Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Solitude has the best defense, are you fuc*ing kidding me? Situated on a hill with a rocky crag below them, i.e. Natural Defense is on point. On top of that cavalcade of cold sharp stony death is Solitude, the industrious bastion of a city protected by multitudinous walls higher than the tallest giant. Oh and what you really HAVE to explain to me is how the Stormcloaks are going to STORM Solitude if Erikur stops funding them. He's full of shi* that Erikur, he's a business who only cares for the pitter-patter of coin. A disgrace to all things Nordic.

Not if the Legion wasn't there. The Nords are hardy people, and most of your folk come from the East; and Eastern Skyrim is an icy fortress itself. Climbing up a rock doesn't even compare to "must-not-freeze-to-death". And Erikur doesn't fund the Stormcloaks, da heck?

An Impenetrable nation doesn't need much backup don't you think? Oh Yeah, THAT'S why he got captured fighting besides his soldiers. He's obviously a coward. Step up your game.

You're not serious, are you? Trained Legions vs aging veterans and "warriors" who practiced for at best a few hours before being sent off to march into battle. The Nords aren't 'impenetrable'.

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."―Ulfric Stormcloak

Yes yes, pretty words. Ulfric should have become a bard instead of a warlord.

Obviously the people want this. It would have erupted with or without Ulfric. Who is he to deny the call of the Nords?

Only half the people want this, and even now there are plenty of "omg just end it already"-minded folks in Windhelm. Especially Falkreath's citizens are all like "meh". They just want to get their daily routines back.

Again, he'll keep to himself as detestable as his profane actions are. Really dont see him interfering with the Stormcloaks all the way out in those Ice Fields, nor do I see him building up an army anytime soon.

So as long as the Stormcloaks aren't harmed it's fine? Yeah, f!ck those civilians. Bitch wasn't cute anyway.

Uhh anyone who will accept trade? Morrowind, Hammerfell, High Rock... Hell, The Empire will probably still do business, obviously they have things they want in Skyrim and we have things they want. Do you know how trade works?

Nords didn't have iphones, merchants have to come over for a visit and then contracts and deals are made. But nobody is going to come visit Skyrim as long as there's dragons, Stormcloaks and bandits on the loose.

Are there even pigeons in Tamriel?

Yes, there are. They are mentioned in TESO.

"So what did you bring?" - "Chef Artoine's deluxe picnic collation from the Anchor's Point inn! A brace of rock pigeons, grilled and deboned, with combwort chutney, ballom pudding, and a jug of syllabub. Unless for pigeon…."

There's also some propaganda tale about someone called Prince Pigeon.

Would it mean that this yokel is a contender to the Ruby Throne? Heir to the Dragon Empire, Starry Heart of Nirn, and Seat of Sundered Kings?

No, he would most likely be brutally murdered by his mother-in-law.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Not if the Legion wasn't there. The Nords are hardy people, and most of your folk come from the East; and Eastern Skyrim is an icy fortress itself. Climbing up a rock doesn't even compare to "must-not-freeze-to-death". And Erikur doesn't fund the Stormcloaks, da heck?
Even if the Legion wasn't there, the Housecarl seems to think it's harming them;
Bolgeir: "We lost another five guardsmen, my Jarl. If General Tullius continues to conscript our men and send them off to battle, we'll have none left to protect the city."
Elisif: "Yes, I know. The general acted with my blessing. It is vital that we bring Ulfric to justice, but that cannot happen until his army of Stormcloaks is defeated utterly."
Bolgeir: "Told you that, did he? I'm sworn to protect you, my Jarl, but I'm the last line of defense. The first line is the walls around this city and the men who patrol them. Men who, I might add, we're precious short on."
Elisif: "I'm aware of that, Bolgeir, and I appreciate your dedication. However, if we lose the war, the guardsmen of Solitude will make little difference in the end."
Bolgeir: "No disrespect toward the general, but sometimes I wonder if he's got your best interests at heart. In any case he won't be turnin' me into no Imperial soldier. I know my place, and it's at your side."
Elisif: "It comforts me to know that, Bolgeir."

The Imperials are conscripting Solitude's guards to fight the war. What really gets me is that you're speaking as if the Legion is just defending Solitude, it's not, it's fighting a war with Rebellious guerrillas and Solitude is a ways away.

You're not serious, are you? Trained Legions vs aging veterans and "warriors" who practiced for at best a few hours before being sent off to march into battle. The Nords aren't 'impenetrable'.
First of all, I was talking about Skyrim. No standing army would be able to invade Skyrim with its innumerable natural barriers and buffer zones.
Second, those "warriors" put up a pretty goddamn decent fight, so I'd watch your tongue.

Yes yes, pretty words. Ulfric should have become a bard instead of a warlord.
You can't deny the Pathos in those words. The tempestuous flurry of passion and emotion. It only makes you look petty.

Only half the people want this, and even now there are plenty of "omg just end it already"-minded folks in Windhelm. Especially Falkreath's citizens are all like "meh". They just want to get their daily routines back.
I don't know. I agree that a lot of people don't really give a plops, but in the side between Empire and Stormcloak there's definitely way more Stormcloak leaning than there are Imperials.

So as long as the Stormcloaks aren't harmed it's fine? Yeah, f!ck those civilians. Bitch wasn't cute anyway.
It just wouldn't be directly harmful to Skyrim as a whole.

Nords didn't have iphones, merchants have to come over for a visit and then contracts and deals are made. But nobody is going to come visit Skyrim as long as there's dragons, Stormcloaks and bandits on the loose.
Why do THEY have to come to US. Why can't we request trade from other nations? It's not as if we are so vacant of resources that we are simply unable to send a few boats out to various provinces. Hammerfell would probably do SPLENDID business with us.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
The Empire, your Empire is going to collapse, Mage. The center cannot hold.

Can't you see Elven Supremacy is the ONLY Truth?!??!!!

Cicero's writings among several other sources paint a picture of a Cyrodiil in ruins with cities growing cancerous, even my fav Imp City from Oblivion, Chey gets reduced to Old Downtown Detroit. With public executions and armed militiamen, bandits, other vagabonds killing in the streets.

The cancer will kill Cyrodil, except for perhaps Bruma and only because of the Skyrim influence there.

What the Empire will gain and the ONLY thing it will gain by quelling the Civil War in Skyrim is the chance to be reborn, being given a 'new heart' if you will.

Once Cyrodiil and your defenses collapse for good, for many years the Empire will be driven out of Cyrodiil. Nord traditions, culture and 'the hard road' will be merged into Cyrodiilic Imperialism, with the Imperial system preserved in Skyrim while the rest of the world burns. Not unlike Spain or Britain during the Fall of Rome. If Morrowind should join you, perhaps the new 'respectable' Imperials will relearn the ways of the Akaviri, from the good old days in the Reman Empire.

However, if someone like Ulfric should rule instead, Skyrim will survive under a quazi-Communist state or Tribal Council, leading to Feudalism. A tough case to crack and almost guaranteed never to be conquered by anyone from the outside however the Imperial system will be destroyed. A far greater casualty than losing Cyrodiil itself.

There are pros and cons of both however I do think the Empire idea would be more interesting. Imperials who stop acting like children and start becoming men. That's not a bad thing.

You will never be rid of the Dominion however. Never. :) Though the Empire will die, the Dominion will always be waiting for you.

Reman, Septim, the puppet theater and the Medes have all learned you can never stop the will of the Thalmor.

If only you understood the irony.
 
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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Doesn't matter, the alliance was broken after Old Hroldan fell. The armies of Skyrim belonged to the Nord nobles who feared the expansion of the Imperials again. Talos being Dragonborn doesn't mean they won't fight against him when his politics differs from theirs.
Wait, what? Old Hroldan fell before Sancre Tor did, and all of this was before Cuhlecain was killed. The supposed war with the Nords supposedly commenced after Tiber Septim took the Ruby Throne. It's also stated that he pacified Old Hroldan with a Nordic army.

Stormcloaks will try and kill an Empire sided Dragonborn. They don't grovel at your feet.
Yeah, that would be a REALLY fun quest if they DID.

Obj 1:Walk by the Nords groveling at your feet and secure Windhelm.
Obj 2:Allow Ulfric to commence fellatio in accordance with Old Nordic Traditions
Obj 3: Win.

Isn't on the Stormcloak agenda since they support Laila and Skald. Take what you can get in politics.
Never said it was, but you seem to defend your course as though the Imperials do which they clearly don't.

He can't risk losing, that is his issue. Nordic Tradition only matters when it will benefit him.
Trust me friend, a Skyrim under Elisif is not a dystopia in which you want to live in. I'm not quite sure you Imperials would play fair in the election either, all things considered. Of course the Imperials would have more sway with rich nobles, who by the way will be the governing body of the Moot, whereas Ulfric appeals to the common man. Question for you: What kind of man would Ulfric (who is known and respected by the Children of Skyrim for being a fiery rebellious warrior) look like to his soldiers were he to allow Elisif to take the throne unopposed?

And Ulfric isn't.
Because it's totally fair to judge a man's ability to lead as he wages total war on an enemy that's stronger than him.

What is overlooked? Erikur has a side deal with a pirate Captain?
Well that, and his other myriad of corrupt and shady dealings.

And he uses them. Solitude Guards being sent to the front lines is no different. They're able bodied men and women, know how to use a sword.

Hold Guards are not sellswords, they're sworn to fight for their Jarl. The Jarls in the East have sworn fealty to Ulfric, their soldiers thus serve him too.
But there's a clear difference here. That difference being that one of these cities is the luxurious, civilized and frankly sissified city of Solitude, and the other is the rugged working class mining port city of Dawnstar, whose citizens might I add often take it upon themselves to repel the numerous bandit raids and animal attacks that constantly afflict the residents. Here's a few excerpts:
Frida: "Now, who was it that kidnapped the Jarl's son 20 years ago?"
Thoring: "You mean Hildolf the Skull-Splitter? Remember when we rounded up the townspeople and dragged him out of that cave?"
Frida: "Those were the days. I'd never seen my husband fight so bravely before."
Thoring: "Aye, to your husband. Divines bless his memory."

Frida: "Thoring, do you remember the time when that wolf pack come clamoring into town?"
Thoring: "How could I forget? That old alpha male almost took off my leg."
Frida: "Never did find out why they came sprawling into town like that."
Thoring: "Animals in the Pale don't need a reason to attack Dawnstar. It's just their nature."
Frida: "Dawnstar has always held its own against the bandits and wild animals of the Pale."

Karita: "Did you ever have to fight off bandits, Frida? Like in your stories?"
Frida: "Why, I once fought alongside your father when we were both younger. Saved him from getting his fool head sliced off."
Karita: "Who were you fighting against?"
Frida: "Oh, dearie, it was so long ago. But I do remember the celebration we had afterwards. Mead never tasted so good."
(Side Note: Frida's a real badass)


The conscription of guards from Dawnstar would not nearly affect the city as much as it would from Solitude. Especially with the way Bolgeir puts it;

Bolgeir: "We lost another five guardsmen, my Jarl. If General Tullius continues to conscript our men and send them off to battle, we'll have none left to protect the city."
Elisif: "Yes, I know. The general acted with my blessing. It is vital that we bring Ulfric to justice, but that cannot happen until his army of Stormcloaks is defeated utterly."
Bolgeir: "Told you that, did he? I'm sworn to protect you, my Jarl, but I'm the last line of defense. The first line is the walls around this city and the men who patrol them. Men who, I might add, we're precious short on."
Elisif: "I'm aware of that, Bolgeir, and I appreciate your dedication. However, if we lose the war, the guardsmen of Solitude will make little difference in the end."
Bolgeir: "No disrespect toward the general, but sometimes I wonder if he's got your best interests at heart. In any case he won't be turnin' me into no Imperial soldier. I know my place, and it's at your side."
Elisif: "It comforts me to know that, Bolgeir."


You skipped a line. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down.

It used to take the Thalmor seven days of someone shouting about Talos in public to get arrested.
That really doesn't mean that it took them Seven days to round up every individual case of Thalmor Worship. You always use one incident as an undeniable testament to every other situation. It's not like that, it really isn't. Hell, maybe it took the Thalmor so long because they were just busy with other more time constraining things, like shipments of torture devices running late or whose mother won the Cloudrest Bridge regional finals. You never know man.

Besides the Justiciars are stretched thin and have limited resources. Bandits are killing more people than the Thalmor.

Bandits are also dragging people away in the middle of the night, you have a giant kidnapping operation in Eastmarch. Your own capital has one of the most organized and well funded bandit groups in the entire province. Bandits and shady mercenaries all the way to Windhelm are signing on with them.
but Bandits have always been a nuisance and they have always done these things. Not only this, but they will never become as big as a problem as the Thalmor.

They can do what other people in Skyrim do, keep it to themselves. The Talos Priests after Imperial Victory go on about how they'll defy the Thalmor and worship Talos in their hearts. Could have done that the first time around.
Yeah... Silently defying things is not really a Nord's forte, we prefer to just tell you straight out our bash your skull in. Just our way.

Here how about we change your question a bit more: You like eating ice cream, and eat it all the time whatnot. One day your house is invaded and your father beaten up, and after a large fight a truce is agreed. These men ban you from ice cream. You don't really pay much attention to it and eat ice cream in secret, and your father looks the other way. Your brother then starts eating ice cream more openly and shouting about eating ice cream because he's a fat rebel who thinks only about himself. These men get tougher and you can no longer get ice cream secretly, so your brother decides to attack your mother because she represents the authority of your father when he isn't there. These men enjoy this and decide to indirectly aid your brother as he destroys your home and your father's things. Then he tells you you're with him or against him, no middle ground. You help him destroy everything you know, or he'll destroy you. What do you do?

After this little victory over who gets ice cream, in your trashed house, the father leaves and then your brother suddenly goes "Oh, what if they just come back?" screen goes black and then it says the End...? dun dun dun.
I think what we both need to come together on is that this is a war of perspective. You obviously prefer to take the loyalist perspective which is "it was the fault of the selfish rebels who stirred up trouble in the first place." I look at it from the Nordic commonman's perspective and say "I've been getting plops on time and time again by the Empire that I (or my relatives) bled for and the Thalmor whom I (or my relatives) fought against, and what Ulfric's suggesting sounds pretty good." And how do we know people weren't being summarily taken in the middle of the night before the Reclamation of the Reach? How do we know it wasn't commonplace? Simply because there weren't more books or more open conversations? And what we all have to remember is that most commonmen aren't going to think like you do.

No it doesn't. Unless it is Morrowind or the Aldmeri Dominion now. Cyrodiil and the mankind provinces of the Empire has had all races in positions of power and never focued on a single ethnic group. All citizens are considered "Imperial" citizens. High Rock didn't focus solely on Bretons, even though they're the majority. Though Bretons hate themselves more than others... But anyway.
High Rock isn't Skyrim. How other cultures go about their laws is of no concern to you nosy Imperials.

"He uses this holy war as leverage in order to pursue the throne." - Laila
"The Stormcloaks are destined to win this fight. Talos is with us, and when you fight under a Divine's blessing, victory is assured." - Skald

"He's a fool, if you haven't met him already. Thinks Ulfric Stormcloak is invincible and spits dragon fire." - Frida

"Just like Talos himself at the Battle of Old Hroldan, reclaiming the Reach from those heathen natives." - Thongvor

Like Ysgramor, Ulfric Stormcloak is a true hero of Skyrim. His name will ring in Sovngarde for generations to come. Only he had the courage to single out King Torygg and challenge him to trial by arms. Ulfric's thu'um, a gift from Talos himself, struck down this traitorous ruler. - Nords Arise!

That is just one taste of what the Stormcloaks truly are. The supporters damn near worship Ulfric as a God, often comparing him to Talos or Ysgramor. His officers calling him the "truest of us all".

You're basically the Alessian Order 2.0 and instead of worshipping the One, you're about Talos and Ulfric.
Actually a lot of the Nords are simply doubtful of the Empire's strength and it's so called judicious rule over Skyrim.

"How'd you end up here?"
"My cousin disappeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. It wasn't long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner."

Never spoke of religion simply didn't like what the Empire was allowing the Thalmor to do.

I don't remember. Unless we're talking about the Reman Empire where Jarls had to uphold conscription quota.
No we were definitely talking about the Third Empire and the Old Holds reluctance in participation.

They once managed to conquer the Imperial City, don't underestimate the crazy deer head wearing bastards.
I don't doubt their ability to take one and murder everyone inside. Holding it seems to be their Achilles' Heel However

Reman managed to conquer Valenwood, Elsweyr and Summerset Isle without it. The Empire and Aldmeri Dominion were never officially at war with each other, Tiber sent them demands and they had skirmishes in which Talos' Colovian forces nicknamed them the "Old Mary" Dominion. The Thalmor did have representives at the Imperial City during this time, they had border disputes and threatened. The Third Legion did manage to conquer parts of Elsweyr and fought in Black Marsh for a bit though.

Tiber turned his attention on them after he had Morrowind, in which he was given Numidium and he used it. Legion was never given orders to attack Summerset Isle.
I seem to recall the Empire losing a battle to the Elves and it was a crushing defeat, however I can't quite recall the name of the battle;

No, but Militia can't be used forever.
Of course we'll establish a standing army but it's not as if every man in the province will be recruited.

They killed thousands of people. The Red Dragon of the Empire under the command of Lord Admiral Richton aided the West Imperial Navy in annihilating the Redguard's forces at the Battle of Hounding Bay.
Of course that was a Red Dragon which are considered to be the most powerful.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon#Red_Dragon

That can read and write better than some Nords? That have maps of Skyrim? The Forsworn rose twenty five years ago, they may be savage but they're not clueless.
Madanach can read and write. He's not definitive of every Forsworn. He is the King after all he would have a better education one could assume.

They still manage to infiltrate Jarl's courts and steer them.
One more reason to fight against Solitude.

Healers that are having trouble keeping up with wounded in the Civil War, a Daedric Plague should be easy for them, I'm sure. Though I bet them backwards Nords would blame the College for it.
The ones in Winterhold would anyway. We're not all backwards you puffed up stifflip

Only to be released shortly after. Are you this man's political tool, his poster boy?
Why not? If it drives up morale why wouldn't I?

Penitus Oculatus. They are not the Legion. Though yes, Colin was instructed to observe and kill a target. What Colin observed was curious, on how the old man never spoke to the same person twice, he gave a coded phrase and threatened him subtly. Most likely a Thalmor asset. That was the focus of the Penitus Oculatus at that time.

What does that have to do with morale? The Penitus Oculatus Inspectors are intelligence agents, what they do is secret.

I don't know, you tell me? Perhaps you can explain why messages are sent by courier? Why do the Stormcloaks and Legion use couriers and we get information about riders carrying messages to places in lore. Only long distance communication is done by Legion Battlemages.

Are there even pigeons in Tamriel?
One would assume, and you'd think an Empire with damn near infinite resources would find a better way of delivering messages. Running a courier from hold to hold can't be too proficient.

Acted like one, looked like one.
Not a Nord. It's all in the spirit.

"These Stormcloaks are ridiculous. They won't shop here because they think I'll sell them poisoned tonics. I should just go back to Cyrodiil." - Arcadia

And yet the racist Stormcloak Guards still recommend me to visit her shop. Maybe she's just been inhaling too many alchemy fumes. Mixing a bit of Moon Sugar in her potions here and there.

No it isn't. It is established few people are arriving. The Legion Legates constantly tell you they get few reinforcements, so they've been forced to recruit locally.
Which is what keeps brothers killing brothers.

You really cling to anything you can. Ulfric gets soldiers from those Holds, they are sent to the front lines. Thus being conscripted to fight. Tullius delights in it... Lol. Tullius doesn't conscript civilians, only redeploys soldiers of the Jarls who he commands as the Military Governor.[/quote]
Dawnstar can handle a few missing guards. Can Solitude?

Of course Ulfric would conscript from Holds loyal to him, the man isn't an idiot. You yourself are only questioned by Galmar because you're an outsider. You're not a citizen of Windhelm, nor are you a citizen of Skyrim.

Quite frankly the fact Tullius is using non-Legionaries and opened local recruiting to bolster his limited number is smart, the only reason you find a problem with it is because it is Tullius. When Ulfric does it "it isn't really him, it is this other jarl" you're just grasping and it gets more amusing with each new post.
It's the fact that Tulius has fooled these people into believing that he has Solitude's best interests in mind.

It doesn't matter, the cover is designed to look like a book. It is an old worn book, much like majority of the books in Skyrim.

A worn book and chipped wing doesn't = "EMPIRE IS DOOMED IT IS fl*ffED THEY'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!111"
No it does matter because that symbol means one thing in modern day Tamriel. The Empire. It's always meant the Empire, stop denying that, it's not just an old book cove. a huge theme of the entire game is the War that consumes Skyrim and how it weakens the Empire. The Empire isn't doomed per se but it is symbolic of it's slow degradation. The Empire is slowly dying.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I killed her during the ceremony.

Except you arrive at the wedding reception.

Either way, the point I was driving at was the couple was barely married if they were married all of 5 mins and then she doesn't just die but is assassinated.

Won't look good on the groom and his family.

Doesn't look good on the bodyguard.

What is it with you and the Dragonborn? I have NEVER been able to convince you to entertain this possibility.

The Dragonborn is a perfect fit. Absolutely perfect fit for Emperor / Empress.

Open a window man, smell the flowers, let in the winds of change.

Because it can't happen. Bethesda is going to create a Dynasty with a nameless, genderless and raceless person?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Wait, what? Old Hroldan fell before Sancre Tor did, and all of this was before Cuhlecain was killed. The supposed war with the Nords supposedly commenced after Tiber Septim took the Ruby Throne. It's also stated that he pacified Old Hroldan with a Nordic army.

....
- General Talos and his forces along with allied Nords to defeat the Reachmen.
- The Nords and Bretons invade Cyrodiil.
- Talos defeats them and the Nord Generals swear fealty to Talos.
-Talos captures the Imperial City with his Colovian and Nordic forces.

The alliance, or whatever little agreement they had for Old Hroldan obviously was broken until the Nord defeat at Sancre Tor. Or maybe it was a temporary thing, who knows.

Never said it was, but you seem to defend your course as though the Imperials do which they clearly don't.

I don't claim the Empire is perfect.

Trust me friend, a Skyrim under Elisif is not a dystopia in which you want to live in.

Oh? Seeing as how the Holds are large independent, Elisif does actually care about her people, and has fairly solid advisors. Skyrim has had far, far, so very far worse rulers.

I'm not quite sure you Imperials would play fair in the election either, all things considered. Of course the Imperials would have more sway with rich nobles, who by the way will be the governing body of the Moot, whereas Ulfric appeals to the common man.

The Moot is the Jarls. I assume Ulfric has political supporters.

Question for you: What kind of man would Ulfric (who is known and respected by the Children of Skyrim for being a fiery rebellious warrior) look like to his soldiers were he to allow Elisif to take the throne unopposed?

One who respects tradition and can accept when he loses. One Jarl decided he should have been elected High King, and they chose someone else. He decided instead to respect the tradition to oppose this and be a "fiery rebellious warrior". That Jarl started fifty years of Civil War, the destruction of the First Empire of the Nords, the sacking of Windhelm and the loss of everything the Ysgramor Dynasty achieved.

I wonder what he looked like to his soldiers? I wonder what he looked like to the hundred thousands of lives lost and homes destroyed.

Because it's totally fair to judge a man's ability to lead as he wages total war on an enemy that's stronger than him.

Because his only main action as Jarl has been to banish the Argonians. It is completely fair to judge a man's ability to lead as he wages a war he started, his actions are even more important during a war.

His people live in fear for their lives on the streets, his waters are overrun with pirates, he has the most organized and wealthy bandit group in Skyrim operating within his Hold. They're kidnapping and killing at will with no treaty to back them up. The Military Fort of his Hold is taken over by rogue wizards and his garrison all dead for a time. His Hold's source of lumber is barely operating and ignored, talk about lacking logistical sense. I would have thought wood was vital to his war effort and keeping his city standing as it falls apart in disrepair.

Quarter of his city hates him and is in a state of unrest, the Argonians who load and unload ships are against him and his Stormcloaks. So his own port is unsecure.

Don't give me the "far stronger enemy" the Legion in Skyrim is greatly limited, low on manpower and having serious supply problems. Ulfric controls two ports, both waters a plague with pirates.

Well that, and his other myriad of corrupt and shady dealings.

I'm sure he is completely open about them all. His corrupt and shady dealings was a trade agreement, which gets broken so he hires the Thieves Guild to frame the Captain for wasting his time. The audacity of it all, he's hardly the most dangerous criminal master mind.

But there's a clear difference here. That difference being that one of these cities is the luxurious, civilized and frankly sissified city of Solitude,

Which as a major city would have a fair number of guards and soldiers.

and the other is the rugged working class mining port city of Dawnstar, whose citizens might I add often take it upon themselves to repel the numerous bandit raids and animal attacks that constantly afflict the residents.

So the citizens are taking upon themselves to fight off the bandit raids and animal attacks, while Skald keeps sending more and more guard to fight for Ulfric. Leaving them with less defenses.

The conscription of guards from Dawnstar would not nearly affect the city as much as it would from Solitude. Especially with the way Bolgeir puts it;

It is affecting Dawnstar. Jod: "You keep pledging more and more of our guard to the frontlines. The way this is going, we won't be able to defend our own borders."

Solitude is a fairly safe city, and for the Stormcloaks to be at their gates would mean the vast majority of Legion forces have been defeated. Ulfric is using the soldiers from various Holds, their guards which act as police and military for the Jarls.

The Legion is quite limited, getting few reinforcements and just had a major garrison wiped off the face of the earth by Alduin. Them using Hold Guards is exactly what the Stormcloaks are doing, and to not do it would be foolish.

That really doesn't mean that it took them Seven days to round up every individual case of Thalmor Worship. You always use one incident as an undeniable testament to every other situation. It's not like that, it really isn't. Hell, maybe it took the Thalmor so long because they were just busy with other more time constraining things, like shipments of torture devices running late or whose mother won the Cloudrest Bridge regional finals. You never know man.

This case was someone going about Talos in public, for seven days inside a city where Thalmor Justiciars have headquarters. It shows a great deal about their presence before the war, and why it took so long for Ulfric to gain support.

but Bandits have always been a nuisance and they have always done these things. Not only this, but they will never become as big as a problem as the Thalmor.

Yeah, the bandits have always been around. Except this time they're out of control, and they're a bigger problem to the citizens than the Thalmor (Justiciars) are currently.

Yeah... Silently defying things is not really a Nord's forte, we prefer to just tell you straight out our bash your skull in. Just our way.

Their forte isn't important. They can do it and they are doing it.

Tekla: "Narri, do you think the war will ever end?"
Narri: "I think the war is just an excuse. If it does end there will be a new reason and a new place."
Tekla: "But what about the banning of Talos worship? Isn't that worth fighting about?"
Narri: "I don't know about you, Tekla, but all my prayers are silent and who I pray to is still my own to decide."


And how do we know people weren't being summarily taken in the middle of the night before the Reclamation of the Reach? How do we know it wasn't commonplace? Simply because there weren't more books or more open conversations? And what we all have to remember is that most commonmen aren't going to think like you do.

The Thalmor Justiciars didn't arrive until after Markarth. The treaty was brand new, but unknown to everyone the Thalmor were keeping a close eye on Ulfric ."It's the whole reason Ulfric revolted against the Empire. Well, the first reason anyway. Forsworn had taken over Markarth, and Ulfric and his men drove them out. Empire promised they'd be free to worship Talos afterwords. Pity no one told the Elves. Whole group of those Thalmor came and they demanded Ulfric's arrest."

High Rock isn't Skyrim. How other cultures go about their laws is of no concern to you nosy Imperials.

It is while Skyrim remains part of the Empire.

Actually a lot of the Nords are simply doubtful of the Empire's strength and it's so called judicious rule over Skyrim.

"How'd you end up here?"
"My cousin disappeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. It wasn't long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner."

Never spoke of religion simply didn't like what the Empire was allowing the Thalmor to do.

Not every single Stormcloak is the same. You do get those who are fighting because of the Thalmor stirring up trouble, some probably fight to escape farmer life or boring trades. The usual excuses to fight in war.

No we were definitely talking about the Third Empire and the Old Holds reluctance in participation.

That they've always been isolated geographically and politically, and always had that Skyrim for the Nords line of thinking? They've never really been massive Empire supporters.

I don't doubt their ability to take one and murder everyone inside. Holding it seems to be their Achilles' Heel However

Maybe, though they can learn.

I seem to recall the Empire losing a battle to the Elves and it was a crushing defeat, however I can't quite recall the name of the battle;

Battle of the Black Rocks. The Aldmeri Dominion caught the Third Legion by surprise and almost destroyed it.

Of course that was a Red Dragon which are considered to be the most powerful.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon#Red_Dragon

And? They've returned and they're in Skyrim.

Madanach can read and write. He's not definitive of every Forsworn. He is the King after all he would have a better education one could assume.

There are letters sent between Forsworn camps, written by the Forsworn. They're allied with Hag Ravens who are witches that do some sort of ritual. They're not simpletons.

One more reason to fight against Solitude.

Not really, not every Vampire is evil. Solitude's Court Wizard has served the city well. Don't even start that argument again.

The ones in Winterhold would anyway. We're not all backwards you puffed up stifflip

You're all backwards! Go back to the hills to scrouge a living off rocks!!

One would assume, and you'd think an Empire with damn near infinite resources would find a better way of delivering messages. Running a courier from hold to hold can't be too proficient.

There are ways, but require the Shadow Legion or a few other means.

And yet the racist Stormcloak Guards still recommend me to visit her shop. Maybe she's just been inhaling too many alchemy fumes. Mixing a bit of Moon Sugar in her potions here and there.

Yes, I bet they do. Given that only a few lines are different for Empire and Stormcloak Guards. The rest is just the same voice files.

Which is what keeps brothers killing brothers.

That people are joining willingly? Both the Legion and Stormcloaks are fighting for what they believe is right.

Dawnstar can handle a few missing guards. Can Solitude?

Can Windhelm?

It's the fact that Tulius has fooled these people into believing that he has Solitude's best interests in mind.

Same could be argued about Ulfric, that he has fooled people into believing that he has Skyrim's best interests in mind.

He doesn't even say anything to them, he keeps cancelling appointments. He does mention he gets enough delays from politicians though.

No it does matter because that symbol means one thing in modern day Tamriel. The Empire. It's always meant the Empire, stop denying that, it's not just an old book cove. a huge theme of the entire game is the War that consumes Skyrim and how it weakens the Empire. The Empire isn't doomed per se but it is symbolic of it's slow degradation. The Empire is slowly dying.

You and I are never going to agree on this one. I'm not denying that it is the symbol the Empire uses, however it is an old worn book that is chipped.

I don't see that as "Empire is slowly dying!!" I don't need some hidden secret meanings and symbols to show me the Empire has declined since the Third Era.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I don't know. I agree that a lot of people don't really give a pl***, but in the side between Empire and Stormcloak there's definitely way more Stormcloak leaning than there are Imperials.

Stormcloak ideology is "With us or against us" so people who don't give a plops, and want the war to end count against you. Those people seek the status quo which is Skyrim pre-rebellion.

Though perhaps you can number the Empire/Stormcloak favored to see if there are more people favoring one side over the other?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
With the recent debate over symbolism, I noticed something very interesting in-game. The next time you ever play Skyrim and you're wandering near a Legion Camp, take a close look at the compass/map icon for it. Might take you a moment to notice what is significant about it.

Now that is symbolism.

Bethesda are quite sneaky.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
With the recent debate over symbolism, I noticed something very interesting in-game. The next time you ever play Skyrim and you're wandering near a Legion Camp, take a close look at the compass/map icon for it. Might take you a moment to notice what is significant about it.

Now that is symbolism.

Bethesda are quite sneaky.


It also appears different from the Imperial Emblem on your flag and Gladius. Hmmp. It matters not, it's prob just a bug. Anyways, I think they slipped some tin foil in your Imperial Helmet there, Mage. I'm afraid all the drinking you've been doing isn't helping either.

Cyrodilic Brandy has a way of messing with your head, you see things which aren't really there.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I don't know. I agree that a lot of people don't really give a pl***, but in the side between Empire and Stormcloak there's definitely way more Stormcloak leaning than there are Imperials.

Stormcloak ideology is "With us or against us" so people who don't give a pl***, and want the war to end count against you. Those people seek the status quo which is Skyrim pre-rebellion.

Though perhaps you can number the Empire/Stormcloak favored to see if there are more people favoring one side over the other?

I'll do a rough search.

Empire: 78

Stormcloaks: 59

Not specified/hate both sides: 552

Okay so that was first search through NPCs of Skyrim (I left out a few unspecified).

Now the results were for Empire favored, or Empire aligned/Stormcloak favored, or Stormcloak aligned. I would say give or take a few. But, the first results is interesting none the less.

Edit: I had no idea there were that many fl*ffing named NPCs and I left out a fair few who I know for sure are connected to the Civil War or are from Dragonborn dlc. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:People
 
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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Yeah.

Though it is looking like the Empire has more aligned to them on the first search through.

Most named NPCs are indeed pro-Empire. Many factions in eastern Skyrim are either resentful of the Stormcloaks (Dunmer, Argonians), are only neutral on the outside when they're actually pro-Empire (like Maven and that fella from the EEC in Windhelm) or they're truly neutral/self-serving (like the Thieves Guild or the Summerset Shadows or the College of Winterhold up north; in Winterhold it's basically only Korir, his wife and the brainwashed kid who are anti-Elves/pro Stormcloak).
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Some insight into the mind of an Altmer.

The Eight have spoken to me! Me, of all the Mer in the Summerset Isles. They chose me. My mother always said I was destined for greatness.
 

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