Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
To anyone that I am debating with (DrunkenMage) I've changed my opinion regarding to the Empire not enforcing the ban of Talos to strictly enforcing it.

I was reading some dialogue from a NPC, and realize that I was wrong.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00041e1a

They enforce it now, but nothing on the levels of what the Thalmor are doing during the civil war.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down."

If you're open about Talos, they will stop it. Like Heimskr going to prison.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
I'm just saying it's highly unlikely for all of Ulfric's actions to be motivated by a desire to be a martyr. Come on Mage, that "I fight because I must" didn't get to you at all?

No, I don't mean to say all his actions are motivated by that. He does believe in what he is doing, but many of his actions are done for image. Even Galmar gets sick of it at the end of the questline at Castle Dour, when he suggests that you be the one to kill Tullius it he's 'robbing the moment by giving it to the "real" hero'.

To execute every Stormcloak would be to decimate the Eastern Holds population, and take away at least a few legionaires for the next war. You couldn't execute that many people without causing another revolt in the Old Holds.

If they were to renounce the Stormcloaks, it is possible they wouldn't kill them. Laying down their weapons and returning to the fold. The Eastern Holds population would already be slightly decimated after the end of Imperial Victory, given you cut through majority of the Stormcloaks.

They wouldn't just keep them prisoner forever, chances are they'll probably die anyway in jail. Prisons in Tamriel aren't that good and many die in the cells. (Some bodies are still even left in them!). I think being executed would be better than dying in a dark cell from poor health or freezing to death.

Ulfric still has a chance, however slim, of speaking out to the Empire and pointing out the current state of Skyrim. He also, as far as he knows, is saving his men.

They knew they were dead even before they reached Helgen.

Lokir: "Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. But if they've captured you... Oh gods, where are they taking us?"
Ralof: "I don't know where we're going, but Sovngarde awaits."

Ralof: "A Nord's last thoughts should be of home."

Keep in mind as far as revolutions go the Stormcloaks are pretty damn mild. It still is a revolution though, things will get a little extreme, and racial issues will settle down if the Stormcloaks win.

These racial issues are normal, it is the Old Holds. They've always been for Skyrim for the Nords.

Ulfric isn't one to make unnecessary enemies, but right now he doesn't have the time, resources or support to do anything about Windhelm. This is evident when Brunwulf gets up there and he's in the same situation.

Except that the Windhelm issues started when Ulfric became Jarl, years before the rebellion went into full swing. He did nothing when he had the resources, so I doubt he'll do anything when he has them again. It is mentioned his father and his father and so on were better to them.

Ulfric is content to ignore them. Even still, the Dunmer of Windhelm weren't after change right away. They mention that real change takes time, but Brunwulf at least spoke with them and discussed plans.

Ulfric is indeed fighting a rebellion, but he does have Generals. He also has a steward he could use to speak with them about it, they're supposed to run the daily duties of the Hold. Ulfric is focused on Nords, he's a Jarl of the Old Hold. I wouldn't expect anything different, they do not care for non-Nords.

The Old Holds would also end up being influenced by the West, because it's simply unavoidable from how much money they bring in. So after things cool down I'm confident you'll see a more balanced Skyrim.

The Eastern Holds aren't poor. Dawnstar is known for it's rich mines, and it is a port city, Windhelm also has a port and two trading companies stationed there. Riften has hunting for pelts which fetch good prices, and farming thrives in the Rift.

Winterhold I'll grant you is pl*** poor, but they did rival Solitude before the Great Collapse.

I really think this is Skyrim's one shot at independence. An Imperial victory just kills all nationalism.

Nords bounce back. Skyrim is quite independent, the Holds are independent of each other, and very rarely does the Empire get involved in Skyrim. You can't kill their nationalism, they're a stubborn lot.

Stormcloaks are really a short term solution in the long run, same with the Empire. The Nords have to choose to unite together, conquering one side of Skyrim or the other only keeps them united for a time.


Hammerfell and Cyrodiil were in very similar situations when they signed their treaties. Both devasted, but were facing a devasted army. Cyrodiil essentially fought and won their own resistance when they took back the Imperial City. But the treaties were so drastically different.

The Empire could not continue. The Legions did most of the work, the Redguards didn't do too much until the end. The Empire taking back the Imperial City was hard, very hard. It was a large scale battle against a main army. They weren't doing hit and run, and making Aldmeri rule hell.

Treaties are different because the Empire signed it five years earlier. They couldn't continue the war, the Dominion could. The Redguards fought the Dominion in their lands until they reached a standstill and the Dominion left to recover. By that time the Legions were struggling to bring order back to their lands with all the bandits, gangs, and other groups taking advantage of the lack of Imperial authority.

The Empire could barely maintain order in the peaceful years that followed. Had they continued the war, I doubt they would have ever been able to get order back under control. While the Dominion would just be regaining strength, the Empire would be falling apart due to lack of order.

Kind of what Skyrim is having without the Stormcloaks and Legion fighting. Where you have bandits raiding, rogue wizards doing pl*** and dangerous creatures getting out of hand.

I think when he says "where's your sense of the dramatic moment" he's sort of making fun of himself and the Stormcloaks, and Galmar's like "haha, very funny." It gets over the top at times but the Nordic image thing is politically genius.

This ties into Imperial victory killing Nord nationalism. Either you have a bunch of stubborn Nords you're now executing or imprisoning or you're forcing them to renounce what they believe in.

I think Ralof figured it out when they started heading for Helgen. If they were caught at Darkwater Crossing they would've entered Cyrodiil through the passage in the Rift.

See this where I think Stormcloak critics get a little unreasonable. The Old Holds don't want to change but things keep getting forced on to them. Refugees, the Concordat, justiciars, etc.

The moment Ulfric became jarl he probably started making preparations for war, he founded his army, spread propaganda, stockpiled food and weapons and eventually had skirmishes near Windhelm break out. The Dunmer werent relocated to the Grey Quarter were they? Ulfric didn't start ordering Rolff to go on his drunken rants. Exactly, real change takes time, and we never see Ulfric without the war. I'm sure he wants to make an ally out of the Dunmer if he can, or at least keep them happy enough he doesn't have a revolt on his hands.

Even with his steward, they don't have the resources to improve anything. And aren't the buildings privately owned anyways...?

Yeah but the west has Solitude, Whiterun and Markarth, and with Riften falling on hard times, you'll see some western influence for sure in the years to come.

If Skyrim was a little independent, probably not anymore.
"The Legion will be staying here for quite some time"
Though I'm not sure how the Legion is going to be enforcing this if the Dominion comes calling.

The Redguards fought the war for 10 years on their own land, I can't see them being in a better position than the Empire when the concordat was signed.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
But he still listens to Galmar.

A man who saw his friends die far from home, lived through Thalmor torture, believes he was responsible for letting the Imperial City fall. He's had it too rough for him to only be chasing a good song.

You sure you support the Stormcloaks? If so, then you need to learn more about the Nords. Ulfric is a Nord, and a warrior at that. It makes sense that he would be seeking a good song, to redeem himself of his capture in the Great War. Song, Glory and Honor, these are the key parts of Nordic Culture.

I didn't say he's not seeking glory, but I think he is mostly driven by a desire to look out for his people.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I think when he says "where's your sense of the dramatic moment" he's sort of making fun of himself and the Stormcloaks, and Galmar's like "haha, very funny." It gets over the top at times but the Nordic image thing is politically genius.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e0e

This ties into Imperial victory killing Nord nationalism. Either you have a bunch of stubborn Nords you're now executing or imprisoning or you're forcing them to renounce what they believe in.

The worship of Talos will finally be stamped out. Or so they think. Those true sons and daughters of Skyrim will never cease to worship mighty Talos. If we cannot do so in our temples, we will do so in our hearts.

They won't give up and when the next war starts and the Concordat is thrown out the window, they will lose whatever hatred they have for the Empire and refocus on the Aldmeri Dominion.

I think Ralof figured it out when they started heading for Helgen. If they were caught at Darkwater Crossing they would've entered Cyrodiil through the passage in the Rift.

That would be very stupid. Slow moving prison transport crossing heavy Stormcloak controlled area and waltz down the road past a capital filled with a garrison?

Ralof wouldn't know what they were doing, not even Hadvar figured out what they were up to until they reached Helgen. Tullius seemed to change his mind spur of the moment, which I suspect was due to the Thalmor. They did show up at Helgen before Tullius himself had and were demanding the prisoners be transferred into their hands.

See this where I think Stormcloak critics get a little unreasonable. The Old Holds don't want to change but things keep getting forced on to them. Refugees, the Concordat, justiciars, etc.

It doesn't matter, they prefer isolation, they put Nords first above everyone else. They're not bad people, just they're the diehards of Skyrim. Much like Colovia are the diehards of the Empire, yet neither are fit to rule.

Colovia and Eastern Skyrim share very much in common. Religious, war-like, and they distrust outsiders. They don't respect you until you've proven yourself. They hold to traditions of their forefathers, slow to change.

The moment Ulfric became jarl he probably started making preparations for war, he founded his army, spread propaganda, stockpiled food and weapons and eventually had skirmishes near Windhelm break out. The Dunmer werent relocated to the Grey Quarter were they? Ulfric didn't start ordering Rolff to go on his drunken rants. Exactly, real change takes time, and we never see Ulfric without the war. I'm sure he wants to make an ally out of the Dunmer if he can, or at least keep them happy enough he doesn't have a revolt on his hands.

Except that isn't what we see, and it isn't what his supporters see. There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.

Ulfric has a duty still to those in his city. He banished the Argonians, and there isn't a reason why, except what Brunwulf tells us which is there are Nords who still believe as Ulfric does.

"Can't see why we let them dark elves live inside the walls. We should kick 'em out like we did to the scalebacks."

Rolff is the brother of Ulfric's second in command, the second highest ranking member of the Stormcloaks. Even if Ulfric doesn't order him, he's out there giving Stormcloaks a bad name and Ulfric doesn't bring him to heel.

Don't think of Rolff as a loner, he represents a population of Nords who hate the Dark Elves and give them hell.

Ulfric will face revolt while he continues to ignore them, because his own supporters see it as he hates them. They feed off of it, Ulfric's inactions allows a racist social structure to happen in his city.

Even with his steward, they don't have the resources to improve anything. And aren't the buildings privately owned anyways...?

They don't need the resources now. They just want the issue addressed and discussed. Is it so hard to just acknowledge them? Ignoring them doesn't help the matter, it is stupidity. He has to start treating non-Nords as fairly he treats Nords if he even hopes to be a good High King.

Only the rich would most likely be able to afford a home privately. Most things would be considered "Jarl's holdings". The Dunmer aren't on about inside the homes, they're talking about the streets and outside. Most of the buildings in the Gray Quarter are stone work if I remember correctly, attached to the wall. The mention of cramped alleys would mean zoning and clearing of rubble.

You need special permissions to do things, even hunting.

Yeah but the west has Solitude, Whiterun and Markarth, and with Riften falling on hard times, you'll see some western influence for sure in the years to come.

Solitude does well, but it was the capital of Skyrim for hundreds of years. Empire would have flooded it with commerce, traders from all over would most likely want to sell in the capital, and other businesses would be higher class due to foreign nobles and dignitaries on visits to the city.

Had Windhelm been the seat of the royal line, it would be very rich too. Whiterun isn't a Western Hold, it is smack in the middle of East and West and serves as the trade hub of the entire province. Markarth is indeed rich, but that provides wealth for Skyrim.

Eastmarch isn't poor by any means, they have two big trading companies located there. Though if they strike a deal with the Orcs, they would be able to buy off ebony. Make them a big deal to the Empire, since it pays a lot for it.

If Skyrim was a little independent, probably not anymore.
"The Legion will be staying here for quite some time"
Though I'm not sure how the Legion is going to be enforcing this if the Dominion comes calling.

It doesn't matter how many times the Empire brings the hammer down on them when they rebel. You can't kill the Nordic spirit, even when they're part of the Empire they're still proud independent people.

Tullius isn't just blindly doing things the "Imperial way", he has to adapt and he has Legate Rikke by his side to aid him in that.

"The General's put me in charge of assisting the new governments. I may understand things here in Skyrim better than the General, but I'm a soldier at heart, not a politician. But I'll do my best. This is the land of my birth, the land that shaped me. I'm proud to have any part in making it strong again."

Legate Rikke also becomes the de faco ruler of Eastern Skyrim. So unless you think she is bad, the Nords won't have too many issues with her rule.

"No, I suspect Skyrim to be my home for many years. Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

Even Tullius grows to respect the Nords.

So the Nords will be okay, they're not under the rule of someone who just hates them and seeks to oppress at any given chance. Rikke is a good woman, and treats all fairly. Even Winterhold is hopeful to rebuild with the Empire's help, and repair Nord relations with the College.

Tullius isn't that bad, he does care for the citizens and he hates the Thalmor so much he almost considered joining the Stormcloaks. He won't help them with their Talos hunting.

He also willing to free prisoners from the Thalmor (On PC though, since the quest to free the Grey-Mane is glitched).

The Redguards fought the war for 10 years on their own land, I can't see them being in a better position than the Empire when the concordat was signed.

Doesn't matter, the Empire would not have lasted ten years. They were hit hardest, the Aldmeri Dominion wasn't trying to simply occupy southern parts. They sought the complete destruction of the Empire.

A small part of Hammerfell being occupied, and the Imperial Legions doing most of the heavy fighting doesn't mean the Redguards had it like the Empire did. Only the southern areas of Hammerfell were devastated, so I'd say from Sentinel and Gilane down.

All of Cyrodiil was just about conquered with the exception of the snowy northern areas. Where the Imperial Army had to winter up after the Aldmeri had destroyed the Legion Supply Depots.

"It got bad back in Cyrodiil. The war with the Thalmor ruined... everything."
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Even though Skyrim is a fictional game, I've been in the same the boat the Empire is in now.

We can simmer all day and night, weeks, months, years, over who is right and wrong... but in the end... it doesn't matter.

I can tell you this though... the people throwing insults, working behind the scenes to make things worse by inflaming the tension, the Religious crowd throwing stones, the citizens giving up, the profiteering by the opportunists, none of these types of people help.

None of them, I don't care what your intentions are, are doing what they do for any other reason than being in it for themselves.

And these kinds of 'thugs' wish to destroy your joy and happiness, your prosperity. These types of people never build anything unless it's to harm someone else.
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
I think when he says "where's your sense of the dramatic moment" he's sort of making fun of himself and the Stormcloaks, and Galmar's like "haha, very funny." It gets over the top at times but the Nordic image thing is politically genius.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e0e

This ties into Imperial victory killing Nord nationalism. Either you have a bunch of stubborn Nords you're now executing or imprisoning or you're forcing them to renounce what they believe in.

The worship of Talos will finally be stamped out. Or so they think. Those true sons and daughters of Skyrim will never cease to worship mighty Talos. If we cannot do so in our temples, we will do so in our hearts.

They won't give up and when the next war starts and the Concordat is thrown out the window, they will lose whatever hatred they have for the Empire and refocus on the Aldmeri Dominion.

I think Ralof figured it out when they started heading for Helgen. If they were caught at Darkwater Crossing they would've entered Cyrodiil through the passage in the Rift.

That would be very stupid. Slow moving prison transport crossing heavy Stormcloak controlled area and waltz down the road past a capital filled with a garrison?

Ralof wouldn't know what they were doing, not even Hadvar figured out what they were up to until they reached Helgen. Tullius seemed to change his mind spur of the moment, which I suspect was due to the Thalmor. They did show up at Helgen before Tullius himself had and were demanding the prisoners be transferred into their hands.

See this where I think Stormcloak critics get a little unreasonable. The Old Holds don't want to change but things keep getting forced on to them. Refugees, the Concordat, justiciars, etc.

It doesn't matter, they prefer isolation, they put Nords first above everyone else. They're not bad people, just they're the diehards of Skyrim. Much like Colovia are the diehards of the Empire, yet neither are fit to rule.

Colovia and Eastern Skyrim share very much in common. Religious, war-like, and they distrust outsiders. They don't respect you until you've proven yourself. They hold to traditions of their forefathers, slow to change.

The moment Ulfric became jarl he probably started making preparations for war, he founded his army, spread propaganda, stockpiled food and weapons and eventually had skirmishes near Windhelm break out. The Dunmer werent relocated to the Grey Quarter were they? Ulfric didn't start ordering Rolff to go on his drunken rants. Exactly, real change takes time, and we never see Ulfric without the war. I'm sure he wants to make an ally out of the Dunmer if he can, or at least keep them happy enough he doesn't have a revolt on his hands.

Except that isn't what we see, and it isn't what his supporters see. There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.

Ulfric has a duty still to those in his city. He banished the Argonians, and there isn't a reason why, except what Brunwulf tells us which is there are Nords who still believe as Ulfric does.

"Can't see why we let them dark elves live inside the walls. We should kick 'em out like we did to the scalebacks."

Rolff is the brother of Ulfric's second in command, the second highest ranking member of the Stormcloaks. Even if Ulfric doesn't order him, he's out there giving Stormcloaks a bad name and Ulfric doesn't bring him to heel.

Don't think of Rolff as a loner, he represents a population of Nords who hate the Dark Elves and give them hell.

Ulfric will face revolt while he continues to ignore them, because his own supporters see it as he hates them. They feed off of it, Ulfric's inactions allows a racist social structure to happen in his city.

Even with his steward, they don't have the resources to improve anything. And aren't the buildings privately owned anyways...?

They don't need the resources now. They just want the issue addressed and discussed. Is it so hard to just acknowledge them? Ignoring them doesn't help the matter, it is stupidity. He has to start treating non-Nords as fairly he treats Nords if he even hopes to be a good High King.

Only the rich would most likely be able to afford a home privately. Most things would be considered "Jarl's holdings". The Dunmer aren't on about inside the homes, they're talking about the streets and outside. Most of the buildings in the Gray Quarter are stone work if I remember correctly, attached to the wall. The mention of cramped alleys would mean zoning and clearing of rubble.

You need special permissions to do things, even hunting.

Yeah but the west has Solitude, Whiterun and Markarth, and with Riften falling on hard times, you'll see some western influence for sure in the years to come.

Solitude does well, but it was the capital of Skyrim for hundreds of years. Empire would have flooded it with commerce, traders from all over would most likely want to sell in the capital, and other businesses would be higher class due to foreign nobles and dignitaries on visits to the city.

Had Windhelm been the seat of the royal line, it would be very rich too. Whiterun isn't a Western Hold, it is smack in the middle of East and West and serves as the trade hub of the entire province. Markarth is indeed rich, but that provides wealth for Skyrim.

Eastmarch isn't poor by any means, they have two big trading companies located there. Though if they strike a deal with the Orcs, they would be able to buy off ebony. Make them a big deal to the Empire, since it pays a lot for it.

If Skyrim was a little independent, probably not anymore.
"The Legion will be staying here for quite some time"
Though I'm not sure how the Legion is going to be enforcing this if the Dominion comes calling.

It doesn't matter how many times the Empire brings the hammer down on them when they rebel. You can't kill the Nordic spirit, even when they're part of the Empire they're still proud independent people.

Tullius isn't just blindly doing things the "Imperial way", he has to adapt and he has Legate Rikke by his side to aid him in that.

"The General's put me in charge of assisting the new governments. I may understand things here in Skyrim better than the General, but I'm a soldier at heart, not a politician. But I'll do my best. This is the land of my birth, the land that shaped me. I'm proud to have any part in making it strong again."

Legate Rikke also becomes the de faco ruler of Eastern Skyrim. So unless you think she is bad, the Nords won't have too many issues with her rule.

"No, I suspect Skyrim to be my home for many years. Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

Even Tullius grows to respect the Nords.

So the Nords will be okay, they're not under the rule of someone who just hates them and seeks to oppress at any given chance. Rikke is a good woman, and treats all fairly. Even Winterhold is hopeful to rebuild with the Empire's help, and repair Nord relations with the College.

Tullius isn't that bad, he does care for the citizens and he hates the Thalmor so much he almost considered joining the Stormcloaks. He won't help them with their Talos hunting.

He also willing to free prisoners from the Thalmor (On PC though, since the quest to free the Grey-Mane is glitched).

The Redguards fought the war for 10 years on their own land, I can't see them being in a better position than the Empire when the concordat was signed.

Doesn't matter, the Empire would not have lasted ten years. They were hit hardest, the Aldmeri Dominion wasn't trying to simply occupy southern parts. They sought the complete destruction of the Empire.

A small part of Hammerfell being occupied, and the Imperial Legions doing most of the heavy fighting doesn't mean the Redguards had it like the Empire did. Only the southern areas of Hammerfell were devastated, so I'd say from Sentinel and Gilane down.

All of Cyrodiil was just about conquered with the exception of the snowy northern areas. Where the Imperial Army had to winter up after the Aldmeri had destroyed the Legion Supply Depots.

"It got bad back in Cyrodiil. The war with the Thalmor ruined... everything."

That's still speculation though. You can interpret that quote a million ways and I think all of us are really over-analyzing it.

But do you understand how humiliating this loss would be? Everything you believe to be what your homeland is all about has just been crushed by this foriegn empire. If the Stormcloaks lose, Skyrim will be way more of a subject to the Empire in the years to come, you have to think they'll be punished for this rebellion.

If you look at where Darkwater is, it wouldn't take that long to get to the border, and the Stormcloaks could have camps all along the road to Helgen, and you're still passing through Stormcloak territory no matter what.

So you agree with me here? The Old Holds just want things to stay the way they are, and continue living as they have for generations. When all these things (concordat, justiciars, a race you've never seen eye to with sending loads of refugees your way) are forced upon them of course they're going to push back a little.

Do you honestly think Ulfric is dumb enough to push the Dunmer to the point of revolt?

What I'm saying here is that the west (I'm including Whiterun based on they aren't as conservative as the East) will end up influencing the east because right now they are the wealthier half, which may lead to more tolerable Nords in Windhelm/a new place offered to them all together among bringing in other positive aspects from the Imperial days.

I'm not saying by any means Imperial rule would lead to a lower quality of life for Nords but you will see Imperial customs become more and more prevalent over Nordic ones.

The Redguard army that repelled the Dominion wasn't sitting around the previous five years, not to mention they were already weakens from waging a small-scale civil war among the Crowns and Forebears. I'd imagine their trade was hurting from their Southern coast being unavailable, and they were operating under a government that had only just been established.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Of course... then again... the Empire has responsibilities too.

If it's either lost the will to Govern or simply can't Govern it's Regions anymore then the only responsible thing to do is to release them to fend for themselves.

Seems the Empire has been doing this, even before the Civil War began.

I dunno. This seems different. I think the Empire has thus far done the best it can, besides the Empire now comprises of Highrock, Skyrim and Cyrodil, whereas before Hammerfell was/was not a Province anyways. And wasn't really a functional Province at that.

I wish I could sit here and see this as some way the Stormcloaks are right. Every angle however, I just don't see that. Maybe if Ulfric had done some things differently. But, his record and most of his actions don't bode well for him.

Of course, even though most of my time here I've defended the Empire though sometimes something gets so corrupt your only option is to Decon and Recon.

But there's too much hope left for the Empire to just "throw it away". That would probably be the biggest mistake of all.

Oh well... the weaker the Empire gets the stronger the Thalmor will be. Good for me! Maybe not so good for Nords and Imperials. XD

Of course, it's all in your perspective. I have to say if the Fed Gov or whoever banned my 'God' or banned something I really like doing like playing Skyrim and such, I couldn't defend them. I wouldn't support them. However, it would also depend on other things such as the reason, "why". If it was because of a war, I could be more understanding.

But if it were done out of spite and malice by a certain group there would be war. Terrible, terrible, unending war. Sufficed to say, I think the Empire is vindicated in this regard.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
I think when he says "where's your sense of the dramatic moment" he's sort of making fun of himself and the Stormcloaks, and Galmar's like "haha, very funny." It gets over the top at times but the Nordic image thing is politically genius.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e0e

This ties into Imperial victory killing Nord nationalism. Either you have a bunch of stubborn Nords you're now executing or imprisoning or you're forcing them to renounce what they believe in.

The worship of Talos will finally be stamped out. Or so they think. Those true sons and daughters of Skyrim will never cease to worship mighty Talos. If we cannot do so in our temples, we will do so in our hearts.

They won't give up and when the next war starts and the Concordat is thrown out the window, they will lose whatever hatred they have for the Empire and refocus on the Aldmeri Dominion.

I think Ralof figured it out when they started heading for Helgen. If they were caught at Darkwater Crossing they would've entered Cyrodiil through the passage in the Rift.

That would be very stupid. Slow moving prison transport crossing heavy Stormcloak controlled area and waltz down the road past a capital filled with a garrison?

Ralof wouldn't know what they were doing, not even Hadvar figured out what they were up to until they reached Helgen. Tullius seemed to change his mind spur of the moment, which I suspect was due to the Thalmor. They did show up at Helgen before Tullius himself had and were demanding the prisoners be transferred into their hands.

See this where I think Stormcloak critics get a little unreasonable. The Old Holds don't want to change but things keep getting forced on to them. Refugees, the Concordat, justiciars, etc.

It doesn't matter, they prefer isolation, they put Nords first above everyone else. They're not bad people, just they're the diehards of Skyrim. Much like Colovia are the diehards of the Empire, yet neither are fit to rule.

Colovia and Eastern Skyrim share very much in common. Religious, war-like, and they distrust outsiders. They don't respect you until you've proven yourself. They hold to traditions of their forefathers, slow to change.

The moment Ulfric became jarl he probably started making preparations for war, he founded his army, spread propaganda, stockpiled food and weapons and eventually had skirmishes near Windhelm break out. The Dunmer werent relocated to the Grey Quarter were they? Ulfric didn't start ordering Rolff to go on his drunken rants. Exactly, real change takes time, and we never see Ulfric without the war. I'm sure he wants to make an ally out of the Dunmer if he can, or at least keep them happy enough he doesn't have a revolt on his hands.

Except that isn't what we see, and it isn't what his supporters see. There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.

Ulfric has a duty still to those in his city. He banished the Argonians, and there isn't a reason why, except what Brunwulf tells us which is there are Nords who still believe as Ulfric does.

"Can't see why we let them dark elves live inside the walls. We should kick 'em out like we did to the scalebacks."

Rolff is the brother of Ulfric's second in command, the second highest ranking member of the Stormcloaks. Even if Ulfric doesn't order him, he's out there giving Stormcloaks a bad name and Ulfric doesn't bring him to heel.

Don't think of Rolff as a loner, he represents a population of Nords who hate the Dark Elves and give them hell.

Ulfric will face revolt while he continues to ignore them, because his own supporters see it as he hates them. They feed off of it, Ulfric's inactions allows a racist social structure to happen in his city.

Even with his steward, they don't have the resources to improve anything. And aren't the buildings privately owned anyways...?

They don't need the resources now. They just want the issue addressed and discussed. Is it so hard to just acknowledge them? Ignoring them doesn't help the matter, it is stupidity. He has to start treating non-Nords as fairly he treats Nords if he even hopes to be a good High King.

Only the rich would most likely be able to afford a home privately. Most things would be considered "Jarl's holdings". The Dunmer aren't on about inside the homes, they're talking about the streets and outside. Most of the buildings in the Gray Quarter are stone work if I remember correctly, attached to the wall. The mention of cramped alleys would mean zoning and clearing of rubble.

You need special permissions to do things, even hunting.

Yeah but the west has Solitude, Whiterun and Markarth, and with Riften falling on hard times, you'll see some western influence for sure in the years to come.

Solitude does well, but it was the capital of Skyrim for hundreds of years. Empire would have flooded it with commerce, traders from all over would most likely want to sell in the capital, and other businesses would be higher class due to foreign nobles and dignitaries on visits to the city.

Had Windhelm been the seat of the royal line, it would be very rich too. Whiterun isn't a Western Hold, it is smack in the middle of East and West and serves as the trade hub of the entire province. Markarth is indeed rich, but that provides wealth for Skyrim.

Eastmarch isn't poor by any means, they have two big trading companies located there. Though if they strike a deal with the Orcs, they would be able to buy off ebony. Make them a big deal to the Empire, since it pays a lot for it.

If Skyrim was a little independent, probably not anymore.
"The Legion will be staying here for quite some time"
Though I'm not sure how the Legion is going to be enforcing this if the Dominion comes calling.

It doesn't matter how many times the Empire brings the hammer down on them when they rebel. You can't kill the Nordic spirit, even when they're part of the Empire they're still proud independent people.

Tullius isn't just blindly doing things the "Imperial way", he has to adapt and he has Legate Rikke by his side to aid him in that.

"The General's put me in charge of assisting the new governments. I may understand things here in Skyrim better than the General, but I'm a soldier at heart, not a politician. But I'll do my best. This is the land of my birth, the land that shaped me. I'm proud to have any part in making it strong again."

Legate Rikke also becomes the de faco ruler of Eastern Skyrim. So unless you think she is bad, the Nords won't have too many issues with her rule.

"No, I suspect Skyrim to be my home for many years. Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self."

Even Tullius grows to respect the Nords.

So the Nords will be okay, they're not under the rule of someone who just hates them and seeks to oppress at any given chance. Rikke is a good woman, and treats all fairly. Even Winterhold is hopeful to rebuild with the Empire's help, and repair Nord relations with the College.

Tullius isn't that bad, he does care for the citizens and he hates the Thalmor so much he almost considered joining the Stormcloaks. He won't help them with their Talos hunting.

He also willing to free prisoners from the Thalmor (On PC though, since the quest to free the Grey-Mane is glitched).

The Redguards fought the war for 10 years on their own land, I can't see them being in a better position than the Empire when the concordat was signed.

Doesn't matter, the Empire would not have lasted ten years. They were hit hardest, the Aldmeri Dominion wasn't trying to simply occupy southern parts. They sought the complete destruction of the Empire.

A small part of Hammerfell being occupied, and the Imperial Legions doing most of the heavy fighting doesn't mean the Redguards had it like the Empire did. Only the southern areas of Hammerfell were devastated, so I'd say from Sentinel and Gilane down.

All of Cyrodiil was just about conquered with the exception of the snowy northern areas. Where the Imperial Army had to winter up after the Aldmeri had destroyed the Legion Supply Depots.

"It got bad back in Cyrodiil. The war with the Thalmor ruined... everything."

That's still speculation though. You can interpret that quote a million ways and I think all of us are really over-analyzing it.

But do you understand how humiliating this loss would be? Everything you believe to be what your homeland is all about has just been crushed by this foriegn empire. If the Stormcloaks lose, Skyrim will be way more of a subject to the Empire in the years to come, you have to think they'll be punished for this rebellion.

If you look at where Darkwater is, it wouldn't take that long to get to the border, and the Stormcloaks could have camps all along the road to Helgen, and you're still passing through Stormcloak territory no matter what.

So you agree with me here? The Old Holds just want things to stay the way they are, and continue living as they have for generations. When all these things (concordat, justiciars, a race you've never seen eye to with sending loads of refugees your way) are forced upon them of course they're going to push back a little.

Do you honestly think Ulfric is dumb enough to push the Dunmer to the point of revolt?

What I'm saying here is that the west (I'm including Whiterun based on they aren't as conservative as the East) will end up influencing the east because right now they are the wealthier half, which may lead to more tolerable Nords in Windhelm/a new place offered to them all together among bringing in other positive aspects from the Imperial days.

I'm not saying by any means Imperial rule would lead to a lower quality of life for Nords but you will see Imperial customs become more and more prevalent over Nordic ones.

The Redguard army that repelled the Dominion wasn't sitting around the previous five years, not to mention they were already weakens from waging a small-scale civil war among the Crowns and Forebears. I'd imagine their trade was hurting from their Southern coast being unavailable, and they were operating under a government that had only just been established.


It's a hard call to make. The problem is the Eastern Holds were already 'liberated' under Ulfric. The West didn't want to leave and Whiterun didn't care... which makes me respect them most of all but I digress.

No matter who wins, you're going to have persecutions and political tension.

I dunno... it would have been better if all the Jarls had come to a general consensus instead of all of Skyrim getting torn one way or another.

No matter who wins Skyrim, it will be a loss. But Empire and Stormcloaks really don't have much of a choice than to fight it out because of bad decision making and absent leadership elegantly displayed from both sides.

Skyrim is like Ukraine kinda. You can win the war but by the time the pl*ps is over, there'll be so much damage done it won't even matter.

I think the Stormcloaks will work to preserve the old ways but... they don't always stick to tradition(s) themselves. Whereas the Imperial tradition survives no matter what. But... I think Ulfric waging war against the West was a mistake. He should have worked this out differently, let them see for themselves their predicament.

Of course, I guess by Ulfric not invading the West it could be a security risk, down the line. He shouldn't have killed the High King. I think that was the event that scewed everything off the cliff.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That's still speculation though. You can interpret that quote a million ways and I think all of us are really over-analyzing it.

Those are script notes. When they create the NPC's dialogue, Each line is given emotion values, types, and sometimes notes/edits.

250px-Voiceacting9tutorial.png


Like that.

But do you understand how humiliating this loss would be? Everything you believe to be what your homeland is all about has just been crushed by this foriegn empire. If the Stormcloaks lose, Skyrim will be way more of a subject to the Empire in the years to come, you have to think they'll be punished for this rebellion.

They weren't punished for the last rebellion. The Stormcloaks don't equal all of Skyrim. There is no reason for people to be punished when the rebellion is crushed, and they're offered the chance to return to their homes. Only those who continue to raise arms against the Legion would really be punished.


If you look at where Darkwater is, it wouldn't take that long to get to the border, and the Stormcloaks could have camps all along the road to Helgen, and you're still passing through Stormcloak territory no matter what.

Except the Riften pass isn't secured, they would face the prospect of being hit from behind. They would need to pass either through Riften or directly under the shadow of the walls to get around the other side. The other option would be to head towards Falkreath, and then turn away from the road that is closer to Pale Pass all the way back to Riften and then pass close to the city anyway.

So you agree with me here? The Old Holds just want things to stay the way they are, and continue living as they have for generations. When all these things (concordat, justiciars, a race you've never seen eye to with sending loads of refugees your way) are forced upon them of course they're going to push back a little.

The Old Holds are set in their ways, which is why they can't rule as effectively. Skyrim was able to be ruled by the East when the West was still like them, however the West changed.

The Refugees were actually brought in by the Eastern Hold. They invited them, and gave them entry. They weren't forced upon them, they accepted them. The Empire didn't make them take the Dunmer either, Imperial influence was next to nothing outside of Cyrodiil in the years following the Oblivion Crisis.

Do you honestly think Ulfric is dumb enough to push the Dunmer to the point of revolt?

Not directly, indirectly yes. He isn't interested in listening to anything they have to say, and hates it when they're mentioned. His inaction towards them is interpreted badly, by them and his own supporters who see it as they should give the Dark Elves a hard time.

The Argonians also get given a hard time, who also hate Ulfric. So I do see a possible revolt, even if he doesn't mean to cause one. He isn't explaining himself to them or his supporters, who view it as a racial reason.

What I'm saying here is that the west (I'm including Whiterun based on they aren't as conservative as the East) will end up influencing the east because right now they are the wealthier half, which may lead to more tolerable Nords in Windhelm/a new place offered to them all together among bringing in other positive aspects from the Imperial days.

Except that the West has been the wealthier half for a long time, it hasn't done anything to influence the Eastern Holds in two Eras. They've always been divided in one way or another, under an Empire and even as two independent states.

I'm not saying by any means Imperial rule would lead to a lower quality of life for Nords but you will see Imperial customs become more and more prevalent over Nordic ones.

In what way? Imperial customs also include mixture of others. Colovians who make the majority of "Imperials" in the Legions are all Nordic in nature. Skyrim and Cyrodiil share very much in common, and even in the Western Holds you still see Nordic traditions.

Elisif with Torygg's war horn, the Bard's College burning of King Olaf, Courts are still very Nordic, even with heavy Imperial influence in Solitude for over six hundred years.

Though they have taken to the Divines more in the last two hundred years.

The Redguard army that repelled the Dominion wasn't sitting around the previous five years, not to mention they were already weakens from waging a small-scale civil war among the Crowns and Forebears. I'd imagine their trade was hurting from their Southern coast being unavailable, and they were operating under a government that had only just been established.

They have political infighting, they haven't had a Civil War since the Common Era. They bicker, threaten, maybe have the odd tiny skirmish. They were weak because they weren't united, not because they were killing each other all the time.

Be like if the Nibenese and Colovians decided they would have political infighting. You would see nothing get done and the province become weak, because they're too busy plotting, and trying to figure out what the other side is up to.

I'm not sure how much trade they would be getting during a war, where resources are all directed to the Military. Only Forebear areas would be devastated, the Crowns would still have majority of their holdings in good condition.

Their government wasn't only just established. They've always been two different castes. Warriors and Nobility. Them joining together wouldn't be very hard, their society wouldn't change dramatically, though it would improve greatly.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Rolff Stone-Fist
  • What he says:"You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink, and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks."
  • What he means:"You refugees have been living in this city for 200 years and have nothing to show for it. Our ancestors granted you total amnesty, a tax free home, and the rights to worship your foreign gods, but all you've done is complain about the past and turn a once fair corner of our city into a dung heap with your negligence. What the hell have you been doing all this time, and why can't you try actually contributing something to society?"
  • What Imperials think he means:"lol ur skins a difrnt color than mine so eat plops"
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Rolff Stone-Fist
  • What he says:"You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink, and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks."
  • What he means:"You refugees have been living in this city for 200 years and have nothing to show for it. Our ancestors granted you total amnesty, a tax free home, and the rights to worship your foreign gods, but all you've done is complain about the past and turn a once fair corner of our city into a dung heap with your negligence. What the hell have you been doing all this time, and why can't you try actually contributing something to society?"
  • What Imperials think he means:"lol ur skins a difrnt color than mine so eat pl***"


Have to agree with him, I really do. However. In my area of the US, there are an increasing number of "immigrants" from the Middle East. They are hateful, are very rude out on the roads and don't contribute at all as far as I can tell. Countries in Europe has it much worse though. And in both cases it's the Feds and EU encouraging this crap, not the local Govs.

Hate to say it but sometimes Empires can be too much of a good thing and when the head falls off the body the "Empire" is left open for anyone and everyone to plunder. Which is what is happening now with debt and welfare out of control and going to the wrong people.

Stormcloaks have a point on this one issue.

You know, there was this Muslim family who lived across the street and we got along fine. We'd have them over for dinner and they'd have us over and never, ever had any problems. They were moderates though, the wife didn't wear an head covering.

Perhaps a few years later they left and then this entire Muslim family moved in to another house. And I was out exercising one day, walked past them and was like "Hey, how's it going" or saying something stupid like that... I will never forget the cold look of death that was returned by them.

So, I'm just saying I can understand why the Stormcloaks are mad that their house is being shared by people who don't want to be part of the family and at best seem to be just using their 'family'. You wouldn't let a wolf or a mtn lion loose in your house just to prove you're not racist would you?

Still, Ulfric is not helping and seems to be antagonizing the situation or at least freely allowing others too.
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate


On this other post, if the Feds can take away one right, why stop there? They'll just keep taking until someone puts them back in their place. Which is rare.

Of course, one saving grace of the Empire here is the Imperial Leadership isn't entirely corrupt or trying to use the WGC to dime out their people. If this were the US, EU or anywhere else based solely on the pursuit of money, they would all collapse from something like the WGC due to internal corruption... which would be rampant. Like say someone banned a religion or ideology, people's families, chain of command, place of business, everyone would be selling these people out on their "witch hunts". Selling each other out over a Gat Damn percentage.

The odd thing though about the Empire... is the Empire doesn't seem to have this attitude. Gen Tully and Leg Rikke and several others are actually trying to fight the corruption, to not take advantage for personal gain.

Meanwhile, the Empire Titus Mede II however...
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Have to agree with him, I really do. However. In my area of the US, there are an increasing number of "immigrants" from the Middle East. They are hateful, are very rude out on the roads and don't contribute at all as far as I can tell. Countries in Europe has it much worse though. And in both cases it's the Feds and EU encouraging this crap, not the local Govs.

Hate to say it but sometimes Empires can be too much of a good thing and when the head falls off the body the "Empire" is left open for anyone and everyone to plunder. Which is what is happening now with debt and welfare out of control and going to the wrong people.

Stormcloaks have a point on this one issue.

You know, there was this Muslim family who lived across the street and we got along fine. We'd have them over for dinner and they'd have us over and never, ever had any problems. They were moderates though, the wife didn't wear an head covering.

Perhaps a few years later they left and then this entire Muslim family moved in to another house. And I was out exercising one day, walked past them and was like "Hey, how's it going" or saying something stupid like that... I will never forget the cold look of death that was returned by them.

So, I'm just saying I can understand why the Stormcloaks are mad that their house is being shared by people who don't want to be part of the family and at best seem to be just using their 'family'. You wouldn't let a wolf or a mtn lion loose in your house just to prove you're not racist would you?

Still, Ulfric is not helping and seems to be antagonizing the situation or at least freely allowing others too.

I live in South Florida and back when Bill Clinton was president he signed the wet foot dry foot policy allowing illegal immigrants of Cuba to enter the country, illegally, and to be allowed to stay and gain citizenship.


Since then the Illegals of Cuba, who were allowed to stay in this country after entering this country illegally, show nothing but hatred for the United States. They very much display what you're experiencing with the illegal Arabs, and they cost the tax payers an abundance of money. (Schools, legal,medical,etc).


Am I being a racist when I get pissed off when I hear these people speak nothing but Spanish? Refusing to adapt to our cultures and speak our native language. It's worst when our own schools are forcing our students to learn Spanish as they attempted to force me to learn it by putting me in Spanish class back in High school. I'm grateful that it was 2nd hour (still in the morning) as I spent that entire hour of class time sleeping instead of learning that venomous language. When these people break the law we must provide them with a free attorney PLUS an additional cost of having a Spanish interpreters on call.

When it comes to immigration I support the Stormcloaks 100%. Rolff Stone-Fist has every right to be upset at the Dunmers.
 

Seanu Reaves

The Shogun of Gaming
I have to agree with DrunkenMage on the fact that there is actually very minimal difference between most Imperials and Nords. And asides from the "True Nord" propaganda of the Stormcloaks there still is very little difference. The fact that for example the first real pro-Stormcloak you meet outside of Ralof is Heimskr, whose name is derived from old norse for "stupid, foolish, dumb" Citation means that at the very least his dogmatic rhetoric is probably to be taken with a grain of salt.

As for the immigration, I don't see evidence that Dunmer are freeloading nor are they giving up everything to help. "It's not our fight" is very reasonable to say, especially since they are likely still taxed. (As I would like to avoid the issues of applying contemporary partial knowledge to fantasy I can't add more to that aspect of said discussion.) The argument that they do nothing is often presented in game by those who are blatantly bigoted in their nature. Contrast to when Brunwulf Free-Winter says why the argonians aren't allowed into the city, which amounts to "There is to much bad blood between the Dunmer and the Argonians. It will have to be a slow transition." You can hear the reasoning behind his actions. For all his charisma, Ulfric does lack proper communication skills.

Personally, the overzealous religious dogma of the Nord's coupled with picking and choosing from which of the old ways they should follow, claiming to follow Talos yet striking out against the remnants of his Empire, shows more of shell shocked twisted view of the past more than anything. And at least to me, during the negotiations Ulfric (though arguably Tulius has similar hopes of support) is very self centered, he doesn't take responsibility for those he and his followers have killed until he is in Soverngard.

(Just here so I can have some leisure reading between RP posts.)
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
I have to agree with DrunkenMage on the fact that there is actually very minimal difference between most Imperials and Nords. And asides from the "True Nord" propaganda of the Stormcloaks there still is very little difference. The fact that for example the first real pro-Stormcloak you meet outside of Ralof is Heimskr, whose name is derived from old norse for "stupid, foolish, dumb" Citation means that at the very least his dogmatic rhetoric is probably to be taken with a grain of salt.

As for the immigration, I don't see evidence that Dunmer are freeloading nor are they giving up everything to help. "It's not our fight" is very reasonable to say, especially since they are likely still taxed. (As I would like to avoid the issues of applying contemporary partial knowledge to fantasy I can't add more to that aspect of said discussion.) The argument that they do nothing is often presented in game by those who are blatantly bigoted in their nature. Contrast to when Brunwulf Free-Winter says why the argonians aren't allowed into the city, which amounts to "There is to much bad blood between the Dunmer and the Argonians. It will have to be a slow transition." You can hear the reasoning behind his actions. For all his charisma, Ulfric does lack proper communication skills.

Personally, the overzealous religious dogma of the Nord's coupled with picking and choosing from which of the old ways they should follow, claiming to follow Talos yet striking out against the remnants of his Empire, shows more of shell shocked twisted view of the past more than anything. And at least to me, during the negotiations Ulfric (though arguably Tulius has similar hopes of support) is very self centered, he doesn't take responsibility for those he and his followers have killed until he is in Soverngard.

(Just here so I can have some leisure reading between RP posts.)
The Dunmer are heavily taxed.

"It is suggested, through dialogue with Viola Giordano, that the Dunmer are taxed more heavily than the Nords, and that these taxes can be raised at the Jarl's whim." -UESP
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Rolff Stone-Fist
  • What he says:"You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink, and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks."
  • What he means:"You refugees have been living in this city for 200 years and have nothing to show for it. Our ancestors granted you total amnesty, a tax free home, and the rights to worship your foreign gods, but all you've done is complain about the past and turn a once fair corner of our city into a dung heap with your negligence. What the hell have you been doing all this time, and why can't you try actually contributing something to society?"
  • What Imperials think he means:"lol ur skins a difrnt color than mine so eat pl***"

Except the Dunmer all work, provide the city with food and wealth from the shipping company, which one Dunmer is basically running since the owner is in mourning.

They're not tax free, the only people tax free of Skyrim are the ones living on Solstheim. That is what the offer was for, not freeloading in Windhelm.

They do more work than most in Windhelm. So I actually fail to see what they don't contribute.

  1. Their businesses pay taxes.
  2. They provide Windhelm with food from the farms, and hunted meats.
  3. They work in Nord businesses, and are quite successful for their Nord bosses. Like the Shipping Company and Brandy-Mug farm.
You're right Raijin, calling the Dark Elves Gray-skins and Argonians Scalebacks has nothing to do with how they look. Rolff is very straight forward with what he means, they're not fighting for the Stormcloaks directly (Even though everything they do goes into supplying the Stormcloaks).
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Contrast to when Brunwulf Free-Winter says why the argonians aren't allowed into the city, which amounts to "There is to much bad blood between the Dunmer and the Argonians. It will have to be a slow transition." You can hear the reasoning behind his actions. For all his charisma, Ulfric does lack proper communication skills.

They're not having many issues with the Dunmer, one of the Argonians is meant to actually go drink inside the Corner Club (Doesn't due to an error in his schedule). I'm sure there are incidents where all three races have issues at one point or another, but it goes back to the Nords or rather the Stormcloaks. Their prejudice spreads.

"I'd like to, but it's not as simple as that. Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted. Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety. Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone." - Brunwulf
 
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