Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Ehhh, I understand your points but I disagree.

Without the aid of the Dragonborn, the civil war would've likely remained in a stalemate condition for a fair amount of time. Also, the very same person who saved the world from ending from the first born of Akatosh, AKA Alduin, I am sure it would take more than a petty arrow to stop he or she.

The Civil War almost ended in Imperial sided without the Dragonborn, given time one faction or the other would achieve victory. Defeating Alduin with the aid of three legendary heroes with the most powerful Thu'um is great and all, but Alduin could only be defeated/harmed by the Dragonborn, were he any other Dragon he would have been killed by soldiers. Not even Talos could defeat an entire army on his own and he could change the landscape of a province in some myths.

The Dragonborn isn't invincible. You're driven by fate to defeat Alduin, just as Talos was to conquer Tamriel. Moment you start diverting from your path you're on your own, or require the aid of Daedric Princes like Miraak who turned away from his destiny to defeat Alduin in the first place.

Plus in my game, thanks to mods, I by myself successfully captured multiple cities for the faction I was fighting for.

Which is in your game and entirely optional, but each city is mentioned to being quite weak and lacking soldiers, and most of the soldiers we do fight are considered poorly trained militia.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
(when the Empire left us all to die from the Daedra invasion)

The Empire left you? Besides the Legion never having a real strong presence in Summerset Isle, no ships could leave the islands during the Oblivion Crisis. So how exactly would they have left you?

The Imperial Legion were targets during the Crisis with some gates opening up in the middle of their garrisons. If there was any Legion presence in Summerset Isle, chances are they died first while the Thalmor were hiding behind high walls and taking credit for what the real heroes fighting against the Daedra did.

For a race with a superiority complex, the Argonians did better than you.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
(when the Empire left us all to die from the Daedra invasion)

The Empire left you? Besides the Legion never having a real strong presence in Summerset Isle, no ships could leave the islands during the Oblivion Crisis. So how exactly would they have left you?

The Imperial Legion were targets during the Crisis with some gates opening up in the middle of their garrisons. If there was any Legion presence in Summerset Isle, chances are they died first while the Thalmor were hiding behind high walls and taking credit for what the real heroes fighting against the Daedra did.

For a race with a superiority complex, the Argonians did better than you.


Yeah ok, we'll give you a pass there. Only because the politics were already so screwed up during the crises. What saved the Argonians was being united by the hist and the rise of a strong political body which re-enforced that.

The Thalmor and the various wizard syndicates were working towards that goal however the Crystal Tower didn't recognize the Thalmor (Outcasts) until it was almost too late to ask for help. By that time, the Empire had done one of the following:

a) Didn't show up
b) *Had already left
c) Was already dead but there were no Legions defending Crystal Tower. Only the Wizards.

Most of the populace followed the Crystal Tower authority which clung to the Empire, which is why they all were massacred. The only ones who survived were either in the Thalmor or one of the political syndicates who were themselves also prepared for this.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
Perhaps once the Thalmor take Cyrodiil back we can finish that game of Tiger Sport, but I digress.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
The Dragonborn is an errand boy/girl, not to mention both the Stormcloaks and Imperial Legion release the Dragonborn from their service at the end of the Civil War questline.

I doubt they would be able to take down an entire army. One stray arrow to the neck and thus ends the shouting career of the Dragongorn.

Yeah I kinda feel that both parties used my skills to further better themselves.

I think the Dragonborn should raise an army of dragons, and the undead, and just kill both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. The fight will continue once the Dragonborn flies above Summerset isls land.

The Dragonborn should be worshiped like a god, not treated like a peasant. He should be force to enslave people to build his new temple.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yeah I kinda feel that both parties used my skills to further better themselves.

I think the Dragonborn should raise an army of dragons, and the undead, and just kill both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. The fight will continue once the Dragonborn flies above Summerset isls land.

The Dragonborn should be worshiped like a god, not treated like a peasant. He should be force to enslave people to build his new temple.

Of course they did, but Ulfric? fl*ffing wants to use you in his victory speech only to cast you aside moments after like some peasant.

Least Tullius only used me for war, not as a recruitment tool or poster boy at the end of the war.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
The Dragonborn is an errand boy/girl, not to mention both the Stormcloaks and Imperial Legion release the Dragonborn from their service at the end of the Civil War questline.

I doubt they would be able to take down an entire army. One stray arrow to the neck and thus ends the shouting career of the Dragongorn.

Yeah I kinda feel that both parties used my skills to further better themselves.

I think the Dragonborn should raise an army of dragons, and the undead, and just kill both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. The fight will continue once the Dragonborn flies above Summerset isls land.

The Dragonborn should be worshiped like a god, not treated like a peasant. He should be force to enslave people to build his new temple.


Fig'd that would get your attn XD Welcome back Raj
 

nogz

Member
Hammerfell won nothing. They devastated their province and fought to a standstill, either making it too costly or wrecking enough to lose any value. Just because the Redguards could continue in their lands, doesn't mean the Empire was in any shape after the Battle of the Red Ring.

Hammerfell won the war with the Thalmor. I know it makes you mad because it proves that the Empire should have continue the fight instead of giving up like the pussies they are, but hey what can you do, right.

They barely recovered with what they had, you're suggesting they would be able to do so with less resources/manpower and more problems.

They were in good enough shape to continue sending Skyrim all the gold, food and stuff they needed. If Cyrodiil was in such bad shape you'd think they'll concentrate the Empire's resources on it, not immediately sending tons of relieve to Skyrim. At this point it's safe to assume the Empire's account on their loses and the condition it was in was greatly overestimated which was big part of the reason the Emperor lost his spine. More so, the strength and capabilities of the Dominion were overestimated too. Which would explain why they agreed to the peace in the first place and why Hammerfell kicked their ass, they were in a bad shape too. The problem is of course, they got the best possible deal while the Empire got the short end of the stick because they are pussies.

You've just been draining their resources for ten years, in the last five even more so. After the war even more resources are going out before they're going to see any return. The local rulers look to their own interests first, and you're asking them to continue to support you when you're unable to provide any means of assistance for a very long time. Look at Skyrim during the Civil War, take away the Talos Ban/Stormcloaks and look at the secondary issues of resources and manpower being drained. Loss of control along the roads, more crime and citizens living in fear of starvation or being killed by bandits and dangerous creatures. Now that is from months of supplying a lot to war effort. What would it be if they had to supply many times more for years? Why should they back you when you're unable to restore one province quickly enough, and draining their resources to do so. You have little soldiers remaining, resources are scarce and while the local rulers are barely able to handle their own problems you're asking for more. If the Empire had more provinces, okay. But High Rock and Skyrim supporting Cyrodiil for five extra years of warfare, and then more while they try restore order?

None of this really matters if the Empire had won the war. Plus, the resources were going back and forth, not in only one direction. All the Jarls under Empire rule, all they talk about is how good Cyrodiil gold is. You talk about the problems during the Civil War, as if Skyrim would be having a civil war in the first place if the Empire had won the war and Talos wasn't banned. The reason bandits are running up and down Skyrim is because of the Civil War, which is only happening because of the Emperor giving up in the war.

Why would morale be strong? Living in fear, mass starvation, thousands who are homeless, and many people fleeing from Cyrodiil to escape the violence brought about by lack of control. Morale would be fl*ffing low, and the more you take the from the provinces the higher the risk of a revolt over resources than religion. The provinces are struggling after ten years of supplying war, their resources are again being diverted to Cyrodiil so they can regain control. Which will take an even longer time, that is if they could even restore order with a smaller military force.

Living in fear? Oh, you mean like now? That any moment a Thalmor agent can come knocking on your door and drag you to the torture room? Morale and support would be strong for the obvious reasons, but I guess I'd have to spell it out for you:

1) Winning the war
2) Talos not being banned
3) Skyrim not having a civil war
4) The Empire and the Emperor being lauded as the ultimate saviors of mankind
5) Not having Thalmor agents dragging people to the torture rooms

and the list goes on and on and on..

The Empire has the exact same support in every part of Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are not exactly at the start, they've been around for many years. Only the open conflict is at the start, and most issues with the Thalmor Justiciars being more recent.

Yes, by cowards, traitors and collaborators. Also notice how most of the Empire supporters really only care about the economic benefit they are having because of the Empire. The Jarls want the Empire gold, and families like the Battle-Borns only care about the gold too.

Hammerfell wasn't even that useful to the Empire at the time, they were too divided and only Cyrodiil/High Rock/Skyrim were prosperous. After Red Ring they were occupied, after Second Treaty of Stros M'kai they were completely devastated.

Doesn't really matter, the point is that now Hammerfell is out and even more so, they hate the Empire. None of the WGC is a net benefit for the Empire, it's all about their downfall. Also Hamerfell isn't devastated, only the southern coastline is.

The Blades were all but destroyed during the Great War, and they were never an arm of the Imperial Government. Losing the Blades is akin to losing some guild. Sure they were useful against the Thalmor for a short time, but they underestimated their enemy.

It's still a net loss for the Empire and a benefit for the Dominion. It's amazing how you think that spinning the WGC around makes it in any way, shape or form a good deal for the Empire. Delusions are free, I guess.

I would disagree. The Legions on their border would make any invasion harder, and being prepared makes all the difference. Dominion's success in the Great War was largely due to surprise and keeping the Empire on the run. The Empire seems to be preparing for a large Military campaign, even securing their rear by the mentions of a staging ground into Morrowind "just in case". It would set the stage for an even easier invasion had the Empire went beyond their limits in the Great War. Had they continued you run the risk of them not being able to even restore order in the aftermath.

It doesn't when the Thalmor now have way more information about what the Empire is doing. Before the war they thought the Empire is in a way better shape, be that because they had bad agents or whatever doesn't matter. Now they know everything, simply because they pretty much run the place. Their agents are everywhere, in every city, doing what they want. The Empire has Legions on their border? Good, now the Thalmor know exactly how to outmaneuver them. God, the Emperor can't be dumber even if he tried. No wonder his own council wants to kill him.. And how in the hell would it be an easier invasion if the Dominion was utterly crushed in the war? They were probably in worse shape than the Empire, you only assume they were in a better shape to make the spineless decision made by the Emperor and the WGC look good while in fact was probably the worst thing he ever did.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Hammerfell won the war with the Thalmor. I know it makes you mad because it proves that the Empire should have continue the fight instead of giving up like the pussies they are, but hey what can you do, right.

Doesn't make me anything. Saying Hammerfell won the war with the Aldmeri Dominion is akin to watching a Football match with neither side scoring going on to say "This team won!"

They were in good enough shape to continue sending Skyrim all the gold, food and stuff they needed.

Chests of gold sent to the Jarls at a time we don't even know when, doesn't make them in good enough shape. It would have been years before Skyrim saw anything returning to them.

If Cyrodiil was in such bad shape you'd think they'll concentrate the Empire's resources on it, not immediately sending tons of relieve to Skyrim.

They were concentrating on Cyrodiil? Cyrodiil was in chaos many years following the end of the war, enough that people fled to Skyrim for better lives.

Show me your quotes of them immediately sending "tons of relieve" to Skyrim? One of the largest complaints from Nords is that the Empire is taking too much from Skyrim.

At this point it's safe to assume the Empire's account on their loses and the condition it was in was greatly overestimated which was big part of the reason the Emperor lost his spine.

"The Imperial Province is ravaged by strife. Nowhere there is safe, at present." - Cicero

Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it. - Cicero's Journal

"I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about." - Hadvar

"It got bad back in Cyrodiil. The war with the Thalmor ruined... everything. I came to Skyrim looking for a better life." - Camilla Valerius

"I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil only to have it track me down again in Skyrim." - Valga Vinicia

More so, the strength and capabilities of the Dominion were overestimated too. Which would explain why they agreed to the peace in the first place and why Hammerfell kicked their ass, they were in a bad shape too. The problem is of course, they got the best possible deal while the Empire got the short end of the stick because they are pussies.

Redguards were fighting against those occupying their lands, they led a resistance. The Thalmor only wanted parts of Hammerfell, obviously when it becomes too costly or it is too devastated both sides agreed to a ceasefire.

Though according to one Redguard the resistance is apparenting still ongoing, so maybe their "victory" isn't all it is cracked up to be.

The Dominion were weak, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that the Empire was in no position to continue fighting, the Dominion were able to. The Empire threw everything it had at the Battle of the Red Ring.

None of this really matters if the Empire had won the war.

Of course it matters. What part of stalemate isn't winning don't you understand? Pushing back the Thalmor only to ruin yourself and not recover wouldn't be victory, now would it?

Plus, the resources were going back and forth, not in only one direction. All the Jarls under Empire rule, all they talk about is how good Cyrodiil gold is.

The resources are going back and forth, now.

No they don't. In fact, Solitude is complaining that the Empire is using too much of their resources. Show me "all" the Jarls under Empire rule constantly talk about how good Cyrodiil gold is?

You talk about the problems during the Civil War, as if Skyrim would be having a civil war in the first place if the Empire had won the war and Talos wasn't banned. The reason bandits are running up and down Skyrim is because of the Civil War, which is only happening because of the Emperor giving up in the war.

I'm talking about the side effects of the Civil War, not the war itself. These problems we're seeing would be present during the hard times and where soldiers are in decline. Look at Cyrodiil, they had various cities erupting into violence due to lack of Imperial authority.

You're saying "There won't be a Civil War, so any problems relating more to the lack of resources, and protection wouldn't be there even though there would be extreme lack of resources and less protection."

Just because there isn't a war over Talos, don't think problems suddenly vanish


Living in fear? Oh, you mean like now? That any moment a Thalmor agent can come knocking on your door and drag you to the torture room? Morale and support would be strong for the obvious reasons, but I guess I'd have to spell it out for you:

Thalmor Justiciars are the least of concerns for most folk in Skyrim. Given that Thalmor Agents could come knocking on your door and drag you away to hidden Thalmor nests for the last hundred or more years. People live more in fear of the violence and chaos.

Morale and support would be strong. No it wouldn't, if you take too much you'll have a revolt on your hands.

1) Winning the war

Ending in a draw.*

2) Talos not being banned

Great for Talos.

3) Skyrim not having a civil war

No, just having to pay for the continuation of war without Cyrodiil. Falling apart from the strain, people starving, taxes increasing, citizens revolt against their own Jarls. We've seen it all before.

4) The Empire and the Emperor being lauded as the ultimate saviors of mankind

The Empire which is unable to reach beyond Cyrodiil, starts demanding more and more from the provinces. These provinces who so love the Empire, will ruin themselves for the saviors without question. Cyrodiil remains erupting into violence, with less manpower and even more problems on their hands the Imperial Legion struggles to bring order and even if they manage to restore order in time... The Dominion are lining their borders for the next war.

5) Not having Thalmor agents dragging people to the torture rooms

That would still go on, just you're living in the illusion of it isn't them. Back when people would go missing or killed "probably bandits, or wild animals".


Yes, by cowards, traitors and collaborators.

Sounds like the Stormcloaks.

Also notice how most of the Empire supporters really only care about the economic benefit they are having because of the Empire. The Jarls want the Empire gold, and families like the Battle-Borns only care about the gold too.

Economic benefit is good, but that isn't "most" of their supporters who go on about that.

Though Winterhold does plan to rebuild the city under the Empire, the Stormcloaks up there have no plans and just blame the Mages for the cold.

Dawnstar is looking amazing under the Empire, a great Jarl who cares for her people first. While the Stormcloak regime there looks to the civilians as human shields.

Riften is about the same no matter what side, Markarth is the same.

Falkreath is probably your only great negative against the Imperials, but at least the Jarl there has a great steward.

Windhelm is looking great under the Imperials, the Dunmer and Argonians are looking hopeful for the future.

Doesn't really matter, the point is that now Hammerfell is out and even more so, they hate the Empire. None of the WGC is a net benefit for the Empire, it's all about their downfall. Also Hamerfell isn't devastated, only the southern coastline is.

Southern Hammerfell was devastated, ten years of warfare in that country would have wider devastation besides the mere coastline.

So the South was only devastated, great because the North is desert.


It doesn't when the Thalmor now have way more information about what the Empire is doing.

How do they have "way more" information?

Before the war they thought the Empire is in a way better shape, be that because they had bad agents or whatever doesn't matter.

The Thalmor were infiltrating a lot of things in the Empire to gain information, they were being countered against by the Penitus Oculatus' agents.

Now they know everything, simply because they pretty much run the place.

No they do not. The Thalmor have no more access than before the Great War. A bunch of treaty enforcers can't do whatever they want, "officially" they still have to answer to orders by the Legion about prisoners.

Their agents are everywhere, in every city, doing what they want.

Exactly what they've been doing for over a hundred years, 191 years if we count Ocato's death.

The Empire has Legions on their border? Good, now the Thalmor know exactly how to outmaneuver them.

How would they do that? Empire has Legions on their border, and throughout locations in Cyrodiil. Dominion only did well in the First War by attacking out of hidden camps against small unprepared border defences.

Legion on the alert, gathered in strength and most likely fortifications they've built.

God, the Emperor can't be dumber even if he tried.

Could be like Ulfric, manages to get captured in his own Hold.

And how in the hell would it be an easier invasion if the Dominion was utterly crushed in the war? They were probably in worse shape than the Empire, you only assume they were in a better shape to make the spineless decision made by the Emperor and the WGC look good while in fact was probably the worst thing he ever did.

The Dominion wouldn't be utterly crushed in the war, you're after a treaty where they simply return back to their own lands. Theywere in better shape than the Empire, their lands weren't devastated by open conflict and there is no indication of them facing any of the problems the Empire did after the war.

It would be easier to invade the Empire if they weren't able to restore order. They'd have more problems, less resources and manpower to fix them. It would take even longer for them to achieve stability if they could even do that, while the Dominion are simply lining their borders again.

If the Empire was barely able to restore order after five years of warfare, how would they be able to after more years? The more strain you put on the provinces to try stabilize the more risk you run of them revolting against you to save themselves from collapsing.

You're simply saying without the Talos Ban that things would be okay, majority of the problems that occured within the Empire post-Great War have nothing to do with the ban or the White-Gold Concordat.

One rebellion in Skyrim twenty six years later isn't too bad, even if Skyrim was lost Cyrodiil is mostly recovered from the Great War.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It has taken the Empire twenty six years to recover for the most part, they're still having issues unrelated to the Stormcloaks. Twenty six years restoring order after five years of warfare.

It has taken the Dominion twenty one years to recover enough to line their borders after ten years of sustained warfare on multiple fronts. This includes a major defeat at Battle of the Red Ring.

The Empire was almost destroyed in the Great War, what the Thalmor refer to as the "First War against the Empire". The Great War could not have been won by the Empire, everything was stacked against them even surviving the surprise onslaught. Agreeing to the Thalmor demands after a long and bloody conflict is very different to agreeing to them on the mere threat of war.

Simply risking the total collapse of the Empire because you won't make any sacrifices is stupidity, it isn't cowardly to know when you can and can't fight anymore. The Empire won a major battle, doesn't mean they could go on to win the war. You could win every single battle and still lose the war.

The Thalmor were plotting and preparing this war for over a hundred years, carefully moving the pieces. The Empire was given days to mount any defence for a fullscale invasion, with spread out forces and military weakness. The fact they're still standing just shows how impressive the Empire is.

It will be the Second War that will be the one that changes the political landscape of Tamriel, where it will either be man or mer as the dominant race. The Empire wouldn't have won anything out of the Great War besides staying alive, they could either sacrifice Talos temporarily or push their luck and either get destroyed or have the Dominion return back to Valenwood without any negative treaty terms.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yeah I kinda feel that both parties used my skills to further better themselves.

I think the Dragonborn should raise an army of dragons, and the undead, and just kill both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. The fight will continue once the Dragonborn flies above Summerset isls land.

The Dragonborn should be worshiped like a god, not treated like a peasant. He should be force to enslave people to build his new temple.

We help save Skyrim and these local Nords condemn us for using Necromancy.

Stormcloaks want to build Heimskr a temple... fl*ffing Heimskr! Where is my temple!?! I'd have even settled for them building me a research lab for my experiments... But no, I have to pay the Jarls for crappy houses.

The Dunmer gave me a house on Solstheim for free, and even paid me 10k Septims. They may live.
 

Thorek

New Member
I go for the stormcloaks. imperials are weak and their empire has been on decline for hundreds of years. they are still as corrupt as ever and desperate enough to try drag everyone down with them.

Empire betrayed their subjects, betrayed their legions and in the end betray their own emperor.
 

Thorek

New Member
The debate has been going on since release. not much to argue about unless you go in circles. Is an intense debate due to the mixed feelings about the empire from previous titles, i myself supported them at first but after playing through the game i realized it was mainly due to me having done another playthrough of oblivion before skyrim came out. So when I opened skyim i had just finished the end of oblivion's mainquest again.

Not surprising the empire is nearly finished with them being on decline since morrowind or more correctly since tiber died. loved the series since daggerfall, very interesting settings in each new game.
 

Secunda_

The Dragon Knight
Alright let's get this straight.. If the Rebels win, then what? The Empire, whom of which oppose the Aldmeri Dominion perhaps more than the Rebels, will be practically dead. The Empire needs the Nords on the front lines for when the Second Great War arises upon Tamriel. With the Empire decimated of such resources, then what? You really believe that men fighting themselves will solve things? Will earn long lasting freedom? The Empire in its current state is weak and a bit corrupt, indeed. But what of Ulfric? What of his weakened force of militiamen? Ulfric was mentally corrupted by the Thalmor themselves, and they wished for a civil war in Skyrim. They wanted Ulfric to cause trouble so that the Empire will be even further weakened, and so that the opposition of their main enemy is lesser. Ulfric is a pawn and the elves are watching him dance upon their strings. Talos this and Talos that. The banning of Talos wasn't even a damned issue until Ulfric caused plops, and provoked the Thalmor which then caused them to send their petty ambassadors to Skyrim. The treaty was the Empire's pause button of the war. They could've went to the Summerset isles and destroyed them completely if it weren't for the heavy casualties the Empire received. The Empire kicked their asses completely and saved humanity! And now these thin minded rebels believe that they are the enemy? An enemy that is concurrently trying to destroy the true enemy (Thalmor), yet can't bc all Ulfric and his militiamen simply cannot think this far, and simply can't worship their god privately for a period of time.

Another thing;
The Empire did not bring aggression to the land of Skyrim. It was too busy preparing for the next great war than to focus on Skyrim. Your so called "jarl" gathered a team of rag-tag militia men and conquered Markarth from the Bretons, making Talos worship a huge deal. This was what the Thalmor wanted. Ulfric stirring plops up of Talos, and of the Empire. The Empire, at first, allowed Ulfric to carry out his order of the worship of Talos. Until the Thalmor finally got the moment they were looking for. The moment the Thalmor using Ulfric as their pawn worked, and forced the Empire to quell the Markarth Incident, and "terminate" worship. It is a fact before the Markarth Incident, and before Ulfric began dancing for the Elves without his knowing, that Talos worship was widely known to be allowed privately. Everyone worshiped. Just secretly in their own homes, etc. After the Markarth Incident, the Thalmor used Ulfric and his rebellion as an excuse to begin cracking down on worship. It's unfortunate the Rebels can't realize this. Realize that your so called "hero" who represents the Nordic people and the freedom of Talos worship, was the sole reason as to why the Thalmor now have a heavy presence in Skyrim, and as to why aggression has been brought upon the land.. And as to why the Thalmor are dragging their citizens away into the night to be tortured over religion. Just as the Thalmor wanted. Good job stormcloaks!!! "Lets fight a war RIGHT after we just fought in a catastrophic war that could've led to the destruction of mankind in total!" You fell right into their ploy.
 
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Secunda_

The Dragon Knight
The Empire is trying to rebuild and bolster its Legions so that when the time of the Second Great War dawns, they'll be truly ready to terminate the Dominion in total. The rebels are holding the Empire back from such a thing, and are trying to destroy the only physical footprint of Tiber Septim on Nirn simply because they "turned their backs on him." How is it the Empire turned their backs on Talos? Even people of the Empire in Cyrodiil still worship Talos, but as I said in privacy. The Elves knew that the Nords of Skyrim have a special love of Talos, and knew if they banned him that there would be unrest. Unrest the Elves need to rebuild and watch as the humans kill each other, just as they wanted all along. The Stormcloaks always claim the Imperials to be puppets, when in fact they are puppets themselves. Weakening Skyrim AND the Empire, a true benefit to the Dominion.
 

Thorek

New Member
Wow long post. i'll do my best with it. "Rebels win then what?" they prepare for the next great war exactly the same the empire claims they're doing. ulfric and galmar mention training their armies and that mankind standing together against the thalmor threat. Nords will be on the front lines.

The empire is practically dead. they lost their divine backing when martin sacrificed himself and the medes have done their best to keep the empire together even using daedric princes to aid them in doing so which is good.

The empire is already lacking proper resources and legion says that the empire is spread thin these days. they lack the ability to keep order inside cyrodiil where violence and cities erupting into chaos is the norm. if the Empire can't handle their capital province why should they rule over skyrim? imperials are draining more resources from skyrim than they're providing.

Empire is more than a bit corrupt. the council or at least motierre is ensuring the civil war goes on longer. Vici's wedding was seen as steps towards peace between stormcloaks and empire, she is killed to make titus go to skyrim only for him to be assassinated. Maven can bribe the imperial council. if one nord noble can do that who says the thalmor can't?

The Stormcloaks being a militia doesn't mean anything. they plan to train up their armies with ex-legionnaires and great war veterans. no different to the empire training new recruits. The Thalmor used Ulfric so what? Thalmor used the Empire too.

Markarth was caused by empire supporters and the empire itself. Ulfric was hired to retake the Reach from the Forsworn, he didn't bring the thalmor to skyrim they were allowed to do that by the treaty. if you're talking about what alvor says he is speaking about the empire enforcing the ban too "emperor forced to crack down" not "thalmor came here".

The markarth incident took place months after the white-gold concordat was signed. hardly a long amount of time of private worship. thalmor justiciars arrived in skyrim around that time, has nothing to do with ulfric doing this or that. they demanded ulfric be arrested but it was the treaty that brought them to skyrim.
 
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