Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I stand by what I said and there's really no way to disprove the fact that the Thalmor weren't all chased out of Cyrodil immediately following Red Ring. Or that the new border with the Dominion isn't now at the Imperial city. The treaty of Stros M'Kai dictated a withdrawal of all Dominion troops but not the WGC. Least as far as I can tell. My interpretation is not far-fetched, as it does not explicitly say that the treaty required the Thlamor to leave or that Cyrodil got it's Southern cities back. My interpretation is that the primary army was destroyed and then the Emperor waited a month to make sure Naarifin couldn't escape when the treaty was signed. Says nothing about the southern cities being liberated or going back to the Empire.

I mean, by these Imperials very standards if it doesn't say something explicitly in Lore then you don't waste another thought ~ you just auto dismiss it. Well, it doesn't say they didn't either, just that the WGC was signed at the end of that Battle and terms were similar to the WGC. Which said nothing about Cyrodil, so, if it said nothing about Cyrodil and the Thalmor were still holding those cities at the end of the war... then there's no reason whatsoever to compel the Thalmor to just turn over the cities in Cyrodil they controlled. If anything, the fact that the Imperial army was so badly weakened and that Titus Mede II surrendered so quickly tells me the Emperor knew he would lose a war of attrition and didn't have the forces to Siege the (4) cities the Thalmor still held even after Red Ring (Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil, Leyawin). Speaking of which, it also never says much about Chorrol(for all we know they could be a neutral state), only that the Imperials gathered near there.

Cicero's journal also talks about how the Listener? I think... was killed by fire balls in the tomb of the night mother and that cities in Cyrodil were crumbling due to violence. Could very well be the Empire is not longer in control of Bravil and those were Thalmor Mages invading the tomb.

In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated.
Lord Naarifin was kept alive for thirty-three days, hanging from the White-Gold tower.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil

Seems to mention Cyrodiil quite a bit. Those cities are part of Cyrodiil.

The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers.

Just because magic is mentioned, doesn't mean it is Thalmor. Cyrodiil isn't Skyrim where magic is shunned. Cities erupted into violence due to weakened Imperial authority, the Empire recovering from warfare trying to restore peace and order. Much of the Empire was lawless for four years, Wayrest was also lost in High Rock and Markarth in Skyrim.

There were two Thalmor armies, one in Cyrodill and one in Hammerfell. The main Aldmeri Dominion army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, Cyrodiil being the large landmass in the middle of Tamriel. Not once in any sources you mention (Which are few and far between, and they don't support what you say) that the Thalmor control most of Cyrodiil.

Lore tells us that the Thalmor army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed.

Completely, totally; utterly.

Destroyed, end the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.

Lore doesn't say "But the Thalmor held this and this after they were completely destroyed in Cyrodiil because by completely destroyed in Cyrodiil they don't actually mean Cyrodiil but only the small fraction in one section."
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion
by Legate Justianus Quintius

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War


Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil and Leyawin were captured by the Dominion during the Great War...


The Emperor's decision to withdrawal from the Imperial city was vindicated because the Main Dominion Army in Cyrodil was Destroyed at Red Ring, THE MAIN ARMY. Units dispatched from Skingrad and Bravil, quite obviously were never apart of the Main Army...

The White-Gold Concordat and the End of the War
Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength. The two most controversial terms of the Concordat were the banning of the worship of Talos and the cession of a large section of southern Hammerfell (most of what was already occupied by Aldmeri forces). Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier. However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

It also says, the Empire was not strong enough to continue the war against the Dominion...



Lord Naarifin's MAIN FORCE took IC after conquering Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil and Leyawin...

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself. One army drove north to completely surround the city, while Lord Naarifin's main force attacked the walls from the south, east, and west. The Emperor's decision to fight his way out of the city rather than make a last stand was a bold one. No general dared advise him to abandon the capital, but Titus II was proven right in the end.

So the Dominion had MORE THAN just one Main Force in Cyrodil, re-enforced from South Cyrodil.


Forces were dispatched from nearby Skingrad and Bravil to try and assist the Main Dominion Army in the Imperial City

On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.

The MAIN ARMY in IC was surrounded, however there were still other Dominion forces in Cyrodil, coming out of the Dominion-occupied cities to try and stop the Imperials from surrounding IC.


In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated.

Again, the MAIN ARMY. No where in this book or anywhere else in the game, does it say that the Entire Aldmeri Army in Cyrodil was defeated or forced to remove themselves from the cities they occupied in Cyrodil. As I have shown, the Dominion had other smaller armies in Cyrodil, centered around the cities. Re-enforcements if you will, which couldn't have all been killed or the cities sieged because the Empire had nothing left to send. So, the Empire couldn't do anything about Southern Cyrodil or the cities the Thalmor occupied in Cyrodil. The White Gold Concordant did not include the Aldmeri withdrawing from their occupied lands in Cyrodil, unlike was the case in Hammerfell.


The Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was a treaty signed in 4E 180 between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Redguards of Hammerfell. It marked the end of a decade-long attempt by the Dominion to conquer the region after both sides had reached a stalemate. The conditions of the treaty compelled the Dominion to withdraw all of its military forces from Hammerfell.
Critics of Emperor Titus Mede II's acquiescence to the White-Gold Concordat that ended the Great War five years earlier took the Redguards' successful resistance as proof that the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor could have been defeated. Hammerfell's relations with the Empire remained strained after the treaty despite their mutual opposition to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Redguards believed that they had been betrayed when Titus II first agreed to the White-Gold Concordat, which stipulated that a significant portion of Hammerfell be ceded to the Dominion, then renounced Hammerfell as an Imperial province when it protested the Concordat's terms. Following the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai, Hammerfell was left an independent yet severely diminished nation.


So the Empire was defeated, the Thalmor lost their MAIN ARMY but nothing else. The only ones who can say they truly defeated us was the Redguard in Hammerfell. Not the Empire though.


Again, as I have been saying all this time, my case is backed by Lore and there is no contradiction against it. You can disagree all you like, can't disprove it.

The Dominion COULD HAVE BEEN defeated in Cyrodil, however Emperor Mede was satisfied with having the Imperial City back. That was it because 33 days later he ended the War by signing to most of the original terms of the WGC, however the Thalmor were never "defeated" in Cyrodil beyond the Destruction of their Main Army... with absolutely no mention of the Dominion leaving their occupied cities in Cyrodil. Unlike with Hammerfell. That was never included in the WGC and the reason is because Emperor Mede knew the Legion couldn't oust the Dominion from Southern Cyrodil even if it wanted to.


I believe we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. However, if I was still fighting for the Empire, this is something I would want to know. And as good a reason as any to try to keep Skyrim from seceding because we are on your Door Step Mfers. Also another good reason to replace Emperor Mede and start making some changes in Imperial Policy. Because Skyrim is all ya'll have left ~ Huh LITERALLY.

Now I meant what I said... got a bunch of B$ on this end to take care of, so see you guys later. And if my posts aren't very clear to you, try narrating in the voice of Morgan Freeman. That might help alot. If you need a visual aid, please contact your local Thalmor Embassy and we'll get you some Rose-Colored glasses shipped out within 7 - 10 business days.

Good Day! :)

ALL HAIL THE DOMINION
ALL HAIL THE SEPTIM EMPIRE
ALL HAIL THE MADGOD
 

Mighty Pecan Pie

The secret American
As for this...

"This thread has seen worse, it happens all the time. Just ask any Imperial supporter on these forums, they've all had a post dedicated to insults about them."

I find it the opposite. The imperials are the ones insulting others and not the way you state it. I'm not to point fingers but you claim to be Dagmar's apprentice, yet from what I've seen she's been a harsh and unforgiving person who batters the emotional security of others.

Now that that's out of the way...
To clarify something, I agree on the first part, it's not always direct insulting but more snarky little remarks.

However, I don't agree about Dagmar. But that's your opinion and I'm not gonna discuss that.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Emperor's decision to withdrawal from the Imperial city was vindicated because the Main Dominion Army in Cyrodil was Destroyed at Red Ring, THE MAIN ARMY. Units dispatched from Skingrad and Bravil, quite obviously were never apart of the Main Army...

The Aldmeri that counter attacked from Bravil & Skingrad were defeated, hence why the Legions were able to surround the Imperial City. Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks.

The main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil. There are two main armies, Naarifin's in Cyrodiil & Lady Arannelya's in Hammerfell.

If the Aldmeri Dominion controlled over two thirds of Cyrodiil, it would mention it in game. That isn't something left out of lore, lore can have minor holes and errors but nothing on the scale you're on about. Speculation and conjecture aren't valid arguments when debating historic events in TES.

It also says, the Empire was not strong enough to continue the war against the Dominion...

It also says the main Aldmeri Dominion army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. It isn't a very difficult concept.

Lord Naarifin's MAIN FORCE took IC after conquering Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil and Leyawin...

So the Dominion had MORE THAN just one Main Force in Cyrodil, re-enforced from South Cyrodil.

The only cities mentioned where Aldmeri counter attacked from were Bravil & Skingrad. It makes no mention they occupied every single city, they wouldn't need to. They had pushed the Legions to the walls of the Imperial City.

Lord Naarifin was reinforced by forces sent by Thalmor leadership. Reinforced, meaning they joined his army. Strengthening his army.

Forces were dispatched from nearby Skingrad and Bravil to try and assist the Main Dominion Army in the Imperial City

The MAIN ARMY in IC was surrounded, however there were still other Dominion forces in Cyrodil, coming out of the Dominion-occupied cities to try and stop the Imperials from surrounding IC.

They were defeated, how else would the Nord Legions have been able to help surround the Imperial City. They were attacked by the Aldmeri forces from Skingrad and Bravil, the Aldmeri lost.

Again, the MAIN ARMY. No where in this book or anywhere else in the game, does it say that the Entire Aldmeri Army in Cyrodil was defeated or forced to remove themselves from the cities they occupied in Cyrodil. As I have shown, the Dominion had other smaller armies in Cyrodil, centered around the cities. Re-enforcements if you will, which couldn't have all been killed or the cities sieged because the Empire had nothing left to send. So, the Empire couldn't do anything about Southern Cyrodil or the cities the Thalmor occupied in Cyrodil. The White Gold Concordant did not include the Aldmeri withdrawing from their occupied lands in Cyrodil, unlike was the case in Hammerfell.

No where, in game, in any lore source does it even state the Thalmor control majority of Cyrodiil. It makes no mention they occupied every city, it makes no mention they had any soldiers left. It says the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, it doesn't say the main army in the Imperial City, it says Cyrodiil.

It isn't that the Empire had nothing left, to fight the war they would need to invade Valenwood, Elsweyr, secure Hammerfell and then invade Summerset Isle.

If you have even a slight understanding of lore, you would see that isn't something they leave out. Something so major as that the Aldmeri Dominion's borders are now at the Imperial City.

Not to mention the majority of your evidence is pure speculation based on the fact that a Listener in Bravil was killed by mage fire and by saying "You can't prove otherwise". Lore doesn't work like that, especially surrounding a major event such as the Great War.

Again, as I have been saying all this time, my case is backed by Lore and there is no contradiction against it. You can disagree all you like, can't disprove it.

I have shown several contradictions, your evidence is mostly speculation and using quotes that don't fully support your claims. You can't not prove that the Aldmeri in Hammerfell were defeated by a bunch of goats, or that the Imperial City is secretly a UFO.

Your argument would only work if there were massive holes in lore, and that everyone forgot to mention that the Thalmor control majority of Cyrodiil. Things like that are not left out, especially if most of Cyrodiil was under Aldmeri Military occupation in 4E 201.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
To clarify something, I agree on the first part, it's not always direct insulting but more snarky little remarks.

Care to explain? For those this applies for, or if it is directed towards me. I of course do not mean to come across as insulting, if that is the case I will apologise to any I have offended.

If you could show me where it is insulting, it would be very appreciated. After two hundred and eighty or more pages of being in this thread, I guess I have become less patient. Though if you could show me a few examples, I am more than happy to remedy the situation. :)
 

Dradin

Tribunal Temple Acolyte
To Drunken Mage:

We had a brief encounter on the Is Talos Jesus? thread. She came across as a very harsh and linear person who lacks any strength in debate. It was her way or your a moron.

As for the "innocence" of the imperials, I have always found it a sheer majority of for lack of a better term, Marx's willful idiots, who instinctively side with an oppressive government. You can actually state facts a (pleasant) change.
I may not have been on this particular thread for long, however no Imperial can claim that they are innocent when it comes to mindless charging forward with only the words "sexist" and "racist" as armor from the facts of Stormcloak and Aldmeri supporters.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
To Drunken Mage:

We had a brief encounter on the Is Talos Jesus? thread. She came across as a very harsh and linear person who lacks any strength in debate. It was her way or your a moron.

Saying she lacks "any strength in debate" is something I can't agree with. Dagmar usually knows what she is talking about, especially when it comes down to Skyrim lore. :p I only know a few people who could keep up with her in debates. And that is not because she is "harsh" or "linear".
I do know that Dagmar often has a strong opinion and defends it with a passion. And I also understand not everyone likes that. But she definitely is a strong debater. And someone who bases arguments on facts - which is something I have respect for.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Sexist or mere racism? No.

More lack of strategy when it comes to the Stormcloaks. Ulfric and his Militia planning to take their army to the Thalmor. Unable to pass through Cyrodiil due to hostilities after the Civil War and the execution of General Tullius after his surrender would hinder any treaty with the Empire.

Ulfric had trouble fighting Auxiliary Legions, those who were locally recruited. Rikke refers to the Legions in Skyrim as Militia. Aldmeri wiped out three standard Legions during the Great War.

Unable to pass through Hammerfell due to the relations with the Redguards generally being negative, with the annexing of territory and slaughtering of their armies during the Imperial Simulacrum.

Ulfric viewing peace talks as a sign of weakness, caring more for song and self glory than the lives it takes to get there.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambition" - Tullius

One solution remains open, invading the Aldmeri Dominion by sea. Except with the Naval ability of the Thalmor matching that of the Imperial navy which is noted in the Great War there were naval battles. Reason to assume the Imperial navy lost, since the Aldmeri took the Imperial City. But that doesn't matter to Ulfric, he cares for songs and a story. A fact which irritates Galmar when he's toying with Tullius trying to create a dramatic moment.

Poor management. Without Imperial assistance, Windhelm is basically bankrupt, the stockpiles needed to even maintain the city are all gone. The only reason the Stormcloaks have "come so far, with so little" is due to Thalmor aid.

The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed. - Thalmor Dossier, Ulfric Stormcloak.

Farms in Skyrim as noted in the game, struggle in the harsh climate, which is why you come across a few self made rich Nobles who gained their fortune in farming. Reasonable to conclude that crops are in high demand.

The fertile lands of Cyrodiil would be a large supplier.

Skyrim has relied on the Empire for resources for the better part of an Era, going independent with a leader such as Ulfric who is far too proud to ask for aid, but tends to expect it. Such as the case with High Rock, when asking if there was any news regarding the Bretons.

"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire."

Noted to Ulfric's character, he isn't against summary execution on those who do not aid him. With us or against us, fairly oppressive ideology.

Racism or sexism, far more to it than that.

Stormcloak victory, Ulfric places Galmar in charge of the Jarls to keep them in line. Making sure they follow his orders.

Imperial victory, Tullius hands political duties over to Legate Rikke, making her the de facto ruler of Skyrim.

I personally prefer Rikke over Galmar.
 

Dradin

Tribunal Temple Acolyte
To Drunken Mage:

We had a brief encounter on the Is Talos Jesus? thread. She came across as a very harsh and linear person who lacks any strength in debate. It was her way or your a moron.

Saying she lacks "any strength in debate" is something I can't agree with. Dagmar usually knows what she is talking about, especially when it comes down to Skyrim lore. :p I only know a few people who could keep up with her in debates. And that is not because she is "harsh" or "linear".
I do know that Dagmar often has a strong opinion and defends it with a passion. And I also understand not everyone likes that. But she definitely is a strong debater. And someone who bases arguments on facts - which is something I have respect for.
You have your opinion, I have mine. I think she's a bully, you think what you think. Let's leave it there...
 

Mighty Pecan Pie

The secret American
To clarify something, I agree on the first part, it's not always direct insulting but more snarky little remarks.

Care to explain? For those this applies for, or if it is directed towards me. I of course do not mean to come across as insulting, if that is the case I will apologise to any I have offended.

If you could show me where it is insulting, it would be very appreciated. After two hundred and eighty or more pages of being in this thread, I guess I have become less patient. Though if you could show me a few examples, I am more than happy to remedy the situation. :)

I'm not gonna call names and point fingers. That would only spark another heated discussion. I just wanted to agree with the first part of Dradin's message. I wanted to clarify that, because you misunderstood that rating earlier. Otherwise I'd never posted in here today..

In just a general note: If you feel spoken to, you probably know enough.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I'm not gonna call names and point fingers. That would only spark another heated discussion. I just wanted to agree with the first part of Dradin's message. I wanted to clarify that, because you misunderstood that rating earlier. Otherwise I'd never posted in here today..

In just a general note: If you feel spoken to, you probably know enough.

I mean no ill motives or to cause a heated discussion, I was merely trying to understand on what you found insulting. I apologise if my post came off wrong, it was genuinely friendly.

I am, technically speaking, really the only Imperial supporter left in the thread most days, so fingers can only point so much.

I'm afraid I don't know enough, else I wouldn't have been asking. I assure you, my intentions are friendly. I have no wish to waste your time, I know sometimes sincere posts can often come off as sarcastic. I just want to let you know that.

I am not even completely sure I was being spoken to. I assumed it was hinted in my direction, with the other common Imperial supporters, Anouck, Docta Corvina and Self Destruct no longer taking much part in the debate.

I only wish to improve myself for any further posts, so I don't insult any new faces that participate.

So please, don't hesitate to point out if I erred in a post and come off as hostile. I have no desire to make people feel less wanted, I do welcome any and all new faces. :)

I would just like to see what would come off as insulting in your opinion, in what you meant by 'snarky little remarks' when it does come to the internet things don't always come out as the way you read them in your mind while typing. This would benefit me greatly if you had some examples, since I am currently doing a diploma of business & management. So things like this are a great way to learn from making the same mistakes twice (If directed to me) or the mistakes of others. (If directed towards other Imperial supporters).
 

Mighty Pecan Pie

The secret American
I'm not gonna call names and point fingers. That would only spark another heated discussion. I just wanted to agree with the first part of Dradin's message. I wanted to clarify that, because you misunderstood that rating earlier. Otherwise I'd never posted in here today..

In just a general note: If you feel spoken to, you probably know enough.

I mean no ill motives or to cause a heated discussion, I was merely trying to understand on what you found insulting. I apologise if my post came off wrong, it was genuinely friendly.

I am, technically speaking, really the only Imperial supporter left in the thread most days, so fingers can only point so much.

I'm afraid I don't know enough, else I wouldn't have been asking. I assure you, my intentions are friendly. I have no wish to waste your time, I know sometimes sincere posts can often come off as sarcastic. I just want to let you know that.

I am not even completely sure I was being spoken to. I assumed it was hinted in my direction, with the other common Imperial supporters, Anouck, Docta Corvina and Self Destruct no longer taking much part in the debate.

I only wish to improve myself for any further posts, so I don't insult any new faces that participate.

So please, don't hesitate to point out if I erred in a post and come off as hostile. I have no desire to make people feel less wanted, I do welcome any and all new faces. :)

I would just like to see what would come off as insulting in your opinion, in what you meant by 'snarky little remarks' when it does come to the internet things don't always come out as the way you read them in your mind while typing. This would benefit me greatly if you had some examples, since I am currently doing a diploma of business & management. So things like this are a great way to learn from making the same mistakes twice (If directed to me) or the mistakes of others. (If directed towards other Imperial supporters).
Alright, I'm now going to bed, I'll pm you tomorrow.
 

Gunnbjorn

Formerly known as Arillious
As for this...

"This thread has seen worse, it happens all the time. Just ask any Imperial supporter on these forums, they've all had a post dedicated to insults about them."

I find it the opposite. The imperials are the ones insulting others and not the way you state it. I'm not to point fingers but you claim to be Dagmar's apprentice, yet from what I've seen she's been a harsh and unforgiving person who batters the emotional security of others.

Now that that's out of the way...
To clarify something, I agree on the first part, it's not always direct insulting but more snarky little remarks.

However, I don't agree about Dagmar. But that's your opinion and I'm not gonna discuss that.

I think I may have actually been the start of the, "snarky little remarks."

ALL YOU IMPERIALS WEAR SKIRTS AND TODAY YOU STILL STAND IN DENIAL.

But seriously, I viewed this thread today for the first time in months, and was pleasantly surprised at what I saw. I always think the best sign of when you're witnessing a good, intelligent argument is when the person representing one side states something and you immediately side with him, and then when the person representing the opposing side defends/retorts, and you immediately side with them. Dradin and DrunkenMage, you guys are good, and Dradin, I don't know if you're an Independent or are siding with the Stormcloaks, but you brought up some pretty good points that I didn't think about initially, DrunkenMage may have responded intelligently and may have destroyed any points you made, but I fell asleep by the time it was his turn to speak, I hate the Imperial drawl in his voice.

I always like to win arguments, but as a Stormcloak supporter I simply do not possess the knowledge that the people on the Imperial side have of the lore and history of Skyrim, so I'll always lose, and it is because of this I resorted to snarky remarks and viciously rude comments, and I'm proud of every damn one.

I have no idea why I commented on this thread, but I'm sure not going to delete this because it will be an even bigger waste of time. I'm going to bed.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
The Imperials in this forum know they're wrong and they know what they're doing here. Perhaps not about everything, but they know it. They're using "Stone Wall" tactics to put out any fires people start against the Empire. They're not changing, page by page I'm reading the same thing over and over again. Nothing ever new comes from the Imperials on here. Take DrunkenMage's reply to my post, either one of two things went down:

1) He barely read enough of each paragraph, didn't think about it and just stuck to his standard replies.
2) He read it, realized he was wrong, so rather than face this he stuck with his standard replies while insulting me in the process, again.

That's the thing which is making people mad with them. It's not that we're right or wrong, it's that when UN-DENIABLE evidence is presented FROM THE GAME, they realize they're wrong, close their mind to it and then give a rude, childish, arrogant, malicious reply to other people who know where they're coming from and have BOOKS, TESTIMONY and other such things from Lore which supports their argument. They're being entirely too dismissive probably because of their "Seniority".

And that is not a debate nor what a debate is about. This isn't even a debate anymore.

DrunkenMage, you're saying I'm "speculating"? How in the hell is it speculating when it comes straight from a book in the game? Not to mention how events can be cross-referenced with Hammerfell's outcome?

You and Dagmar are the last two people on God's green earth who should be playing the victim. If you need us to "point out" for you where the problem is, then there's no hope of ever reaching an understanding. Seriously. And seeing how you guys are SENIOR members, then it's time you start acting like it. At least the Imperials in the game DID man-up and reached an understanding with the Thalmor. Which is more than I can say for the Stormcloaks. Indeed, I do hope the Empire makes it thru the night and finds itself again somehow. Then, they will have peace with the Dominion and themselves.

Nothing will ever get resolved here as long as attitudes remain what they are. I've read a great deal about this forum and I think everything that needs to be said, has been said. And said well. Well, until recently.

So, we have 590+ pages here and the debate consists of the same arguments over and over again? Best thing for this forum is to LOCK IT DOWN. It's already over-grown it's purpose and is just serving as a medium for a few Select "Senior Members" on here to flex their muscles and shout everyone else down so they can build up there rep. This forum serves no one else but them. I could say the sky is blue and I'd be called uhhh... "Speculating" or using Head Cannon to draw a conclusion that clouds float in the Sky. Just because a book says that clouds are "In the Sky" does not mean they're apart of the Sky.

Reason and understanding requires you to question something and think outside the box. So, with regards to this concept, I would say the Imperials on this forum are living in Medieval Times. That's what I think.

Everyone has said their peace on this, you know, it's more of the same, it would be nice if we could just Lock this Forum down, Now, before things get any worse. Because I like this place. And I like alot of you guys. I surely would not wish for myself or any of my friends on here to be banned over the Empire of Mede. 100% NOT WORTH IT. And it's also not worth debating/arguing with these Imperials but it's also not fair they exploit users for their increase in Rep/Likes/Posts.

DrunkenMage and the rest of them will keep pushing people over the edge until the people they hate are banned or publicly humiliated, then cry the Victim themselves. Rinse and repeat.

Most sensible thing to do at this point, Lock the Forum Down with the understanding that everyone needs to get a life and move on to parts unknown. And I have no interest in debating on this forum again, although with the site, I do enjoy socializing and researching things on here. Am looking forward to ESO too. :)

ALL HAIL THE DOMINION
ALL HAIL THE SEPTIM EMPIRE
ALL HAIL THE MADGOD
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I don't hate anyone, nor have I had anyone banned. I handle my own debates, I don't seek out and humiliate people. I have the same reply to you, because we have covered this argument repeatedly.

I can only state facts one way.

You're not simply using what a book tells you, you're speculating what it doesn't tell you. The book states "Main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed" you reply "They weren't completely destroyed, and that the Aldmeri Dominion control vast regions in Cyrodiil." Even though, it doesn't say it in any source of lore that the Thalmor have any holdings in Cyrodiil after the destruction of their army. Not to mention, that no one in Skyrim makes even the slighest mention of Aldmeri military occupation of Cyrodiil.

Tullius makes a mention that the Legions are on the Aldmeri Dominion's border, that the Emperor can't risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses by sending him reinforcements. Delphine states the Aldmeri Dominion is Summerset Isle & Valenwood, she doesn't say "And half of Cyrodiil."

There is a difference between using facts you see, and speculating on the basis of "You can't prove otherwise." Events regarding Hammerfell after the Great War are not in great detail.

On the grounds of your speculations, I could merely speculate that the White-Gold Concordat has more than two terms, that only two terms are highlighted because of major opinion against them. There could very well be a withdrawal of Aldmeri forces (Which the books states the army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed) Or another speculation on your argument about how the Thalmor control majority of Cyrodiil with their garrisons in every single city (Even though it mentions the Aldmeri counter attacked from two cities and they were beaten by the Nord Legions.)

We could simply say they were all captured, 'Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners'

There is a major, major difference to citing facts from in game to support an argument, and then using facts that doesn't make any direct mention to the argument and no NPC even mentions the slightest hint that Cyrodiil is occupied during the events of 4E 201.

I don't exploit anyone for rep/like/ratings. Especially since the majority of my ratings, reputation and likes come from outside Civil War debates.

You have this strange idea that we're some kind of conspiracy against those with different views. The point of a debate is to argue facts, so of course I'll reply to people's arguments and do my best to destroy their argument with my counter argument, the cycle repeats. That is the point of my being here. I'm not here to hold someone's hand when they enter the debate, people post arguments and they get a reply by either a Stormcloak or Imperial supporter depending on who they are debating for.

I don't get the whole "Senior members" thing, or acting like senior members? People on the forums act like themselves, and you're not going to get banned for debating in this thread. It is like you're making Rayven and Uther out to be unfair, that they will ban anyone who we don't like.

When I started out, I didn't have much of an idea. I learned after debating with others, I lost plenty of arguments. But you never saw me calling people bastards, that they are liars, or that this thread should be locked because I have no counter argument.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Dominion COULD HAVE BEEN defeated in Cyrodil, however Emperor Mede was satisfied with having the Imperial City back. That was it because 33 days later he ended the War by signing to most of the original terms of the WGC

Here, I'll provide another example of how you're facts hold up.

Battle of the Red Ring happened on 30th of Rain's Hand 4E 175 which is April to us. The White-Gold Concordat wasn't signed 33 days later, it was signed late in the year. And late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.

Late in a year, doesn't translate to the fifth month.

No where does it say, 33 days later the Empire ended the war. It says the Thalmor, Lord Naarifin was hanging from the White-Gold Tower for thirty three days.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
I don't hate anyone, nor have I had anyone banned. I handle my own debates, I don't seek out and humiliate people. I have the same reply to you, because we have covered this argument repeatedly.

I can only state facts one way.

You are Dagmar's "Padawan". She consistently humiliates people and even "scolds" grown men for daring to disagree with her. If you weren't so thick with Dagmar, I might actually believe you. But I've seen enough of her. That you handle your "own" debates is blatantly false. The same people give you positive rep over and over again.


You're not simply using what a book tells you, you're speculating what it doesn't tell you. The book states "Main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed" you reply "They weren't completely destroyed, and that the Aldmeri Dominion control vast regions in Cyrodiil." Even though, it doesn't say it in any source of lore that the Thalmor have any holdings in Cyrodiil after the destruction of their army. Not to mention, that no one in Skyrim makes even the slighest mention of Aldmeri military occupation of Cyrodiil.

Not speculating, every argument I made is SUPPORTED by the book. That one book alone. There is a difference between something being MAIN and something being all inclusive. You do not call something the "MAIN" thing unless there's also a secondary "thing", which is mentioned that the Thalmor had Secondary armies in Cyrodil. It does also make mention of occupation, both in Cyrodil and Hammerfell. Anvil, Bravil, Skingrad, Leyawin all fell to the Aldmeri Dominion, they were then occupied. In Hammerfell, Southern Hammerfell was "occupied" it even says so. Why would the Dominion conquer cities in Cyrodil and Not occupy them? It even says the Thalmor brought through re-enforcements into Southern Cyrodil, sent reinforcements from the cities. You just refuse to see this.


Tullius makes a mention that the Legions are on the Aldmeri Dominion's border, that the Emperor can't risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses by sending him reinforcements. Delphine states the Aldmeri Dominion is Summerset Isle & Valenwood, she doesn't say "And half of Cyrodiil."

Ok, it says they're on the border. I'm sure they are. Doesn't say where the border is now.


There is a difference between using facts you see, and speculating on the basis of "You can't prove otherwise." Events regarding Hammerfell after the Great War are not in great detail.

On the grounds of your speculations, I could merely speculate that the White-Gold Concordat has more than two terms, that only two terms are highlighted because of major opinion against them. There could very well be a withdrawal of Aldmeri forces (Which the books states the army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed) Or another speculation on your argument about how the Thalmor control majority of Cyrodiil with their garrisons in every single city (Even though it mentions the Aldmeri counter attacked from two cities and they were beaten by the Nord Legions.)

100% not speculating. I can't speculate if my argument is based on facts, Dagmar.


We could simply say they were all captured, 'Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners'

There is a major, major difference to citing facts from in game to support an argument, and then using facts that doesn't make any direct mention to the argument and no NPC even mentions the slightest hint that Cyrodiil is occupied during the events of 4E 201.

The book was not pieced together. It was the account of one LEGATE who had first hand knowledge of what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar? I mean, I'm confused. You say that your arguments are backed up by Lore and all this other stuff, however you have no respect for the game itself?


I don't exploit anyone for rep/like/ratings. Especially since the majority of my ratings, reputation and likes come from outside Civil War debates.

You have this strange idea that we're some kind of conspiracy against those with different views. The point of a debate is to argue facts, so of course I'll reply to people's arguments and do my best to destroy their argument with my counter argument, the cycle repeats. That is the point of my being here. I'm not here to hold someone's hand when they enter the debate, people post arguments and they get a reply by either a Stormcloak or Imperial supporter depending on who they are debating for.

First of all, this is not my idea and this is not a conspiracy and you're not the only one. Anyone can look back at your posts and see the pattern(s). "Holding my hand" Good grief. You have no respect for others on here. This is exactly what I just said, how Dagmar and you treat everyone like children. Why should anyone respect what you say when you clearly have demonstrated no respect for them?

Your friends should not have to immed jump on your side and keep flaring your posts when someone else disagrees with you. That's not right and it doesn't help us reach any conclusions.


I don't get the whole "Senior members" thing, or acting like senior members? People on the forums act like themselves, and you're not going to get banned for debating in this thread. It is like you're making Rayven and Uther out to be unfair, that they will ban anyone who we don't like.

When I started out, I didn't have much of an idea. I learned after debating with others, I lost plenty of arguments. But you never saw me calling people bastards, that they are liars, or that this thread should be locked because I have no counter argument.

You just said yourself about how you were a senior member and have stopped listening to people. If you've been here for so long that the argument is getting boring for you, then chances are good everyone else will get bored to.


ALL HAIL THE DOMINION
ALL HAIL THE SEPTIM EMPIRE
ALL HAIL THE MADGOD
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You are Dagmar's "Padawan". She consistently humiliates people and even "scolds" grown men for daring to disagree with her. If you weren't so thick with Dagmar, I might actually believe you. But I've seen enough of her. That you handle your "own" debates is blatantly false. The same people give you positive rep over and over again.

Maybe they like my post? Or maybe because it is the same people in this thread since no one else ventures in here?

I don't handle my own debates? I didn't realize I had others posting for me.

I'm not "thick" with Dagmar, in fact I rarely ever spoke with her. Not to mention I haven't seen her in god knows how long. Move on when it comes to Dagmar, you're always going on about Dagmar. Dagmar isn't even here anymore, she doesn't post anymore.



Not speculating, every argument I made is SUPPORTED by the book. That one book alone. There is a difference between something being MAIN and something be all inclusive. You do not call something the "MAIN" thing unless there's also a secondary "thing". It does make mention of occupation. All those cities fell the Aldmeri Dominion, they were occupied. In Hammerfell, Southern Hammerfell was "occupied" it even says so. Why would the Dominion conquer cities in Cyrodil and Not occupy them? It even says the Thalmor brought through re-enforcements into Southern Cyrodil, sent reinforcements from the cities. Your eyes are empty.

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself.

Thalmor leadership, would probably be located in Valenwood. To commit forces into Cyrodiil they would have to have come from outside of Cyrodiil. Southern Cyrodiil, yes that would make sense since that would be where the Dominion are coming from, hidden camps in Elsweyr.

Makes no mention of forces being sent from cities? Though perhaps you can quote where it does?

Hammerfell was occupied yes, from the other Aldmeri army that was pushed across Hammerfell by the left behind Legionnaires by Decianus. Occupation of Hammerfell was the objective of the Thalmor. It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun.

The Thalmor then decided that; The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years.






Ok, it says they're on the border. I'm sure they are. Doesn't say where the border is now.

"They're the rulers of the Aldmeri Dominion - what used to be the Imperial provinces of Summerset Isle and Valenwood."

100% not speculating. I can't speculate if my argument is based on facts, Dagmar.

Of course they are... and it's 'DrunkenMage'



The book was not peiced together. It was the account of one LEGATE who had first hand knowledge of what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar?

What does the first text say in the book? Author's Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers. I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City. That said, the full truth of some events may never be known. I have done my best to fill in the gaps with educated conjectures based on my experience as well as my hard-earned knowledge of the enemy.

And you say my eyes are 'empty'?

First of all, this is not my idea and this is not a conspiracy. Anyone can look back at your posts and see the pattern(s).

:confused: The plot deepens.


You just said yourself about how you were a senior member and have stopped listening to people.

No I didn't.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Not to mention, that no one in Skyrim makes even the slighest mention of Aldmeri military occupation of Cyrodiil.

There is one, he's an Altmer called Runil. You'll find him in Falkreath.
His dialogue and journal proves that he is one of the - or possibly even the only - survivor(s). The only thing left open would be if he actually was in the Capital of Cyrodiil, 'cause the journal only indicates that he was one of the guys in Bravil, leading some mage group into battle. On the other hand, Lore states that the Thalmor intended to take the Empire down and sent as many forces there as possible, we don't know to what degree they kept occupying conquered cities. And how would he escape the Thalmor anyway, or the Dominion's territory? Seems to me they keep their borders guarded quite well, not a surprise considering the circumstances though.

I must say it's quite a shame you can't ask more of him, after killing so many people he's one of the few NPCs in Skyrim that actually have some life in them and in a way I do feel sorry for him. It appears that he's getting almost humanely emotional about deaths these days, even the deaths of strangers. Damn you Bethesda, at least release a book with spaceless pre-Skyrim Lore content. ><
 

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