Anyone else find Svana's quest a little... uncomfortable?

So, I'm not the biggest fan of Haelga or anything, I accept she's generally a bad person. She clearly overworks her niece and she has a few racist lines in her dialogue. But I find it really weird that the way Svana proposes to "get back at her" is through a slut-shaming quest...

For me, Haelga's sluttiness is not her most negative trait (or a negative trait at all, except for the married man she's sleeping with) but Svana seems to think it's the worst thing about her.

In the type of culture and traditional society the Nords have, it makes sense that being overly sexual is frowned upon. Just like it is in many cultures throughout the world now, and back when technology was as simple. It's not incredibly abnormal honestly.

Specter of Death said:

In the type of culture and traditional society the Nords have, it makes sense that being overly sexual is frowned upon. Just like it is in many cultures throughout the world now, and back when technology was as simple. It's not incredibly abnormal honestly.

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But Skyrim doesn't seem to adhere to other traditional societal norms. For example, no one seems to care about inter-racial or same-sex relationships. It's pretty arbitrary to draw the line at sleeping around.

Aleksander said:

But Skyrim doesn't seem to adhere to other traditional societal norms. For example, no one seems to care about inter-racial or same-sex relationships. It's pretty arbitrary to draw the line at sleeping around.

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There’s nowhere saying that people don’t care about inter-racial or same-sex partnerships. Or any other number of PC things. Common sense fills in those blanks though, so does all the lore in the lore-books and stories. In Windhelm the first thing you see is 2 Nords basically threatening to kill a Dunmer because she’s the color of ash along with other stereotypes. I think if they had a family member or friend who were to be dating a Dunmer, odds are they wouldn’t be all too happy. In Lore same sex partnerships have been both condemned and celebrated as well. Just because things aren’t openly said or shown by NPC’s or their behavior doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist in the games.

Skyrim is basically fantasy Middle Ages. We still have slut-shaming in our modern developed world after a century of feminist struggle. It's not hard to imagine that people would shame someone for sleeping around in a medieval-type world.

Still, though, I did think it was a rather odd quest.

But yes Skyrim absolutely does have other forms of prejudice too, such as racism. When I first went to Windhelm and learned about the grey quarter, the first thing I thought of was Jewish ghettos.

Specter of Death said:

Aleksander said:

But Skyrim doesn't seem to adhere to other traditional societal norms. For example, no one seems to care about inter-racial or same-sex relationships. It's pretty arbitrary to draw the line at sleeping around.

Click to expand...

There’s nowhere saying that people don’t care about inter-racial or same-sex partnerships. Or any other number of PC things. Common sense fills in those blanks though, so does all the lore in the lore-books and stories. In Windhelm the first thing you see is 2 Nords basically threatening to kill a Dunmer because she’s the color of ash along with other stereotypes. I think if they had a family member or friend who were to be dating a Dunmer, odds are they wouldn’t be all too happy. In Lore same sex partnerships have been both condemned and celebrated as well. Just because things aren’t openly said or shown by NPC’s or their behavior doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist in the games.

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congrats on Reading The Lore, my dude. But excuse me for accepting the gameplay at face value.
If Angrenor Once-Honored is totally down for marrying my Dunmer mage guy, then I accept his racism only goes as far as a general distrust for a certain group of people and not the individuals of that group or their romantic relationships.

The Lore may have condemned same-sex relationships in the past, but when was this Lore written? Because it doesn't change the fact that every character looking for romance is bisexual. Hell, they're probably all bisexual. It's canon because if the gameplay.

So, I trust find it strange that Svana turned out to be so sexually repressed. I guess it stems from rejecting her Aunt in every way possible, but it's still weird to me. It's especially weird that the game wants you to slut-shame someone. I don't get it. Skyrim is so sexually vibrant outside of this one occasion.

As I said, it’s mostly all common sense. Of course there’s gonna be exceptions. And everyone is made uncomfortable and feel “gross” (for lack of a better term) by different things. For me, in a world so exceptionally vibrant sexually and otherwise (well put btw), it was only natural to find people who are like that in such a big universe. The world wouldn’t seem normal without realistic interpersonal hate and the like—and villains and evil-doers only do so much to present that. That’s just me though. I in no way agree with the act of shaming someone who sleeps around, but there are people who would. So that’s why the inclusion of it is important, at least for me.

As for the lore, it both condemned and celebrated same sex relationships. And all the Lore is written with the release of the games. So with every iteration of an ES game since Arena in 94’.

I also like the amount of thought that has been put into this btw. I’ve been in this community for a while and almost nobody has ever discussed the sexuality of the different peoples in game.


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Mithradates said:

Skyrim is basically fantasy Middle Ages. We still have slut-shaming in our modern developed world after a century of feminist struggle. It's not hard to imagine that people would shame someone for sleeping around in a medieval-type world.

Still, though, I did think it was a rather odd quest.

But yes Skyrim absolutely does have other forms of prejudice too, such as racism. When I first went to Windhelm and learned about the grey quarter, the first thing I thought of was Jewish ghettos.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't get the 'because Middle Ages' point. As I've mentioned above, the Middle Ages probably wouldn't be so cool about my elf mage man marrying Farkas the werewolf. There definitely would have been some burning at the stake.

And Skyrim only has racism as far as it serves the Civil War narrative. Outside of Windhelm, racism doesn't play a very big part in any quests at all. Nor to the elven characters seem to be having a hard time. Which I think is good, by the way, this game does not have the narrative chops to do racism properly.

I’d say play the other games, and pay closer attention to the NPCs outside of quests and player to npc relations to see how big racism and other forms of prejudice are in the games. Much like the real world, it’s super easy not to notice it’s existence unless you are directly involved. You simply have yet to see and experience it. Soon, I trust you will though. Especially after having such lovely conversation! [emoji1]


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Specter of Death said:

As I said, it’s mostly all common sense. Of course there’s gonna be exceptions. And everyone is made uncomfortable and feel “gross” (for lack of a better term) by different things. For me, in a world so exceptionally vibrant sexually and otherwise (well put btw), it was only natural to find people who are like that in such a big universe. The world wouldn’t seem normal without realistic interpersonal hate and the like—and villains and evil-doers only do so much to present that. That’s just me though. I in no way agree with the act of shaming someone who sleeps around, but there are people who would. So that’s why the inclusion of it is important, at least for me.

As for the lore, it both condemned and celebrated same sex relationships. And all the Lore is written with the release of the games. So with every iteration of an ES game since Arena in 94’.

I also like the amount of thought that has been put into this btw. I’ve been in this community for a while and almost nobody has ever discussed the sexuality of the different peoples in game.


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Click to expand...

I get the inclusion of people like Svana, I think what I find most weird about the quest, is that it *is* a quest. And her motivation is weird. I just don't buy it that her Aunt being shamed by a total stranger will have the positive impact on Svana's life that she imagines it will. What reason does Haelga have to treat Svana differently? She didn't know her niece was involved. And she doesn't even seem to care that much anyway.

For this reason, it takes me completely out of the narrative and role-playing, which is probably why I've been over-thinking it. Maybe if she was complaining that Haelga encouraged her to date men she didn't know (which I know she does), or Svana had a particular problem with her sleeping with married men (which would make more sense) but the biggest problem in her life is being over-worked, and this quest is not the appropriate solution to that problem. What are we even doing? Why can't we just tell Haelga to back the fluff off, or give Svana money to move to Whiterun or whatever? The solution does not solve the problem, and it's weird.

That's not even beginning to talk about the weird religious aspect of Haelga's explanation. I know the other Dibella devotee's are probably not shacking up with all of Markarth, but what exactly is the nature of these "erotic teachings" and if she's one of the Nine Divines why aren't people more into it?

See ^ all that over-thinking is because of one small sidequest that pulled me out of the game.

I know, I also spend a lot of time reading the game manuals for lore. I didn't really mean to sound so snarky when I mentioned the lore thing. It just reminds me of that weird diegetic argument. Like the weird bunny girl from Final Fantasy has to be wearing sexy stilettos all the time, because of the shape of her feet. Weird.

So to get back to your point. I don't think it would have been as uncomfortable for me if Svana's motivations had been clear, and her character was fleshed-out around this. But it seemed more like the writers just wanted to make sure you knew Haelga was a loose woman, in case you didn't get all the *very* subtle hints, and this made her a bad person.

Aleksander said:

Specter of Death said:

As I said, it’s mostly all common sense. Of course there’s gonna be exceptions. And everyone is made uncomfortable and feel “gross” (for lack of a better term) by different things. For me, in a world so exceptionally vibrant sexually and otherwise (well put btw), it was only natural to find people who are like that in such a big universe. The world wouldn’t seem normal without realistic interpersonal hate and the like—and villains and evil-doers only do so much to present that. That’s just me though. I in no way agree with the act of shaming someone who sleeps around, but there are people who would. So that’s why the inclusion of it is important, at least for me.

As for the lore, it both condemned and celebrated same sex relationships. And all the Lore is written with the release of the games. So with every iteration of an ES game since Arena in 94’.

I also like the amount of thought that has been put into this btw. I’ve been in this community for a while and almost nobody has ever discussed the sexuality of the different peoples in game.


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Click to expand...

I get the inclusion of people like Svana, I think what I find most weird about the quest, is that it *is* a quest. And her motivation is weird. I just don't buy it that her Aunt being shamed by a total stranger will have the positive impact on Svana's life that she imagines it will. What reason does Haelga have to treat Svana differently? She didn't know her niece was involved. And she doesn't even seem to care that much anyway.

For this reason, it takes me completely out of the narrative and role-playing, which is probably why I've been over-thinking it. Maybe if she was complaining that Haelga encouraged her to date men she didn't know (which I know she does), or Svana had a particular problem with her sleeping with married men (which would make more sense) but the biggest problem in her life is being over-worked, and this quest is not the appropriate solution to that problem. What are we even doing? Why can't we just tell Haelga to back the fluff off, or give Svana money to move to Whiterun or whatever? The solution does not solve the problem, and it's weird.

That's not even beginning to talk about the weird religious aspect of Haelga's explanation. I know the other Dibella devotee's are probably not shacking up with all of Markarth, but what exactly is the nature of these "erotic teachings" and if she's one of the Nine Divines why aren't people more into it?

See ^ all that over-thinking is because of one small sidequest that pulled me out of the game.

I know, I also spend a lot of time reading the game manuals for lore. I didn't really mean to sound so snarky when I mentioned the lore thing. It just reminds me of that weird diegetic argument. Like the weird bunny girl from Final Fantasy has to be wearing sexy stilettos all the time, because of the shape of her feet. Weird.

So to get back to your point. I don't think it would have been as uncomfortable for me if Svana's motivations had been clear, and her character was fleshed-out around this. But it seemed more like the writers just wanted to make sure you knew Haelga was a loose woman, in case you didn't get all the *very* subtle hints, and this made her a bad person.

Click to expand...

I also just noticed that this site corrected my curse word to "fluff" which I am totally down for. That's an amazing feature.

And YES, I am taking this as permission to talk about sexual politics in Skyrim all the time. I have sooooo much to say about it, so much. I have so many posts to make.

Valid indeed. I haven’t even put that much thought into it but now I’m looking forward to re-evaluating the quest deeper this play through!

Also feel free to post all the topics like this you want! So long as you aren’t attacking people or anything it’s welcomed and encouraged! And thanks about the props for our cuss-bot! We hope to encourage a little less vulgarity and a little more intelligent vocabulary XD


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Specter of Death said:

I’d say play the other games, and pay closer attention to the NPCs outside of quests and player to npc relations to see how big racism and other forms of prejudice are in the games. Much like the real world, it’s super easy not to notice it’s existence unless you are directly involved. You simply have yet to see and experience it. Soon, I trust you will though. Especially after having such lovely conversation! [emoji1]


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Click to expand...

I've played Morrowind and Oblivion. Oblivion I've noticed leans away from the racism angle very far, and I understand why. I mentioned above that Skyrim does not have the narrative chops to do racism properly and I think that's true for all games. They really want to have it both ways, to the point where your choice of race boils down to some characters occasionally going, "hey u r an elve" without having to deal with huge systemic problems. Becuase it's hard to do that in a game, even a big game.

And I like that approach because racism and homophobia and gender politics are all *really* depressing, and my favorite RPG's just cut a lot of that out. It's the biggest reason I prefer Elder Scrolls over Dragon Age and the like.

I'm no expert on Elder Scrolls lore, but I think the idea of Dibella's erotic teachings is that there's supposed to be some secrecy and intimacy between Dibella's followers and their encounters. While Haelga is not ashamed of her arts, I think she likes to keep it to the imagination.

Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.

Haelga will probably feel like she failed Dibella by not being able to protect the mystery aspect of her teachings.

Also, the men complain about Haelga being out of control and excessive with her practices on them. So doing this will not only get Haelga to slow down and focus more on running the bar and make things easier for Svana, it will give the men a break as well.

On a side note, Maven Blackbriar warns Haelga to keep her practices away from Hemming. I'm guessing Maven wants to maintain her family's sinister reputation, and doesn't want to hear people gossiping about how the men in her family like to lick honey and juniper juice out of a Dibellan worshiper's snatch at the next Thalmor Embassy party.

Aleksander said:

Specter of Death said:

In the type of culture and traditional society the Nords have, it makes sense that being overly sexual is frowned upon. Just like it is in many cultures throughout the world now, and back when technology was as simple. It's not incredibly abnormal honestly.

Click to expand...

But Skyrim doesn't seem to adhere to other traditional societal norms. For example, no one seems to care about inter-racial or same-sex relationships. It's pretty arbitrary to draw the line at sleeping around.

Click to expand...

Well if we are going for realism, it always was frowned upon. The oldest profession was never the most desired long term, it happened and will happen till the end of days of men. Men were and are accepting casual sex in most opportunities they can, but they would never commit to such women, thus the whole ideology would be born and i do think its pretty much a common occurence, women are a lot mote cruel and shame other women, its similar with men and their gender.

Men could never know if the baby is theirs, never. Thus virginity was so "important" and that all promscious women were given the label of not suited for family, just for fun - but thats it. She even mentions "not lady like" - and in that context thats right. There is no need to search for sjw justince in games. I mean they ruined movies, isnt that enough?

Men just have instinctively disliked promscious women, from the begining of our species, women dislike competition, on top "easy" women devalue price of sex, and its always a risk these women will seduce their men, lure them over, etc - thats a threat, her actions and response are completely normal and realistic from social standpoint, what most women with different lifestyles would do, to protect themselves, on top in those times, there would be no shaming for such opinion, thats realistic, but we are talking about a fantasy game, so in the end - whatever.

But even today 90% of women would act that way and for understandable causes, on top add that its in old times and you get the picture, p.s the pervasion of rome was their downfall and no babies were raised, they were just dumped in trash bins, communist russia attempt failed misreabley and hard as well, promsciousity and too liberal outlook on sex is always a downfall for society. Sex isnt just fun, its reproduction, most important life event for an organism, but men dont care and just play along accept no responsibility = women or babies suffer, or they hard strain welfare or society simply dies out or stop progressing and in the end women are the ones who suffer the most, thus its quite reasonable that majority of women would seek to keep the boundaries and value of "vagina" in check. It was always women who hated whorehouses and 2 recorded attempts at pervasive society failed miserably, so id say quite realistic quest. 10/10 i went way too deep with this.