Why is magic so weak in the game?

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LuChao

The Martial artist
I actually enjoy the magic system in the vanilla skyrim just because I couldn't become so OP I guess I'm an old school RPG person where games are always supposed to be a challenge and make you think about what your gonna do to pull a win out of your arse to many people these days are all about one shot this one shot that it seems sadly :sadface: it makes my heart cry itself to sleep at night knowing so many people are looking for the easy kills on the tough bosses
 

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
But won't they get aggro'd if they get hit by a spell? Mine did!
No, they shouldn't. I don't know what follower are you using, but i know NPC's like housecarls, DB initiates,... usualy take 4-5 hits, then they quit following you AND ONLY if you attack them again, they attack you. It's how it's supposed to work. If you are casting rage spells or using some weird mods, joke's on you.
 

Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
I do enjoy lightning storm, but I really can't play as a mage in Skyrim. Why in Nirn's bones would they do away with spell creation??

In Oblivion, it's hard for me not to be some kind of mage, but the effects just look so awful compared to Skyrim's...
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
I actually enjoy the magic system in the vanilla skyrim just because I couldn't become so OP I guess I'm an old school RPG person where games are always supposed to be a challenge and make you think about what your gonna do to pull a win out of your arse to many people these days are all about one shot this one shot that it seems sadly :sadface: it makes my heart cry itself to sleep at night knowing so many people are looking for the easy kills on the tough bosses
That's not "Old School RPG", that's masochism.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
I do enjoy lightning storm, but I really can't play as a mage in Skyrim. Why in Nirn's bones would they do away with spell creation??

In Oblivion, it's hard for me not to be some kind of mage, but the effects just look so awful compared to Skyrim's...
And you thought you could get OP in other ways. With spell creation, mages would end up as OP as they were in Oblivion.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Skyrim had lots of poor "balance" decisions. I mean wtf, the game is already broken, so why add unecessary nerfs or patch exploits in an experience that is supposed to be fueled by player choice?I don't give a fluff what some asinine developer's "vision" for how I'm supposed to get my Action RPG fix. WHY go half measures with balancing- allowing us to break the game but only to a limited extent? For example- WHY don't Master Level Necromancy spells work on ANY target? Etc etc etc. It's bullplops and it has always been something that left a sour taste in my mouth. Either let us go all out and break the game or enforce strict balancing measures to prevent the game from being broken at all. Don't fluff around and be a panzy ass that stops somewhere in the middle and fails at both.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Magic in Skyrim is powerful, it just depends on how you apply it. If you believe your destruction spell isn't as strong as you want it drink a potion that increases destruction spell damage. Followers/summons aren't doing too well? Buff them with illusion. Being a magic user has always required you to use the full range of skills to get the most out of it.

It seems odd to compare base magic with buffed weapons. Be like complaining weapons suck because a base daedric sword does less damage than my buffed up destruction. One of the most overlooked things is your novice spells, many tend to make the mistake of jumping straight for the apprentice/expert+ spells. With the correct perks you can turn flames into dealing 48dps, that is without any potion to increase it further. For the cost to what you can deal in damage, it is highly effective. Also will own those pesky wards that keep blocking your higher level spells.

Firestorm seems weak, only 100 points of damge... To those who are 100ft away from you. It will wreck anything closer to you, and with the flames of terror perk it will send anything barely alive running for the hills.

You won't instantly kill everything as a mage, but when played properly you'll kill everything before it gets close.
 

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
Magic in Skyrim is powerful, it just depends on how you apply it. If you believe your destruction spell isn't as strong as you want it drink a potion that increases destruction spell damage. Followers/summons aren't doing too well? Buff them with illusion. Being a magic user has always required you to use the full range of skills to get the most out of it.

It seems odd to compare base magic with buffed weapons. Be like complaining weapons suck because a base daedric sword does less damage than my buffed up destruction. One of the most overlooked things is your novice spells, many tend to make the mistake of jumping straight for the apprentice/expert+ spells. With the correct perks you can turn flames into dealing 48dps, that is without any potion to increase it further. For the cost to what you can deal in damage, it is highly effective. Also will own those pesky wards that keep blocking your higher level spells.

Firestorm seems weak, only 100 points of damge... To those who are 100ft away from you. It will wreck anything closer to you, and with the flames of terror perk it will send anything barely alive running for the hills.

You won't instantly kill everything as a mage, but when played properly you'll kill everything before it gets close.
Exacly! You put into words that which I could not. Just as expected from intoxicated arch-mage. Thank you!
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Magic in Skyrim is powerful, it just depends on how you apply it. If you believe your destruction spell isn't as strong as you want it drink a potion that increases destruction spell damage. Followers/summons aren't doing too well? Buff them with illusion. Being a magic user has always required you to use the full range of skills to get the most out of it.

It seems odd to compare base magic with buffed weapons. Be like complaining weapons suck because a base daedric sword does less damage than my buffed up destruction. One of the most overlooked things is your novice spells, many tend to make the mistake of jumping straight for the apprentice/expert+ spells. With the correct perks you can turn flames into dealing 48dps, that is without any potion to increase it further. For the cost to what you can deal in damage, it is highly effective. Also will own those pesky wards that keep blocking your higher level spells.

Firestorm seems weak, only 100 points of damge... To those who are 100ft away from you. It will wreck anything closer to you, and with the flames of terror perk it will send anything barely alive running for the hills.

You won't instantly kill everything as a mage, but when played properly you'll kill everything before it gets close.
Magic definitely isn't weak per se, but it is definitely restricted in rather mind boggling ways. The lack of proper damage scaling is the most commonly cited issue and it IS valid. Potions to increase destruction damage do NOT make up for the lack of a proper mainstay method to increase the damage of most spells, it's just a way to make it more bearable. Then there's the Conjuratiom tree I've already mentioned. Necromancy has an arbitrary restriction of "level 40 or lower humanoids" for no good reason. Not to mention the woefully limited range of things that you can actually conjure- even including the dlcs. And even then, unless you're summoning Dremora Lords, they do almost no damage. It's MUCH more effective to simply go in yourself as a warrior most of the time. Sure illusion and alteration have a large amount of utility, but those utilities are usually utilized best as additions to some other form of combat. Illusion for example. The Expert level and below spells become MUCH more effective than the master level spells, and even then you can't break past a certain level (granted that level is a healthy 70 something, but it's still absurd to place a cap on abilities for the sake of balance in a single player experience marketed with emphasis on "player freedom"). Restoration is ironically one of the most broken trees- but not because of what it does as far as magic per se, but because the necromage perk is absurdly powerful with Vampire characters.

I don't think anyone here really believes that magic is useless, however it is DEFINITELY a problem that magic is laughably weak damage wise and only really stands out as a utility to be used in combination with playstyles that are far more effective- such as melee or archery. Sure you can talk it up for all its strengths, and it's true, it does have a lot of strengths, but it doesn't negate the fundamental problems people brought up in this thread.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Magic definitely isn't weak per se, but it is definitely restricted in rather mind boggling ways. The lack of proper damage scaling is the most commonly cited issue and it IS valid. Potions to increase destruction damage do NOT make up for the lack of a proper mainstay method to increase the damage of most spells, it's just a way to make it more bearable.

The issue you're facing isn't scaling damage, you can raise your offensive through perks but it has always required alchemy to go even further. The main issue people face is that the higher your difficulty the more of a bullet sponge enemies become and a Mage's only offensive related to destruction requires magicka which isn't unlimited unless you mess around with enchanting.

If you want insane damage you need to aim for dps rather than a solid instant hit or stun lock a foe.

A Mage isn't a main damage dealer, while you can do quite a lot of damage destruction is more of a secondary tool to mop up or play on weaknesses. Aspect of terror works wonders.

Then there's the Conjuratiom tree I've already mentioned. Necromancy has an arbitrary restriction of "level 40 or lower humanoids" for no good reason. Not to mention the woefully limited range of things that you can actually conjure- even including the dlcs.

I'll be the first to jump up and down and say where my summons at, but they're not useless. Even a level 40 undead you can buff to insane measures. Especially when you actually remember to enchant all their stuff.

And even then, unless you're summoning Dremora Lords, they do almost no damage. It's MUCH more effective to simply go in yourself as a warrior most of the time. Sure illusion and alteration have a large amount of utility, but those utilities are usually utilized best as additions to some other form of combat.

Summons/followers are a mages form of combat. Buff your allies, hinder your enemies. That is what a mage does.

Illusion for example. The Expert level and below spells become MUCH more effective than the master level spells, and even then you can't break past a certain level (granted that level is a healthy 70 something, but it's still absurd to place a cap on abilities for the sake of balance in a single player experience marketed with emphasis on "player freedom"). Restoration is ironically one of the most broken trees- but not because of what it does as far as magic per se, but because the necromage perk is absurdly powerful with Vampire characters.

Novice fury can affect up to level 62 with dual cast and correct illusion perks. I've never run into anything I couldn't cast illusion on except a dragon. The necromage perk is powerful no matter what, while it is awesome for vampires it also still makes you destroy the undead.

I don't think anyone here really believes that magic is useless, however it is DEFINITELY a problem that magic is laughably weak damage wise and only really stands out as a utility to be used in combination with playstyles that are far more effective- such as melee or archery. Sure you can talk it up for all its strengths, and it's true, it does have a lot of strengths, but it doesn't negate the fundamental problems people brought up in this thread.

Magic has never been a heavy hitter, not even in previous games unless you break the spell crafter. There is acceptable damage, and even what I feel some overpowered dps you can achieve. Magic has always meant to be used in combination with other playstyles or using every school as a Pure Mage.

Destruction has always been a utility, the very role of a magic user is versatility.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
In Oblivion, it's hard for me not to be some kind of mage, but the effects just look so awful compared to Skyrim's...

Even in Oblivion being a Mage wasn't about the combat. Was about all the other things you could do.

I just loved doing the jedi mind tricks.

"I'm not telling you anything, piss off"

*hit with spell*

"HI FRIEND, IT IS SO AMAZING TO SEE YOU, LET ME TELL YOU MY LIFE STORY WITH THIS HUGE GRIN ON MY FACE".
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Magic definitely isn't weak per se, but it is definitely restricted in rather mind boggling ways. The lack of proper damage scaling is the most commonly cited issue and it IS valid. Potions to increase destruction damage do NOT make up for the lack of a proper mainstay method to increase the damage of most spells, it's just a way to make it more bearable.

The issue you're facing isn't scaling damage, you can raise your offensive through perks but it has always required alchemy to go even further. The main issue people face is that the higher your difficulty the more of a bullet sponge enemies become and a Mage's only offensive related to destruction requires magicka which isn't unlimited unless you mess around with enchanting.

If you want insane damage you need to aim for dps rather than a solid instant hit or stun lock a foe.

A Mage isn't a main damage dealer, while you can do quite a lot of damage destruction is more of a secondary tool to mop up or play on weaknesses. Aspect of terror works wonders.

Then there's the Conjuratiom tree I've already mentioned. Necromancy has an arbitrary restriction of "level 40 or lower humanoids" for no good reason. Not to mention the woefully limited range of things that you can actually conjure- even including the dlcs.

I'll be the first to jump up and down and say where my summons at, but they're not useless. Even a level 40 undead you can buff to insane measures. Especially when you actually remember to enchant all their stuff.

And even then, unless you're summoning Dremora Lords, they do almost no damage. It's MUCH more effective to simply go in yourself as a warrior most of the time. Sure illusion and alteration have a large amount of utility, but those utilities are usually utilized best as additions to some other form of combat.

Summons/followers are a mages form of combat. Buff your allies, hinder your enemies. That is what a mage does.

Illusion for example. The Expert level and below spells become MUCH more effective than the master level spells, and even then you can't break past a certain level (granted that level is a healthy 70 something, but it's still absurd to place a cap on abilities for the sake of balance in a single player experience marketed with emphasis on "player freedom"). Restoration is ironically one of the most broken trees- but not because of what it does as far as magic per se, but because the necromage perk is absurdly powerful with Vampire characters.

Novice fury can affect up to level 62 with dual cast and correct illusion perks. I've never run into anything I couldn't cast illusion on except a dragon. The necromage perk is powerful no matter what, while it is awesome for vampires it also still makes you destroy the undead.

I don't think anyone here really believes that magic is useless, however it is DEFINITELY a problem that magic is laughably weak damage wise and only really stands out as a utility to be used in combination with playstyles that are far more effective- such as melee or archery. Sure you can talk it up for all its strengths, and it's true, it does have a lot of strengths, but it doesn't negate the fundamental problems people brought up in this thread.

Magic has never been a heavy hitter, not even in previous games unless you break the spell crafter. There is acceptable damage, and even what I feel some overpowered dps you can achieve. Magic has always meant to be used in combination with other playstyles or using every school as a Pure Mage.

Destruction has always been a utility, the very role of a magic user is versatility.
Point 1: That's your personal interpretation of what a mage should be. In ano RPG such as Skyrim it shouldn't be up to a single player to determine what a mage should or shouldn't do. I do not believe stopping the Mage from being a viable DPS build is a positive, it's an unecessary constraint especially when you HAVE to use Alchemy to come close to what other builds can do in damage without it. Combat becomes abysmally slow and tedious when you're against a difficult opponent.

Point 2: I never said they were weak or useless. Conjuration is extremely effective and the couch warrior works extremely effectively. It's just very slow. And yes you can upgrade their gear, but that still doesn't negate the fact that the level and creature type constraints are limiting and anti fun. Why can't I Dead Thrall a Sabre Cat?

Point 3: It's part of what a lot of classes can do, and once again, your definition of what a mage should be and should do is not the end all be all.

Point 4: Once again, never claimed it was weak and even stated that it worked on practically everything. My point is that it should not have a maximum level ceiling. Necromage is nice against the undead but it's also superfluous most of the time for that purpose. Using it as a Vampire is where it completely outclasses almost every single other perk in terms of non-redundant usefuleness.

Point 5: I haven't played previous games, so I'll take your word for it. But just because it never has been doesn't mean it never should. There should be conventions to at least allow for massive single target damage to match a melee or ranged strike. Magic doesn't even get stealth modifiers (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long time). What you feel is overpowered DPS absolutely pales in comparison to what even a basic melee or ranged build can achieve, unless I'm forgetting or missing something.

Magic has enough utility in its other schools. Destruction should do what it says in the name and destroy things.

Extra Point: The only valid reason I can think of to keep destruction's damage lower is to keep the AI from decimating unexpecting and less masochistic players with it, as NPC destruction spells are already absurdly deadly to the player if they aren't rocking heavy magic resistance.
 

Papoy

DON'T EXPECT SPOILER WARNINGS FROM ME
Sorry to butt in, but I cant help but to agree with Gidian, too. Kinda two-sided opinion I got here.
Say, when you play a mage, you see foes as guinea pigs, while as warriors you see them as punch bags, no? My point is similiar to both of yours. Warrior weapon damage vs. Mage destruction magic damage + magica cost. Gap in power is undeniable, but mage can choose the way he wants to slay his/hers foes (and there are many) while warrior can do it only with a weapon of choice. My conclusion, both ways become tedious and repetetive after a while, but with mage, much less so.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
While lacking the damage an assassin can instantly cause, a Mage can stop all enemies on the spot in a constant stun lock rendering them completely unable to react. Calling it weak is not exactly the case, I've not come across any sort of fantasy rpg that has a Mage out damage a rogue.

You also need to take into account that destruction magic does not just go after health. You're just missing the entire point of it if you're looking at the direct damage. The "weakness" you're all disliking is in the way spell damage works in TES.

Fire has two sets of damage, the direct damage and then a secondary damage of burning. It also causes fear. That is powerful, not only are you doing direct damage and a further secondary stack of damage you can make enemies flee the fight.

Lightning hits health + magicka of enemies. You can make dragons unable to do breath attacks or hostile mages unable to cast spells. With the perks you completely remove 15% of everyones health. No longer exists when using lightning to attack. How on earth is that weak?

Frost targets health + stamina, you're making enemies unable to do any power attacks or shield bashes etc. Throw in the fact you're slowing them down to a crawl and on top of that can paralyze them.

You have AoE spells that can go after several enemies at once. I've wiped out an entire fort by bouncing chain lightning off my storm atronachs.

You're too busy looking at direct damage and calling it weak, rather than taking into account everything it does on top of it. The purpose of every single magic school is to control the flow of battle, destruction has always been a utility of any class that uses it.

Playing a Mage isn't like playing a sneaking archer or a tanking warrior, it is about knowing how to use the skills you have. It is only as weak as you make it.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
While lacking the damage an assassin can instantly cause, a Mage can stop all enemies on the spot in a constant stun lock rendering them completely unable to react. Calling it weak is not exactly the case, I've not come across any sort of fantasy rpg that has a Mage out damage a rogue.

You also need to take into account that destruction magic does not just go after health. You're just missing the entire point of it if you're looking at the direct damage. The "weakness" you're all disliking is in the way spell damage works in TES.

Fire has two sets of damage, the direct damage and then a secondary damage of burning. It also causes fear. That is powerful, not only are you doing direct damage and a further secondary stack of damage you can make enemies flee the fight.

Lightning hits health + magicka of enemies. You can make dragons unable to do breath attacks or hostile mages unable to cast spells. With the perks you completely remove 15% of everyones health. No longer exists when using lightning to attack. How on earth is that weak?

Frost targets health + stamina, you're making enemies unable to do any power attacks or shield bashes etc. Throw in the fact you're slowing them down to a crawl and on top of that can paralyze them.

You have AoE spells that can go after several enemies at once. I've wiped out an entire fort by bouncing chain lightning off my storm atronachs.

You're too busy looking at direct damage and calling it weak, rather than taking into account everything it does on top of it. The purpose of every single magic school is to control the flow of battle, destruction has always been a utility of any class that uses it.

Playing a Mage isn't like playing a sneaking archer or a tanking warrior, it is about knowing how to use the skills you have. It is only as weak as you make it.
I never said destruction magic was useless. I fully understood that it has its utility and I am well aware of what all of those abilities can do. But they're slow to kill compared to any other style of play that isn't gimping itself for challenge. Basically what you're saying is Destruction magic is good CC, when CC might be fun but is inferior to the ultimate CC effect: Death.

Stunlocking is nice. Fear is nice. Removing the last 15% is nice if you get them that far down, and the magicka drain is nice if for some reason you don't have magic resistance. Frost is nice if you need to slow them down. Alteration is better for paralyzing, especially considering you can get a staff super early if you know where to look. All of these things are just nice. Not great, but nice. Stunlocking is boring if you have to stunlock something over and over again for awhile. Fear is nice against a large group of weaker enemies but even then you're definitely not going to lose that fight with other builds. Removing the last 15% is still slow unless you use alternate builds to get them down and lightning to finish them. Magicka drain is nice but unecessary with proper resistances. You also don't need to prevent them from healing if you have good damage. Frost is useful because the slow effect and paralyze is always nice but once again, it's far more effective to cut out the middle man and just kill them.

No, I'm not. I'm taking into account the full picture and seeing that it can do lots of nice CC effects but if you decide to use it as a main playstyle, it's going to take a lot longer to kill anything than other builds. My point isn't that it shouldn't have utility or that that utility is useless (even if it is FAR less effective than a conventional build, making you take more time and effort to complete the same tasks). My point is that it should have accommodations to allow it to actually do good damage. Citing a fort as a place where you cleared it with one attack is WEAK because if it was Imperial Soldiers or Stormcloaks, they're some of the weakest enemies in the game. Bandits would be far more impressive and even then it would be hyperbolic to say you were able to one shot high level bandits with a single spell. And even bandits are complete non-threats. A Mage has the advantage of better crowd control over a melee fighter or ranger, so they can probably deal with larger groups easier until they run out of gas, but they're not going to drop any but the weakest of them at any real speed.

This is like the Vampire Lord or Werewolf argument. The Vampire Lord has lots of innate advantages that make it stupidly easy to play compared to the Werewolf, but also extremely one dimensional and simple. Whereas the werewolf might offer a more complex and lively playstyle due to the higher difficulty and layers of strategy you have to use to overcome powerful opponents. In this case, conventional builds are the straightforward, simple and easy but more effective Vampire Lord, whereas the Mage's comparative lack of efficiency for flavor is more akin to the Werewolf.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I never said destruction magic was useless. I fully understood that it has its utility and I am well aware of what all of those abilities can do. But they're slow to kill compared to any other style of play that isn't gimping itself for challenge. Basically what you're saying is Destruction magic is good CC, when CC might be fun but is inferior to the ultimate CC effect: Death.

Killing things with a Mage is as fast or slow as the situation you're in. We've all just about played the game for quite a long time, and we've all been in long slugging match as a warrior, or archer etc. A Magic user is simply another form of style, it doesn't make it weaker or stronger.

You're comparing two entirely different things and don't like how they don't equal the same results.

Stunlocking is boring if you have to stunlock something over and over again for awhile.

So is sneak archery, so is button mashing. You don't need to stunlock something over and over, it is a highly effective way of disrupting enemy attacks.

Fear is nice against a large group of weaker enemies but even then you're definitely not going to lose that fight with other builds.

Fear is good against several tough enemies, it completely removes them from the fight for 15+ seconds. Giving you, your follower/summons to mop up.

it's far more effective to cut out the middle man and just kill them.

It's far more effective to play as a sneak, max min assassin character. It's more effective for me to resto loop my swords to max damage, my enchantments to unlimited stamina, health, magicka & carry weight. That isn't why people choose to play as Mages, people play as them because it offers a unique style and challenge.

No, I'm not. I'm taking into account the full picture and seeing that it can do lots of nice CC effects but if you decide to use it as a main playstyle, it's going to take a lot longer to kill anything than other builds. My point isn't that it shouldn't have utility or that that utility is useless (even if it is FAR less effective than a conventional build, making you take more time and effort to complete the same tasks). My point is that it should have accommodations to allow it to actually do good damage.

It does fine damage, I've never encountered this issue you seem to be going on about. Your point is that as a Mage you don't do as much instant damage as a sneak archer/warrior. So what? It still does allow you to do great damage should you wish, it is called perks and using alchemy. It isn't a weakness, but a different way of playing the game.

Citing a fort as a place where you cleared it with one attack is WEAK because if it was Imperial Soldiers or Stormcloaks, they're some of the weakest enemies in the game. Bandits would be far more impressive and even then it would be hyperbolic to say you were able to one shot high level bandits with a single spell. And even bandits are complete non-threats.

It's an example of numbers, and actually using something to your advantage. Bouncing spells off your summon. The main attraction of a Mage isn't outright damage, and don't complain to me that you can't do a lot of damage. Expert destruction spell you can do 250 direct damage, a further 25% if they're undead. Throw in alchemy and you sure as plops can one hit high level bandits.

A Mage has the advantage of better crowd control over a melee fighter or ranger, so they can probably deal with larger groups easier until they run out of gas, but they're not going to drop any but the weakest of them at any real speed.

When played correctly, you're not going to have much of a problem once you figure out unique ways of handling every situation.

Like how the wolf summon you get, is one of if not the best spell to have when fighting a dragon.
 
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Ok here is what I have noticed in magic between Dark Souls/Demon Souls and Skyrim games

Skyrim

Supplemental spells are more useful
Offensive magic far weaker than buffed weapons

Dark Souls
Offensive magic is great like firestorm very much OP
Supplement magic is weak

Overall the way the Souls games use magic is far better than Skyrim.
 

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