The 'Warp in the North' and the Dovahkiin 'godhead'

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So ever since I posted my thoughts in the Elder Scrolls 6 (VI): Where will it take place? thread, I've been stuck thinking about how Bethesda will consolidate the happenings of Skyrim in the rest of the series - especially the civil war.

And then I remembered the in-game books, 'The Warp in the West' and 'Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?'. For those who don't know, in TES II: Daggerfall, there were something like six possible endings, and rather than pick one of them as canon when making TES III: Morrowind, Bethesda decided to make all of them canon. They introduced the concept of a Dragon Break to explain this, which is a period of 'un-time' wherein multiple parallel timelines co-exist (the 'Dragon' representing Akatosh, who is associated with time). The people of Tamriel remember different, mutually-exclusive versions of history, all of which happened simultaneously, and even the passage of time itself is suspect and unreliable. Eventually, the Dragon Break ends and the timelines merge back together again, leaving a muddled period of history and a very confused population.

I thought that this was an ingenious, fourth-wall-mutating way of handling it. Oblivion didn't need this kind of treatment, as it didn't really have much in the way of decision-making (at least not in the main quest), but in Skyrim we have the civil war to consider. So my... not really a question, but a talking point I suppose... is, do you think that the next game in the series will have to deal with another Dragon Break? A 'Warp in the North'? Do you think that would be a good way to handle the unresolved threads of Skyrim, or do you think they should look at another means of settling the issue? I do hope they don't gloss over it, though.

My other talking point is a bit more 'out there'. A while ago (and it references the above points quite a lot) I read a series of articles that dealt with the 'metaphysics' of TES. The part I loved the most was the third, which delved into some of Vivec's (of TES III fame) lore and suggested that he was fully aware that he was a character in a video game. It also pointed out that every other Dragon Break in history, with the exception of the one caused by the Hero of Daggerfall (unless the following is true), was caused by someone who ultimately became a god of some kind or another - Tiber Septim, for example. It went on to argue that because of the way Vivec described his own godhood, that the players too, in the universe of TES, were themselves a kind of god because they had access to things like savegames, the Creation Kit, etc, and that Dragon Breaks might actually be caused by players doing things like reloading savegames and pursuing multiple paths. By this logic, Vivec's own powers had actually come from realising that he was in an imaginary world in a similar way without going insane, which granted him access to the same mechanics as the player, even if he described them in terms of TES terminology that he understood. If they do handle Skyrim's branching storyline as a Dragon Break, I wonder if the Last Dragonborn will similarly ascend? I'm not sure if Bethesda has the writing chops to wrangle with existential topics like this any more, though, unfortunately.

Anyway, this is more of a topic of discussion than a question, and a way for me to think out loud I suppose! What are your thoughts? I find it all fascinating!

P.s. I'm sorry if creating a new thread isn't appropriate, but I felt that this was separate from the stickied topic about where the next game will be set.
 

Irishman

Well-Endowed Member
So ever since I posted my thoughts in the Elder Scrolls 6 (VI): Where will it take place? thread, I've been stuck thinking about how Bethesda will consolidate the happenings of Skyrim in the rest of the series - especially the civil war.

And then I remembered the in-game books, 'The Warp in the West' and 'Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?'. For those who don't know, in TES II: Daggerfall, there were something like six possible endings, and rather than pick one of them as canon when making TES III: Morrowind, Bethesda decided to make all of them canon. They introduced the concept of a Dragon Break to explain this, which is a period of 'un-time' wherein multiple parallel timelines co-exist (the 'Dragon' representing Akatosh, who is associated with time). The people of Tamriel remember different, mutually-exclusive versions of history, all of which happened simultaneously, and even the passage of time itself is suspect and unreliable. Eventually, the Dragon Break ends and the timelines merge back together again, leaving a muddled period of history and a very confused population.

I thought that this was an ingenious, fourth-wall-mutating way of handling it. Oblivion didn't need this kind of treatment, as it didn't really have much in the way of decision-making (at least not in the main quest), but in Skyrim we have the civil war to consider. So my... not really a question, but a talking point I suppose... is, do you think that the next game in the series will have to deal with another Dragon Break? A 'Warp in the North'? Do you think that would be a good way to handle the unresolved threads of Skyrim, or do you think they should look at another means of settling the issue? I do hope they don't gloss over it, though.

My other talking point is a bit more 'out there'. A while ago (and it references the above points quite a lot) I read a series of articles that dealt with the 'metaphysics' of TES. The part I loved the most was the third, which delved into some of Vivec's (of TES III fame) lore and suggested that he was fully aware that he was a character in a video game. It also pointed out that every other Dragon Break in history, with the exception of the one caused by the Hero of Daggerfall (unless the following is true), was caused by someone who ultimately became a god of some kind or another - Tiber Septim, for example. It went on to argue that because of the way Vivec described his own godhood, that the players too, in the universe of TES, were themselves a kind of god because they had access to things like savegames, the Creation Kit, etc, and that Dragon Breaks might actually be caused by players doing things like reloading savegames and pursuing multiple paths. By this logic, Vivec's own powers had actually come from realising that he was in an imaginary world in a similar way without going insane, which granted him access to the same mechanics as the player, even if he described them in terms of TES terminology that he understood. If they do handle Skyrim's branching storyline as a Dragon Break, I wonder if the Last Dragonborn will similarly ascend? I'm not sure if Bethesda has the writing chops to wrangle with existential topics like this any more, though, unfortunately.

Anyway, this is more of a topic of discussion than a question, and a way for me to think out loud I suppose! What are your thoughts? I find it all fascinating!

P.s. I'm sorry if creating a new thread isn't appropriate, but I felt that this was separate from the stickied topic about where the next game will be set.

Haha definitely appropriate :)

I was actually thinking about this just before as I was taking over Whiterun as a Stormcloak. Will Lore dictate that Skyrim remained as part of the Empire or are they now under a separate rule in a fued against the Aldmeri Dominion and Empire..?

I hadn't played Daggerfell so I had no idea about these 'Dragon Breaks' but that is a really fascinating and creative work-around. The whole ascended hero realising he is an animated game is a bit ridiculous for these types of games though IMO! Haha


As for how they deal with it in the next episode, who knows. ESO (I haven't played so I can't really comment) handled Lore pretty poorly so we can only hope that they have learnt from that backlash. Keep in mind though, that the next game may not be after Skyrim events. It may be prior to the civil war or even concurrent. As you progress in the story you may hear about the Stormcloaks of Skyrim gaining ground and so on...

Who knows :p
 
I was actually thinking about this just before as I was taking over Whiterun as a Stormcloak. Will Lore dictate that Skyrim remained as part of the Empire or are they now under a separate rule in a fued against the Aldmeri Dominion and Empire..?

That's exactly the problem! Skyrim is such a key part of the Empire that they can't leave that plot thread hanging. It's not just the civil war though; like, was the Dark Brotherhood destroyed, or did they assassinate the emperor?

But in a Dragon Break, all of them would have happened!

I hadn't played Daggerfell so I had no idea about these 'Dragon Breaks' but that is a really fascinating and creative work-around. The whole ascended hero realising he is an animated game is a bit ridiculous for these types of games though IMO! Haha

Well it kinda adds to the whole 'fourth-wall-mutating' aspect. The Dragon Breaks are already taking the fourth wall and smashing it over our heads - they're literally saying to us, "do you remember how we gave you decisions to make in the last game, and you maybe replayed it to see them all? Well guess what? ALL OF THEM HAPPENED MWUHUAHAHAA!" In a universe like that, that acknowledges the branching paths of the previous games in its own lore, the idea of characters gaining powers by realising that they're part of an imaginary world (not necessarily that it's a video game, just that they're actors in a 'Godhead') isn't that far out there in my opinion.

Like that article points out, the things that Vivec said in Morrowind, and in his 36 Lessons, kinda hint at things that could be construed as game mechanics. He didn't necessarily know he was in a commercial video game called TES III: Morrowind, and so he framed everything he said in TES-speak, but he certainly seemed to be at least somewhat aware that the world he lived in wasn't necessarily real, and as such he gained an understanding of how to manipulate its own mechanisms to his advantage. The article I linked to suggests a few interesting ones. These were my favourites:

“The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world.” – 36 Lessons, Sermon 11

Reloading an earlier save when you die!

“The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength.” 36 Lessons, Sermon 23

Pausing the game to take health potions!

“Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark.”36 Lessons, Sermon 19
&
"Give me back (and do so freely) what is barren of my marriage and I will not erase you from the thought realm of God." -
36 Lessons, Sermon 22

Vivec had access to the Construction Kit, and modded the world for his own benefit! He could even delete characters!

He also seemed to know about things like plot contrivances (like, he killed the original Nerevar as a plot device for the player character), he seemed to know what the player character was (beyond just being the Nerevarine), and all sorts of other fascinating stuff. I really love the way they played with the fourth wall with Vivec. I mean at the end of the day, what is a 'god' if not someone who knows about the true nature of the universe and can therefore manipulate its underpinnings for their own ends?

As for how they deal with it in the next episode, who knows. ESO (I haven't played so I can't really comment) handled Lore pretty poorly so we can only hope that they have learnt from that backlash. Keep in mind though, that the next game may not be after Skyrim events. It may be prior to the civil war or even concurrent. As you progress in the story you may hear about the Stormcloaks of Skyrim gaining ground and so on...

Who knows :p

I think ESO was made by a completely different team than the core Bethesda guys (a new team?), so I'm not too worried about that (and I've skipped it entirely!). I'm more worried about how they handled Fallout 4 to be honest; I found that experience to be much more 'hollow' than all of their previous games.
 
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Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
Ah yes. ... :beermug:

Are you familiar with the concept of CHIM? The TES universe is a dream. The Godhead is the one who dreams. The full realization and knowing of this fact may lead to one achieving CHIM- like Vivec, (it's also possible for one to "zero sum" at this point, winking out of existence as if one never existed at all. Some believe that this is what happened to the Dwemer, but they would likely be incorrect). Vivec became fully aware that life is but a dream and thus became somewhat godlike. I believe Tiber Septim also achieved CHIM.

And yet, even though I have delved deep down the rabbit hole that is TES lore I don't pretend to fully understand it intellectually, but I do enjoy discussing it. :beermug:
 
Ah yes. ... :beermug:

Are you familiar with the concept of CHIM? The TES universe is a dream. The Godhead is the one who dreams. The full realization and knowing of this fact may lead to one achieving CHIM- like Vivec, (it's also possible for one to "zero sum" at this point, winking out of existence as if one never existed at all. Some believe that this is what happened to the Dwemer, but they would likely be incorrect). Vivec became fully aware that life is but a dream and thus became somewhat godlike. I believe Tiber Septim also achieved CHIM.

And yet, even though I have delved deep down the rabbit hole that is TES lore I don't pretend to fully understand it intellectually, but I do enjoy discussing it. :beermug:

Yes! That's what I meant when I said that Vivec was painting his words in TES-speak. He knows 'what' he is, but doesn't have the specific details - he knows he's in an imaginary world, and that gives him power, but he doesn't have the frame of reference necessary to know what a video game even is, much less that he's a character in one. So talk of CHIM and Godheads and other TESy stuff replaces it. There's also a suggestion that Vivec knows what the player character is in Morrowind, so I wonder if the Nerevarine could have ended up like Vivec in the lore, as well as the Hero of Daggerfall, who him/herself was at the heart of a Dragon Break - just like Tiber Septim. The Hero of Kvatch kinda throws a spanner into the works though, as it's heavily inferred that s/he ends up becoming a Daedra. :S

It's all very fascinating to think about! I do miss the Bethesda of those days. I think all of the writers responsible for this meta stuff have long-since departed the company, and it really shows in the quality of their writing over the last few years. :sadface:
 

Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
Indeed, I find myself drawn to the strangeness, the incomprehensibility of TES lore, and it really sets itself apart from other fantasy titles because of this. One can only hope that the next instalment will be the best ever in terms of playability AND lore. I remain optimistic.

Something I was thinking about this morning that could really add to the experience, is the usage of bards. In Skyrim, the bards only knew a few songs at most. What if there were a plethora of songs, a few known by all bards, but many songs exclusive to particular bards? Additionally, bards should not only sing, but tell tales of heroes and battles. I'm the type of gamer who would join a crowd of npc's to listen to such things. Imagine the lore, the mysteries, and as always, the contradictions that might be revealed through such use of bards! :beermug:
 

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