Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Imperials are more of a good guys (Laughs) then the Stormcloaks? Are you serious? I assume Ulfric Stormcloak is the evil one here, right? The Adolf Hitler of Skyrim because of the incident between the Dark elves (coughcoughDunmers) and the Argonians? Stormcloaks are considered the Nazis is what I am gathering up here.

How did you get to Nazi's from his post? Suggested nothing of the sort. Most see the Empire as good because their views on the greater good and what is considered an acceptable sacrifice aligns with the Imperials, rather than accepting the sacrifice made siding with the Stormcloaks.

The Empire is weak, both in government and military wise, and so why should other countries like Skyrim stay loyal to them?

Even a weakened Empire is far stronger than an independent Skyrim that has just suffered Civil War and Dragons returning. The Imperial Government is one of, if not the most stable of Tamriel all things considered. (Lasting Eras with a few minor bumps). The Nords are the worst race when it comes at uniting, and when they manage to do so it rarely lasts long. Even during the alliance wars they were a divided province.

Military weakness in the Empire doesn't mean as much as it would if Skyrim had military weakness. The Empire's military weakness would generally mean they can't field every single Legion at peak strength, although what we do hear from them is that they're tied down at the Aldmeri Dominion border and escorting trade throughout Cyrodiil,even preparing to march into Skyrim once Pale Pass is cleared. They must have a fairly sizable force, then throw in the mercenaries and conscripts.

Shouldn't the Nords of Skyrim be allowed to self govern themselves?

Nords of Skyrim =/= Stormcloaks. The Stormcloak uprising does not represent the Nords of Skyrim, many Nords stand against them.

To be more independent like Solstheim?

Solstheim is an island outpost that the Dunmer control theoretically, beyond Raven Rock they haven't the means to enforce their authority. Raven Rock still greatly depends on mainland Morrowind, even after all the quests. So using them as an example is a poor one as they depend on the mainland, and it is only a single mining town as opposed to an entire province.

How can the Empire protect their Imperial citizens when they themselves cannot protect themselves?

They do a fairly okay job at defending the large majority of their citizenry.

They must bargain with the Aldmeri Dominion (Thalmor) by granting them even more power and authority over the Imperial citizens through a treaty.

Power to ensure the Empire upholds their end of the Concordat, nothing more.

What will the Empire do next to please their Elven masters?

Invade the Aldmeri Dominion.

grant the Thalmor the power to exterminate or enslaved the Nords like they did with the blades?

The Blades were officially disbanded. The Thalmor do not have the authority to hunt down the Blades by the Empire's blessing, the Thalmor do that in secret as they have done for two hundred years. Considering how easily the Blades were wiped out prior and during the Great War, I'd say they're hardly worth the crying over. They decided to do their own thing, rather than work with the Imperial Government against the Thalmor in the early years of the Dominion.

Yeah the Empire is certainly the good guys here :D Lokir might tell you a cool story about it :)

Lokir was a horse thief who stole from the citizens of Eastmarch. Someone has to provide justice for them, because Ulfric sure won't. Stealing a horse isn't a minor thing, that horse could mean the livelihood of a family or settlement.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
What's interesting about this is the number of people giving up their American citizenship because of all the new taxes and crazy decisions being made without representation.

If anything, Ulfric would never join any 'Empire'. He would stay home and clean up his own country. And anyone whose been paying attn to what's been going on in Finland, Norway and especially Sweden knows those countries need help. Very badly in need of new leadership because clearly EU Imperialism is now going beyond corrupt.
The Imperials are invading Scandinavia? That's amazing! Where did they even get the time traveling space ship to get there?

Also, aren't they a little chilly with arctic breezes blowing up their leather skirts?


So then, according to you Sweden is not a Nordic country with domestic issues such that parallel Skyrim's?

Furthermore, frankly I'm shocked that nothing else has been said because Ulfric took such a strong stance against immigration and Imperialism.

Do as I say, not as I do no?
What? I hope this has nothing to do with what I said as that wouldn't make any sense. I said Scandinavia, which includes Sweden, Norway, Denmark and usually, but not always, Finland.

BTW: I am Norwegian & Swedish so your response honestly made no sense to me.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
The Imperials are invading Scandinavia? That's amazing! Where did they even get the time traveling space ship to get there?

Also, aren't they a little chilly with arctic breezes blowing up their leather skirts?


So then, according to you Sweden is not a Nordic country with domestic issues such that parallel Skyrim's?

Furthermore, frankly I'm shocked that nothing else has been said because Ulfric took such a strong stance against immigration and Imperialism.

Do as I say, not as I do no?
What? I hope this has nothing to do with what I said as that wouldn't make any sense. I said Scandinavia, which includes Sweden, Norway, Denmark and usually, but not always, Finland.

BTW: I am Norwegian & Swedish so your response honestly made no sense to me.


I don't care. lolz

That's not my problem. If you don't... won't or for some reason can't get it then don't reply about it. Let it go. I've done this lots of times before. You keep saying, "it doesn't make sense", over and over and over again. There's an old trick with that, if you keep saying it enough times it sticks.

What you failed to mention is "what" doesn't make sense. You know exactly what I'm saying or else why try so hard to say it doesn't make sense? By using 'it' (or just saying my response) so many times, this means you know what it is and whatever it is, is something you don't agree with or something you can't comprehend.

DrunkenMage and I don't ever agree on anything but at least he identifies substance in an argument and and breaks it down for further analysis. He doesn't just say, "Oh that doesn't make sense" and then the Universe magically agrees with him. Or perhaps it does... we don't know.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
The Imperials are invading Scandinavia? That's amazing! Where did they even get the time traveling space ship to get there?

Also, aren't they a little chilly with arctic breezes blowing up their leather skirts?


So then, according to you Sweden is not a Nordic country with domestic issues such that parallel Skyrim's?

Furthermore, frankly I'm shocked that nothing else has been said because Ulfric took such a strong stance against immigration and Imperialism.

Do as I say, not as I do no?
What? I hope this has nothing to do with what I said as that wouldn't make any sense. I said Scandinavia, which includes Sweden, Norway, Denmark and usually, but not always, Finland.

BTW: I am Norwegian & Swedish so your response honestly made no sense to me.


Here let me try this with you. *Clears throat*

Where? I hope you weren't replying to my last post, because that wouldn't be sensible. I said Skyrim, which is a land based on Nordic cultures in 'the real world'.

BTW: I am a Superior bred Mer living now in the United States, so your response made no sense to me because I don't like you and I don't like what you're saying because it makes Ulfric look bad and paint a light on the cultural genocide of an entire race of people who lives in Scandinavia. That does not make sense and was not a nice thing to say.

I can't handle it, I can't have a respectable argument about it with someone else so it makes no sense and your responses makes no sense.


LONG LIVE THE ALDMERI DOMINION


There you go ^

Post another reply saying 'it' makes no sense to you so I can keep this going for a while. Have a 3 day weekend coming up, have all the time in the world to play troll ball. At least until I get banned. XD
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
It really just depends on what you feel like. I do tend to agree with some of the users above and think that the Imperials are more of the good guys, so I would go with them because everyone wants to root for the good guys right? In terms of any benefits from joining one over the other it has pretty much the same so not a big deal there.



The Imperials are more of a good guys (Laughs) then the Stormcloaks? Are you serious? I assume Ulfric Stormcloak is the evil one here, right? The Adolf Hitler of Skyrim because of the incident between the Dark elves (coughcoughDunmers) and the Argonians? Stormcloaks are considered the Nazis is what I am gathering up here.

The Empire is weak, both in government and military wise, and so why should other countries like Skyrim stay loyal to them? Shouldn't the Nords of Skyrim be allowed to self govern themselves? To be more independent like Solstheim? How can the Empire protect their Imperial citizens when they themselves cannot protect themselves? They must bargain with the Aldmeri Dominion (Thalmor) by granting them even more power and authority over the Imperial citizens through a treaty. What will the Empire do next to please their Elven masters? grant the Thalmor the power to exterminate or enslaved the Nords like they did with the blades?

Yeah the Empire is certainly the good guys here :D Lokir might tell you a cool story about it :)


Would you look at that? That does NOT make sense Raijin. You do not make since. Look at THAT. It does not make tents. That has nothing to do with what rz3300 said and you are not making cents man.

BTW: I live Portland, Oregon, yet like to argue with people who have actually lived in Skyrim and have family that live there, so your argument does not make cements.

Holy sh8t this is awesome. Screw trying to reach out to people. From now on, I'm going to just mess with everyone who offers an argument that offends me.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
So then, according to you Sweden is not a Nordic country with domestic issues such that parallel Skyrim's?

Furthermore, frankly I'm shocked that nothing else has been said because Ulfric took such a strong stance against immigration and Imperialism.

Do as I say, not as I do no?
What? I hope this has nothing to do with what I said as that wouldn't make any sense. I said Scandinavia, which includes Sweden, Norway, Denmark and usually, but not always, Finland.

BTW: I am Norwegian & Swedish so your response honestly made no sense to me.


I don't care. lolz

That's not my problem. If you don't... won't or for some reason can't get it then don't reply about it. Let it go. I've done this lots of times before. You keep saying, "it doesn't make sense", over and over and over again. There's an old trick with that, if you keep saying it enough times it sticks.

What you failed to mention is "what" doesn't make sense. You know exactly what I'm saying or else why try so hard to say it doesn't make sense? By using 'it' (or just saying my response) so many times, this means you know what it is and whatever it is, is something you don't agree with or something you can't comprehend.

DrunkenMage and I don't ever agree on anything but at least he identifies substance in an argument and and breaks it down for further analysis. He doesn't just say, "Oh that doesn't make sense" and then the Universe magically agrees with him. Or perhaps it does... we don't know.
Uhm... I don't even normally post in this thread. I was just checking in. My comment was a joke about cold wind and leather skirts. What does that have to do with anything. Why are you being insulting? BTW "lolz" does not mitigate your being an a**hole.

Watch it. You want a flame war, I'll be happy to go to bat.

Your little Mr. barely ever posts. I can see why.
 

Yol Goraag Kaazah

Zu'u Yol Goraag Kaazah! Faas zey!
The Stormcloaks
If you don't know their are two sides, the Stormcloaks, who are rebelling against the Empire to become independent, and the Imperials who are trying to keep Skyrim as part of the Empire. Both sides have their pros and cons, I personally support the Stormcloaks, but I feel a lot of misinformation has been spread about the them, Ulfric in particular. So I wanted to post this article to explain why those reasons are untrue.

"Ulfric & the Stormcloaks are racist".

Probably the most common argument against the Stormcloaks. But what if I told you this argument was actually wrong? Well, let's go over it shall we? Let's start with the Gray Quarter, most people think that Ulfric forces all of Windhelm's Dunmer to live in the slum known as the Gray Quarter. But with some research you would realize this to be quite untrue. The Dunmer are not forced to live anywhere. The live in nanny for the Cruel-Seas, and the owner of the Hlaalu farm do not. If Ulfric truly wanted to segregate them why do two Dunmer not live there? Consider this, the Dunmer probably moved to Windhelm right after the eruption of the Red Mountain or the Argonian invasion. Both of witch happened before Ulfric was Jarl. So they must've lived in the Gray Quarter before Ulfric was in power. For whatever reason it must've fallen apart and became what it is today. You might be thinking, "Why doesn't Ulfric fix it?" He's in the middle of a war, it's a rebellion fighting an Empire, it's not going to be easy. Another reason is if they did ruin it on their own, it's not Ulfric's responsibility to fix it. If they destroyed it on their own, why would the Jarl have to spend tax payers dollers to fix something that's not even city property? The next is the Argonians, I actually don't think they are completely forbidden from entering the city. It's never said they can't go in at all? It's just said they can't live in it. Maybe they can't live in it because their is no room. Do you know four empty houses in Windhelm they could move into? Also, Shahvee bought an amulet of Zenithar. Where would she have gotten that from? Inside the city perhaps? Finallly, the Khajiit Caravans aren't allowed in any cities, Stormcloak or Imperial. So you can't just blame the Stormcloaks for that.

"Ulfric just wants to be High King".

This is actually a baseless assumption for the most part. Because nothing in the game shows this. He actually has shown to be the opposite. Just the way I have seen him acting towards Galmar has shown that to me. You could give the argument that he's faking it, but why? Galmar is his second in command, I don't think he would have to hide much from him. I feel that this is a very weak argument with little to no basis in reality.

"Ulfric cheated in his duel with Torygg because he used the Thu'um to murder Torygg".

What people fail to realize is that it doesn't matter how Ulfric won the duel. It was supposed to show that if the High King couldn't protect himself, how was he supposed to protect Skyrim? Ulfric, a Jarl could do that better then Troygg, a High King. Which shows that Ulfric deserved the position more then Torygg. If someone is trying to hurt Skyrim, they aren't going to try and be fair. They're going to try and destroy it. You as High King should be able to protect it from that.

"The Stormcloaks don't stand a chance against the Dominion".

First of all, the Nords have been fighting Elves for years. Why would the Dominion be any different? Most would say, "the whole Empire couldn't beat them, how would only the Nords do it?". Actually, though the Empire was wounded, the Dominion was also very weakened. Their main general was killed and every soldier in Cyordiil. That was one of the largest armies ever assmbled in Elven history. And since Elves reproduce slower, they would probably have a much harder time recovering. Hammerfell alone was able to beat them, and they were just as hurt as Cyordiil from the Great War, they also had a civil war between the Crowns and the Forbears before that. So Hammerfell was not in a good position and yet they still beat the Dominion. Why can't Skyrim? Also, they could make an allaince with Hammerfell and the two of them could work together. Also, the Stormcloaks offered High Rock an allaince, they didn't instantly reject them which shows that they might be thinking about it. These three nations would put up one hell of a fight for the Dominion.

I don't think I need to go on.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
The Stormcloaks
If you don't know their are two sides, the Stormcloaks, who are rebelling against the Empire to become independent, and the Imperials who are trying to keep Skyrim as part of the Empire. Both sides have their pros and cons, I personally support the Stormcloaks, but I feel a lot of misinformation has been spread about the them, Ulfric in particular. So I wanted to post this article to explain why those reasons are untrue.

"Ulfric & the Stormcloaks are racist".

Probably the most common argument against the Stormcloaks. But what if I told you this argument was actually wrong? Well, let's go over it shall we? Let's start with the Gray Quarter, most people think that Ulfric forces all of Windhelm's Dunmer to live in the slum known as the Gray Quarter. But with some research you would realize this to be quite untrue. The Dunmer are not forced to live anywhere. The live in nanny for the Cruel-Seas, and the owner of the Hlaalu farm do not. If Ulfric truly wanted to segregate them why do two Dunmer not live there? Consider this, the Dunmer probably moved to Windhelm right after the eruption of the Red Mountain or the Argonian invasion. Both of witch happened before Ulfric was Jarl. So they must've lived in the Gray Quarter before Ulfric was in power. For whatever reason it must've fallen apart and became what it is today. You might be thinking, "Why doesn't Ulfric fix it?" He's in the middle of a war, it's a rebellion fighting an Empire, it's not going to be easy. Another reason is if they did ruin it on their own, it's not Ulfric's responsibility to fix it. If they destroyed it on their own, why would the Jarl have to spend tax payers dollers to fix something that's not even city property? The next is the Argonians, I actually don't think they are completely forbidden from entering the city. It's never said they can't go in at all? It's just said they can't live in it. Maybe they can't live in it because their is no room. Do you know four empty houses in Windhelm they could move into? Also, Shahvee bought an amulet of Zenithar. Where would she have gotten that from? Inside the city perhaps? Finallly, the Khajiit Caravans aren't allowed in any cities, Stormcloak or Imperial. So you can't just blame the Stormcloaks for that.

"Ulfric just wants to be High King".

This is actually a baseless assumption for the most part. Because nothing in the game shows this. He actually has shown to be the opposite. Just the way I have seen him acting towards Galmar has shown that to me. You could give the argument that he's faking it, but why? Galmar is his second in command, I don't think he would have to hide much from him. I feel that this is a very weak argument with little to no basis in reality.

"Ulfric cheated in his duel with Torygg because he used the Thu'um to murder Torygg".

What people fail to realize is that it doesn't matter how Ulfric won the duel. It was supposed to show that if the High King couldn't protect himself, how was he supposed to protect Skyrim? Ulfric, a Jarl could do that better then Troygg, a High King. Which shows that Ulfric deserved the position more then Torygg. If someone is trying to hurt Skyrim, they aren't going to try and be fair. They're going to try and destroy it. You as High King should be able to protect it from that.

"The Stormcloaks don't stand a chance against the Dominion".

First of all, the Nords have been fighting Elves for years. Why would the Dominion be any different? Most would say, "the whole Empire couldn't beat them, how would only the Nords do it?". Actually, though the Empire was wounded, the Dominion was also very weakened. Their main general was killed and every soldier in Cyordiil. That was one of the largest armies ever assmbled in Elven history. And since Elves reproduce slower, they would probably have a much harder time recovering. Hammerfell alone was able to beat them, and they were just as hurt as Cyordiil from the Great War, they also had a civil war between the Crowns and the Forbears before that. So Hammerfell was not in a good position and yet they still beat the Dominion. Why can't Skyrim? Also, they could make an allaince with Hammerfell and the two of them could work together. Also, the Stormcloaks offered High Rock an allaince, they didn't instantly reject them which shows that they might be thinking about it. These three nations would put up one hell of a fight for the Dominion.

I don't think I need to go on.


While I care not for the politics of man, I would like to comment on one thing. The Dominion's deployed army in Cyrodiil was exhausted and the deployed army in Hammerfall was turned because so many AD forces was redirected towards the war effort in Cyrodiil, which was because that general foolishly changed the plan, which was never to conquer Cyrodiil.

The Dominion isn't really 'weak' per say, their infrastructure is still in tact and civilian life for the most part uninterrupted. It's just going to take time for them to get another army together. Keep in mind, just the deployed forces failed due to tension and stressed because the general didn't stick to the plan. Next time, seeing what they're up against, AD forces will undoubtedly adopt a better strategy.

Sometimes less is more.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Empire is on the brink of war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they are in a far superior position than that of the Stormcloaks which not only have to rebuild their war torn province to be able to supply any large scale military campaign, they also have to train up an entire military. Not exactly something easily done when you're in the most isolated province in all of Tamriel that has just been ravaged by bandits, dragons and civil war.

The Empire only needs to secure the finishing touches before the next Great War, while the Stormcloaks just now start to prepare. The Stormcloak victory depends solely on the Thalmor not conducting espionage and that the next war is put on hold while they prepare. Also depends on the Nords remaining united and working together for that length of time without an Empire throwing money at them to play nice.

Imperials are securing their flank by creating a staging ground into Morrowind. Protects their rear and opens the way for potential for further expansion and glory.

While you may or may not agree with the point of view the Empire has, they're at least in a better position Military wise, and they're acting strategically not emotionally. Stormcloaks rely solely on Ulfric to remain united, where as the Empire carries on even if Tullius, Rikke and Titus II die. Even if they only controlled Cyrodiil, the Empire is a force to be reckoned with.

Not a matter of if, but when the Imperials attack. They have a constant desire to conquer everything in sight, and are damn effective at it too.
 
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General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
*Pokes the Zombie Thread*

:eek:
 

Al'Tair

This sentence is false
Kind of a long explanation here, just wanted to let you guys know in advance. Also, this is just my point of view.

Personally, I, as a player, think both sides should drop their bullplops and join each other to fight the Thalmor, because they're obviously the real problem here. All provinces should realize this, really. I mean, if that fan theory about the Thalmor wanting to drop the sky on Tamriel to achieve CHIM is correct, well... we have a problem there. And everyone suffers from it.

However, I still chose the Stormcloaks, despite being a Khajiit and hating racists. Here's why:

1. First and foremost, the Stormcloaks are pretty much the first people you meet in the game, and they're generally nicer to you in Unbound than the Empire is. I mean, even Hadvar was kind of condescending when I got to Helgen. ("Your kind always seems to find trouble" <- isn't this a little jerkish too?) So it felt like no matter what side I chose, there would be at least some racism towards my character because he's a Khajiit, and for some reason everyone hates the Khajiiti people, so there's that. There's also the matter that that jerk of a captain sentenced you to death for no reason whatsoever. I know the Empire can't take risks, but the Dragonborn was very obviously not with the Stormcloaks, what with being dressed in rags and, in my case, being a Khajiit. If anything, they could have assumed I was a Thalmor spy considering Elsweyr's allegiance in the war. And even if it is because the player was trying to cross the border illegally, who the hell chops illegal immigrants' heads off without even a freaking trial? That was just the Empire being too lazy to actually think properly about what to do to you.

2. Ulfric may be a racist jerk, but I feel that at least a part of him is really fighting for Skyrim's freedom. I mean, no doubt his goal is ultimately the throne, but I feel like he really thinks Skyrim's freedom is being robbed by the Empire and the Thalmor. My main reason for thinking this is what he says if you meet him in Sovngarde, but there's also how Rikke regards him as a good person who chose the wrong side, and his "the reason I fight" speech in Windhelm. Besides, he was never a jerk to my character and always treated him with respect, so there's that. I know that the Talos banishment was only really enforced by the Empire after Ulfric started the rebellion, but still.

3. You may excuse me for saying this, but I think that if the Empire has to surrender to the Thalmor, either because they have no support from the rest of Tamriel or because they simply just can't fight them, then it's time for them to step aside or change. They have been crumbling ever since the Oblivion Crisis and are grasping at straws here. I mean, every province is secceding, they are not controlling Tamriel anymore. Hammerfell is bringing the fight to the Thalmor rather successfully, so I wonder, if every other province actually liked the Empire and effectively helped them in the Great War, would they still have lost? Nobody thinks they're worth the hassle anymore, and frankly, I agree. We see their decadence even in their uniforms, which used to be heavy armor made entirely of steel in the past, as seen in Oblivion, and now it's mostly made of leather; as in, Bethesda is showing with this little detail that they are falling apart. Not every province agreed to be part of the Empire in the first place (Black Marsh, for example), Tiber Septim sort of took them by force. Why would they fight for an Empire they never agreed to be in the first place?

Personally, I think the Empire is too weak, and has no popular support from pretty much any of the provinces. There's no chance, in my humblest opinion, they'll be able to pull Tamriel out of this mess. I can easily see the next TES game being about a huge war going on between pretty much all provinces (separately, each on their own) and the Thalmor, with Tamriel completely engulfed by chaos. It's the only direction I can see this going in, frankly. But I digress.

So yeah, mainly, I think the Empire is now too weak to rule Tamriel and their days of glory have passed. I think they should either step aside or change drastically. The problem with stepping aside is, obviously, who would rule in their place? Each province ruling themselves? This would lead to a lot of problems, of course, such as currency, laws, etc. The second option is trying to change the way the Empire rules by listening to their citizens more instead of kinda charging taxes and saying "so yeah, you're part of the Empire. Good for you. Here, have a Tiber Septim cookie." Maybe if they could find a way to please at least most of the provinces, they would have their support in the war instead of everyone just shrugging and saying "eh, fl*ff them."

The soldiers from other provinces who did fight in the war, especially the Nords, must also feel extremely outraged that their people's sacrifices to push the Thalmor back were for nothing when the Emperor signed the Concordat, so there's also that. It is kinda justified, to be honest. How would you feel if your dad, mom or sibling died in the war trying to push back a tyrannical rule only for the ruler of your country to sign a contract that agrees to give your people's rights up? They do have a point.

4. Imperial soldiers are arrogant. When you find a Stormcloak party on the road, they sorta just greet you and go on their merry way. If you find an Imperial party on the road, however, even if you are an Imperial general, they draw their swords on you and tell you to "stand back, citizen, this is official Imperial business." I'm sorry, but I don't have to take that plops from anyone. It doesn't matter if they're Imperial Soldiers ("oooooooh, watch out everyone, we got badasses over here!"), they can't just treat people like that for WALKING PAST THEM ON A COMPLETELY PUBLIC ROAD.

5. Come on, the Empire did try to chop my head off for no damn reason. They didn't even check who they were executing. They didn't even know my name! Is this the sort of treatment their citizens should expect from them?

6. I almost never hold a grudge, but when I do, it grows to almost irrational proportions. Sadly, because of their actions in Unbound, I've developed a grudge against the Empire. I'm also a rebel at heart, so I would naturally be inclined to join the Stormcloaks, especially after what I've just seen at Helgen.

Well, I think I covered everything. Sorry for the long post, I just thought I should explain my reasons for choosing the Stormcloaks. Whatever side you choose, please consider the Thalmor are the real enemy here, and they're up to no good. That's all.

TL;DR: Stormcloaks FTW.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
We see their decadence even in their uniforms, which used to be heavy armor made entirely of steel in the past, as seen in Oblivion, and now it's mostly made of leather; as in, Bethesda is showing with this little detail that they are falling apart.

They're auxiliaries in Skyrim, a militia according to Rikke. The Imperial Army proper is in Cyrodiil tied down on the border of the Aldmeri Dominion locked in a cold war before the next Great War kicks off. It is heavily suggested in game that the Empire and Dominion are about to go at it again. So realistically it would be odd having the best equipped soldiers on the wrong side of Tamriel away from the main threat.

What Legions are in Skyrim are all mostly locally recruited, or probably from skeleton garrisons that remained when the Legions marched south to the border. Though I wouldn't exactly call their uniforms signs of "decadence" as the Empire does make use of light infantry.

Oblivion's heavy armor is the way it is most likely due to it being the capital of the Empire and home of the Emperor/Elder Council. Skyrim's Imperial armor looks closer to what it was in TES III Morrowind.

4. Imperial soldiers are arrogant. When you find a Stormcloak party on the road, they sorta just greet you and go on their merry way. If you find an Imperial party on the road, however, even if you are an Imperial general, they draw their swords on you and tell you to "stand back, citizen, this is official Imperial business." I'm sorry, but I don't have to take that pl*** from anyone. It doesn't matter if they're Imperial Soldiers ("oooooooh, watch out everyone, we got badasses over here!"), they can't just treat people like that for WALKING PAST THEM ON A COMPLETELY PUBLIC ROAD.

Both sides threaten you if you linger. It is more of a gameplay oversight than arrogance. What they're actually supposed to do when you're an Imperial Legate is salute you (some of them do it correctly). Can be immersion breaking, but something you have to get used to from Bethesda games and factions you join unless you use a mod to fix it.
 
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Davian

Member
I typically play as a Nord, but that is not the simple reason why I usually side with the Cloaks.

All empires, fictional or real, rise and fall; Cyrodiil's is no different. After giving up on the province of Hammerfell, abandoning Morrowind, and outright losing Elsweyr and Valenwood, the Cyrodillic Empire has shown nothing but cowardice, in my eyes.

Hammerfell alone fought off the Aldmeri Dominion after being abandoned. While I do not believe Skyrim is solely home to the Nords, I do believe its people have the right to worship the man-become-god who is Talos.

Even when I played as races other than Nords, the worst that Galmar says negatively to me is "Why does a foreigner/elf want to fight for Skyrim?", to which I usually reply "Skyrim is my home".
"But are you willing to die for it?"
"Yes, yes I am."

Ulfric may or may not be a Nord supremacist. He doesn't appear to be seeking to outright slaughter the Dunmer (at least in-game). He simply has bigger fish to fry. At least that's my perspective.

The Thalmor, on the other hand, are certainly Altmer supremacists, and are going full Hitler, with their "Nord beast! All men will die or serve the Dominion!" crap.

And to paraphrase RDJ from Tropic Thunder, "You never go full (Hitler)."

The dying, milk-drinking Empire can kiss my white Nord ass.
 

Al'Tair

This sentence is false
We see their decadence even in their uniforms, which used to be heavy armor made entirely of steel in the past, as seen in Oblivion, and now it's mostly made of leather; as in, Bethesda is showing with this little detail that they are falling apart.

They're auxiliaries in Skyrim, a militia according to Rikke. The Imperial Army proper is in Cyrodiil tied down on the border of the Aldmeri Dominion locked in a cold war before the next Great War kicks off. It is heavily suggested in game that the Empire and Dominion are about to go at it again. So realistically it would be odd having the best equipped soldiers on the wrong side of Tamriel away from the main threat.

What Legions are in Skyrim are all mostly locally recruited, or probably from skeleton garrisons that remained when the Legions marched south to the border. Though I wouldn't exactly call their uniforms signs of "decadence" as the Empire does make use of light infantry.

Oblivion's heavy armor is the way it is most likely due to it being the capital of the Empire and home of the Emperor/Elder Council. Skyrim's Imperial armor looks closer to what it was in TES III Morrowind.

4. Imperial soldiers are arrogant. When you find a Stormcloak party on the road, they sorta just greet you and go on their merry way. If you find an Imperial party on the road, however, even if you are an Imperial general, they draw their swords on you and tell you to "stand back, citizen, this is official Imperial business." I'm sorry, but I don't have to take that pl*** from anyone. It doesn't matter if they're Imperial Soldiers ("oooooooh, watch out everyone, we got badasses over here!"), they can't just treat people like that for WALKING PAST THEM ON A COMPLETELY PUBLIC ROAD.

Both sides threaten you if you linger. It is more of a gameplay oversight than arrogance. What they're actually supposed to do when you're an Imperial Legate is salute you (some of them do it correctly). Can be immersion breaking, but something you have to get used to from Bethesda games and factions you join unless you use a mod to fix it.

Eh, I hadn't thought about the armor thing like that. You might be right. Anyway, I actually prefer their armor in Skyrim, what with the Roman Legion themes and everything.

But I've never had a Stormcloak party pull out their swords on me. It might be a bug or something, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that never happened to me. (Can't get mods, play on consoles :sadface: )
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Eh, I hadn't thought about the armor thing like that. You might be right. Anyway, I actually prefer their armor in Skyrim, what with the Roman Legion themes and everything.

The armor is more practical than Oblivion which would be near impossible to move in let alone fight in on difficult terrain.

What currently is working to the Stormcloaks favor is the fact Pale Pass is currently blocked, although at the moment there is an Imperial force assembling in Cyrodiil to march into Skyrim once the pass gets cleared.

Ulfric would crumble fairly quickly if the Empire's real strength was able to get at him, what he's facing is barely a finger nail.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..." - Ulfric

But I've never had a Stormcloak party pull out their swords on me. It might be a bug or something, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that never happened to me. (Can't get mods, play on consoles :sadface: )

They do it if you linger long enough, unless they're bugging out. Stormcloaks will even be more hostile towards you if you're neutral for Season Unending as you're counted as "Imperial favored" if you're unbiased in the truce council.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
All empires, fictional or real, rise and fall; Cyrodiil's is no different. After giving up on the province of Hammerfell, abandoning Morrowind, and outright losing Elsweyr and Valenwood, the Cyrodillic Empire has shown nothing but cowardice, in my eyes.

They do indeed rise and fall, this being the Third incarnation of the Imperial Empire. The Empire didn't give up on Hammerfell, they fought there until the last year of the war to mount a last ditch offensive before the Aldmeri conquered Cyrodiil completely. Hammerfell was removed due to them not accepting the White-Gold Concordat, which Skyrim under Istlod could have done too. Even if the Empire had not renounced Hammerfell, the Legion would be unable to offer any assistance being weakened and dealing with all the chaos/destruction within Cyrodiil.

Morrowind wasn't abandoned, it was lost in the Stormcrown Interregnum (seven long year civil war in Cyrodiil over the throne). What the Dunmer say is their perspective, during the Oblivion Crisis it was absolute chaos where Gates opened right in the middle of Legion garrisons. Any orders to retreat weren't officially given and Cyrodiil took the worst of the invasion.

Now the chain of events that caused the Empire to lose their grasp on Morrowind was Red Mountain, the Argonian invasion & the Interregnum. Originally they were blocked by the destruction and once that settled they were stopped by Argonian forces from entering Morrowind and reclaiming the lands overrun. Ocato was assassinated and the Council fractured into Civil War, by the time things were getting back to normal whatever influence the Empire had within Morrowind was long gone.

Elsweyr left the Empire on their own account following the eruption of Red Mountain during Ocato's reign. They were "lost" to the Dominion one hundred years after no longer being an Imperial Province.

Valenwood was lost in a swift and bloody coup, minor and major skirmishes and the Empire got a taste of the Dominion's effective espionage ability they were unprepared for. They did try restore the governments by aiding the Bosmer rebels for many years.

The Empire and Dominion then spent the next 142 years waging a covert war of espionage and assassination. Despite the fact the Empire was attacked by a floating city and hordes of undead assaulting the walls of the Imperial City.

Cowardice wouldn't be the word I'd describe the Third Empire with. Everything they've had thrown at them within the last two hundred years they're still standing, and they still have fight left in them judging by how they're playing their moves.
 

Al'Tair

This sentence is false
Eh, I hadn't thought about the armor thing like that. You might be right. Anyway, I actually prefer their armor in Skyrim, what with the Roman Legion themes and everything.

The armor is more practical than Oblivion which would be near impossible to move in let alone fight in on difficult terrain.

What currently is working to the Stormcloaks favor is the fact Pale Pass is currently blocked, although at the moment there is an Imperial force assembling in Cyrodiil to march into Skyrim once the pass gets cleared.

Ulfric would crumble fairly quickly if the Empire's real strength was able to get at him, what he's facing is barely a finger nail.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..." - Ulfric

But I've never had a Stormcloak party pull out their swords on me. It might be a bug or something, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that never happened to me. (Can't get mods, play on consoles :sadface: )

They do it if you linger long enough, unless they're bugging out. Stormcloaks will even be more hostile towards you if you're neutral for Season Unending as you're counted as "Imperial favored" if you're unbiased in the truce council.

Kinda makes me wonder, if the Empire and the Stormcloaks joined forces, along with the Dovahkiin, who might have also other factions to help them (Companions, College, Dark Brotherhood, Volkihar Vampires/Dawnguard, Thieves Guild, some dragons, the Blades [possibly] and maybe some people in Solstheim) if they would have a better chance against the Thalmor. I kinda wish making everyone, including other provinces, join forces and drive back the Thalmor was an option. Then again, that might be the theme for the next Elder Scrolls game; the hero who made Tamriel get back together and act as one to kick the Thalmor's asses.

It must be a bug then (and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that were the case because well, Bethesda) I always linger a bit and they never pull their swords on me while the Imperial soldiers do it immediately, as soon as I walk past them. Of course, since I had already finished the Civil War by the time Season Unending was supposed to start, there's also that. It might be because I was already on their side, but I don't recall them ever doing that even before I joined them either.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Kinda makes me wonder, if the Empire and the Stormcloaks joined forces, along with the Dovahkiin, who might have also other factions to help them (Companions, College, Dark Brotherhood, Volkihar Vampires/Dawnguard, Thieves Guild, some dragons, the Blades [possibly] and maybe some people in Solstheim) if they would have a better chance against the Thalmor. I kinda wish making everyone, including other provinces, join forces and drive back the Thalmor was an option. Then again, that might be the theme for the next Elder Scrolls game; the hero who made Tamriel get back together and act as one to kick the Thalmor's asses.

Empire are able to defeat the Thalmor, what worked to the Aldmeri's advantage was the element of surprise and the Empire largely being complacent to the threat that faced them. Only a very select few knew of the Thalmor threat, many assumed it was merely exaggerated.

The Legion had military weakness, most likely due to them never fully recovering from the Oblivion Crisis, Stormcrown Interregnum and the Umbriel Crisis, skirmishes within Valenwood etc.

Empire has spent the last near thirty years with one focus in mind, rebuilding and preparing for the next Great War. The Legion is more active than ever with the majority of the Imperial Army being stationed on the Dominion's border, escorting trade shipments and such.

Imperials and Thalmor are not friends, they absolutely hate one another. You see people in this thread talk about how the Empire will do anything for the Thalmor; how they cower, will make new treaties in the future. The only thing Imperials are doing is adhering to the White-Gold Concordat in the most limited sense in where they actually ignore all Talos worship so long as it isn't obvious. Every Legate hints at the next war, including Rikke & Tullius, even the book 'The Great War' hints at the treaty not lasting.

During the war anytime the Legion was able to recover and mount a counter attack they left Dominion forces too weakened and crippled to advance any further, retreating with heavy losses or completely wiped them out to the last Mer.

The Stormcloak rebellion is a few decades late to the party, breaking away from the Empire, wasting thousands of lives and effectively causing majority of the Holds to be so poor they can barely afford to pay their own guards and buy food. All of this on the brink of a Great War. The Thalmor's activities in Skyrim are recent, they are conducting their talos inquisition to send soldiers flocking to Ulfric and to stir up trouble making Skyrim weak.
 

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