Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Shadow King said:

Evry single thing u have said here is 100%.

Before I went to kill the emperor in the db quest I thought good he is a weak puppet, but meeting the man and seeing how easy and fearless he was off me I saw only strength. that single encounter changed my views of him, and the emperor got his last request from me, there was no way I could refuse his request.

I think people blame the emperor and they always compare him to the septims and say he is a bad emperor what because he didn't conquer Tamriel like Tiber or didn't sacrifice himself like Martin.

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Moris said:

This is a beautiful post. Or it would be, if the dispute that fuelled this exchange were as simple as the trading of a single dismissive remark. Alas, it's not. It's hundreds of pages filled with such remarks.

I've mostly gritted my teeth and ignored them when I've come across them because I assumed that any reasonably intelligent person reading them would see them for what they are: personal attacks that weaken the argument of the one making them. I have also lost massive amounts of respect for perpetrators of this tactic on both sides. However, that loss of respect has got to the point that I no longer see any purpose in responding to those who've made a habit of arguing in this manner. By now, half the contributors to this thread don't show up on my screen when I read it.

Ozan may have blown up. But I doubt that it was at a single exchange (as he alludes to my own increasing cynicism regarding this thread). He strikes me as possessed of a great deal more equanimity than that.

I have also attempted to play peacemaker. It was futile.

I concluded instead that when the poo starts flying the best thing you can do is duck and/or exit.

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DrunkenMage said:

Back onto the Imperial vs Stormcloak side of things.

A major point many Stormcloak supporters will use is the Empire is the puppet of the Thalmor that they do what the Thalmor want. I would accept that if the Empire wasn't on the border facing down the Aldmeri Dominion, if the Thalmor weren't trying to destroy and weaken the Empire with the rebellion. It would seem Stormcloaks would be more the puppet, since they do get Thalmor aid and are doing what the Thalmor want by weakening the Empire.

Just because the Empire went for peace doesn't make them puppets. It just doesn't make sense that the Thalmor would be trying to weaken the Empire and destroy it, if they controlled it and pulled the Empire's strings. The Empire allowed Thalmor free reign across the Empire to slaughter people... No they didn't. They were allowed to track down Talos worshipers but to make an arrest they needed evidence hence the quest in Markarth where the Thalmor needs proof that a person is worshiping Talos. If they had complete freedom as many stormcloaks claim, then they would of just taken him. The Thalmor don't always follow the right thing which is noticed by their Death Squads sent to hunt the Dragonborn, their attacks on the player if the player asks too many questions. However the Empire doesn't have proof of it. They suspect it and are gearing up for a war but they have no proof of the Thalmor doing the cloak and dagger stuff. The Thalmor plan hundreds of years ahead.

The fact that the Legions are on the border and are preparing for another conflict shows they are not mere puppets. Ulfric however is doing what they want by directing Imperial attention away from the Aldmeri Dominion and turning the eyes of the Empire away from external affairs and into an internal struggle.

I wouldn't call the Mede Empire a bad Empire, they faced a lot of problems, with a weakened Empire that had lost many provinces. They restored a lot of things and fixed many others. Titus Mede II chose peace, the fact that he did that speaks volumes, it doesn't make the Empire cowards or weak. Unless of course you consider saving thousands is weak. People have a habit of trying to make out the Thalmor have more power than they actually do within the Empire.

I do remember reading awhile back that someone said something about "how long does the empire need to wait then" Since it has been nearly 30 years of rebuilding, people seem to think that the Empire is too weak. Well you'd be an idiot to go to war while you're having a Civil war.

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Moris said:

Well said.

There's a lot of exaggerated language in this debate, as we have a tendency to take the colorful words of the various leaders and repeat them here. But effective speeches are rarely made up of sound arguments. I like the fact that you're avoiding such language in this a post. It's refreshing.

In that regard, I don't think reasonable SC supporters really argue that the Empire is literally being controlled by the Thalmor, only that the Thalmor influence is sufficient enough to cause real grievance.

Likewise, I do not believe that the position of reasonable SC supporters is that the Empire literally controls Skyrim, only that its influence is great enough to be experienced, that it does affect the choosing of a High King, that it does affect the raising of an individual to the position of Jarl (to wit: Siddgeir), and that it does this without giving any similar influence back to the people of Skyrim over its own internal politics. In other words, Empire influence affects Skyrim politics, but how much say do Skyrim Jarls have in Empire politics? I would say they feel they are getting the short end of the stick here.

This may not feel like much of a beef, but in politics the jockeying for a tiny bit of power here and a minor change of laws there dominates most of history. After a few long decades of this sort of power struggle, the accumulation of tiny grievances can blow up, and if it's accompanied by popular support, it may turn into a rebellion.

Not all the grievances are tiny, however. I find it hard to believe that question of religion gets such short shrift, as though the symbolic meaning of a law can carry so little weight. This is not my understanding of how the hearts of devout worshippers beat. People will riot over the rumor of a single instance of a holy book burning on another continent. It is easy for us to dismiss this as either the machinations of a power-mad cleric or the response of a crazy bunch of zealots. But given the degree to which the question of religion has dominated politics for thousands of years, even resulting in schisms based on differing arcane interpretations of the same text, I would say that it's more likely there is something fundamental to the functioning of the human heart that makes our struggles over belief so deeply bitter. I do not think the citizens of Skyrim are immune.

I do believe that I was one of those who asked, if not now, when? in regards to the 25 year wait for the Empire's re-engagement with the Thalmor. I don't get the impression that the Civil War has been going on for that long. I understood that the event that precipitated the mobilization of Legion troops in Skyrim was the death of King Torygg. Prior to that, the Empire would be aware of an increasingly loud voice iterating the grievances of those who support Jarl Ulfric (remember he talked at the last Moot about independence in tones "just shy of treason" -- as Sybille Stentor put it), but I didn't think they'd sent any troops to quell those voices until after the High King's death. As a result, I did not get the impression that the Civil War had been weakening the Empire for this entire duration.

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DrunkenMage said:

The Empire allows Provinces to control their politics, like the infighting in Hammerfell prior to the Great War, they don't have a very large say in it. They maintain Imperial Law which all provinces follow and the leader of a Province would swear fealty to the Emperor. The Legion only maintains a presence in the Provinces to be on the ready for whatever is needed of them. They are rarely called into action unless serious business is going down. They recruit people into their ranks but have no say in Law. They are the Military, that are there for the purpose of gaining recruits. "While in peacetime the Legion serves primarily as a garrison force, manning forts, patrolling roads, and providing guardsmen for towns (like Captain Lex for Bravil), cities, counties, and nobles" A Jarl could probably go into Imperial politics but he'd have to give up being a Jarl and go for the Elder council. Many of the Elder council represent other Provinces like in Oblivion they were in their respective Provinces "Truth be told, most of the Council has returned to the provinces to deal with urgent local matters, but we are in regular communication. But the Inner Council still holds regular meetings. We have the situation well in hand, I assure you." Ocato was the one remaining in Cyrodiil. 'Elder Council has full legislative authority, being able to enact new laws wherein they deem them proper; to counter this, the reigning Emperor retains the power of veto'

The Civil war has been going on for at least a few years, it was going on before Tullius was sent. When you arrive Tullius has only been there for a few short months. This is from Solaf, owner of the General store in Falkreath who was a Stormcloak soldier "I was once, but not any more. I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you."

The Empire might not have been aware of the talks, the Moot is for the Jarl's only. Ulfric came back to Torygg later on, he was let in because they assumed he was going to talk more about independence with Torygg.

The religion is always a bit touch and go and many loyal to the Empire still do worship Talos. Jarl of Whiterun, Legate Rikke even Hadvar's uncle Alvor, who says if you speak to him before Hadvar "Hadvar, thank Talos! Your friend told me about Helgen..."

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DrunkenMage said:

There has even been an Argonian on the Elder Council.

Also interesting fact. There was a Dark Elf Empress of the Throne on the Empire.

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Moris said:

Ah, good point. I forgot about the brothers in Falkreath. So the Legion has had troops in Skyrim to deal with rebels "for years". Too bad we can't pin that down (or can we?). It still seems that they had avoided large scale mobilization until recently, and that would accompany the arrival of Tullius on the scene. But again, I'm operating from impression only, and impressions can be deceiving.

As for Talos worship, I doubt its form is homogeneous. There are mild worshippers, devout worshippers, those who will happily keep their worship a secret, and those who feel it is an affront to their god to force worship of him out of the public realm. In any case, I do know this, I would feel uncomfortable being a Talos worshipper when an Imperial of Tullius' bent were around. When Rikke bids good bye to her former comrade from the Great War and says, "May Talos take you," Tullius replies with a very stern "What was that?" The exchange sent chills down my spine.

(Some might interpret Tullius' question as being semi-serious, verging on humor, but I have seen no evidence that he is anything but a very serious individual; it seems out of character for him to suddenly start cracking jokes at the conclusion of one of the most serious events he's taken part in.)

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DrunkenMage said:

The Empire allows Provinces to control their politics, like the infighting in Hammerfell prior to the Great War, they don't have a very large say in it. They maintain Imperial Law which all provinces follow and the leader of a Province would swear fealty to the Emperor. The Legion only maintains a presence in the Provinces to be on the ready for whatever is needed of them. They are rarely called into action unless serious business is going down. They recruit people into their ranks but have no say in Law. They are the Military, that are there for the purpose of gaining recruits. "While in peacetime the Legion serves primarily as a garrison force, manning forts, patrolling roads, and providing guardsmen for towns (like Captain Lex for Bravil), cities, counties, and nobles" A Jarl could probably go into Imperial politics but he'd have to give up being a Jarl and go for the Elder council. Many of the Elder council represent other Provinces like in Oblivion they were in their respective Provinces "Truth be told, most of the Council has returned to the provinces to deal with urgent local matters, but we are in regular communication. But the Inner Council still holds regular meetings. We have the situation well in hand, I assure you." Ocato was the one remaining in Cyrodiil. 'Elder Council has full legislative authority, being able to enact new laws wherein they deem them proper; to counter this, the reigning Emperor retains the power of veto'

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Moris said:

Thank you for nailing that.

So the provinces have representation in Imperial politics, but the Jarls do not themselves. Their complaint (and by no means do I suggest that all of them would have this complaint -- only the rebel faction) would have to be that their representatives did not properly represent their concerns -- which is very easy for anyone to posit, given that this is not a democracy. Obviously the Jarls who support the Stormcloaks do not feel that their interests were served in the signing of the WG Concordat.

I'm guessing that Imperial supporters take this dispute as an example of true pettiness?

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DrunkenMage said:

He follows Imperial Law, even if he doesn't agree with it he will uphold it. Which is why the "What was that?" was said. But also saying that he pretended he didn't hear her clearly.

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Moris said:

Oh, I know he pretended he didn't hear her clearly. But it sounded like a warning to me, a warning that, if you must breathe oaths, breathe them more quietly next time.

Maybe I'm more sensitive to such things, having experienced the subtle face of intimidation over religious beliefs myself, and will see things in this exchange that others will not see. However, I can't take it from my mind.

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DrunkenMage said:

Jarl's are represented by the High King. They control their holds which are largely independent but swear fealty to the High King of Skyrim. Basically skyrim is 9 separate small governments, each with their own courts. Kind of like a miniature empire.

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Moris said:

Ah, good point. I forgot about the brothers in Falkreath. So the Legion has had troops in Skyrim to deal with rebels "for years". Too bad we can't pin that down (or can we?). It still seems that they had avoided large scale mobilization until recently, and that would accompany the arrival of Tullius on the scene. But again, I'm operating from impression only, and impressions can be deceiving.

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Moris said:

The pieces fall into place, then. This makes sense. The Jarls are represented by the High King, and those who support Stormcloak claim, as he does, that the recent high kings are not true representatives, that the choice of high king is not truly free but unduly influenced by the Empire, and that as a result, they are being kept from real and meaningful political participation in the Empire's affairs.

Not asking anyone to agree with their assertions, just offering it as a statement of their position.

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DrunkenMage said:

Joining the Legion you swear an oath to the Empire and Emperor, so to Imperial Law. The Legion are professional soldiers who aren't allowed to let personal belief interfere with their duty to uphold Imperial Law.

Which is one of the reasons I don't exactly like many Stormcloaks who were in the Legion. They did swear an oath, so giving their word. Breaking an oath isn't something that should be simply swept away in Nordic culture, they are very honor bound people and giving their word generally means to the death.

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Moris said:

The pieces fall into place, then. This makes sense. The Jarls are represented by the High King, and those who support Stormcloak claim, as he does, that the recent high kings are not true representatives, that the choice of high king is not truly free but unduly influenced by the Empire, and that as a result, they are being kept from real and meaningful political participation in the Empire's affairs.

Not asking anyone to agree with their assertions, just offering it as a statement of their position.

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Moris said:

Well, I agree. I also assert that to Nords it is a matter of honor that you do not let an oathbreaker escape his obligations. So I cannot criticize Ulfric's refusal to hand over Markarth until Igmund's promise had been fulfilled. And I recognize how deep the betrayal must be when he is arrested for this.

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DrunkenMage said:

It is influenced by the Empire, they support who ever is rightful to the seat, which is by blood lines/marriage.

Ulfric's heart may have been in the right place but his actions weren't. There could have been many ways, diplomatic ways. The High King was very young almost a boy, killing someone that young for his title when he may have listened to Ulfric, because he respected Ulfric. 'Torygg intended to hear more of his arguments for independence with an open mind; neither he nor his court suspected that Ulfric was there to challenge Torygg until it was too late to stop it' That just doesn't seem right, for him to use the voice on someone that young.

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