Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yeah only if you're Nord.

He still jumps to her defense. Tullius isn't bad, and I wasn't surprised to see he had given up. He's a strategist and a pragmatic man, not some berserker warrior. I would have also given up being in his position, my forces are all but destroyed and headquarters is overrun.

He doesn't believe in that death or glory crap, though he isn't afraid to die for the Empire, and he faces his death quite well.

Though I don't believe Ulfric should have killed him, even when I was a devout Stormcloak, I felt it was wrong. He spares Elisif who is useless to him, but he kills Tullius who could have been used to broker peace between independent Skyrim and the Empire. Also would mean the Legion in Skyrim would leave, now the veterans hidden in the camps just continue to strike the Stormcloaks where they are weakest.

Tullius is a good man, and even feels the same as the Stormcloaks (He actually considered joining the Stormcloaks).

His death was meaningless, and it achieved nothing. The Legion had been crippled after the sack of Solitude, but still enough of a threat to the peace needed to rebuild. Tullius could have ended that.

"You have taken more lives than honor demanded. The cycle of retaliation may continue for some time." - Kodlak

It is good you show this dialogue, because Ulfric has no answer for Rikke.

Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."


Or how Ulfric avoids the truth of Tullius statement about being neither good or bad "But then what does that make you?"
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
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Huh. Hidden in plain sight. Hehehe. You don't see it and I as Thalmor can. Amazing, flffing amazing. What I mean is my interests vary and even though this is a video game, it still poses challenges that are similar to real life issues. One such issue in particular has always "bothered me" you might say. And now I have my answer - the final answer, last step in the puzzle. All because Raijin wanted to prove a point. Rather than bother explaining this, which would undoubtedly bring down the thread, I'll leave knowing it. And besides, let's be honest with ourselves, no one wants to hear this faith crap anymore anyways.

As for the Civil War, well, even if either of you were a real threat to Thalmor, you won't be for very much longer. You'll destroy each other long before ever seeing the golden gates of Alinor. Furthermore, you are left with no choice but to finish the Civil War without any possibility of a peaceful resolution. Ultimately, you'll lose in the end, no matter the apparent "winner". Fallout from the Civil War will last for years to come and continue to divide the Provinces, no matter who wins the WGC will rein supreme in the hearts and mind of many people. Should another Great War start, no one will ever be able to fully trust Cyrodil or the Empire or the Nords and Skyrim ever again.

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
I can remember all the way back when... to when I first arrived here. Much has happened... everything was different back then of course although, War - War Never Changes. And all the energy in the world would have gone to waste except... Well. Let's just say "Mission Accomplished". I'd provide a proper debrief however... I'm really not at liberty to say.

No more can I offer, no more can I advise. Helped you I have although you'll never know it. As Drunken Mage once said, the future is up to you now. That of Tamriel, the Empire.

My duty here is complete and the future awaits. Wish I had more time to stay and chat however...

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"...this is where I get off." :)
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
He still jumps to her defense. Tullius isn't bad, and I wasn't surprised to see he had given up. He's a strategist and a pragmatic man, not some berserker warrior. I would have also given up being in his position, my forces are all but destroyed and headquarters is overrun.


He doesn't believe in that death or glory crap, though he isn't afraid to die for the Empire, and he faces his death quite well.


Though I don't believe Ulfric should have killed him, even when I was a devout Stormcloak, I felt it was wrong. He spares Elisif who is useless to him, but he kills Tullius who could have been used to broker peace between independent Skyrim and the Empire. Also would mean the Legion in Skyrim would leave, now the veterans hidden in the camps just continue to strike the Stormcloaks where they are weakest.


Tullius is a good man, and even feels the same as the Stormcloaks (He actually considered joining the Stormcloaks).


His death was meaningless, and it achieved nothing. The Legion had been crippled after the sack of Solitude, but still enough of a threat to the peace needed to rebuild. Tullius could have ended that.


"You have taken more lives than honor demanded. The cycle of retaliation may continue for some time." - Kodlak


It is good you show this dialogue, because Ulfric has no answer for Rikke.


Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"

Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."

Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."

Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."

Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."


Or how Ulfric avoids the truth of Tullius statement about being neither good or bad "But then what does that make you?"
A General is suppose to be a berserker kind of warrior. When the time comes, during an active war, a General would join in with the fight with his troops to fight off against the enemy nearby. Trollius isn't just some strategist and a pragmatic man... hes also a solider who rose up in the ranks by proving his skills and his service to the Empire. And yes. He did rise up to defend Legate Rikke... pat on the shoulders for him, BUT! It still doesn't excuse the fact that he has GIVEN up, and essentially allowed his Legate to take over the operation. Rikke downright admitted to this in her own dialogue.

The man was afraid to die for his Empire as he tried to weasel himself out of being killed by suddenly becoming lucid.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e18

While I do agree with you that Ulfric shouldn't had killed him... it does go both ways. Trollius shouldn't had killed Ulfric either, or so eager to do it as hes playing right into the games of the Thalmor. Trollius isn't as innocent as you think he is.Trollius is very much of a savage that he speaks so negativity against those who do not want to follow the Empire.

The reason why Ulfric spared Elisif was for political advancement reasons. Falk would explain it better than I can ;)
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c1ab9

Ulfric gains a lot by sparing Elisif life. He is playing the ultimate game in the political world.

"You have taken more lives than honor demanded. The cycle of retaliation may continue for some time."- Kodlak

Says the man who ordered the player to not only murder 4 hagravens, but to viciously chop off their heads out of retaliation. Sorry but this mans words are meaningless to me.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Slowly drags Nyo and Anouck back into the thread...
 

Faithless Imperial

Atheist Arch Mage
I find it quite amusing that there are people on here with atheist characters, when in Tamriel the existence of the gods and that we have been created by gods has been proven. But that's a different subject all together, I suppose I will give my opinion on the Stormcloak and Imperial matter.

First of all, you don't have to believe they're gods they could just be a highly evolved beings, this time frame is not known for it's empirical science, so to say it's been proven in this narrative is false. Besides that, the polytheistic system is very anthropomorphized and looks suspiciously like humans just making up something more powerful than themselves, by anthropomorphizing. How have the Gods been proven scientifically or even to all people? Is that why people worship many different gods in Tamriel, just like in real life? because there is no god talking to anybody.

The scientific burden of proof has been solved? for fluff sakes no, next you'll be asking "Why are there so many scientific names when in the Skyrim world they use Alchemy?" a proven false science, so who cares, it's a fictional game where you can kill "gods." You know why? because this game is make believe, I don't see them proving themselves as gods in the game. What I see are fallible creatures who live and die like any other human, which is why polytheism kind of die off in real life, because it made gods look like people.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
A General is suppose to be a berserker kind of warrior.

No. Just no. That would be a bad General, one who doesn't think and goes for blood and glory.

When the time comes, during an active war, a General would join in with the fight with his troops to fight off against the enemy nearby.

Tullius does lead his men into battle at times, however he doesn't have to. A General goes where he is needed, depending on the situation. If he needs to command from the rear, the middle, the side or the front line.


Really? You going to keep using "Trollius"? It has worn out, and you don't see Imperials calling Ulfric Suckcocks and Galmar Fists-His-King.

isn't just some strategist and a pragmatic man... hes also a solider who rose up in the ranks by proving his skills and his service to the Empire.

Rose up the ranks? Maybe, or maybe he was Colovian nobility. We don't know how he became General. However, he is very skilled and his service to the Empire is great given he was the go-to General to deal with the uprising. He also nearly ended said uprising within a few months of arriving.

And yes. He did rise up to defend Legate Rikke... pat on the shoulders for him,

So if he rises to defend Rikke, what is the point you're trying to make?

BUT! It still doesn't excuse the fact that he has GIVEN up

In what way? He's a General without an army left. He can see no way in winning the battle, and dying for the sake of merely dying is just stupidity. Unlike Ulfric he doesn't give a single plops about better songs, or has some Sovngarde.

, and essentially allowed his Legate to take over the operation. Rikke downright admitted to this in her own dialogue.

Rikke remains defiant, and is pleading with Ulfric to stand down. Trying to make him see reason. If anything, Tullius is the smart one because Ulfric only sees in black and white.

The man was afraid to die for his Empire as he tried to weasel himself out of being killed by suddenly becoming lucid.

He isn't afraid to die, and he faces his death like any "True Nord" would have done. How did he try weasel himself out of dying? Becoming lucid? He's become easy to understand, intelligible, coherent? Given the fact he's just been stabbed and slashed a bit, I'm sure it is a feat.


While I do agree with you that Ulfric shouldn't had killed him... it does go both ways. Trollius shouldn't had killed Ulfric either,

Ulfric is the rebellion, he flames their passions and is what holds the cause together. The Stormcloaks are all but defeated with his death, Tullius' death has no real impact on the Legion. The Empire still stands and is strong enough to make Ulfric halt his war, to not give reason to be completely and utterly destroyed by Cyrodiil.

or so eager to do it as hes playing right into the games of the Thalmor.

In what way? Tullius firmly believes the Thalmor are behind the Civil War in Skyrim, and that they want Ulfric Stormcloak alive. (They did arrive in Helgen trying to take him off Legion hands)

Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. - Thalmor Dossier

Trollius isn't as innocent as you think he is.Trollius is very much of a savage that he speaks so negativity against those who do not want to follow the Empire.

Really? Yet he is able to admit that the Empire are neither the good guys or the bad guys. He is able to see the grey in all things, and he actually considered joining the Stormcloaks. He also admits Ulfric put up a good fight.

The reason why Ulfric spared Elisif was for political advancement reasons. Falk would explain it better than I can ;)
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c1ab9

Sparing her, okay. Leaving her in power?

Ulfric gains a lot by sparing Elisif life. He is playing the ultimate game in the political world.

Gains what? Elisif is still against him in private, and the Empire is still a threat who are planning on invading Skyrim with a secondary Legion force. He would have gained more sparing Tullius, showing the Empire in good faith he is willing to settle differences.


Says the man who ordered the player to not only murder 4 hagravens, but to viciously chop off their heads out of retaliation. Sorry but this mans words are meaningless to me.

Yet you use quotes from Ulfric who has thousands die, because he wouldn't ask his King directly to stand up for independence.

You always speak ill of Kodlak, when he is brought up. Yet he is respected by Ysgramor and the Nordic God Tsun... For a man who goes on about "Nord traditions" and "Nord faiths" etc. You don't really respect the most Nordic of the Nords.

Kodlak is an honorable man and a true Nord.

"Do not fail Kodlak. He's earned his place here, and does not deserve to fall prey to Alduin's insatiable hunger." - Ysgramor

"I welcome the chance to challenge the blade of Ysgramor's heir, honored shield-brother/sister to Kodlak Whitemane, whom I've watched for in vain." - Tsun
 
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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Boy, no matter who I argue for I just grow lazy and read other comments for simple entertainment.

Ah well, Imperial Library to the rescue;

The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos.
They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality.
And they're going to win in the end.


Taa daaa, end.

Ulfric Suckcocks and Galmar Fists-His-King

Mila-Kunis-Laughing-And-Wiping-The-Tears-Away-Reaction-Gif.gif
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
No. Just no. That would be a bad General, one who doesn't think and goes for blood and glory.

Tullius does lead his men into battle at times, however he doesn't have to. A General goes where he is needed, depending on the situation. If he needs to command from the rear, the middle, the side or the front line.

And why is that? Why would it make a General bad for having a berserker like mentality during an act of war?

General Trollius is a very well trained General, but Ill-Prepared for Battle, which in returns makes him a bad General. When things don't go exactly his way he breaks down and gives up. You can't dyne this because it's right there in the game.

Heres a better understanding


Really? You going to keep using "Trollius"? It has worn out, and you don't see Imperials calling Ulfric Suckcocks and Galmar Fists-His-King.

LOL! I was waiting for you to respond to it, and I finally got it :D Funny little story behind that new name for the General. I entered Castle Dour to arrange a temporary peace treaty, and thought I saw a frost troll talking to Legate Rikke... I do need to stop playing Skyrim just before I go to bed :D

While those insult names that you gave for Ulfric and Galmar is somewhat amusing, but it doesn't really make any sense :D You turned Galmar into an Argonian and with Ulfric... it doesn't really mean anything other than to call him a homosexual. It's not much of an insult to be honest with you. If Ulfric and Galmar are indeed gay, and perform sex acts on each other during peaceful hours... whats wrong with that?


Rose up the ranks? Maybe, or maybe he was Colovian nobility. We don't know how he became General. However, he is very skilled and his service to the Empire is great given he was the go-to General to deal with the uprising. He also nearly ended said uprising within a few months of arriving.

Like I said above General Trollius is a very skilled as hes very well trained.... however he is a poor choice for war-like situations. He simply cannot deal with the stress that comes with the job. When things don't go his way he breaks down.

So if he rises to defend Rikke, what is the point you're trying to make?

I already gave you my point. Just because he was programmed to rise up to defend Rikke doesn't excuse the fact that he gave up.

In what way? He's a General without an army left. He can see no way in winning the battle, and dying for the sake of merely dying is just stupidity. Unlike Ulfric he doesn't give a single pl*** about better songs, or has some Sovngarde.

Trollius is not a politician, Ulfric is. That's the difference between the two.

In what way? Tullius firmly believes the Thalmor are behind the Civil War in Skyrim, and that they want Ulfric Stormcloak alive. (They did arrive in Helgen trying to take him off Legion hands)

Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. - Thalmor Dossier

Yet Trollius did nothing to stop it. He kept on feeding the thalmor by wasting much resources fighting this useless war.


Gains what? Elisif is still against him in private, and the Empire is still a threat who are planning on invading Skyrim with a secondary Legion force. He would have gained more sparing Tullius, showing the Empire in good faith he is willing to settle differences.

I'm sure that Elisif is still against him in private, but she should accept this considering the fact that she was willing to let the Empire control everyone religious freedom in Skyrim.

Yet you use quotes from Ulfric who has thousands die, because he wouldn't ask his King directly to stand up for independence.

You always speak ill of Kodlak, when he is brought up. Yet he is respected by Ysgramor and the Nordic God Tsun... For a man who goes on about "Nord traditions" and "Nord faiths" etc. You don't really respect the most Nordic of the Nords.

Kodlak is an honorable man and a true Nord.

"Do not fail Kodlak. He's earned his place here, and does not deserve to fall prey to Alduin's insatiable hunger." - Ysgramor

"I welcome the chance to challenge the blade of Ysgramor's heir, honored shield-brother/sister to Kodlak Whitemane, whom I've watched for in vain." - Tsun

Why is it Ulfrics job to ask his king to support his country for independence? Torygg knew Ulfrics intentions yet never did a damn thing about it. Instead of Ulfric going to Torygg... why didn't Torygg go to Ulfric to discuss Skyrims independence, and if Ulfric is willing to lead his military as his new General?

Yes I do speak little about Kodlak whenever his name is brought up because he doesn't truly deserve to be highly respected, not while he (The Harbinger) allows his subordinates (His circle members) continue to purposely spread this so-called lycanthropy curse onto new members of the circle. Calling him a true nord is laughable.

The comments from Tsun and Ysgramor furthur proves that they do not see what goes on in the world of the living. Had they did they would not had spoken so positively towards Kodlak... especially Ysgramor considering the fact that Kodlak is allowing his unruly circle members to drive away any new members from going to Sovngarde instead feeding their souls to the Daedric Princes Hircine for his hunting grounds.It's nothing but a catastrophic hazing technique that rips away the right of someone to enter Sovngarde just to become a member of the circle, and Kodlak is allowing this to happen.

Kodlak is one of the most egotistical bastards in Skyrim. He shows little to no concern for others but himself. He desires to go to Sovngarde, and so He orders the player to slaughter 4 hagravens so that HE can be cured from the werewolf disease. Their were no talks about the total elimination of the blood beast. It was all him and him only.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And why is that? Why would it make a General bad for having a berserker like mentality during an act of war?

Isn't it obvious? A berserker would merely attack the enemy, without any regard for his soldier's lives or tactics. Though perhaps you should ask the dozens of Nordic Jarls who died foolishly attacking an Orc Stronghold in some berserker head-on fashion.

How do you think the Imperials kept coming out on top? Even though they are less imposing than the other races, smaller, their weaponry and equipment wasn't even that great to start off with.

Training, tactics, structuring their armies into the Legion based system. Tiber Septim wasn't a berserker and he conquered all of Tamriel.

General Trollius is a very well trained General, but Ill-Prepared for Battle

How so? He captured Ulfric fairly quickly, he storms Windhelm, and he still defends Rikke when attacked. Though he isn't nearly as young as Ulfric Stormcloak.

which in returns makes him a bad General.

Being good at fighting =/= good at War. Queen Potema wasn't great at combat personally, yet she brought the Empire to it's knees.

Fighting and planning are two different things.

When things don't go exactly his way he breaks down and gives up. You can't dyne this because it's right there in the game.

Yet when a Dragon appears and is slaughtering his men, Ulfric is escaping and things aren't going exactly his way... He's in his element. His first reaction is to order his men to get the towns people to safety, then he forms up a defense and makes sure his men are heading for the keep before he goes in.

He gives up and is prepared to surrender when you've captured the city, overrun every defense, wiped out all the Legionaries and guards protecting the city. What is he meant to do? Just charge out hacking and slashing at you?

He doesn't want to die, but he is prepared to die if needed. He's in Skyrim doing his job, Ulfric cares for better songs.

Like I said above General Trollius is a very skilled as hes very well trained.... however he is a poor choice for war-like situations.

Considering he nearly won the "war"?

He simply cannot deal with the stress that comes with the job. When things don't go his way he breaks down.

No he doesn't. He doesn't break down in the slightest. He simply sees no way of victory, and just running out and killing anyone he can take down with him is just stupidity. He's a General and he would need to seek terms of surrender for any of his men remaining.

I already gave you my point. Just because he was programmed to rise up to defend Rikke doesn't excuse the fact that he gave up.

Giving up the war =/= giving up cause he's broken and sad.

He sees no way to victory, so giving up is normal. No point in simply dying for the sake of dying.

The Nords at Sancre Tor gave up when General Talos kicked their ass. Ulfric gave up when the Legion ambushed him.

Trollius is not a politician, Ulfric is. That's the difference between the two.

He is a politician of sorts, he's the Military Governor of Skyrim. Tullius mentions constantly about dealing with other politicians too.

Yet Trollius did nothing to stop it. He kept on feeding the thalmor by wasting much resources fighting this useless war.

Are you pretending to be this thick? He doesn't know the Thalmor want neither side to win. He believes the Thalmor are behind the Civil War and the Stormcloaks are a threat to the Empire.

Ulfric does nothing to stop his war either, and before you go on about "Well Tullius never told him the Thalmor were behind it" is Ulfric three? Is he inept? Perhaps.

It is a useless war, a war Ulfric started because he wanted to be High King.

I'm sure that Elisif is still against him in private, but she should accept this considering the fact that she was willing to let the Empire control everyone religious freedom in Skyrim.

It is the Thalmor forcing it, not the Empire.
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Isn't it obvious? A berserker would merely attack the enemy, without any regard for his soldier's lives or tactics. Though perhaps you should ask the dozens of Nordic Jarls who died foolishly attacking an Orc Stronghold in some berserker head-on fashion.

How do you think the Imperials kept coming out on top? Even though they are less imposing than the other races, smaller, their weaponry and equipment wasn't even that great to start off with.

Training, tactics, structuring their armies into the Legion based system. Tiber Septim wasn't a berserker and he conquered all of Tamriel.

Funny that you say this because that is exactly what Trollius is doing by your own definition of a berserker.

Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

He blames the Thalmor for the actions that he took. He blames them for forcing him to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion.

How so? He captured Ulfric fairly quickly, he storms Windhelm, and he still defends Rikke when attacked. Though he isn't nearly as young as Ulfric Stormcloak.

Congratulations Trollius captured Ulfric fairly early in the game....
pat.gif
still doesn't make up the fact that when the pressure is high, and that things don't go his way.... he cracks up and gives up. It's simple as that.

Being good at fighting =/= good at War. Queen Potema wasn't great at combat personally, yet she brought the Empire to it's knees.

Fighting and planning are two different things.

What are you talking about?

When Uriel III fought his uncle Cephorus in Hammerfell at the Battle of Ichidag in 3E 127, Potema was fighting her other brother, Uriel's uncle Magnus in Skyrim at the Battle of Falconstar. She received word of her son's defeat and capture just as she was preparing to mount an attack on Magnus's weakest flank. The sixty-one-year-old Wolf Queen flew into a rage and led the assault herself. It was a success, and Magnus and his army fled. In the midst the victory celebration, Potema heard the news that her son the Emperor had been killed by an angry mob before he had even made it for trial in the Imperial City. He had been burned to death within his carriage.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Biography_of_the_Wolf_Queen

This proves that she was indeed great at combat as she personally led the assault, and was successful at doing it too.

Yet when a Dragon appears and is slaughtering his men, Ulfric is escaping and things aren't going exactly his way... He's in his element. His first reaction is to order his men to get the towns people to safety, then he forms up a defense and makes sure his men are heading for the keep before he goes in.

He gives up and is prepared to surrender when you've captured the city, overrun every defense, wiped out all the Legionaries and guards protecting the city. What is he meant to do? Just charge out hacking and slashing at you?

He doesn't want to die, but he is prepared to die if needed. He's in Skyrim doing his job, Ulfric cares for better songs.

You're not going to give up about the song issue are you? It really bothers you that the politician Ulfric cares for the reputation that he worked so hard to achieve. That he wants to be remembered as a true Nordic warrior who had the guts to fight for Skyrim's independence while half of the Jarls who was bride with gold kiss the weaken Empires ass... the very Empire that outlaw ban of Talos forced upon by the Thalmor through the WGC. The same genocidal military organization whose intentions are quite clear...

IUnv3hv.png


This is what Ulfric is fighting against.... yet the Empire wants to piss away their troops fighting against the very same man that wants to be free from the Thalmor.

No he doesn't. He doesn't break down in the slightest. He simply sees no way of victory, and just running out and killing anyone he can take down with him is just stupidity. He's a General and he would need to seek terms of surrender for any of his men remaining.

Bro are you blind or something? He did broke down.... he broke down A LOT to the point where his own Legate admits to. How can you just sit there and say otherwise when it's right there. Open your eyes.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Funny that you say this because that is exactly what Trollius is doing by your own definition of a berserker.

Not even in the slightest.

He blames the Thalmor for the actions that he took. He blames them for forcing him to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion.

The more you use that quote, the more obvious it becomes you don't understand it. He blames the Thalmor for the rebellion, that they were behind it.

Ulfric is the idiot who can't even see the Thalmor benefit, too swept up in his ego. Tullius believes the rebellion is the Thalmor's doing, and yes the Empire is forced to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers ending it. They're trying to keep the Empire together.


Congratulations Trollius captured Ulfric fairly early in the game....

Without the Dragonborn, and he will do so again in time.

still doesn't make up the fact that when the pressure is high, and that things don't go his way.... he cracks up and gives up. It's simple as that.

... You really have no understanding. He doesn't crack and break down, he can handle pressure. Look at Helgen, perfect example of him keeping it together. He gives up the war when his forces have been defeated and his castle overrun.

What are you talking about?

This proves that she was indeed great at combat as she personally led the assault, and was successful at doing it too.

She led the assault, leading an army doesn't mean you're great at combat. It is saying she took charge, she was a great strategist.

Every Emperor and Empress lead armies, doesn't make them great at combat personally.

You're not going to give up about the song issue are you?

You're not going to give up about Tullius' supposed break down, when you don't grasp the difference between giving up cause you're depressed and broken and giving up fighting because you've been defeated.

It really bothers you that the politician Ulfric cares for the reputation that he worked so hard to achieve.

Seeking personal glory is what gets men you command killed. It should bother you, his soldiers fight with mismatched equipment and yet he has the nerve to get his blacksmith to create an ancient royal blade copy of some past Queen of Windhelm?

That he wants to be remembered as a true Nordic warrior who had the guts to fight for Skyrim's independence

And what about all the men and women who died for his uprising? For his taking the throne? He wants to use the Dragonborn in his speech like a political tool to add validation to his cause. At least Tullius treats his men equally, and doubles the compensation to his fallen men's families.

while half of the Jarls who was bride with gold kiss the weaken Empires ass... the very Empire that outlaw ban of Talos forced upon by the Thalmor through the WGC. The same genocidal military organization whose intentions are quite clear...

The Empire are not the enemy, the Thalmor are the enemy. The Empire did not want to ban Talos, it was forced and it was temporary. Tell me, where was this rebellion twenty years ago? Ten years ago? Why didn't the great Ulfric Stormcloak challenge the respected Istlod? He had to wait until his son took the throne, because he is a coward.

It isn't honor when you fight a man you know you can defeat easily, but using the Thu'um to aid him? That isn't honorable combat, that was simply slaughter.

"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"

Who gives a plops what the Thalmor tell you, "Oh look they're targeting Nords, they're going to take out the nords derp!" They can't even reach you with their fl*ffing army, and the Justiciars are spread thin so it isn't like they're mass killing thousands of Nords from their single embassy.

This is what Ulfric is fighting against.... yet the Empire wants to piss away their troops fighting against the very same man that wants to be free from the Thalmor.

Ulfric cares about Ulfric, his own supporters can see that. The Empire wants to throw away soldiers? No. He forced the Empire's hand when he killed Torygg and started a war against the Western Holds. The Empire trying to keep itself from falling apart is normal, and I would be against the Empire if it abandoned the Jarls who supported them.

Bro are you blind or something? He did broke down.... he broke down A LOT to the point where his own Legate admits to. How can you just sit there and say otherwise when it's right there. Open your eyes.

Are you blind? You lack the comprehension to understand it. He didn't break down, his Legate doesn't say he broke down. Tullius gave up the war, he was defeated. Nothing more, nothing less. Legate Rikke is talking about continuing the fight. http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1435

When you wipe out most of his forces, overrun his stronghold and are kicking down the door.... He doesn't have any options besides surrender, or going out in some blaze of glory.

Open your eyes, this debate is tiresome.

Giving up the war because you're defeated =/= Giving up cause you've cracked, broken down, become all loopy.
 
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General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Hmm. I found something interesting retaining to dialouge. I was playing around and talking to people when I found this...

Asgeir Snow-Shod: My father was a Stormcloak soldier in his younger days. Now he just walks the streets spewing his hatred and propaganda. My mother is the Priestess of Talos. She tends to the shrine and teaches his ways. I'm just not so sure she's delivering the right message. Don't mistake my political beliefs as a substitute for my family values. They're still my parents, and I love them dearly. I just think they've let my sister's death skew their outlook on Ulfric and what he really brings to the table with this war. I'm not so certain that Ulfric's intentions are as noble as they think. I think Ulfric cares about Ulfric and the rest is a smokescreen. I'd...I'd appreciate it if you kept my opinion between us. The last thing I want to do is have my parents "lose" another child."

What does he mean by that last part?
 
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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
@Raijin and @DrunkenMage - you two are acting like an old married couple now. I am beginning to wonder why I keep coming to this thread.

It's a good marriage though. When a couple starts acting like this they won't divorce anytime soon.

Hmm. I found something interesting retaining to dialouge. I was playing around and talking to people when I found this...
Asgeir Snow-Shod: My father was a Stormcloak soldier in his younger days. Now he just walks the streets spewing his hatred and propaganda. My mother is the Priestess of Talos. She tends to the shrine and teaches his ways. I'm just not so sure she's delivering the right message. Don't mistake my political beliefs as a substitute for my family values. They're still my parents, and I love them dearly. I just think they've let my sister's death skew their outlook on Ulfric and what he really brings to the table with this war. I'm not so certain that Ulfric's intentions are as noble as they think. I think Ulfric cares about Ulfric and the rest is a smokescreen. I'd...I'd appreciate it if you kept my opinion between us. The last thing I want to do is have my parents "lose" another child."

What does he mean by that last part?

That question is answered by other dialogue;

Nura: "You need to be easier on Asgeir. All he wants to do is please you."
Vulwulf: "It would please me if he'd take up arms and fight for to save his homeland. Is that too much to ask my own son?"
Nura: "That's right. He is your son. He has his own hopes and dreams and we have no right to tell him otherwise."
Vulwulf: "You can't deny the fact that he needs to give back to his people; to fight to keep us free. You healed the wounded, Nura. You saw their life's blood spilling into the mud, giving back to the land. No. I'm sorry, I've worked too damn hard to let his life go to waste."

His father is so caught up in his "Skyrim for the Nords!" belief that he demands no less from his own son. If he found out Asgeir's believes were going against Ulfric directly, and not just "I just work with the Empire, I'm not pro-Imperials" as he pretends in different dialogue, lookie here:

Nura: "How are things at the Meadery, my dear?"
Vulwulf: "Not this again..."
Nura: "Hush, Vulwulf... let the boy speak."
Asgeir: "It's going very well, actually. The war hasn't even slowed down our production or shipping at all."
Vulwulf: "Of course it is. That's what happens when you're partners with a corrupt Imperial whore like Maven."
Nura: "Vulwulf! The Empire may be our enemy, but Asgeir is still our son and we're a long way from Cyrodiil."
Asgeir: "Father, I promise you, this has nothing to do with Empires or politics. It's just business."
Vulwulf: "It has everything to do with politics. Asgeir my son, you have so much to learn."

...he'd most likely kick out his own son.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
@Raijin and @DrunkenMage - you two are acting like an old married couple now. I am beginning to wonder why I keep coming to this thread.

It's a good marriage though. When a couple starts acting like this they won't divorce anytime soon.

Hmm. I found something interesting retaining to dialouge. I was playing around and talking to people when I found this...
Asgeir Snow-Shod: My father was a Stormcloak soldier in his younger days. Now he just walks the streets spewing his hatred and propaganda. My mother is the Priestess of Talos. She tends to the shrine and teaches his ways. I'm just not so sure she's delivering the right message. Don't mistake my political beliefs as a substitute for my family values. They're still my parents, and I love them dearly. I just think they've let my sister's death skew their outlook on Ulfric and what he really brings to the table with this war. I'm not so certain that Ulfric's intentions are as noble as they think. I think Ulfric cares about Ulfric and the rest is a smokescreen. I'd...I'd appreciate it if you kept my opinion between us. The last thing I want to do is have my parents "lose" another child."

What does he mean by that last part?

That question is answered by other dialogue;

Nura: "You need to be easier on Asgeir. All he wants to do is please you."
Vulwulf: "It would please me if he'd take up arms and fight for to save his homeland. Is that too much to ask my own son?"
Nura: "That's right. He is your son. He has his own hopes and dreams and we have no right to tell him otherwise."
Vulwulf: "You can't deny the fact that he needs to give back to his people; to fight to keep us free. You healed the wounded, Nura. You saw their life's blood spilling into the mud, giving back to the land. No. I'm sorry, I've worked too damn hard to let his life go to waste."

His father is so caught up in his "Skyrim for the Nords!" belief that he demands no less from his own son. If he found out Asgeir's believes were going against Ulfric directly, and not just "I just work with the Empire, I'm not pro-Imperials" as he pretends in different dialogue, lookie here:

Nura: "How are things at the Meadery, my dear?"
Vulwulf: "Not this again..."
Nura: "Hush, Vulwulf... let the boy speak."
Asgeir: "It's going very well, actually. The war hasn't even slowed down our production or shipping at all."
Vulwulf: "Of course it is. That's what happens when you're partners with a corrupt Imperial whore like Maven."
Nura: "Vulwulf! The Empire may be our enemy, but Asgeir is still our son and we're a long way from Cyrodiil."
Asgeir: "Father, I promise you, this has nothing to do with Empires or politics. It's just business."
Vulwulf: "It has everything to do with politics. Asgeir my son, you have so much to learn."

...he'd most likely kick out his own son.
Thank you for the reply. I actually didn't know all of that extra dialogue. :)
 

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