anyway and no one cares." That and Ulfric really doesn't have all that many redeeming qualities.

Very much this. I for one was pretty struck by the fact that despite the decree etc, there are Talos statues/altars in many cities that seem undisturbed no matter what side is "in charge" there, per se. For example, there's the rather prominent one in Whiterun (a city governed by a somewhat more pro-Empire Jarl who privately worships Talos). Yeah, Heimskr is obnoxious and not everyone in town appreciates him, but he seems pretty free to give his sermons. The one in Riften, even after the Civil War ends favoring the Empire, remains in place.

I'm certainly not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen and hasn't happened. There are corpses to prove it. But from what I can see, I really consider the same points you made above.