Dragonborn Canonicity and the Faction Quests

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Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
Should we assume that when one completes a faction questline, that history will show that it was the Dragonborn that performed the deed? For instance, if post Skyrim canon remembers that the Dark Brotherhood assassinated Emperor Titus Mede II in 4E 201, must it have been our protagonist that did the deed? After all, it is a quest one does for the DB, but why would it have to be the Dragonborn that does it? Can this quest not be completed without evoking Dragonborn powers?

Must it be the Dragonborn that averts the Winterhold crisis? That becomes Harbinger of the Companions? That resurrects the Thieves Guild? Or, might any of these events have occurred anyway, with or without the help of the Dragonborn?

The only questline that absolutely cannot be fulfilled by anyone other than the Dragonborn, is the main quest. This includes obviously Season Unending, whereby our Dragonborn negotiates an uneasy peace between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Only the Dragonborn can do this. I propose that canon will reflect exactly this, and will go a step further by uniting these opposing forces against the Thalmor, defeating them. This is the Dragonborn's other purpose, the initial calling being to stop the World Eater. Season Unending, as a quest, is completely redundant otherwise.

Unification of the Empire and subsequent defeat of the Thalmor might entitle our hero to the Imperial throne- in the absence of an Emperor- say, if the Emperor was assassinated by the Dark Brotherhood. Now we've come full circle. Just because you're the one who does it in the game, does that mean that someone else might not have still assassinated the Emperor at a later time. The contract will be out, regardless. :beermug:
 
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Lady Redpool the Unlifer

Pyro, Spirits Connoisseur, and Soulless Anarchist
Alright, addressing this in as concise a manner as I am capable:
There are 2 instances where you, the player character, are absolutely the only person who can complete certain faction quests:
The Companions. Kodlak see you in a dream. YOU. The player character. That is what propels you through the ranks and what spurs on the events of the quest line. That means that the player character IS the eventual harbinger of the companions if we accept the quest lines events as canonical.
The Dark Brotherhood. Here's the thing about this. The Brotherhood is currently operating on rumors and stories. It works for them, but it won't work for killing the emperor. The man who takes out that contract performs the black sacrament in absolute secret because if anyone found out, it would endanger his position as an imperial councilman. The Dark Brotherhood never would have heard about this contract. They never would have assassinated the emperor. The only way they know about it is because the night mother knows and told the listener. The night mother chose the player character. She was waiting for YOU. Without you, the player character, the dark brotherhood doesn't know of the contract, and would not assassinate the emperor.

Now, the college of Winterhold could have been completed by any apprentice, and the Thieves guild could have been resurrected by anyone who walked into Riften and was a little dishonest. Notably these are the two factions you are almost forced to interact with as part of the main quest. I feel that the Dragonborn was still involved with both, and the histories will show that because of their interactions with the main quest.

On to the Dragonborn uniting the causes and possibly becoming emperor. I don't buy it. Ulfric won't rejoin the empire. He can't. The empire has turned their back on Skyrim and the Nords in his mind and they are a bigger threat than the Thalmor(though not by much). The only way to reunite the empire is to defeat the Stormcloaks. Even without uniting both sides, and maybe if the Dragonborn reunited the empire by defeating the Stormcloaks, I still don't think that the Dragonborn would be able to lay claim to the throne. The Dark Brotherhood quest line shows that the council has designs for keeping the power in the emperor's absence. I don't believe that the Dragonborn could gain enough political influence in the imperial city to make a claim on the throne. The throne of Skyrim? Certainly. Emperor? No

One quick note here: There IS a reality where the Dragonborn doesn't kill the emperor. The one where the Dark Brotherhood doesn't either. Would someone else do it? Maybe. The person or people who did it would most likely sieve the power though. It does little to change the Dragonborn being unable to rise to the throne.
 

sticky runes

Well-Known Member
I'm not an elder scrolls expert by any means, this is just my opinion.

I reckon destroying the dark brotherhood would be canon. It just seems kind of weird to me that an assassin would take up the quest to save the world from dragons. Maybe he or she does it to ensure the dark Brotherhood can still function (after all, who would need assassins in a world where anyone could be killed by a dragon at any minute) it could be an interesting angle, but the way it plays out in the game seems kind of off to me. And having a fighting style that involves shouting loud enough to blow people off mountains and knock dragons out of the sky doesn't exactly suit an assassin who sneaks around in the shadows. So to me, becoming leader of the dark brotherhood seems non-canon.

Becoming leader of the thieves guild doesn't seem very dragonborn like to me either, but then, the game does not give us the option to put down the thieves quild, and it even tries to get us to talk to Brynjolf when we need to find Esbern in Riften (I always ignore him and ask Keerava instead). I would prefer if the Thieves Guild was non-canon, but it seems quite likely that it is canon. Imagine people years later saying "that legendary dragon slayer was also a thieving gypo!"

The mage college is quite interesting because you can either travel there as an aspiring student, or present yourself as the dragonborn and use your thu'um to get in. It would be interesting if the history books did reveal that the dragonborn studied at the college and saved winterhold from catastrophe.

Companions seems quite likely because they are a warrior based guild and they seem suitable for the armoured Dragonborn figure that appears on the Skyrim cover art. and Vilkas and Farkas ask you to fight dragons with them so it could be that they tie in with the main storyline.
 

Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
Just for arguments' sake, the acquisition of power through conquest is and has been a path to the throne. Would Ulfric ever serve the Empire again? If the Dragonborn were Emperor, yes. If we assassinate Mede II, other key players within the Elder Council could also be removed to pave this path. This is me conceding that our Dragonborn did the killing himself. It actually makes more sense that way for one who would covet power.

Yet, I'm also conceding the impossibility of that scenario being canon. Our games' heroes fade into obscurity rendering my argument moot. :beermug: But what of Season Unending? Can we foresee that as being the canon outcome? Or do you envision a different scenario- @Red I believe you mentioned in another thread that you see the Empire falling, (correct me if I'm wrong); anyone else?
 

Lady Redpool the Unlifer

Pyro, Spirits Connoisseur, and Soulless Anarchist
Just for arguments' sake, the acquisition of power through conquest is and has been a path to the throne. Would Ulfric ever serve the Empire again? If the Dragonborn were Emperor, yes. If we assassinate Mede II, other key players within the Elder Council could also be removed to pave this path. This is me conceding that our Dragonborn did the killing himself. It actually makes more sense that way for one who would covet power.

Yet, I'm also conceding the impossibility of that scenario being canon. Our games' heroes fade into obscurity rendering my argument moot. :beermug: But what of Season Unending? Can we foresee that as being the canon outcome? Or do you envision a different scenario- @Red I believe you mentioned in another thread that you see the Empire falling, (correct me if I'm wrong); anyone else?
Season Unending is a temporary truce. It's only supposed to last until the Dragonborn deals with Alduin. Once the fate of the world isn't in danger, the war is back on.

As for where I see the empire falling: It has little to do with Skyrim.
The empire currently consits of High Rock, Cyrodil, and Skyrim. At least half of Skyrim doesn't see the empire as beneficial, or necessary. Wether the empire wins the civil war or not, you have a divide and a lack of support. You have dissent. You have a populace that doesn't take up arms the next time the elves are knocking on your doorstep to south. Without Hammerfell, and with a lack of support from Skyrim, I don't see the empire holding out. They barely survived the first great war. If the elves came in force again, the empire would crumble.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Everything happens. What the player hero gets up to, probably not much beyond Main quest and Dragonborn DLC.

Would Ulfric ever serve the Empire again? If the Dragonborn were Emperor, yes. If we assassinate Mede II, other key players within the Elder Council could also be removed to pave this path. This is me conceding that our Dragonborn did the killing himself. It actually makes more sense that way for one who would covet power.

No, Ulfric would never serve the Empire nor the Dragonborn. The player character doesn't have any claim or support for something such as taking the Ruby Throne. If Titus II had no heir before his father died, nor after 33 years as Emperor then the Empire would have something in place in the event of his death (He is rather old).

The Council will hold a full session, if they're unable to locate any memeber of the Mede family then the Lord High Chancellor would become Potentate.

The Emperor dying doesn't really impact much, if anything it is a good thing.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Question: I've played through a number of times and had absolutely nothing to do with being Dragonborn or using shouts after the intitial Dragon Rising item. I didn't even consider myself Dragonborn and thought those that thought I was were just a bunch of loons.

In that case, couldn't the Dragonborn simply be somebody else canonically and you, the PC, be somebody else entirely? Even the Greybeards say that you may not be the only Dragonborn.

Just my take on it. (confidentially, I do this ALOT with my mage characters)
 

Kohlar the Unkilled

Time for some ale
Question: I've played through a number of times and had absolutely nothing to do with being Dragonborn or using shouts after the intitial Dragon Rising item. I didn't even consider myself Dragonborn and thought those that thought I was were just a bunch of loons.

In that case, couldn't the Dragonborn simply be somebody else canonically and you, the PC, be somebody else entirely? Even the Greybeards say that you may not be the only Dragonborn.

Just my take on it. (confidentially, I do this ALOT with my mage characters)
Good. That's what I was trying to get at. Somebody does those things and completes those quests- even when it must be the PC that does so, that doesn't mean it's the Dragonborn.
 

Lady Redpool the Unlifer

Pyro, Spirits Connoisseur, and Soulless Anarchist
Question: I've played through a number of times and had absolutely nothing to do with being Dragonborn or using shouts after the intitial Dragon Rising item. I didn't even consider myself Dragonborn and thought those that thought I was were just a bunch of loons.

In that case, couldn't the Dragonborn simply be somebody else canonically and you, the PC, be somebody else entirely? Even the Greybeards say that you may not be the only Dragonborn.

Just my take on it. (confidentially, I do this ALOT with my mage characters)
Good. That's what I was trying to get at. Somebody does those things and completes those quests- even when it must be the PC that does so, that doesn't mean it's the Dragonborn.
Except it does. Helgen still happens to the PC. Alduin calls you out right then and there. Your character IS the Dragonborn, even if in that playthrough you don't acknowledge it, trigger it, or RP it, that doesn't change what your character is, even if they don't know they are.

And no, mods cannot be taken into account to remove Helgen, because then we're discussing non-Bethesda produced work, which makes it non canonical.
 

sticky runes

Well-Known Member
If I'm playing a non-Dragonborn, I still stay open to the possibility that my character might become Dragonborn at some point in the future, but he has things that are more important to focus on right now, whether it's studying magic or seeking Dwemer artifacts or putting restless dead back to sleep or becoming thane of a hold, marrying my hot follower and buying a house together. So I don't completely rule out the idea of becoming dragonborn even if I've been playing for hundreds of hours without facing a single dragon since Helgen. I consider my non-Dragonborn play through to be sort of a prequel to the game's canon story. At some point, my character's escape from Helgen, reports of distant dragon attacks from homeless farmers and those weird blurry words on the walls will all come together.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Question: I've played through a number of times and had absolutely nothing to do with being Dragonborn or using shouts after the intitial Dragon Rising item. I didn't even consider myself Dragonborn and thought those that thought I was were just a bunch of loons.

In that case, couldn't the Dragonborn simply be somebody else canonically and you, the PC, be somebody else entirely? Even the Greybeards say that you may not be the only Dragonborn.

Just my take on it. (confidentially, I do this ALOT with my mage characters)
Good. That's what I was trying to get at. Somebody does those things and completes those quests- even when it must be the PC that does so, that doesn't mean it's the Dragonborn.
Except it does. Helgen still happens to the PC. Alduin calls you out right then and there. Your character IS the Dragonborn, even if in that playthrough you don't acknowledge it, trigger it, or RP it, that doesn't change what your character is, even if they don't know they are.

And no, mods cannot be taken into account to remove Helgen, because then we're discussing non-Bethesda produced work, which makes it non canonical.
Actually @Red, this post confuses me. While I can see that you might infer that Alduin was there for the Dragonborn, as I've played through Helgen more and more, I have kind of dismissed that.

As I said in another post, the Greybeards make it clear that your PC may, or may not, be, not only the Dragonborn,, that there may even be others now or in the future. While the lore states that the Imperial Emperors discouraged any sort of belief in such a thing, there is nothing saying that Akatosh may not grant the blessing to more than one at a time. I mean, honestly, in Oblivion, the Emperor was obviously Dragonborn - but what about his two sons and the bastard? It's not like your ability to use the voice is unique. Ulfric, after all, can use it as well. He used it to kill Toryyg.

As I read over the prophecy I remember the translation from the Elder Scroll of:

"When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world
When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped
When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles
When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls
When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding
The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn."

And from the Song of the Dragonborn:

"And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold,
That when brothers wage war come unfurled!
Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound,
With a hunger to swallow the world!"


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Book_of_the_Dragonborn
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Song_of_the_Dragonborn#Lyrics

I don't necessarily read it as a direct reference to you as an individual. Particularly the part of the the song with "brothers wage war", the confrontation you see in Helgen between Telius and Ulfric could, and probably is, the first time that Ulfric has been directly accused of: "You started this war... Threw Skyrim in to chaos..." by the Empire through its representative (Telius). As I see it, that particular, highly charged, moment, could very well have been what drew Alduin to Helgen in the first place, not you, a pathetic prisoner about to be executed who has no idea of his or her potential.

Just my opinion. I could very well be wrong. It's just the way I see it.

As a matter of fact, I often ignore the whole "Dragonborn" thing on many of my characters that are not just straight up Imperials or Nord warriors as Dragonborn. There is just no lore to support any other race being so (I do think there was some mention of a mer or 1/2 mer somewhere in ancient history though, but a Khajit or an Argonian? That doesn't make any sense - they're not even followers of the same pantheon).

Obviously you need to embrace it if you want to be a completionist, but, sometimes, it's just the way I play.
 
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