Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Davian

Member
All empires rise and fall. So shall the Cyrodiilic. So shall the Dominion.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!

If you are too weak to hold onto one province, you are too weak to hold together an empire.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
All empires rise and fall. So shall the Cyrodiilic. So shall the Dominion.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!

If you are too weak to hold onto one province, you are too weak to hold together an empire.

I don't believe being attacked by basically a godly aspect that cannot be killed in the mortal world by anyone except the Dragonborn of prophecy, and could only be wounded then finished off in the realm of Aetherius equates to being too weak. Empire had all but defeated the rebellion until Alduin.

Empire hasn't thrown its weight around in the Civil War, the main strength of the Legion and the Empire's attention is down on the Dominion's border on the brink of a second Great War.

Were it a conventional uprising, they'd already be dead. It took the Legion only a few short months to capture Ulfric.
 

Davian

Member
All empires rise and fall. So shall the Cyrodiilic. So shall the Dominion.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!

If you are too weak to hold onto one province, you are too weak to hold together an empire.

I don't believe being attacked by basically a godly aspect that cannot be killed in the mortal world by anyone except the Dragonborn of prophecy, and could only be wounded then finished off in the realm of Aetherius equates to being too weak. Empire had all but defeated the rebellion until Alduin.

Empire hasn't thrown its weight around in the Civil War, the main strength of the Legion and the Empire's attention is down on the Dominion's border on the brink of a second Great War.

Were it a conventional uprising, they'd already be dead. It took the Legion only a few short months to capture Ulfric.
A good army expects, and is prepared for, the unexpected. But then I guess if the Empire could take on the dragons, either we wouldn't have a game to enjoy, or TESV would have played out entirely differently, at the very least.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
A good army expects, and is prepared for, the unexpected. But then I guess if the Empire could take on the dragons, either we wouldn't have a game to enjoy, or TESV would have played out entirely differently, at the very least.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!

Dragons by themselves the Legion can handle as it is mentioned anytime they move their forces it attracts dragons. So can the Stormcloaks I assume, the dragons cause problems and drain resources/manpower to take down.

Alduin is another matter entirely, he cannot be harmed by normal means. Hence why all the soldiers are shouting "Why can't we kill this thing?", they're hitting him with arrows and fireballs from Battlemages. I wouldn't expect the Legion to be prepared for the World-Eater to attack them, in saying that, they recovered very quickly trying to get the situation under control. Ordering the civilians to safety and Tullius holding the line until the soldiers and civilians could retreat.
 
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General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
All empires rise and fall. So shall the Cyrodiilic. So shall the Dominion.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!

If you are too weak to hold onto one province, you are too weak to hold together an empire.

I don't believe being attacked by basically a godly aspect that cannot be killed in the mortal world by anyone except the Dragonborn of prophecy, and could only be wounded then finished off in the realm of Aetherius equates to being too weak. Empire had all but defeated the rebellion until Alduin.

Empire hasn't thrown its weight around in the Civil War, the main strength of the Legion and the Empire's attention is down on the Dominion's border on the brink of a second Great War.

Were it a conventional uprising, they'd already be dead. It took the Legion only a few short months to capture Ulfric.
A good army expects, and is prepared for, the unexpected. But then I guess if the Empire could take on the dragons, either we wouldn't have a game to enjoy, or TESV would have played out entirely differently, at the very least.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!
The Empire has survived A LOT worse than the mere return of Dragons. Though they are still troublesome, I'm sure the Empire can last much longer than a War-torn country.
 

Davian

Member
I thought of a clean, war-free solution to this whole argument.
In the real world, Montenegro peacefully split from Serbia in 2006 via referendum (a major contrast to the previous bloodshed of the Yugoslav wars in the region).

Similarly, could not Skyrim declare independence through referendum, and simply declare itself an ally to the Cyrodilic Empire? Talos worship would remain disallowed in the remainder of the Empire, but the WGC would not be violated, as Skyrim would be independent of the Empire.

That's what a smart Dragonborn would do! Force the Legion and the Stormcloaks to accept a truce, negotiate a peaceful separation for the Nordic people, and get back to the real threat - the Aldmeri Dominion.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
I thought of a clean, war-free solution to this whole argument.
In the real world, Montenegro peacefully split from Serbia in 2006 via referendum (a major contrast to the previous bloodshed of the Yugoslav wars in the region).

Similarly, could not Skyrim declare independence through referendum, and simply declare itself an ally to the Cyrodilic Empire? Talos worship would remain disallowed in the remainder of the Empire, but the WGC would not be violated, as Skyrim would be independent of the Empire.

That's what a smart Dragonborn would do! Force the Legion and the Stormcloaks to accept a truce, negotiate a peaceful separation for the Nordic people, and get back to the real threat - the Aldmeri Dominion.
Not a good solution. Regardless of alliance, the Thalmor WILL be there doing what the Thalmor do best. Hell, the people of Skyrim would be so desperate and torn that the Thalmor can do something to frame the Empire and the people of Skyrim would believe them.

I'm not secluding the Nords because literally EVERY other race has done this, but do you know how unpredictable and violent a War-torn desperate Skyrim would be if cut loose? They would probably either invade Morrowind or Hammerfell out of desperation for land and supplies. Bandit's numbers would increase immensely due to the lawlessness and the Jarls being too stretched thin to do anything about it. The Forsworn are going to take advantage of all of this and the people would fall into disarray and eventually Anarchy. During this time, the Aldmeri Dominion would seize the moment of weakness and take Skyrim, therefor leaving Cyrodiil wide open for for a Flank attack.

Seems like a good idea...
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I thought of a clean, war-free solution to this whole argument.
In the real world, Montenegro peacefully split from Serbia in 2006 via referendum (a major contrast to the previous bloodshed of the Yugoslav wars in the region).

Similarly, could not Skyrim declare independence through referendum, and simply declare itself an ally to the Cyrodilic Empire? Talos worship would remain disallowed in the remainder of the Empire, but the WGC would not be violated, as Skyrim would be independent of the Empire.

That's what a smart Dragonborn would do! Force the Legion and the Stormcloaks to accept a truce, negotiate a peaceful separation for the Nordic people, and get back to the real threat - the Aldmeri Dominion.

Not anymore. Ulfric killing Torygg ended any possibility of peaceful removal from the Empire, the High King was interested in hearing more about independence when Ulfric brought it up at the Moot. Instead, Ulfric killed the man who represented the Emperor and the Empire in Skyrim.

Were the Empire to give the Stormcloaks what they want at this point would put the other provinces, including Cyrodiil at risk of revolt against the Ruby Throne. Ulfric forced the Emperors hand, and sealed the fate of his allies as enemies of the Empire. Prior to killing High King Torygg the Empire did not involve itself in the internal politics of Skyrim while the Holds had minor skirmishes for the last several years.

The last thing the Empire wanted was to deal with an uprising, they're focused on restoring Cyrodiil and taking the fight to the Aldmeri Dominion. Besides the political situation of having to respond to Torygg's assassination, the Imperials firmly believe the Thalmor are behind the uprising. Which they are absolutely correct, the Thalmor stirred up trouble and are indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks in their war against the Western Holds.

Even if the Empire released Skyrim, the situation is politically unstable. Not every Jarl wants Ulfric as High King, and Ulfric will continue his war until every single Hold declares their loyalty to him. Ulfric only made a temporary truce with the Empire due to world possibly ending, and even the petty war still is more important in those talks. Were Ulfric to accept some deal to become High King he would lose a good deal of his supporters and make the war-torn province of Skyrim even worse.

Stormcloak victory itself is a gamble, the conflicting nature of Nords works against them. The Nord people never remain united for long, and they go back into internal fighting or form two rival kingdoms. The wounds of the Civil War will be felt for many years to come, Nords hold long grudges that can last generations. Not since the First Era have they been able to remain a united province.
 
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Davian

Member
According to speculation I have read on other boards, most people believe that the canon ending to the war will result in Stormcloak victory and further destruction of the Empire, leading into the next Elder Scrolls game, where the Dominion have conquered much of Tamriel regardless. Why be on the wrong side of history?

General, I was inclined to agree with you, but apparently you hold the same views as a drunken mage. Typical Imperials. Can't hold their mead, can't hold onto Skyrim. Perhaps you could if all of Cyrodiil's forces were there, but you're in a bit of a bind, aren't you? Leave Skyrim to the Nords, and let what happens happen. I think we both agree that there are bigger threats on the horizon.

Let's also ignore the idea that the Thalmor ignited this civil war by demanding the outlawing of Talos worship. It was always their goal to divide man against man. But just as in the real world, we are letting differences of religious belief divide us. We have to unite against a common enemy, and I know you think a united, strong Empire can do that, but given that they have abandoned so many of their provinces already, I don't think they are the best ones to lead a coalition of provinces against the Thalmor.

Milk drinker logic. There's an oxymoron.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Really? You gave me a Disagree Pin? Way to be rude and ruin my board. Also, instead of providing a valid argument in response to both of our posts, you instead refer to irrelevant theories from other people, fall back to the ever so common "In-Character" stupidity and then end it off with "Let's just unite." and then say the Empire is not the best ones to do that. Make up your mind, quit falling back into character and don't give someone a negative Pin because you disagree with them. That kind of childish behavior ended about two years ago and people have respect now.

Thanks.
 

Wauten Dayhil

Demon Hunter and Wordplay Extraordinaire
You're one to talk about childish antics, Xander. If you can't handle a simple pin, perhaps you shouldn't be around them where they can poke you with their sharp, board-ruining little spikes. Regardless of his reasoning, he didn't fall back on the old "you have no real argument, so you use other arguments" argument. That argument is perhaps a worse fall-back plan, considering it gives even fewer points to back it up and solidify your claim(s).

EDIT: And then you go and give him a negative pin because of what he did? How are you being the bigger man in this?
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
You're one to talk about childish antics, Xander. If you can't handle a simple pin, perhaps you shouldn't be around them where they can poke you with their sharp, board-ruining little spikes. Regardless of his reasoning, he didn't fall back on the old "you have no real argument, so you use other arguments" argument. That argument is perhaps a worse fall-back plan, considering it gives even fewer points to back it up and solidify your claim(s).

EDIT: And then you go and give him a negative pin because of what he did? How are you being the bigger man in this?
I merely said that his Pining was rude. Isn't coming here with no indication other than to provoke a person who had a talk with someone earlier (who was not you) childish?

"you have no real argument, so you use other arguments" argument."
I never said he did that at all. I said he didn't make a valid argument to match the original post and used a strategy that some people use here which is to be "in character", which makes any retaliating argument irrelevant to them. Not that he used anyone else's.

Finally, I never gave him a Negative Pin. At all. This reinforces my theory that you just came here to provoke out of spite. Thanks for clearing that up. And you call me childish.
 

Davian

Member
Okay - seems I stirred a hornet's nest here. I thought this was all in good fun.

Please keep in mind that I only joined this board a couple of weeks ago. Please also keep in mind that this is a video game that we are arguing about.

I had no idea that a simple Disagree pin carried with it the weight of a criminal record on this board, which is what you seem to be implying, Xander.

For a general, you need to have better command of your own faculties before wading into an argument.

Typical milk-drinker drivel.

And by the way, in case you still cannot tell, that last statement there? That's called trolling. In character. I would not insult you in person in real life. I don't know you as a person. But in the context of this message board, which is - again - focused on a made-up world, I think that all the teasing made in that manner should be regarded as what it is - fantasy role playing.

No wonder the Empire loses so many wars...
 
Well, I choose the Imperials. They're asses, true. But the Stormcloacks, if you look into the facade of the cool sounding name, they're Nord supremacists as well as religious fanatics who want war just for the sake of it, without having a little care about their "homeland"'s (sheesh, they're not even natives of Skyrim, but of Atmora) fate if the Thalmor conquered it. Oh, and add to that the systemic ethnic cleansing they've shown towards the true natives of Skyrim, the Reachmen and the migrant dark elves and Argonians (the poor lizard people are practically slaves, living in dinghy ghettoes outside of the city and working away with almost no pay). They're like the cross of American colonists from Europe and Al Qaeda-esque religious fanatics. Pretty scary, if you think about it.
 

hholme21

New Member
Stormcloaks. Obviously. The civil war quest line is a direct copy of the history of the American Revolution. The stormcloaks are the Americans, the empire is England, and the forsworn are the native Americans (getting screwed, as per usual). As I'm an American, I CANT SUPPORT LITERAL IMPERIALISTS. The founding fathers would be so disappoint. Also, kinda sick of the argument that they are all racists. a) they let you join no matter what race you are, b) Ulfric is literally the only Jarl to actually invite the dark elves into the city after the Red Mountain disaster (seriously, where else is there a refugee population in skyrim?) c) they totally trade and live with non nords, a high elf at that. Also the stormcloaks because Ulfric stormcloak has that great speech and one of the best voice actors in the game.

And a final point, yes, the Thalmor wanted Ulfric to get loose can cause trouble, but they also said they didn't want him to win the civil war either. They wanted a constant stalemate, which if the dragonborn intervenes, they don't get. Plus, I figure that the Empire and a liberated Skyrim would be willing to team up against the Thalmor should it come to war (in a similar fashion to how England and America mended their bridges quickly after the revolutionary war). The Stormcloaks just want the freedom to govern themselves, which is something every society deserves, the freedom to decide their own destiny.

Also, why can't you join the forsworn? That drives me crazy, you should be able to join them, and maybe you can make deals with either the Imperials or the Stormcloaks to assist them in the war and gain land in payment or something (again, like in the revolutionary war).
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
According to speculation I have read on other boards, most people believe that the canon ending to the war will result in Stormcloak victory and further destruction of the Empire, leading into the next Elder Scrolls game, where the Dominion have conquered much of Tamriel regardless. Why be on the wrong side of history?

Given that the Stormcloaks rely on Ulfric and he does in fact die 50% of the time in-game. The Empire could fall in the next TES game, or it won't. Everyone has their own opinion on what will be the next canon, and Bethesda very rarely stray from the main quest when they reference past events.

What I see as the most likely canons is Skyrim will be ignored, mentioned to be having infighting, that the Redguards or Dunmer took advantage of a weak Skyrim in order to enact revenge for centuries of border invasions.

As to "why be on the wrong side of history?" There is no wrong side, both the Empire and Stormcloaks have the same goals in mind just with different methods. I may support the Empire in this current faction vs faction, but I wouldn't care one way or another. Personally I'd like to see the Colovian Estates spring up again.

Let's also ignore the idea that the Thalmor ignited this civil war by demanding the outlawing of Talos worship.

Talos worship wasn't what sparked the outbreak. Talos has been outlawed for twenty six years, what turned Ulfric against the Empire was his arrest and his father dying.

It was always their goal to divide man against man.

Their stated goal is the return of a New Merethic Era. Turning the Nords against each other is to keep the Empire and Skyrim distracted from the main threat.

Stormcloaks. Obviously. The civil war quest line is a direct copy of the history of the American Revolution.

No it isn't.

The stormcloaks are the Americans, the empire is England, and the forsworn are the native Americans (getting screwed, as per usual).

The Empire is Skyrim. Skyrim itself has a large amount of political power within the Empire, in fact they've had Imperial leadership by the balls at times in getting their way.

Skyrim has had an easy ride in the Empire for centuries

I CANT SUPPORT LITERAL IMPERIALISTS. The founding fathers would be so disappoint.

The Nords are about as Imperialist as the Imperials.

b) Ulfric is literally the only Jarl to actually invite the dark elves into the city after the Red Mountain disaster (seriously, where else is there a refugee population in skyrim?)

Ulfric invited refugees into the city 185 years ago... Did he invent the wheel too?

The Stormcloaks just want the freedom to govern themselves, which is something every society deserves, the freedom to decide their own destiny.

Stormcloaks =/= Nords. If Stormcloaks wanted to govern themselves, they'd split the province. Not attack the Western Holds so they could conquer them and force everyone to accept Ulfric as the King. Ulfric wouldn't allow the Moot to meet until everyone supported him, in case he lost the vote to become High King.

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

Also, why can't you join the forsworn? That drives me crazy, you should be able to join them, and maybe you can make deals with either the Imperials or the Stormcloaks to assist them in the war and gain land in payment or something (again, like in the revolutionary war).

1) The original Stormcloaks slaughtered the Forsworn when they attempted to form their own kingdom, they were seeking recognition from the Empire at that time.

2) The Stormcloaks plan to enslave all the Forsworn to dig up silver to bring them wealth. So getting assistance and giving them land would not go down well.

3) Forsworn don't like the Empire much either, they tend to lump everyone together.
 
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Davian

Member
Unless you magically kill all the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim, there will always be a resistance to the Empire from any Nord who wishes to be able to freely worship Talos. This is exactly what is happening in real-life in Afghanistan.

Unless the forces fighting against the mujahideen literally killed anyone and everyone whose beliefs mirror the mujahideen, as well as anyone who in the future might decide to take up the cause, you cannot get rid of the mujahideen.

I'll say this again, because you milk drinkers obviously aren't getting it.

ALL. EMPIRES. FALL.

So shall the Dominion, and so shall the Cyrodilic Empire. Guerilla tactics will outlast traditional militaries unless the military adopts a scorched earth policy - in which case, there will be no Tamriel to live in. Even then, underground pockets of resistance may still exist. Gelebor alludes to the fact that isolated pockets of snow elves could likely exist. So too would Stormcloak sympathizers in the event of an Imperial victory in the civil war.

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS. [/thread]
 

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