Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

The bigger they are the harder they fall!

For Ulfric, for Skyrim!!

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing.

I fight... because I must."

Cue the random and irrelevant spouting of delusional propaganda...

:/

Hey, don't be mad that the Stormcloaks are better at it, not our problem the Empire sucks.

nogz said:

Now you are presenting a doomsday scenario for the war so it can fit your argument about the treaty. In truth there isn't ever going to be an agreeable way out of a discussion about 'if the war continued' simply because there are so many variables. I can easily make up the best possible scenario for the Empire if the war continued. But what's the point? And besides, the lore says otherwise anyway. I was just stating my opinion, from that position he should have fought on. The aftermath of the treaty makes it pretty clear that if anything he simply prolonged the pain instead of stopping it. Even more so, whatever he intended it or not, things now are way worse for the Empire. If the Empire wins the civil war in Skyrim fast and the next Emperor is more capable maybe the Empire has some chance in the next war. I'd still go with Ulfric though.

ps. Maybe the Dominion gave the Empire gold, being the aggressor and what not or for some other reason. I'd be surprised though, that's not what usually would happen if you win.

Click to expand...

The scenario I'm on about is valid given what we know, it isn't simply saying bad plops can happen for the sake of it happening. Cyrodiil was in ruins. Were the Empire to continue the war using High Rock and Skyrim alone to supply the war effort they would collapse.

You say lore says otherwise, what lore?

How would you picture Skyrim would look after it was supplying a war effort for five years, lost a Hold due to lack of soldiers and now suddenly they're sending even more resources. So we can look at Skyrim in the Civil War, there are tons of problems due to lack of soldiers and they're having problems with resources even with the Empire providing a fair amount. Take away the Empire providing anything, Cyrodiil is gone.

You say the Empire should fight on, but they've been on the brink of destruction for over a year. What would be the gains of fighting on? A truce.

They barely were able to recover from all the internal problems that the war created, all the destruction and lack of soldiers to restore order. How would they manage will less soldiers and worse problems?

The Empire was never going to win the "First War against the Empire" as the Thalmor call it. They had too much stacked against them, and by the time of victory in Cyrodiil, the losses suffered would not have allowed a counter attack. The Empire fighting the Dominion was a statement "We'll agree to these demands on our terms."

There is a difference to agreeing to such demands on the mere threat of war, and after a long and destructive war.

For the last bit, the Dominion didn't win the Great War. Had the Dominion won, the Empire would be gone. Neither side won or lost, it was a costly war.

nogz said:

Hey, don't be mad that the Stormcloaks are better at it, not our problem the Empire sucks.

Click to expand...

No, it isn't, you simply look at the Empire loses and make a case that everything will go even more downhill. Like I said, I can use my imagination and make up the best possible outcome if the war continued, but that doesn't prove anything because it's speculation, and the lore says the war ended with the WGC, Hamerfell rejected it, Skyrim is in open revolt, etc.

The Dominion did win the war, you can try to rationalize it all you want, that doesn't change a thing. The war was about the demands of the treaty, which they got in full beside the Hammerfell part. That's like saying if the Emperor agreed to the demands in the first place it would mean the Empire won and the Dominion lost. LOL. Even every single Jarl and character in the game pretty much agrees that the Empire was defeated and the Dominion won big time. And why would the Empire be gone anyway? That wasn't really the plan of the Dominion nor is it in the near future. And it's smart too if you think about it, they'd need that administrative and political control at least at first, otherwise they'd be faced with revolts every 5 seconds. No, their plan now is near perfect, make the Empire weak, infiltrate it, make it submit, use it against its own people etc. That's the most effective way to make slaves of the humans really. Galmar Stone-Fist I think it was says it best really - the Empire's Jarls and High King are puppets of the Emperor who is a puppet of the Thalmor. You don't need the Empire gone, you only need to submit to your will. At first at least.

nogz said:

No, it isn't, you simply look at the Empire loses and make a case that everything will go even more downhill. Like I said, I can use my imagination and make up the best possible outcome if the war continued, but that doesn't prove anything because it's speculation,

Click to expand...

Yes it is. You aren't looking at the picture, you could make the best possible outcome if the war continued by ignoring everything that happened. Cyrodiil is in ruins, they're not in a position to supply anything. The Imperial Army is decimated and any Legion remaining is under half strength.

Lets factor in Dominion losses like you say I ignore. They lost one main army in the Imperial City, no mention to losing the secondary army that was is inside Cyrodiil. The other main Dominion army is weakened, but they're heavily entrenched in Hammerfell that would take years to remove them.

Now lets take a look at what happened in the Empire after the war, they could barely restore order with their limited Legions. High Rock loses one of the most important and largest kingdoms they have, city after city erupts into violence due to lack of Imperial authority.

Are they going to pull a rabbit out of the hat? Western Skyrim can barely support a tiny fraction of the Empire's military, Eastern Skyrim is doing no better with the Stormcloaks. After months they're falling apart, but they can do better for years supplying many times what they're doing now.

Skyrim had been supplying the war effort for five years, they're unable to even retake the Reach during this time. So obviously they are lacking the resources/soldiers to keep order in their province. Cyrodiil is now gone, so Skyrim and High Rock are picking up the slack to continue the war.

So by all means, show us your version of the best possible outcome? Any more losses and the Empire would have been unable to restore Cyrodiil at least not for an even longer time, that means even more resources are being drained out of Skyrim.

Given the fact the Nords are bitching about current taxes, and the amount of resources the Empire are taking out of Skyrim with Cyrodiil stable... But in your views it would have been all good.

nogz said:

and the lore says the war ended with the WGC, Hamerfell rejected it, Skyrim is in open revolt, etc.

Click to expand...

What? The first war ended, yes. Hammerfell rejected the WGC, good for them.

Skyrim is having a Nordic Civil War, only the Stormcloaks are in open revolt.

nogz said:

The Dominion did win the war, you can try to rationalize it all you want, that doesn't change a thing. The war was about the demands of the treaty, which they got in full beside the Hammerfell part. That's like saying if the Emperor agreed to the demands in the first place it would mean the Empire won and the Dominion lost. LOL.

Click to expand...

The war was about agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, the Empire was not going to simply roll over. No it does not mean if the Emperor agreed to the demands in the first place the Empire would have won, they would have lost. Hammerfell would have been completely defeated had the Empire agreed to the terms, and then the Empire would have Civil War everywhere, not just Skyrim twenty six years later.

nogz said:

Even every single Jarl and character in the game pretty much agrees that the Empire was defeated and the Dominion won big time.

Click to expand...

Actually, mainly the Stormcloaks say that. Others mention the Empire was saved to fight another day. Had the Empire truly been defeated, things would be a lot worse.

nogz said:

And why would the Empire be gone anyway? That wasn't really the plan of the Dominion nor is it in the near future. And it's smart too if you think about it, they'd need that administrative and political control at least at first, otherwise they'd be faced with revolts every 5 seconds. No, their plan now is near perfect, make the Empire weak, infiltrate it, make it submit, use it against its own people etc. That's the most effective way to make slaves of the humans really. Galmar Stone-Fist I think it was says it best really - the Empire's Jarls and High King are puppets of the Emperor who is a puppet of the Thalmor. You don't need the Empire gone, you only need to submit to your will. At first at least.

Click to expand...

It wasn't "really" the plan of the Dominion... Establish elven superiority over mankind, destroying the Empire would make the Dominion uncontested as a power. They tried pretty hard to wipe them out in the Great War.

The Thalmor would never be able to control the Empire like you're suggesting. Thalmor have been infiltrating the Empire's lands for around one hundred and fifty years, they couldn't even work out the Empire's strength prior to the Great War.

Lets just say they put in place a puppet ruler, and in your Stormcloak views he agrees to "more demands, more and more and more" how long do you believe he would last? He would need to be a Thalmor sympathizer to be of any great use, he and along with the entire Elder Council would need to be working for the Thalmor to agree to everything for no reason.

The Colovians would simply overthrow them.

General Charles Xander said:

Cue the random and irrelevant spouting of delusional propaganda...

:/

Click to expand...

You know what I like about the Stormcloaks, they blame the Empire for banning Talos. Say they're cowards and any other insult under the sun.

Titus Mede II outlaws Talos in an effort to allow the Empire a chance to rebuild. He's bad and evil.

Yet Ulfric trades one of his Holds to the Empire in Season Unending, now that means he's accepting that the Talos Ban will now be enforced in the Hold he's giving away. He knows that, one of the main things he yells about. People dying over worship, Empire greedy etc.

Ulfric allows the Talos Ban to occur in exchange for... silver mines. He's great and awesome?

The Emperor continues the war. Yes, the legions lost half their forces, big deal. They lose another 1/3 or take even greater loses but he crushes the Dominion army in Cyrodiil. They focus on Hammerfell but it takes care of the problem more or less alone (which it did btw). High Rock and Skyrim take extra pain and loses but restore order after some time. The Dominion is crushed and humiliated. It has to pay massive amounts of gold as reparations which the Emperor uses to pay off the bandits, pirates and to rebuild. Or to hire mercenaries to deal with the problem, whatever. All the same. Speculation and fantasy is easy. The truth is we'll never know, because that's not the story. But it's easy to shift in whatever direction you want to fit your argument. You make the worst case scenario, using factors like oh, it takes them so long to restore order after they surrendered? So what? It may take them even more after a brutal war with most of their forces destroyed. I'm failing to see how any of this matters if the war was won. The important part would have been that they don't have to agree to the Dominion's demands, not how long it would have taken them to rebuild or restore order.

>Hammerfell quits and hates the Empire
>Skyrim is in civil war
>Thalmor gets everything they wanted

>Saved

Pick one.

Well, we saw how long Mede II lasted, about 25 years.

nogz said:

The Emperor continues the war. Yes, the legions lost half their forces, big deal. They lose another 1/3 or take even greater loses but he crushes the Dominion army in Cyrodiil.

Click to expand...

Legions lost more than half their forces. If you lose three complete Legions, and the remaining are at or less than half strength.

So he crushes the Dominion army in Cyrodiil, and the Legions that were decimated after Red Ring have become even more so.

nogz said:

They focus on Hammerfell but it takes care of the problem more or less alone (which it did btw).

Click to expand...

So they focus on Hammerfell, but it takes care of itself? That will take five more years.

nogz said:

High Rock and Skyrim take extra pain and loses but restore order after some time.

Click to expand...

How? High Rock is unable to even keep Wayrest from falling after five years of supplying the war, now what is their situation after ten years?

How is Skyrim able to take the extra pain? They can barely handle months of supplying Tullius' forces in Western Skyrim, even then Cyrodiil is sending ships with resources. Cyrodiil is in ruins at this time.

Skyrim managed several years of this? Supplying an even larger force?

nogz said:

The Dominion is crushed and humiliated. It has to pay massive amounts of gold as reparations which the Emperor uses to pay off the bandits, pirates and to rebuild. Or to hire mercenaries to deal with the problem, whatever. All the same. Speculation and fantasy is easy.

Click to expand...

So the Dominion is "crushed" and "humiliated" even though we were unable to finish them off in Hammerfell. Or did we some how destroy them there too?

Why would the Dominion be forced to pay massive amounts of gold? Empire aren't making any sacrifices on their part, you're after the treaty where they leave no bans. So wouldn't it be like the Redguard's treaty?

Emperor pays off pirates and bandits, is it a one time payment or will they blackmail for more money over the next several years since they know they've got the Empire by the balls if they're offering money to stop.

nogz said:

The truth is we'll never know, because that's not the story. But it's easy to shift in whatever direction you want to fit your argument. You make the worst case scenario, using factors like oh, it takes them so long to restore order after they surrendered? So what? It may take them even more after a brutal war with most of their forces destroyed. I'm failing to see how any of this matters if the war was won. The important part would have been that they don't have to agree to the Dominion's demands, not how long it would have taken them to rebuild or restore order.

Click to expand...

You fail to see how it matters because you fail to understand the war isn't won. Do you call a stalemate, victory? You haven't won plops until you've conquered Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr.

"Who cares how long it takes to rebuild, who cares how long it takes to restore order."

So while you're prancing about "we won! we won!" the Dominion is doing what exactly? I'd say they would be lining their borders again, just as they are twenty six years after the White-Gold Concordat.

Who cares though right? Cause we won...

The Dominion won the war against the Empire because the Empire capitulated and agreed to their demands aka treaty. The stalemate was with Hammerfell, after that the Dominion left Hammerfell aka Hammerfell won that war. Your rationalization or opinion on the matter is simply irrelevant. If the Empire continued the war and crushed the Dominion and they sign a treaty that features none of the elves demands the Empire would have won. What has conquering the Dominion has to do with anything? Not every winner in a war has to conquer his enemy to be considered to have won a war..

Well, of course they'd be preparing for the next war. The Empire would be doing the same. Without Hammerfell quitting and Skyrim in a state of a civil war I may add..

nogz said:

The Dominion won the war against the Empire because the Empire capitulated and agreed to their demands aka treaty. The stalemate was with Hammerfell, after that the Dominion left Hammerfell aka Hammerfell won that war. Your rationalization or opinion on the matter is simply irrelevant. If the Empire continued the war and crushed the Dominion and they sign a treaty that features none of the elves demands the Empire would have won. What has conquering the Dominion has to do with anything? Not every winner in a war has to conquer his enemy to be considered to have won a war..

Well, of course they'd be preparing for the next war. The Empire would be doing the same. Without Hammerfell quitting and Skyrim in a state of a civil war I may add..

Click to expand...

Soooo the Empire lost because they signed a truce and Hammerfell is in a stalemate because they pushed the Dominion back? Wut?

If his opinion is irrelevant unrational, then why are you asking his opinion on a hypothetical scenario?

You do know that the point of a treaty is to appeal to the needs of both sides to prevent further retaliation?
You are right to say that sometimes you do not need to invade enemy territory to win, however, in most/nearly all cases of conflict, it is required to do so. The Thalmor are no exception to this, and if you, with all due respect, deny this, then you are just blind to your own ignorance.

The Civil War is just a sideshow to the Empire. What are they focusing on? What are they devouting all of their attention to? What do they worry about the most? The Dominion. While the Empire is pouring all of it's resources to win the next war and be rid of the Thalmor, what is Ulfric doing? Taking all that time to annex Skyrim instead of focusing on the enemy he has sworn to rid of.

They didn't just sign a "truce" to stop the war. The Empire agreed to all of the Thalmor's demands that they wanted out of the Empire before the war. Meaning the Empire simply lost the war. You know that war that they fought to not do what the elves wanted them to do? Yeah that one. It would have been "truce" if the WGC simply stated that both parties would stop fighting for X time which is not what the WGC is.

The point of the treaty is to appeal to the needs of both sides?? WHAT?? None of the treaty benefits the Empire in any way beside that the war would be over obviously. There isn't a single source that says the elves got a bad deal out of it! Every source simply points out that the WGC is identical to what the elves wanted in the first place. Meaning the elves won the war, they got what they came for in the end (beside Hammerfell obviously).

Whatever they signed the WGC because they also wanted or needed some pause in the fighting is irrelevant. It isn't even that much of a truce in the first place because it doesn't state for how long both sides won't try to go to another war with each other. For all the Empire knew at the time the Dominion could have attacked again in the next year or so.

No, the civil war is a sideshow to the Dominion, if I were them I"d be kicking it at the beach with some margaritas or if I can't afford that it I'd be shoving popcorn in my face.. The point of the civil war in Skyrim is that the Empire is crumbling, even more so after the supposed "saving" by the Emperor with the WGC.

You can argue back and forth till the end of time about who would have won the war if the Emperor decided to continue fighting. It's pointless. There is no arguing though that whatever he wanted it or not, ironically his decision to sign the WGC is what's causing the Empire to collapse around him anyway:

>Hammerfell is out and hates the Empire now
>Skyrim is revolting
>Resources are being wasted obviously
>Thalmor kicking it and living large

All because of the WGC. Truly he "saved" the Empire with the WGC. Great move.

nogz said:

The Dominion won the war against the Empire because the Empire capitulated and agreed to their demands aka treaty. The stalemate was with Hammerfell, after that the Dominion left Hammerfell aka Hammerfell won that war. Your rationalization or opinion on the matter is simply irrelevant. If the Empire continued the war and crushed the Dominion and they sign a treaty that features none of the elves demands the Empire would have won. What has conquering the Dominion has to do with anything? Not every winner in a war has to conquer his enemy to be considered to have won a war..

Click to expand...

Conquering Summerset Isle is the only way to defeat the Thalmor. Hammerfell won nothing, they survived, same as the Empire. White-Gold Concordat or Second Treaty of Stros M'kai they only offered survival.

What did the Redguards win? Nothing, they held onto what they've always had at great cost.

nogz said:

Well, of course they'd be preparing for the next war. The Empire would be doing the same.

Click to expand...

Which the Empire may not even be in any position to be doing so, they barely managed to do restore order as it is. The White-Gold Concordat itself wasn't the cause for most of the problems, only decades later did it cause one rebellion.

nogz said:

Without Hammerfell quitting and Skyrim in a state of a civil war I may add..

Click to expand...

With two ruined provinces and the Empire's strength in an even weaker state with Skyrim/High Rock struggling to recover from the amount of resources they sunk into the war when Cyrodiil was lost, that is if they even would keep supplying it for much longer.

Take a look throughout TES history of any time the Empire is suffering from lack of Imperial authority. You're under the assumption that local rulers would continue to back Imperial interests when the Empire is confined to Cyrodiil with their extremely tiny army for even longer.

Hammerfell quitting? I'd say 50/50 with the Crowns and Forebears having come together, that hasn't happened since before the Reman Empire absorbed Hammerfell and started the division.

Hammerfell won the war, the elves couldn't force them to give up part of their land. The Empire would have been in a bad shape that's for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't have been able to get back up on their feet. Why wouldn't local rulers continue to back up the Empire if the WGC was only about both sides not continue fighting? Everyone would realize that the war was won but with great costs and staying together is the best option. The Empire would be weak for some time, but morale and support for it would be strong. With the WGC as it is though, the Empire is both weak militarily and in spirit. You say the Stormcloaks are a small force, and they are at the start of their campaign but they have support or people who pretty much agree with them in every part of Skyrim. Just because not 'all' of their supporters pick up arms against the Empire doesn't mean they agree with the Empire about the WGC. Look, whatever you want to admit it or not, the WGC for the Empire is as much about their supposed survival as it is about their ultimate downfall. Even w/o Skyrim in civil war, look what the WGC did, lost them a whole province, the Blades, the outlawing of Talos and Thalmor agents running around their territory doing whatever they want etc. All of this hurts them in the long run. The only lost the Dominion had was about Hammerfell, they got everything else they wanted out of the war. Mainly, a very weaken Empire, submitting to their demands which sets the stage for an even easier invasion / war next time around.

nogz said:

Hammerfell won the war, the elves couldn't force them to give up part of their land.

Click to expand...

Hammerfell won nothing. They devastated their province and fought to a standstill, either making it too costly or wrecking enough to lose any value.

Just because the Redguards could continue in their lands, doesn't mean the Empire was in any shape after the Battle of the Red Ring.

nogz said:

The Empire would have been in a bad shape that's for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't have been able to get back up on their feet.

Click to expand...

They barely recovered with what they had, you're suggesting they would be able to do so with less resources/manpower and more problems.

nogz said:

Why wouldn't local rulers continue to back up the Empire if the WGC was only about both sides not continue fighting? Everyone would realize that the war was won but with great costs and staying together is the best option.

Click to expand...

You've just been draining their resources for ten years, in the last five even more so. After the war even more resources are going out before they're going to see any return. The local rulers look to their own interests first, and you're asking them to continue to support you when you're unable to provide any means of assistance for a very long time.

Look at Skyrim during the Civil War, take away the Talos Ban/Stormcloaks and look at the secondary issues of resources and manpower being drained. Loss of control along the roads, more crime and citizens living in fear of starvation or being killed by bandits and dangerous creatures. Now that is from months of supplying a lot to war effort. What would it be if they had to supply many times more for years? Why should they back you when you're unable to restore one province quickly enough, and draining their resources to do so.

You have little soldiers remaining, resources are scarce and while the local rulers are barely able to handle their own problems you're asking for more. If the Empire had more provinces, okay. But High Rock and Skyrim supporting Cyrodiil for five extra years of warfare, and then more while they try restore order?

nogz said:

The Empire would be weak for some time, but morale and support for it would be strong.

Click to expand...

Why would morale be strong? Living in fear, mass starvation, thousands who are homeless, and many people fleeing from Cyrodiil to escape the violence brought about by lack of control. Morale would be fl*ffing low, and the more you take the from the provinces the higher the risk of a revolt over resources than religion.

The provinces are struggling after ten years of supplying war, their resources are again being diverted to Cyrodiil so they can regain control. Which will take an even longer time, that is if they could even restore order with a smaller military force.

nogz said:

With the WGC as it is though, the Empire is both weak militarily and in spirit.

Click to expand...

They would be in even worse shape had they continued. If the Empire took too long to recover Cyrodiil, the provinces would take advantage or even directly oppose their rule.

nogz said:

You say the Stormcloaks are a small force, and they are at the start of their campaign but they have support or people who pretty much agree with them in every part of Skyrim.

Click to expand...

The Empire has the exact same support in every part of Skyrim.

The Stormcloaks are not exactly at the start, they've been around for many years. Only the open conflict is at the start, and most issues with the Thalmor Justiciars being more recent.

nogz said:

Just because not 'all' of their supporters pick up arms against the Empire doesn't mean they agree with the Empire about the WGC.

Click to expand...

Never said they did agree with the Empire if they agree with the Stormcloaks. That would contradict it. Citizens who support neither side do not agree with the Stormcloaks, they mostly fear Imperial/Stormcloak soldiers taking what they want.

nogz said:

Even w/o Skyrim in civil war, look what the WGC did, lost them a whole province,

Click to expand...

Hammerfell wasn't even that useful to the Empire at the time, they were too divided and only Cyrodiil/High Rock/Skyrim were prosperous.

After Red Ring they were occupied, after Second Treaty of Stros M'kai they were completely devastated.

nogz said:

the Blades,

Click to expand...

The Blades were all but destroyed during the Great War, and they were never an arm of the Imperial Government. Losing the Blades is akin to losing some guild. Sure they were useful against the Thalmor for a short time, but they underestimated their enemy.

nogz said:

the outlawing of Talos

Click to expand...

Which only affected Cyrodiil and Skyrim, and became more of an issue in the last few years.

nogz said:

and Thalmor agents running around their territory doing whatever they want etc.

Click to expand...

They've been doing that long before the White-Gold Concordat. 191 years if they assassinated Ocato.

I'd be more concerned about what they're doing secretly, than openly.Thalmor Justiciars are the least of our worries, them you can at least see by their fancy coats.

Even without the Stormcloaks to indirectly support, the Thalmor would find others.

nogz said:

All of this hurts them in the long run. The only lost the Dominion had was about Hammerfell, they got everything else they wanted out of the war.

Click to expand...

The Dominion got a Talos Ban that was so poorly enforced that everyone still had their little shrine to Talos in Skyrim for a good many years without problem.

nogz said:

Mainly, a very weaken Empire, submitting to their demands which sets the stage for an even easier invasion / war next time around.

Click to expand...

I would disagree. The Legions on their border would make any invasion harder, and being prepared makes all the difference. Dominion's success in the Great War was largely due to surprise and keeping the Empire on the run. The Empire seems to be preparing for a large Military campaign, even securing their rear by the mentions of a staging ground into Morrowind "just in case".

It would set the stage for an even easier invasion had the Empire went beyond their limits in the Great War. Had they continued you run the risk of them not being able to even restore order in the aftermath.

The Thalmor are cool. And I'm not just saying that because I like the culture and history of Altmer.

Reaper87 said:

The Thalmor are cool. And I'm not just saying that because I like the culture and history of Altmer.

Click to expand...

Love the culture too. Only that I find it more hilarious than interesting per se.

Why not just ask dovahkin to end the Aldmeri Dominion. I mean he runs the dark brotherhood, the thieves guild, the college of winterhold, and the companions. He has numerous followers, several dragons, beasts, and spirits which he can summon to his aid. And pretty much every entity, daedric lord and god owes him for helping them. Not to mention shouts and spells for any occasion and a stockade of armor, weapons, and powerful artifacts.
He could probably walk up to the white-gold tower in the Aldmeri Dominion, walk right in, and kick some thalmor asses.