Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Balomew

Active Member
Raijin said: "According to the Stormcloaks soldiers dialogue they're not struggling to eat at all. In fact they keep complaining that they're eating too much rabbit, and that their sick of it."

Hah! I'd be complaining, too, if I had to eat so much rabbit meat. It has an aquired taste, perhaps even for Nords.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
According to the Stormcloaks soldiers dialogue they're not struggling to eat at all. In fact they keep complaining that they're eating too much rabbit, and that their sick of it.

They're sick of it because rabbit is all they're getting. It's cheap and you can catch some yourself much easier/cheaper than venison. The only thing that might be cheaper would be stew, but getting the ingredients for one can be hard depending on where you'll have to fight next - besides, if there wasn't meat on the menu chances are many Stormcloaks would desert pretty soon.
 

Balomew

Active Member
^ Hunting elk or deer would result in a lot of meat needing to be dragged around. As for meat on the menu, you must be joking. We're not talking about freelancers here. These Stormcloaks have a passion that binds them to fight for their cause. They won't just desert because they can't get meat. If anything, it might be hard to find suitable edible vegetation in Skyrim. But they wouldn't desert simply because they don't have food. (And why wouldn't they? There are holds friendly to the Stormcloaks, and any forts that have been cleared out contain food and drink. I wouldn't think that they take refuge in forts, though.)
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
According to the Stormcloaks soldiers dialogue they're not struggling to eat at all. In fact they keep complaining that they're eating too much rabbit, and that their sick of it.

Also according to their dialogue they do not want to go back to plowing fields. Thus lies the problem with the Stormcloaks, not only are they stretched way to thin to effectively rule anywhere in Skyrim, they also don't want to return to their old lives as farmers, millers, cobblers etc.

Stormcloaks are a short term solution when it comes down to it, they can't sustain themselves with their ideology of "with us or against us" and they don't want mercenaries to fill whatever gaps appear due to the overall lack of guardsmen.

Windhelm and the rest of Eastmarch are low on manpower, that won't return anytime soon. Not with the Stormcloaks spreading further across the province, losing more soldiers and replacing the Western soldiers they've killed.

But it probably wouldn't matter too much, all the "True Nords" the Stormcloaks rave on about will bite them later on when they fall apart back into infighting.

For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. - PGE, 3rd Ed/Skyrim.

Ulfric would have been better served splitting the province into two kingdoms again.

^ Hunting elk or deer would result in a lot of meat needing to be dragged around. As for meat on the menu, you must be joking. We're not talking about freelancers here. These Stormcloaks have a passion that binds them to fight for their cause. They won't just desert because they can't get meat. If anything, it might be hard to find suitable edible vegetation in Skyrim. But they wouldn't desert simply because they don't have food. (And why wouldn't they? There are holds friendly to the Stormcloaks, and any forts that have been cleared out contain food and drink. I wouldn't think that they take refuge in forts, though.)

Armies don't move fast, not in Skyrim where a lot of the province is harsh and untamed. Dragging around elk and deer wouldn't be harder than dragging around supply trains and materials for camp fires/sieges.

There are deserters on both sides of the Civil War. Some Stormcloaks have a passion, others are also conscripted guardsmen who are sent to fight on behalf of their Jarl.

Of course they would desert if they can't get food. Armies consume a lot of resources, in their camps or on the march. You need to feed your soldiers, feed your beasts of burden and ensure the wounded are taken care of. Not every single one of them are diehards like Galmar, you'll always have your less honorable soldiers.

Forts are supplied by cities they protect. Relying on them having loads of food when you take them would be extremely bad strategy. As for drink... Wouldn't be the first time a large group of Nord soldiers were killed by drinking poisoned wells.

Food and supplies would be taken off civilians a fair bit. "Both the Imperials and Stormcloaks have sent riders this way, scouting the bridge and the lands nearby. They stayed at the inn, but didn't pay. They said soldiers don't need to pay because they're risking their lives to protect us. And that's not all. They took a heap of our lumber, and one tried to have his way with my daughter. They think they can do whatever they want."
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Stormcloaks are a growing militia that is less than 20 years old (I think). It was just recently that they've sky rocked in popularity due to the assassination of High King Torygg. They do not have the luxury of having significant wealth like the Empire has.

The Stormcloaks who:

a) Control the only operating shipping company in all of Skyrim, since the EETC are basically shut down until Rise in the East is completed.

b) Control the most fertile farmlands in all of Skyrim (The Rift) and all the prime hunting in that area.

c) Control Dawnstar known for its rich mines, and a secondary port which would also provide more income and open the way for more trade that is being denied to the Empire's Holds from the pirates bought by the Nord shipping company in Windhelm.

The Empire has wealth, sure. But they're having quite a hard time getting it into Skyrim with the Civil War, the harsh long winter, pirates attacking company ships and Pale Pass completely blocked by an avalanche.

The Stormcloaks should have a clear advantage, the problem is that they suck at management. Their Jarls largely suck too.

And all those mercenaries the Stormcloaks refuse to hire? After awhile they'll turn to banditry... Which they are.

The largest and most organized bandit group in all of Skyrim call Eastmarch home, and are doing basically what the Thalmor are doing (kidnapping people) except they don't care if you worship Talos or not.

"Now every free blade from here to Windhelm wants to sign on for a piece." - Fjola
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Also according to their dialogue they do not want to go back to plowing fields. Thus lies the problem with the Stormcloaks, not only are they stretched way to thin to effectively rule anywhere in Skyrim, they also don't want to return to their old lives as farmers, millers, cobblers etc.

Stormcloaks are a short term solution when it comes down to it, they can't sustain themselves with their ideology of "with us or against us" and they don't want mercenaries to fill whatever gaps appear due to the overall lack of guardsmen.

Windhelm and the rest of Eastmarch are low on manpower, that won't return anytime soon. Not with the Stormcloaks spreading further across the province, losing more soldiers and replacing the Western soldiers they've killed.

But it probably wouldn't matter too much, all the "True Nords" the Stormcloaks rave on about will bite them later on when they fall apart back into infighting.

For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. - PGE, 3rd Ed/Skyrim.

Ulfric would have been better served splitting the province into two kingdoms again.

Do you not blame the Soldiers for not wanting to return to plow fields? Who the hell wants to plow fields for the rest of their lives? Can't a man have the freedom to explore what the world can offer them? And besides the reason why Windhelm is so low in man power is because the EMPIRE is giving Ulfric the power that he needs. The Empire failed so miserably in protecting their citizens against the biggest threat against man kind... The Elves.. The Thalmor. The Empire refuses to protect the Nords against them... in fact they gave the Thalmor exactly what they need to further contribute to the genocide of mankind. It was one step in controlling them by making a law to outlaw their religion.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Do you not blame the Soldiers for not wanting to return to plow fields? Who the hell wants to plow fields for the rest of their lives? Can't a man have the freedom to explore what the world can offer them?

I'm sure they can, except when all your soldiers are generally tradesmen who kept your Holds productive, you kind of need them to return to their work. Fine example would be the lumber mill in Eastmarch which is not operating due to all the able bodied men off fighting the war, not only are you losing out on access to wood to repair your cities, houses and various items, you're also losing out on creating more arrows, shields and wagons for the war.

Comes back to the point of poor management. The Stormcloaks can rant and rave about honor and fighting, but that alone doesn't win wars. Nor does it make them better suited at ruling all of Skyrim.

Besides the Legion you still have to contend with the out of control bandits, large numbers of Forsworn spreading to raid several spots in other Holds and the Falmer starting to surface. You can't even handle Windhelm anymore, but keep on spreading to other Holds. In the end you'll not only bring down the East, but the West with you.

And besides the reason why Windhelm is so low in man power is because the EMPIRE is giving Ulfric the power that he needs.

So the reason Windhelm is weak, undermanned and has unrest which could lead to revolt in a quarter of the city is because "Empire is giving Ulfric power that he needs"? Damn, have all the power you want.

The Empire refuses to protect the Nords against them...

Refuses? The Empire fought a major destructive war that cost lives and extensive resources.

in fact they gave the Thalmor exactly what they need to further contribute to the genocide of mankind. It was one step in controlling them by making a law to outlaw their religion.

And Ulfric did exactly what was needed to contribute to the almost complete genocide of every living being on Nirn... :eek:

The issues with the Thalmor Justiciars are recent. They're using the rebellion to step up their game, though they are indirectly aiding you Stormcloaks.

Though yes, the small handful of Nords that were arrested prior to the rebellion was contributing to the genocide. Cause the thousands who now die over Ulfric's actions in battle, starvation or by out of control bandits don't matter.
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I'm sure they can, except when all your soldiers are generally tradesmen who kept your Holds productive, you kind of need them to return to their work. Fine example would be the lumber mill in Eastmarch which is not operating due to all the able bodied men off fighting the war, not only are you losing out on access to wood to repair your cities, houses and various items, you're also losing out on creating more arrows, shields and wagons for the war.

Comes back to the point of poor management. The Stormcloaks can rant and rave about honor and fighting, but that alone doesn't win wars. Nor does it make them better suited at ruling all of Skyrim.

Besides the Legion you still have to contend with the out of control bandits, large numbers of Forsworn spreading to raid several spots in other Holds and the Falmer starting to surface. You can't even handle Windhelm anymore, but keep on spreading to other Holds. In the end you'll not only bring down the East, but the West with you.



So the reason Windhelm is weak, undermanned and has unrest which could lead to revolt in a quarter of the city is because "Empire is giving Ulfric power that he needs"? Damn, have all the power you want.



Refuses? The Empire fought a major destructive war that cost lives and extensive resources.



And Ulfric did exactly what was needed to contribute to the almost complete genocide of every living being on Nirn... :eek:

The issues with the Thalmor Justiciars are recent. They're using the rebellion to step up their game, though they are indirectly aiding you Stormcloaks.

Though yes, the small handful of Nords that were arrested prior to the rebellion was contributing to the genocide. Cause the thousands who now die over Ulfric's actions in battle, starvation or by out of control bandits don't matter.

Like I said before If it wasn't for the weakness of the Empire Ulfric would of never had gotten this many support. In fact Ulfric would be the laughing stock of Skyrim, and nobody would of listen to him. The Empire gave Ulfric the probable cause for starting up the civil war in the first place.

As for Ulfric recruiting field workers and lumber workers to join the ranks of the Stormcloaks... The Empire is essentially doing the same thing since Titus Mede II refuses to give General Tullius more troops to deal with the Civil war.


"Sadly, The Empire's stretched a little thin these days, and we've gotten very few reinforcements. So we've been forced to recruit locally. But rest assured, citizen. We'll put an end to this uprising... and things will get back to normal soon enough"
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Like I said before If it wasn't for the weakness of the Empire Ulfric would of never had gotten this many support. In fact Ulfric would be the laughing stock of Skyrim, and nobody would of listen to him. The Empire gave Ulfric the probable cause for starting up the civil war in the first place.

He got majority of his support from killing High King Torygg. No one really listened to him when he was ranting on about the Talos ban for several years. Even if the Empire was strong he'd probably get support from the Eastern Holds mostly due to the fact they've always generally been "Skyrim for the Nords". Ulfric isn't starting anything new, there has always been discontent among many Nords about being part of the Empire. The Talos Ban is an important aspect, but so is the racial one.

As for Ulfric recruiting field workers and lumber workers to join the ranks of the Stormcloaks... The Empire is essentially doing the same thing since Titus Mede II refuses to give General Tullius more troops to deal with the Civil war.

Except the difference being that Tullius can replace them with mercenaries over time and he in fact will have access to reinforcements once Pale Pass is cleared.

Ulfric relies exclusively on these soldiers both during and after the war. Tullius only needs them short term, unlike Ulfric he's not building an army because the Empire has an army.

The Imperial Legion won't rely on solely milita, they're also a career one can leave after their term. Besides the citizens benefit more from the Legion as Tullius doubled their wages and the compensation to the widows of their fallen soldiers. So not only will they have extra money to help them in these hard times, the families of fallen Legionaries will get double compensation which will help them keep food on the table.

Edit: Citizens get access to the food and resources the Empire provides, so any loss in productivity won't hurt as much as an independent Skyrim forming.

"Sadly, The Empire's stretched a little thin these days, and we've gotten very few reinforcements. So we've been forced to recruit locally. But rest assured, citizen. We'll put an end to this uprising... and things will get back to normal soon enough"

"and things will get back to normal soon enough."

Pointing out the weakness of Tullius' position currently, only reinforces the poor management of the Stormcloaks who should have a clear advantage. Not only should the Stormcloaks have access to more food from the fertile Rift, they should have access to wealth from the only shipping company that is running completely.

The Stormcloaks have mismatched equipment, some even have poor quality iron weaponry. Ulfric however is getting his blacksmith to begin forging a special blade that is to look like a copy of an ancient sword of a distant High Queen. His own image is more important than the equipment of his soldiers, a Colovian King wouldn't be that vain. Hell, Emperor Titus Mede the First had a broadsword in a battered scabbard during his reign.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
The Stormcloaks are a growing militia that is less than 20 years old (I think). It was just recently that they've sky rocked in popularity due to the assassination of High King Torygg. They do not have the luxury of having significant wealth like the Empire has.

The Stormcloaks who:

a) Control the only operating shipping company in all of Skyrim, since the EETC are basically shut down until Rise in the East is completed.

b) Control the most fertile farmlands in all of Skyrim (The Rift) and all the prime hunting in that area.

c) Control Dawnstar known for its rich mines, and a secondary port which would also provide more income and open the way for more trade that is being denied to the Empire's Holds from the pirates bought by the Nord shipping company in Windhelm.

The Empire has wealth, sure. But they're having quite a hard time getting it into Skyrim with the Civil War, the harsh long winter, pirates attacking company ships and Pale Pass completely blocked by an avalanche.

The Stormcloaks should have a clear advantage, the problem is that they suck at management. Their Jarls largely suck too.

And all those mercenaries the Stormcloaks refuse to hire? After awhile they'll turn to banditry... Which they are.

The largest and most organized bandit group in all of Skyrim call Eastmarch home, and are doing basically what the Thalmor are doing (kidnapping people) except they don't care if you worship Talos or not.

"Now every free blade from here to Windhelm wants to sign on for a piece." - Fjola


*OBJECTION*

Thalmor are interrogating known terrorists and braking up cells of dissent from people living outside Dominion law. Citizens are not being 'kidnapped' as the Jarls (Imperial authorities) themselves have to sign the arrest warrant... pay no attention to this charlatan.


images
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - Tullius

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Rikke

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Rikke
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
Wana be a racist or a follow the horrible thalmor? Thats realistically your options .


Actually, you can do both as each main faction in Skyrim serves the Thalmor in their own way. And even if that is not their intention or is seemingly the intent, the Thalmor are still wise to both of them.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Quite frankly I can see the Thalmor winning the next round. During the counter attack on the Imperial City the Dominion forces tried to break out of the city and were only halted by Nord legions - and those are currently being killed in very high numbers and not just because of the Civil War as this little text snippet suggests:

Long ago in the First Age, a fearsome dragon named Numinex ravaged the whole of Skyrim. The dreadful drake wiped out entire villages, burned cities and killed countless Nords. It seemed that no power in Tamriel could stop the monster.

And that's just one single dragon wiping out villages - in Skyrim there's a whole dragon infestation!

Somewhat ironic, this part is next:

This was a troubled time in Skyrim's history, for a bitter war of succession raged between the holds. The Jarls might have been able to conquer the beast if they had worked together, but trust was in desperately short supply.
 

Vauldis

Member
Wana be a racist or a follow the horrible thalmor? Thats realistically your options .


Actually, you can do both as each main faction in Skyrim serves the Thalmor in their own way. And even if that is not their intention or is seemingly the intent, the Thalmor are still wise to both of them.
This is why we should all kneel to the mighty Molag Bal.
Submitting to him means that the thalmor don't get your support at all! And eventually he will attack Tamerial again and he will stop the thalmor! ( and the Empire....and ....well everything not worshipping him)
So step right up all you elf haters! Go sacrifice a child or something to your lord and saviour Molag Bal!


Alternatively just keep fighting like you are for the next few eras, he will strike eventually. Seriously you stormcloaks , imperials and thalmor are just weakening each other. Not that we're complaining of course, go on enjoy your wars and pillaging!
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Is it something I missed in oblivion the reason nirn can never be invaded again? I never finished it.

Uff, yeah it was something in the game Oblivion. Something with Dragonfires... meh, I find that part of the lore quite boring. Ask Mage when he's sober again. :p
 
This thread is fascinating, I've only got around to looking at it now. It's amazing how a sub-plot in a video game could spark so much debate that can last for nearly four years with no sign of stopping.

I'm just not sure where I stand on this.

From day 1 of playing Skyrim I automatically sympathised with the Stormcloaks, without ever necessarily giving it much thought. It's also counterintuitive for me because I would lean to the right in 'real life' politics, which seems ideologically more similar to the Imperials ("the Imperials are good for business, business is good for Skyrim"...).

Nonetheless I just finished playing through the Civil War quest line on the Imperial's side for the first time and I never felt fully comfortable about it. I really have no idea why because in the cold light of day when you read the pros and cons of each side as so eloquently and rationally set out in this thread, I would have to find myself agreeing with the Imperials again.
 
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dusara217

New Member
This thread is fascinating, I've only got around to looking at it now. It's amazing how a sub-plot in a video game could spark so much debate that can last for nearly four years with no sign of stopping.

I'm just not sure where I stand on this.

From day 1 of playing Skyrim I automatically sympathised with the Stormcloaks, without ever necessarily giving it much thought. It's also counterintuitive for me because I would lean to the right in 'real life' politics, which seems ideologically more similar to the Imperials ("the Imperials are good for business, business is good for Skyrim"...).

Nonetheless I just finished playing through the Civil War quest line on the Imperial's side for the first time and I never felt fully comfortable about it. I really have no idea why because in the cold light of day when you read the pros and cons of each side as so eloquently and rationally set out in this thread, I would have to find myself agreeing with the Imperials again.
Yeah, the Civil War never does feel right. I blame Bethesda. The Civil War questline itself is a pale shadow of it what it was originally supposed to be. If you look at the source files, it was originally going to be an intuitive war wherein you could win or lose battles, or even the war. Random Hold attacks would force you to assist, and you weren't the one person slaughtering an army (more realistic). Unfortunately, time constraints prevented Bethesda from completing the most awesome questline in RPG history, and decided to trade awesomesauce for a few measly months of extra purchases (similar to what Bungie did with Destiny, but at least Skyrim wasn't a clear money-grubbing whore of a video game like Destiny is).
 

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