J
Jeremius
Guest
Uh, Saving his men? Rebels who were branded traitors for joining the rebellion? You must be on Skooma to think that.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Uh, Saving his men? Rebels who were branded traitors for joining the rebellion? You must be on Skooma to think that.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
And you don't think what General Tullius is doing is in favor of the Thalmor? The fact that Tullius has precious information indicating that the Civil war was the Thalmor's doing yet continues with this Civil war thus giving them exactly what they desire. Tullius finally releases this information for selfish reasons. Information for an exchange for his life.
Ulfric: "This is it for you. Any last words before I send you to Oblivion?"
Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."
Tullius: "We aren't the bad guys you know."
If you dig deep into the psychology of a diehard religious person... which is exactly what Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are you would understand that It is worth of going into full blown Civil war. To fight for your heritage and freedom to openly worship Talos.
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c4428
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c4435
J
Jeremius
Guest
Considering Ulfric takes forever and Galmar has to jump in to get the execution of Tullius dealt with, and Ulfric wanting the Dragonborn to kill him to "make for a better song", I have a hard time believing that Ulfric cares that much about Talos Worship.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I don't follow. Care to explain this? How is it allowing the Dragonborn to kill Tullius further proves that Ulfric doesn't care much about Talos worship? You've just now confused me.... to the max.
J
Jeremius
Guest
I forgot about the who wins the Civil War clause. Ulfric wants the player to him (Ulfric) because it is a better song if you win for the Empire, and he takes forever, drawing out Tullius's execution if you go rebels.
Point was, it seems Ulfric is doing this for Glory, not because of Talos or because it is right, or anything.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
There's still a chance, they're soldiers after all.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
I'd say you have a point here except I think if Ulfric were really like that he wouldn't have had a quick, private execution of Tullius. He could have paraded him around like Tullius did with him at Helgen but didn't.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
I can see from glancing at your profile you're pro-atheism but you have to respect that Talos has been a way of Nordic life for a very long time. It absolutely is worth a war, I don't think one set of beliefs are worth more than another. The simple fact that someone is trying to take away such a basic right is worth it.
TheNatural
Active Member
Kind of like the crusades!
J
Jeremius
Guest
Dragging things out is worse than just killing him, is all I am saying. Plus, How do you know that Ulfric would not parade Tullius around, since it was Galmar who simply wanted to kill Tullius.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
How is Ulfric really dragging it out anyway? He just won a war as a huge underdog, and he's basically poking fun at himself when he says "where's your sense of the dramatic moment?" because he does try to emulate a hero or stereotypical Nordic King.
Ulfric still planned to do it then and there.
"Any final words before I send you to Oblivion?"
J
Jeremius
Guest
How do you know? How do you know he wouldn't just drag him out the door and kill him right outside the door?
He seems like a man bent on getting glory.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
But he still listens to Galmar.
A man who saw his friends die far from home, lived through Thalmor torture, believes he was responsible for letting the Imperial City fall. He's had it too rough for him to only be chasing a good song.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
No, I don't mean to say all his actions are motivated by that. He does believe in what he is doing, but many of his actions are done for image. Even Galmar gets sick of it at the end of the questline at Castle Dour, when he suggests that you be the one to kill Tullius it he's 'robbing the moment by giving it to the "real" hero'.
If they were to renounce the Stormcloaks, it is possible they wouldn't kill them. Laying down their weapons and returning to the fold. The Eastern Holds population would already be slightly decimated after the end of Imperial Victory, given you cut through majority of the Stormcloaks.
They wouldn't just keep them prisoner forever, chances are they'll probably die anyway in jail. Prisons in Tamriel aren't that good and many die in the cells. (Some bodies are still even left in them!). I think being executed would be better than dying in a dark cell from poor health or freezing to death.
They knew they were dead even before they reached Helgen.
Lokir: "Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. But if they've captured you... Oh gods, where are they taking us?"
Ralof: "I don't know where we're going, but Sovngarde awaits."
Ralof: "A Nord's last thoughts should be of home."
These racial issues are normal, it is the Old Holds. They've always been for Skyrim for the Nords.
Except that the Windhelm issues started when Ulfric became Jarl, years before the rebellion went into full swing. He did nothing when he had the resources, so I doubt he'll do anything when he has them again. It is mentioned his father and his father and so on were better to them.
Ulfric is content to ignore them. Even still, the Dunmer of Windhelm weren't after change right away. They mention that real change takes time, but Brunwulf at least spoke with them and discussed plans.
Ulfric is indeed fighting a rebellion, but he does have Generals. He also has a steward he could use to speak with them about it, they're supposed to run the daily duties of the Hold. Ulfric is focused on Nords, he's a Jarl of the Old Hold. I wouldn't expect anything different, they do not care for non-Nords.
The Eastern Holds aren't poor. Dawnstar is known for it's rich mines, and it is a port city, Windhelm also has a port and two trading companies stationed there. Riften has hunting for pelts which fetch good prices, and farming thrives in the Rift.
Winterhold I'll grant you is plops poor, but they did rival Solitude before the Great Collapse.
Nords bounce back. Skyrim is quite independent, the Holds are independent of each other, and very rarely does the Empire get involved in Skyrim. You can't kill their nationalism, they're a stubborn lot.
Stormcloaks are really a short term solution in the long run, same with the Empire. The Nords have to choose to unite together, conquering one side of Skyrim or the other only keeps them united for a time.
The Empire could not continue. The Legions did most of the work, the Redguards didn't do too much until the end. The Empire taking back the Imperial City was hard, very hard. It was a large scale battle against a main army. They weren't doing hit and run, and making Aldmeri rule hell.
Treaties are different because the Empire signed it five years earlier. They couldn't continue the war, the Dominion could. The Redguards fought the Dominion in their lands until they reached a standstill and the Dominion left to recover. By that time the Legions were struggling to bring order back to their lands with all the bandits, gangs, and other groups taking advantage of the lack of Imperial authority.
The Empire could barely maintain order in the peaceful years that followed. Had they continued the war, I doubt they would have ever been able to get order back under control. While the Dominion would just be regaining strength, the Empire would be falling apart due to lack of order.
Kind of what Skyrim is having without the Stormcloaks and Legion fighting. Where you have bandits raiding, rogue wizards doing plops and dangerous creatures getting out of hand.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I personally think his experience and feeling guilty and weak is exactly why he would be after a good song, and caring about his image.
I would say he probably feels unworthy, trying to prove himself in the eyes of his father, the Greybeards, his men, his race. Even I suspect to the Empire. He is fighting a rebellion against them, but in a way he's proving himself to them. That he deserves acknowledgement.
The Thalmor had broken him, taken his dignity. He could be trying to redeem himself to the Gods and the dead in Sovngarde.
J
Jeremius
Guest
You sure you support the Stormcloaks? If so, then you need to learn more about the Nords. Ulfric is a Nord, and a warrior at that. It makes sense that he would be seeking a good song, to redeem himself of his capture in the Great War. Song, Glory and Honor, these are the key parts of Nordic Culture.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
Ulfric is a typical politician so having that self-seeking ideology seems pretty normal for the kind of job that he is in.
If you want to call Ulfric selfish.... go right a head. Hell I will add to the table that I agree that he is selfish... but! His selfishness is not only helping the people of Skyrim, but also himself... since he is fighting to not only rid of Imperial influences, but also fighting for the right to be Skyrim's new High King.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
To anyone that I am debating with (DrunkenMage) I've changed my opinion regarding to the Empire not enforcing the ban of Talos to strictly enforcing it.
I was reading some dialogue from a NPC, and realize that I was wrong.
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00041e1a
I was reading some dialogue from a NPC, and realize that I was wrong.
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00041e1a
J
Jeremius
Guest
Never said it did not, did I? All I said was I do not trust a man who seeks his own glory and song over the humility that humanity SHOULD have.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I never made a big deal over it. In fact I viewed it as humor.
