Umaril_Whitestrake
New Member
Lately I was going through some forums following the completion of my latest oblivion playthrough, and I saw many a heated discussion regarding a hypothetical fight between the Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodiil and the Last Dragonborn (the protagonists of the three latest elder scrolls titles respectively). I have thought about this question for a few days and I have come to a conclusion. (Pleas note: this is my personal opinion and everyone is free to differ with me in this. I am not a Bethesda employee or a lore specialist, but I have spent many an hour on wiki’s and diverse forums.)
First of all, let me set a few rules for this debate.
As I haven’t played Morrowind (it is probably a fantastic game, but it really has aged like **** so yeah) I will leave the Nerevarine out of the equation though I imagine he has pretty good chance, seeing he has defeated the (ex-) god Almalexia.
Now, on to the the real question: Hero of Kvatch or Last Dragonborn. First let me get a few things straight. It is important to separate the debates regarding the game and the lore versions of the characters. The game version is the character you play in-game, and includes everything you can do in game, disregarding glitches, bugs, exploits and, of course, console commands. The lore version is the version I will be focusing on. I will take a deeper look at the characters and their strengths in respect to their achievements and the power they have in the lore.
That’s out of the way, so let’s get on to the matter at hand, shall we? So, grab some olroy cheese and enjoy! Oh yeah, if you haven’t noticed by now, this is gonna be a very, very long post.
First, let’s look at the feats the characters have accomplished.
The last dragonborn is the prophesized slayer of Alduin, born with the soul of a dragon, who has the ability to shout and absorb the very souls of dragons, or shards of Aka. He has slain countless of them and absorbed their souls, enhancing his own strength. He has defeated a millennia old pure blood vampire and defeated Miraak, the first dragonborn, in single combat and absorbed his soul (not to forget that he build no less than three houses!). The last thing we know of the dragonborn is that he is currently serving Hermaeus Mora, daedric prince of Knowledge.
The Champion of Cyrodiil was in mortal life just that, a mere mortal, who, by chance, became involved in the oblivion crisis. He rescued Martin Septim from the forces of Mehrunes Dagon and recovered the Amulet of Kings from Gaiar Alata. He closed multiple oblivion gates, including the great gate, by himself and is the reason Tamriel wasn’t destroyed at the end of the third era. After this he became the blessed Divine Crusader, wielding the legendary relics of the gods themselves and defeated the demigod Umaril in both the physical and spiritual plane. He then travelled to the Shivering Isles and, with guidance of the daedra, stopped the greymarch forever and mantled Sheogorath, the daedric prince of madness.
When comparing the feats both characters have accomplished, in my opinion the Champion of Cyrodiil takes the cheese. Defeating Harkon was a mighty feat, but from a lore perspective I’d argue that Umaril is stronger (although I have no evidence to back this up). Harkon would probably be on the level of a very powerful daedra (not a prince though), and Umaril is literally a demigod. For this thread, I say they’re equal though.
Miraak is also a very powerful foe, and absorbing his soul definitely strengthened the LDB and I’d say that he is more powerful than Mannimarco and Mankar Camoran, even though the former reached Apotheosis and the latter made himself dragonborn. It never is confirmed if the Necromancer was in fact the (or a) ‘version’ of Mannimarco that remained behind after the warp in the west and being ‘a’ dragonborn is less than being the first dragonborn (at least in my book).
On to the real contenders: Alduin and Jyggalag. Many times people say: Alduin is the world eater >>> a daedric prince, even though it is stated in the game that Alduin is not at full power, not during the merethic era, and not during the fourth era. It never is specified how powerful Alduin is during the events of Skyrim.
(SIDE NOTE: In general it never really is specified what Alduin really is. Paarthurnax states that he is “the firstborn of Akatosh”, yet on the Nordic pantheon Alduin IS Akatosh. I have read a theory that states that Akatosh has three forms: Auri-El, who is the beginning of time, Akatosh, who is the ‘current’ of time, and Alduin, who is the end of time (the altmeri, alessian and Nordic version of Akatosh respectively). However, Akatosh creates the LDB to destroy Alduin, so this implies they are completely different entities.)
Jyggalag is the daedric prince order, and is stated to be THE most powerful of the daedric princes. In fact, he became so powerful that all the other daedric princes had to work together to seal him away! )If this does not tell you how powerful he is, then I think you should just take an arrow to the knee and become a guard in the nice little hamlet of Rorikstead) The CoC battled Jyggalag at the climax of the greymarch and managed to defeat him and thereby releasing him from Sheogorath.
With Jyggalag it is the same as with Alduin. I do not think the CoC battled him at full power. Jyggalag just ‘came back into existence’ after an era of being Sheogorath, and he hadn’t regained his full power yet, which happens when he seats on the throne of madness.
This one is a wild card. Both Alduin and Jyggalag aren’t at full power when the protagonists defeat them. Alduin isn’t the world encompassing god he is, and Jyggalag has not regained his full power when the battle occurs. I’ll let everyone decide for themselves who was the more powerful foe here, my guess is that Jyggalag was the more powerful of the two at the time of battle, though Alduin has the potential to become more powerful.
(Besides, neither foe is actually beaten. Alduin’s soul is not absorbed and Jyggalag, being a daedra, cannot be killed.)
Now, onto the power of the protagonists themselves.
Both the LDB and the CoC are immensely powerful beings, and a battle between them would surely be something to behold, were it not that you would be blasted to pieces within seconds if you watched it.
Both are powerful in the regular sense of the word, being masters of the arcane and warriors without equal. Just to make this a little bit simpler, I’d say that they are equals in these aspects.
The last dragonborn has the ability to use the thu’um, an ability all dragonborn possess and are naturally gifted with. Given enough time he would become stronger than even the likes of Jurgen Windcaller and Miraak. In the lore the thu’um is noted to be able to move mountains and level cities, which are feats managed by mere mortals. Just imagine what the LDB would be able to do when practicing under the guidance of Herma-Mora for a few thousand years. In addition to this he has read multiple black books, and probably gained a lot of power from that. In the lore it is yet unknown whether the LDB became a vampire or not, but if he did, that would be a serious power boost as well.
The Champion of Cyrodiil is blessed by all nine divines, the enforcer of the will of the gods on Tamriel and wears the legendary armor of the crusader, created by the divines to be near indestructible. He is the saviour of Bruma, and quite frankly, the whole of Tamriel. Of course, we should surely not forget that aside from being blessed by the gods, the Hero of Kvatch IS in fact a god.
(For the people who doubt this: the Hero is able to sit on Sheogorath’s throne, which only Sheo himself can do, Haskill and even Jyggalag himself acknowledge you as being the new god of Madness and state that “[the Hero] will grown into his station”. By the time of Skyrim, the Hero is gone, but still is there. The Sheogorath you meet in ‘the Mind of Madness’ is in fact the CoC, seeing as he references events that happened during the crisis and stat that “[Sheogorath] was there that whole sordid affair” but due to him having mantled Sheogorath, one cannot be told from the other, they have become the same being).
Not only is the CoC a daedric prince, but he is (one of) the most powerful daedric princes. When Jyggalag was turned into Sheogorath, his realm of order changed with him. Seeing as a daedric prince is litteraly his realm Sheogorath has the largest realm of all. Consequently he is the most powerful of the princes (although this is up for debate). At the very least least he has been noted to be able to outsmart other princes, so there’s that.
On the other side I have read theories that the LDB is in fact a Shezzarine, a living embodiment of Lorkhan. Although I have not researched this topic myself, I think it is not really relevant to this debate overall, at least not in favor of the LDB. This is because Lorkhan was killed by Trinimac at the end of the dawn era. Trinimac was later devoured by Boethiah and became the daedric prince of the Ostracized: Malacath. Malacath is certainly less powerful than Jyggalag and most likely less powerful (or at the very least, equal) compard to Sheogorath.
It may sound that I am favoring the CoC a little (or quite a lot maybe) to some of you, but note that this is just my humble, 2000 word long opinion and it is your right to disagree with everything I’m saying, and hey, that’s what a forum is for!
Now we finally get to the conclusion of this post, the outcome of the battle, the cheese on the cake.
The LDB and CoC are both immensely powerful, and a battle between them would be remembered through the ages. Crushing blow would be answered with shattering spell. If the battle between Vahlok and Miraak tore solstheim from Tamriel, I’d imagine that a battle between these two will have Tamriel join Yokuda on the bottom of the ocean (maybe living in Atmora isn’t so bad after all).
The winner of this battle would, in my opinion, depend on just one factor. What version of the Champion fights this battle. If we would take the mortal version of the Hero, the LDB would absolutely stomp, even if we disregard the fact that he would be susceptible to the bend will shout. The hero would give him a good fight, but eventually to no avail.
If we look at this from the moment the CoC became Sheogorath (or the power he had after he had fully mantled Sheogorath), we have a whole other situation. Clavicus Vile is noted to say that the LDB is about half as powerful as him. If we take into account that the LDB absorbed the soul of Miraak after that, I think he would definitely be able to defeat an aspect of Sheogorath on Mundus. However, I do not think that the LDB would be able to defeat Sheogorath’s true form (even if we forget the fact that a daedric prince literally cannot die). If we were to say that the LDB is on par with Clavicus Vile, Sheo would still beat him, same goes for when he is a Shezzarine. Though most likely the power difference would be even greater and the battle would be very one-sided.
Thus, I declare the Champion of Cyrodiil the ultimate victor of this battle. Feel free to state your opinion down below and remember: this is just a fan’s opinion. I feel this is a very educated guess, but then again, I don’t get to the cloud district very often, so what do I know?
P.S. Sorry for the long post, I have nothing to do with my life so please don’t judge.
First of all, let me set a few rules for this debate.
As I haven’t played Morrowind (it is probably a fantastic game, but it really has aged like **** so yeah) I will leave the Nerevarine out of the equation though I imagine he has pretty good chance, seeing he has defeated the (ex-) god Almalexia.
Now, on to the the real question: Hero of Kvatch or Last Dragonborn. First let me get a few things straight. It is important to separate the debates regarding the game and the lore versions of the characters. The game version is the character you play in-game, and includes everything you can do in game, disregarding glitches, bugs, exploits and, of course, console commands. The lore version is the version I will be focusing on. I will take a deeper look at the characters and their strengths in respect to their achievements and the power they have in the lore.
That’s out of the way, so let’s get on to the matter at hand, shall we? So, grab some olroy cheese and enjoy! Oh yeah, if you haven’t noticed by now, this is gonna be a very, very long post.
First, let’s look at the feats the characters have accomplished.
The last dragonborn is the prophesized slayer of Alduin, born with the soul of a dragon, who has the ability to shout and absorb the very souls of dragons, or shards of Aka. He has slain countless of them and absorbed their souls, enhancing his own strength. He has defeated a millennia old pure blood vampire and defeated Miraak, the first dragonborn, in single combat and absorbed his soul (not to forget that he build no less than three houses!). The last thing we know of the dragonborn is that he is currently serving Hermaeus Mora, daedric prince of Knowledge.
The Champion of Cyrodiil was in mortal life just that, a mere mortal, who, by chance, became involved in the oblivion crisis. He rescued Martin Septim from the forces of Mehrunes Dagon and recovered the Amulet of Kings from Gaiar Alata. He closed multiple oblivion gates, including the great gate, by himself and is the reason Tamriel wasn’t destroyed at the end of the third era. After this he became the blessed Divine Crusader, wielding the legendary relics of the gods themselves and defeated the demigod Umaril in both the physical and spiritual plane. He then travelled to the Shivering Isles and, with guidance of the daedra, stopped the greymarch forever and mantled Sheogorath, the daedric prince of madness.
When comparing the feats both characters have accomplished, in my opinion the Champion of Cyrodiil takes the cheese. Defeating Harkon was a mighty feat, but from a lore perspective I’d argue that Umaril is stronger (although I have no evidence to back this up). Harkon would probably be on the level of a very powerful daedra (not a prince though), and Umaril is literally a demigod. For this thread, I say they’re equal though.
Miraak is also a very powerful foe, and absorbing his soul definitely strengthened the LDB and I’d say that he is more powerful than Mannimarco and Mankar Camoran, even though the former reached Apotheosis and the latter made himself dragonborn. It never is confirmed if the Necromancer was in fact the (or a) ‘version’ of Mannimarco that remained behind after the warp in the west and being ‘a’ dragonborn is less than being the first dragonborn (at least in my book).
On to the real contenders: Alduin and Jyggalag. Many times people say: Alduin is the world eater >>> a daedric prince, even though it is stated in the game that Alduin is not at full power, not during the merethic era, and not during the fourth era. It never is specified how powerful Alduin is during the events of Skyrim.
(SIDE NOTE: In general it never really is specified what Alduin really is. Paarthurnax states that he is “the firstborn of Akatosh”, yet on the Nordic pantheon Alduin IS Akatosh. I have read a theory that states that Akatosh has three forms: Auri-El, who is the beginning of time, Akatosh, who is the ‘current’ of time, and Alduin, who is the end of time (the altmeri, alessian and Nordic version of Akatosh respectively). However, Akatosh creates the LDB to destroy Alduin, so this implies they are completely different entities.)
Jyggalag is the daedric prince order, and is stated to be THE most powerful of the daedric princes. In fact, he became so powerful that all the other daedric princes had to work together to seal him away! )If this does not tell you how powerful he is, then I think you should just take an arrow to the knee and become a guard in the nice little hamlet of Rorikstead) The CoC battled Jyggalag at the climax of the greymarch and managed to defeat him and thereby releasing him from Sheogorath.
With Jyggalag it is the same as with Alduin. I do not think the CoC battled him at full power. Jyggalag just ‘came back into existence’ after an era of being Sheogorath, and he hadn’t regained his full power yet, which happens when he seats on the throne of madness.
This one is a wild card. Both Alduin and Jyggalag aren’t at full power when the protagonists defeat them. Alduin isn’t the world encompassing god he is, and Jyggalag has not regained his full power when the battle occurs. I’ll let everyone decide for themselves who was the more powerful foe here, my guess is that Jyggalag was the more powerful of the two at the time of battle, though Alduin has the potential to become more powerful.
(Besides, neither foe is actually beaten. Alduin’s soul is not absorbed and Jyggalag, being a daedra, cannot be killed.)
Now, onto the power of the protagonists themselves.
Both the LDB and the CoC are immensely powerful beings, and a battle between them would surely be something to behold, were it not that you would be blasted to pieces within seconds if you watched it.
Both are powerful in the regular sense of the word, being masters of the arcane and warriors without equal. Just to make this a little bit simpler, I’d say that they are equals in these aspects.
The last dragonborn has the ability to use the thu’um, an ability all dragonborn possess and are naturally gifted with. Given enough time he would become stronger than even the likes of Jurgen Windcaller and Miraak. In the lore the thu’um is noted to be able to move mountains and level cities, which are feats managed by mere mortals. Just imagine what the LDB would be able to do when practicing under the guidance of Herma-Mora for a few thousand years. In addition to this he has read multiple black books, and probably gained a lot of power from that. In the lore it is yet unknown whether the LDB became a vampire or not, but if he did, that would be a serious power boost as well.
The Champion of Cyrodiil is blessed by all nine divines, the enforcer of the will of the gods on Tamriel and wears the legendary armor of the crusader, created by the divines to be near indestructible. He is the saviour of Bruma, and quite frankly, the whole of Tamriel. Of course, we should surely not forget that aside from being blessed by the gods, the Hero of Kvatch IS in fact a god.
(For the people who doubt this: the Hero is able to sit on Sheogorath’s throne, which only Sheo himself can do, Haskill and even Jyggalag himself acknowledge you as being the new god of Madness and state that “[the Hero] will grown into his station”. By the time of Skyrim, the Hero is gone, but still is there. The Sheogorath you meet in ‘the Mind of Madness’ is in fact the CoC, seeing as he references events that happened during the crisis and stat that “[Sheogorath] was there that whole sordid affair” but due to him having mantled Sheogorath, one cannot be told from the other, they have become the same being).
Not only is the CoC a daedric prince, but he is (one of) the most powerful daedric princes. When Jyggalag was turned into Sheogorath, his realm of order changed with him. Seeing as a daedric prince is litteraly his realm Sheogorath has the largest realm of all. Consequently he is the most powerful of the princes (although this is up for debate). At the very least least he has been noted to be able to outsmart other princes, so there’s that.
On the other side I have read theories that the LDB is in fact a Shezzarine, a living embodiment of Lorkhan. Although I have not researched this topic myself, I think it is not really relevant to this debate overall, at least not in favor of the LDB. This is because Lorkhan was killed by Trinimac at the end of the dawn era. Trinimac was later devoured by Boethiah and became the daedric prince of the Ostracized: Malacath. Malacath is certainly less powerful than Jyggalag and most likely less powerful (or at the very least, equal) compard to Sheogorath.
It may sound that I am favoring the CoC a little (or quite a lot maybe) to some of you, but note that this is just my humble, 2000 word long opinion and it is your right to disagree with everything I’m saying, and hey, that’s what a forum is for!
Now we finally get to the conclusion of this post, the outcome of the battle, the cheese on the cake.
The LDB and CoC are both immensely powerful, and a battle between them would be remembered through the ages. Crushing blow would be answered with shattering spell. If the battle between Vahlok and Miraak tore solstheim from Tamriel, I’d imagine that a battle between these two will have Tamriel join Yokuda on the bottom of the ocean (maybe living in Atmora isn’t so bad after all).
The winner of this battle would, in my opinion, depend on just one factor. What version of the Champion fights this battle. If we would take the mortal version of the Hero, the LDB would absolutely stomp, even if we disregard the fact that he would be susceptible to the bend will shout. The hero would give him a good fight, but eventually to no avail.
If we look at this from the moment the CoC became Sheogorath (or the power he had after he had fully mantled Sheogorath), we have a whole other situation. Clavicus Vile is noted to say that the LDB is about half as powerful as him. If we take into account that the LDB absorbed the soul of Miraak after that, I think he would definitely be able to defeat an aspect of Sheogorath on Mundus. However, I do not think that the LDB would be able to defeat Sheogorath’s true form (even if we forget the fact that a daedric prince literally cannot die). If we were to say that the LDB is on par with Clavicus Vile, Sheo would still beat him, same goes for when he is a Shezzarine. Though most likely the power difference would be even greater and the battle would be very one-sided.
Thus, I declare the Champion of Cyrodiil the ultimate victor of this battle. Feel free to state your opinion down below and remember: this is just a fan’s opinion. I feel this is a very educated guess, but then again, I don’t get to the cloud district very often, so what do I know?
P.S. Sorry for the long post, I have nothing to do with my life so please don’t judge.
