Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Empire knows it was set up, yet still went on to deal with the rebels anyways. Maybe it means that both the Empire and Stormcloaks know who the real enemy is, but CHOOSE to deal with their petty issues before dealing with the Altmeri "scumbags" Dominion.

The Empire had to, they weren't going to leave Skyrim at the mercy of Ulfric Stormcloak. Doing so would weaken Imperial authority throughout the Empire, also the Legions on the border are from the provinces too. If Skyrim became independent, High Rock could follow. What's to say the Legionnaires from those provinces on the border would stay there? There could be many who decide they're no longer going to fight just for Cyrodiil and return home. That would weaken the Imperial army, leaving Cyrodiil at the mercy of three Dominion provinces.

Saying the Empire is at fault for dealing with rebellion is stupid. Their hand was forced to go deal with Ulfric Stormcloak, or risk losing one of their provinces. You don't ignore open rebellion in your lands, nor do you wage a war while you have a civil war raging. Common sense for dealing with internal issues, before you even deal with issues beyond your borders.

The rebellion was nearly ended rather quickly, the Empire never intended for a long drawn out conflict. Alduin's arrival had forced the Empire to divert more resources and good soldiers.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
DrunkenMage: Sorry, were you saying something? I was too busy coming up with characters and RPs for those characters to read any of your posts.

I can send some character ideas I came up with as evidence that I am honest, if you want proof.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
DrunkenMage: Sorry, were you saying something? I was too busy coming up with characters and RPs for those characters to read any of your posts.

I can send some character ideas I came up with as evidence that I am honest, if you want proof.

:rolleyes:


I will take that as a no. too bad, I had a good idea for a redguard Nightblade who was serviced to the royal family of Daggerfall.

You are really just plain boring, so I never really payed attention to your posts.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
DrunkenMage: Sorry, were you saying something? I was too busy coming up with characters and RPs for those characters to read any of your posts.

I can send some character ideas I came up with as evidence that I am honest, if you want proof.

:rolleyes:


I will take that as a no. too bad, I had a good idea for a redguard Nightblade who was serviced to the royal family of Daggerfall.

You are really just plain boring, so I never really payed attention to your posts.

I could tell that. The only reason I can justify your idiotic responses where you keep repeating arguments is by accepting that you don't read posts. You just don't. You just use the same argument, write it a bit different, and hit the 'post reply' button.
The only person who is boring here, is you. Because instead of putting effort into a post you recycle the same bs everytime. Over and over again.

A person types a decent post against you, and then out of nowhere you say this? What reason do you have to be rude out of nowhere? Stop acting like a child. Have a civilized debate or leave. If you are going to call people boring and act all tough because you don't read posts, the only person who comes off bad is you.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
The door that was left open when Ulfric killed Torygg, starting the Civil War?

It is like a game of chess. You use the pawns (in this case, the Stormcloaks) to distract the enemy (Empire) and set up your true plan in secret. Genius really.

I never understand why you quote a person and disagree with them, and then post something that basically is the thing they were saying before.
That is exactly what the dossier says and exactly what the Dominion is after. Hence why the Empire is not happy with this rebellion. Their plan is not that secret as you think, you know. The Empire knows what the Thalmor are after. They know that the Stormcloaks are basically a little gift to the Dominion. Ulfric might not realize he is helping the Thalmor by weakening the Empire, but that is certainly what is happening at the moment.

I don't get the 'door that was left open' stuff you are saying, though. Maybe you explained that in a previous post and I didn't read it.


agreed. But you might want want to think about it though. All we know of what the Thalmor want is what we know. We do not get the full thing about them, and they tell us what we want, and maybe write what they want so people poking around do not get the full plot/goal. Maybe only the leaders back in summerset Isles know of what the Thalmor really want, and do not tell the field agents.

And the 'door that was left open' I am talking about is the Civil War. The Thalmor left it open by doing what they did that led to the Civil War, and the Empire knows it was set up, yet still went on to deal with the rebels anyways. Maybe it means that both the Empire and Stormcloaks know who the real enemy is, but CHOOSE to deal with their petty issues before dealing with the Altmeri "scumbags" Dominion.

Blaming the Empire for dealing with the rebels is like putting the blame for WW2 on the allies because they dealt with the Nazis. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. If people who rather look the other way start to blame the ones who take up arms, our world will turn into a plopshole.

If you are going to wait with picking sides until you know 100% of your enemies plans, then you will always be a neutral. You will never know everything. Some things are likely to happen - some are not. Based on that, people make decisions. Sometimes the wrong ones. That is what war is like. Basically, what life is like. You never know what the future holds...
 

Snake-Brother282

The Saxhleel Slayer
DrunkenMage: Sorry, were you saying something? I was too busy coming up with characters and RPs for those characters to read any of your posts.

I can send some character ideas I came up with as evidence that I am honest, if you want proof.

Lol, wow. Where'd that come from? I don't understand why you've been here for so long, or why you keep coming back if you refuse to even read the posts of the ppl you're talking to? If you read them you might learn enough to build an actual argument instead of putting your foot in your mouth every time you open it. Having to read your nonsense is the only boring aspect of this thread. Only a fool willingly embraces ignorance, it is cowardly to refuse information based on the fear that it challenges your beliefs.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest


I will take that as a no. too bad, I had a good idea for a redguard Nightblade who was serviced to the royal family of Daggerfall.

You are really just plain boring, so I never really payed attention to your posts.

I could tell that. The only reason I can justify your idiotic responses where you keep repeating arguments is by accepting that you don't read posts. You just don't. You just use the same argument, write it a bit different, and hit the 'post reply' button.
The only person who is boring here, is you. Because instead of putting effort into a post you recycle the same bs everytime. Over and over again.

A person types a decent post against you, and then out of nowhere you say this? What reason do you have to be rude out of nowhere? Stop acting like a child. Have a civilized debate or leave. If you are going to call people boring and act all tough because you don't read posts, the only person who comes off bad is you.


Why should I bother reading posts on lore when I play the game in-character in the first place, and never use my own opinions for anything in this game?

Either you all can accept that I play the game in-character and never use the lore because I am not a lore-junkie, or you can keep trying to do the impossible. your choice.
 

Lord of Blood

High King Ulfric
Ulfric is a bloody war hero not a damn criminal. He led his army in and took back the Reach for the Nords and all he asked for in return was that Talos worship be restored. But that weak milk drinker Jarl Igmund got scared and bent his knee to the Thalmor. It was this breach of trust that led to the Stormcloak Rebellion. You hear the real reason why Ulfric fights when he is in a private conversation with Galmar when you first meet him:

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

And when you complete the liberation of Skyrim:

Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future! A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim!"

Ulfric is not just in this for himself. He will not have elves dictate the fate of men. He is an operative for the Thalmor? Did you not see his hostile reaction towards having Elenwen at the truce, the woman who tortured him. If Ulfric have up anything to the thalmor it's because they had to torture him to get it. He didn't give it up willingly. Torrygg was weak, Ulfric killed him as an example. How can the high king protect Skyrim when he can't even protect himself. Ulfric challenged him in the traditional Nord way and Torrygg accepted. Ulfric shouted him to the floor and drove his blade through him. Fair combat, true Torrygg didn't stand a chance but that was the point. He was weak. The empire surrendering to the Aldmeri Dominion was pathetic. The Dominion was just as weak and exhausted as the Empire was. Their failed 5 year campaign to conquer Hammerfell proved that. Shout out to the Redguard for refusing the terms of the treaty and fighting for their land. The Thalmor withdrew in defeat, Hammerfell did this alone without the help of a weak and dying empire. Nobody should tell anyone who they can and cannot worship, or how they live their lives.

There should be no doubt that Ulfric cares about his fellow Nords and Skyrim. But when it comes to other races I will admit he doesn't seem to care to much about them. I think he is so focused on his people and their freedom that other races don't really matter to him. Skyrim is the home of the Nords and should be ruled by Nords. Just like China is home to the Chinese and should be ruled by them. However everyone deserves the same rights and freedoms. Brunwulf said anytime Bandits attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the alarm and send the men. Further proof that he cares about his people. But if it's other races, he don't seem to care and that's the only real flaw I see. How he allows the Dark Elves to live is inexcusable. Yes there is a war going on and that requires his full attention but what's wrong with at least listening to them for 5 minutes about their plight. So yes I have a problem with that. Him keeping the Argonians outside is justifiable however. We all know there is bad blood between the Argonians and the Dunmer. Argonians were slaves to the Dunmer for centuries. Not to mention the Argonians took advantage of the eruption of Red Mountain and conquered a good part of Morrowind. Keeping them outside is what's best for now. Even if Brunwulf becomes Jarl he says this. Also Ulfric is just badass. I don't believe Ulfric is a racist I just think he so focused on the Nords and their freedom that he is blind to the plight of others. The cause of the Stormcloaks are just. There are a number of them who are bigoted and racist and ignorant. Hating and fearing what they do not understand. But I don't like letting some bad apples spoil the whole bunch. The Gray-Manes for instance show no signs of racism they just want to live their lives the way they want to, follow their own laws and traditions. Neither side is perfect and both have their flaws. But I like the ideals the Stormcloaks fight for and even if Ulfric is a power hungry egomaniac he is the enemy I know, not some emperor down south who know nothing about our way of life and doesn't even live in Skyrim. My two cents for what it's worth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Lord of Blood: I would not bother, unless you support the Empire with lore, because these people are lore-junkie imperial loves who only see Empire red.

I can see both ways on the duel. I think Ulfric did what he thought was right, going by what Stentor said and the 'speak on independence just shy of treason' line. I also think the Imperials are right that he is a traitor and potentially a murderer. The Dunmer and Argonian situations are more tricky, but it is possible that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are 'racist' towards them because their racial members in windhelm dislike them, and complain about the conditions they have. I am no expert on this, but isn't a thing in the setting of the game, or what time it is based on, established as 'ruler has final say on everything?' also I am of the mind that 'you complain about what you have, and ask for more than the boss feels you need? You deserve even less than what you have right now' even if you worked for it.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
I will take that as a no. too bad, I had a good idea for a redguard Nightblade who was serviced to the royal family of Daggerfall.

You are really just plain boring, so I never really payed attention to your posts.

I could tell that. The only reason I can justify your idiotic responses where you keep repeating arguments is by accepting that you don't read posts. You just don't. You just use the same argument, write it a bit different, and hit the 'post reply' button.
The only person who is boring here, is you. Because instead of putting effort into a post you recycle the same bs everytime. Over and over again.

A person types a decent post against you, and then out of nowhere you say this? What reason do you have to be rude out of nowhere? Stop acting like a child. Have a civilized debate or leave. If you are going to call people boring and act all tough because you don't read posts, the only person who comes off bad is you.


Why should I bother reading posts on lore when I play the game in-character in the first place, and never use my own opinions for anything in this game?

Either you all can accept that I play the game in-character and never use the lore because I am not a lore-junkie, or you can keep trying to do the impossible. your choice.

Everyone already accepted that. From the very first day you stated your opinion, people didn't have an issue with it. But then you started the debate. You started quoting people, which caused them to quote you back. And then you acted like the victim, like no one respects your opinion. You seem to think you have a monopoly on responding to people. Like you are someone who is entitled to criticizing others but can't be criticized himself. Who the hell do you think you are?

You're a troll and a waste of time. Remember that conversation where you said people who don't even read posts and ignore facts are not worth your time? Well, you're one of them. You are ignorant and refuse to learn. You just spam the thread with your opinion and expect EVERYONE to understand it, yet you keep questioning other opinions and reply to every single fluffing post people write. Even when I am not in a debate with you, you reply to me. You interrupt me in conversations with Snake Brother, NENALATA, Mage - everyone. But God, when someone quotes you, you play the victim card.

I have read Mage's post. It didn't contain personal attacks, he didn't write anything provocative, he wasn't rude. It didn't contain anything that could possibly set you off. You just wrote an asshole response out of nowhere, without any reason.You acted like an 8 year old who didn't get his candy and wrote a condescending reply that was straight out mean and disrespectful.

You seem to forget that people try to teach you something here. They share their knowledge and try to help you out by answering your questions or providing you with extra information when needed. Then you say something like: 'you're boring, I never read your posts anyway'.

Sven managed to derail the thread for 5 pages. He acted like a butthurt 6 year old girl and managed to bother everyone with his rude posts that were not only racist, but also arrogant and offending. I ran out of patience a while ago, and I don't feel like going through this again. So I am going to politely ask you to either act like an adult or leave.
I don't even understand why you are here. Maybe you should start a 'Me & My Unquestionable Opinion' roleplay. Rules: - I will attack your opinion - You are not allowed to attack mine - I don't read posts, and just recycle arguments that are already proven wrong - If I feel like it, I am going to offend you, even if you didn't give me a reason for it - Facts are for losers.

You don't want to be questioned. You don't want people to quote you on your opinion, nor do you read posts. Then what the hell is the point of participating in a debate? The only thing you care about, is your view and what you think.

There is nothing wrong with your opinion. But what is wrong, is that you are being rude out of nowhere to a person who did not deserve that. If you can't act mature, then maybe you should just leave. People here enjoy a civilized debate with people who respect each other.
 

Lord of Blood

High King Ulfric
J

Jeremius

Guest
I could tell that. The only reason I can justify your idiotic responses where you keep repeating arguments is by accepting that you don't read posts. You just don't. You just use the same argument, write it a bit different, and hit the 'post reply' button.
The only person who is boring here, is you. Because instead of putting effort into a post you recycle the same bs everytime. Over and over again.

A person types a decent post against you, and then out of nowhere you say this? What reason do you have to be rude out of nowhere? Stop acting like a child. Have a civilized debate or leave. If you are going to call people boring and act all tough because you don't read posts, the only person who comes off bad is you.


Why should I bother reading posts on lore when I play the game in-character in the first place, and never use my own opinions for anything in this game?

Either you all can accept that I play the game in-character and never use the lore because I am not a lore-junkie, or you can keep trying to do the impossible. your choice.

Everyone already accepted that. From the very first day you stated your opinion, people didn't have an issue with it. But then you started the debate. You started quoting people, which caused them to quote you back. And then you acted like the victim, like no one respects your opinion. You seem to think you have a monopoly on responding to people. Like you are someone who is entitled to criticizing others but can't be criticized himself. Who the hell do you think you are?

You're a troll and a waste of time. Remember that conversation where you said people who don't even read posts and ignore facts are not worth your time? Well, you're one of them. You are ignorant and refuse to learn. You just spam the thread with your opinion and expect EVERYONE to understand it, yet you keep questioning other opinions and reply to every single fluffing post people write. Even when I am not in a debate with you, you reply to me. You interrupt me in conversations with Snake Brother, NENALATA, Mage - everyone. But God, when someone quotes you, you play the victim card.

I have read Mage's post. It didn't contain personal attacks, he didn't write anything provocative, he wasn't rude. It didn't contain anything that could possibly set you off. You just wrote an asshole response out of nowhere, without any reason.You acted like an 8 year old who didn't get his candy and wrote a condescending reply that was straight out mean and disrespectful.

You seem to forget that people try to teach you something here. They share their knowledge and try to help you out by answering your questions or providing you with extra information when needed. Then you say something like: 'you're boring, I never read your posts anyway'.

Sven managed to derail the thread for 5 pages. He acted like a butthurt 6 year old girl and managed to bother everyone with his rude posts that were not only racist, but also arrogant and offending. I ran out of patience a while ago, and I don't feel like going through this again. So I am going to politely ask you to either act like an adult or leave.
I don't even understand why you are here. Maybe you should start a 'Me & My Unquestionable Opinion' roleplay. Rules: - I will attack your opinion - You are not allowed to attack mine - I don't read posts, and just recycle arguments that are already proven wrong - If I feel like it, I am going to offend you, even if you didn't give me a reason for it - Facts are for loser.

You don't want to be questioned. You don't want people to quote you on your opinion, nor do you read posts. Then what the hell is the point of participating in a debate? The only thing you care about, is your view and what you think.

There is nothing wrong with your opinion. But what is wrong, is that you are being rude out of nowhere to a person who did not deserve that. If you can't act mature, then maybe you should just leave. People here enjoy a civilized debate with people who respect each other.


What I have a problem with, is that people post the same lore garbage over and over again, using different wording. IF I wanted to read and learn and rewrite everything to support the empire, I would go back and read the thread. I do not, and I don't want the same pieces of lore rehashed over and over again. I have read all that before, and do not need it thrown back in my face every single time someone quotes me on anything.

Understand? Post something new or let this thread go to the grave.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Ulfric is a bloody war hero not a damn criminal. He led his army in and took back the Reach for the Nords and all he asked for in return was that Talos worship be restored. But that weak milk drinker Jarl Igmund got scared and bent his knee to the Thalmor. It was this breach of trust that led to the Stormcloak Rebellion. You hear the real reason why Ulfric fights when he is in a private conversation with Galmar when you first meet him:

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

And when you complete the liberation of Skyrim:

Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future! A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim!"

Ulfric is not just in this for himself. He will not have elves dictate the fate of men. He is an operative for the Thalmor? Did you not see his hostile reaction towards having Elenwen at the truce, the woman who tortured him. If Ulfric have up anything to the thalmor it's because they had to torture him to get it. He didn't give it up willingly. Torrygg was weak, Ulfric killed him as an example. How can the high king protect Skyrim when he can't even protect himself. Ulfric challenged him in the traditional Nord way and Torrygg accepted. Ulfric shouted him to the floor and drove his blade through him. Fair combat, true Torrygg didn't stand a chance but that was the point. He was weak. The empire surrendering to the Aldmeri Dominion was pathetic. The Dominion was just as weak and exhausted as the Empire was. Their failed 5 year campaign to conquer Hammerfell proved that. Shout out to the Redguard for refusing the terms of the treaty and fighting for their land. The Thalmor withdrew in defeat, Hammerfell did this alone without the help of a weak and dying empire. Nobody should tell anyone who they can and cannot worship, or how they live their lives.

There should be no doubt that Ulfric cares about his fellow Nords and Skyrim. But when it comes to other races I will admit he doesn't seem to care to much about them. I think he is so focused on his people and their freedom that other races don't really matter to him. Skyrim is the home of the Nords and should be ruled by Nords. Just like China is home to the Chinese and should be ruled by them. However everyone deserves the same rights and freedoms. Brunwulf said anytime Bandits attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the alarm and send the men. Further proof that he cares about his people. But if it's other races, he don't seem to care and that's the only real flaw I see. How he allows the Dark Elves to live is inexcusable. Yes there is a war going on and that requires his full attention but what's wrong with at least listening to them for 5 minutes about their plight. So yes I have a problem with that. Him keeping the Argonians outside is justifiable however. We all know there is bad blood between the Argonians and the Dunmer. Argonians were slaves to the Dunmer for centuries. Not to mention the Argonians took advantage of the eruption of Red Mountain and conquered a good part of Morrowind. Keeping them outside is what's best for now. Even if Brunwulf becomes Jarl he says this. Also Ulfric is just badass. I don't believe Ulfric is a racist I just think he so focused on the Nords and their freedom that he is blind to the plight of others. The cause of the Stormcloaks are just. There are a number of them who are bigoted and racist and ignorant. Hating and fearing what they do not understand. But I don't like letting some bad apples spoil the whole bunch. The Gray-Manes for instance show no signs of racism they just want to live their lives the way they want to, follow their own laws and traditions. Neither side is perfect and both have their flaws. But I like the ideals the Stormcloaks fight for and even if Ulfric is a power hungry egomaniac he is the enemy I know, not some emperor down south who know nothing about our way of life and doesn't even live in Skyrim. My two cents for what it's worth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think Ulfric knows he is helping the Thalmor. He probably really thinks what he is doing is the very best for Skyrim. But the Thalmor dossier proves different. Here, you might want to take a look at this:

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval
Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran
Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.
Source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

The Thalmor love the Rebellion. To them, it is a faction that weakens the Empire in its attempt to regain strength. It increases their chance at victory, because now the Empire has to fight the Stormcloaks and the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfric probably isn't aware of that, but sadly that is the way it is going. Do you remember the Thalmor agents who were there during the execution? They were trying to save Ulfric. His death would mean the Empire could focus on the Thalmor again, which they didn't want.

You have to understand no one liked the White Gold Concordat. Even the Empire didn't want to ban Talos worship. But they had two choices: either fighting until the last soldier would get crushed, or signing a temporary peace treaty. The Aldmeri Dominion was much stronger than them. They couldn't possibly win, so carrying on meant death. The Thalmor would win the war and wipe the Empire off of the face of Nirn. The last banner against being completely invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion, would disappear. Because you know what happens when you lose a war? You lose everything. You are completely dependent on the mercy of your enemy because you don't have the strength to go against them anymore.

the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
Source: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

If you sign a peace treaty, that gives you time to rebuild your forces. You can regain strength and make sure you're ready for the next round. And that is what the Empire is doing, and they are almost ready. At the moment you start the game, the Legion is already at the Aldmeri Dominion's border - ready to continue the fight. And you can choose: are you going to get your independence, weaken the Empire and thus strengthen the Dominion, standing on your own as a province? Is Ulfric's rebellion, which only exists within the Skyrim border, your big weapon against the Elves? If even the Empire had trouble defeating them, then why would Skyrim be able to do it alone?
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Lord of Blood: I would not bother, unless you support the Empire with lore, because these people are lore-junkie imperial loves who only see Empire red.

If you hate it so much, leave.

I really don't see why you even bother replying anymore.


Did I step into something?

No, you didn't. We were having a debate, and out of nowhere Jeremius offended someone. He said he wasn't even going to read his post and that person was boring. Usually is not like that. I have no idea why he is acting this way, but I am disappointed.
But the thread is not about drama like this. :) Welcome to the forums.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
What I have a problem with, is that people post the same lore garbage over and over again, using different wording. IF I wanted to read and learn and rewrite everything to support the empire, I would go back and read the thread. I do not, and I don't want the same pieces of lore rehashed over and over again. I have read all that before, and do not need it thrown back in my face every single time someone quotes me on anything.

Understand? Post something new or let this thread go to the grave.

Understand? Lol. Who do you think you are? You just take an argument against you and re-use it against somebody else. And how would you know what people write? You don't read posts anyway?
People keep repeating their arguments because you keep repeating yours. They figured you didn't understand it, so they try to explain it to you once more.

No one drags you to this thread. No one forces you to be here. You keep returning. Did it ever occur to you that you are usually the person who starts the debate? I quoted Snake-Brother, and you replied to me, using a chess analogy to explain your theory. And then you say we keep replying to you? Honestly, if you leave this place today I won't do a single attempt to get you back. I could not care less. But quote me and I will quote you.

Stop saying the thread should just stop. If you don't want to participate, stop participating. But give at least the people who want to participate the choice to do so.
 
Ulfric is a bloody war hero not a damn criminal. He led his army in and took back the Reach for the Nords and all he asked for in return was that Talos worship be restored. But that weak milk drinker Jarl Igmund got scared and bent his knee to the Thalmor. It was this breach of trust that led to the Stormcloak Rebellion. You hear the real reason why Ulfric fights when he is in a private conversation with Galmar when you first meet him:

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

And when you complete the liberation of Skyrim:

Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future! A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim!"

Ulfric is not just in this for himself. He will not have elves dictate the fate of men. He is an operative for the Thalmor? Did you not see his hostile reaction towards having Elenwen at the truce, the woman who tortured him. If Ulfric have up anything to the thalmor it's because they had to torture him to get it. He didn't give it up willingly. Torrygg was weak, Ulfric killed him as an example. How can the high king protect Skyrim when he can't even protect himself. Ulfric challenged him in the traditional Nord way and Torrygg accepted. Ulfric shouted him to the floor and drove his blade through him. Fair combat, true Torrygg didn't stand a chance but that was the point. He was weak. The empire surrendering to the Aldmeri Dominion was pathetic. The Dominion was just as weak and exhausted as the Empire was. Their failed 5 year campaign to conquer Hammerfell proved that. Shout out to the Redguard for refusing the terms of the treaty and fighting for their land. The Thalmor withdrew in defeat, Hammerfell did this alone without the help of a weak and dying empire. Nobody should tell anyone who they can and cannot worship, or how they live their lives.

There should be no doubt that Ulfric cares about his fellow Nords and Skyrim. But when it comes to other races I will admit he doesn't seem to care to much about them. I think he is so focused on his people and their freedom that other races don't really matter to him. Skyrim is the home of the Nords and should be ruled by Nords. Just like China is home to the Chinese and should be ruled by them. However everyone deserves the same rights and freedoms. Brunwulf said anytime Bandits attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the alarm and send the men. Further proof that he cares about his people. But if it's other races, he don't seem to care and that's the only real flaw I see. How he allows the Dark Elves to live is inexcusable. Yes there is a war going on and that requires his full attention but what's wrong with at least listening to them for 5 minutes about their plight. So yes I have a problem with that. Him keeping the Argonians outside is justifiable however. We all know there is bad blood between the Argonians and the Dunmer. Argonians were slaves to the Dunmer for centuries. Not to mention the Argonians took advantage of the eruption of Red Mountain and conquered a good part of Morrowind. Keeping them outside is what's best for now. Even if Brunwulf becomes Jarl he says this. Also Ulfric is just badass. I don't believe Ulfric is a racist I just think he so focused on the Nords and their freedom that he is blind to the plight of others. The cause of the Stormcloaks are just. There are a number of them who are bigoted and racist and ignorant. Hating and fearing what they do not understand. But I don't like letting some bad apples spoil the whole bunch. The Gray-Manes for instance show no signs of racism they just want to live their lives the way they want to, follow their own laws and traditions. Neither side is perfect and both have their flaws. But I like the ideals the Stormcloaks fight for and even if Ulfric is a power hungry egomaniac he is the enemy I know, not some emperor down south who know nothing about our way of life and doesn't even live in Skyrim. My two cents for what it's worth.


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I don't think Ulfric knows he is helping the Thalmor. He probably really thinks what he is doing is the very best for Skyrim. But the Thalmor dossier proves different. Here, you might want to take a look at this:

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval
Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran
Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.
Source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

The Thalmor love the Rebellion. To them, it is a faction that weakens the Empire in its attempt to regain strength. It increases their chance at victory, because now the Empire has to fight the Stormcloaks and the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfric probably isn't aware of that, but sadly that is the way it is going. Do you remember the Thalmor agents who were there during the execution? They were trying to save Ulfric. His death would mean the Empire could focus on the Thalmor again, which they didn't want.

You have to understand no one liked the White Gold Concordat. Even the Empire didn't want to ban Talos worship. But they had two choices: either fighting until the last soldier would get crushed, or signing a temporary peace treaty. The Aldmeri Dominion was much stronger than them. They couldn't possibly win, so carrying on meant death. The Thalmor would win the war and wipe the Empire off of the face of Nirn. The last banner against being completely invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion, would disappear. Because you know what happens when you lose a war? You lose everything. You are completely dependent on the mercy of your enemy because you don't have the strength to go against them anymore.

the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
Source: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

If you sign a peace treaty, that gives you time to rebuild your forces. You can regain strength and make sure you're ready for the next round. And that is what the Empire is doing, and they are almost ready. At the moment you start the game, the Legion is already at the Aldmeri Dominion's border - ready to continue the fight. And you can choose: are you going to get your independence, weaken the Empire and thus strengthen the Dominion, standing on your own as a province? Is Ulfric's rebellion, which only exists within the Skyrim border, your big weapon against the Elves? If even the Empire had trouble defeating them, then why would Skyrim be able to do it alone?



You used lore to clearly and legitimately disprove a Stormcloak argument. That must mean that your argument "is lore-garbage" and that you are some "biased lore-junkie."
 

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