Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
So... was it the White-Gold Concordat or the Blue-Black Concordat that ended the Great War between the Legion and the Thalmor? ;)

(I'm so sorry.)
die
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Way different circumstances. Ulfric surrendered to save his men and take an oppurtunity to voice his concerns to the Empire, not knowing everyone would be executed.

Do you have a source for this? Because even if Ulfric had a tiny understanding of Imperial Law, given that he was the son of a powerful Jarl and served within the Imperial Legions. He would know that even insulting the High King was death, let alone killing him.

Ulfric being Ulfric most likely surrendered to have a better death than dying in the woods. Probably wanted to be a martyr, he is after the better song and story. Getting a public execution could do that.

At the point Tullius asks him, he's only surrendering to save his own skin.

I don't believe it has to do with his own skin. Even his dialogue file notes "a mostly hopeless question, but one that must be asked". I would assume as a pragmatic Military General who has lost most of his Military force, has wounded soldiers to care for, and has legionaries still out across the province in hidden camps. Would try seek terms for their treatment and safe removal.

Though this had nothing to do with Tullius, I was more in line of thinking about how Stormcloaks say the Empire surrendered in the Great War was cowardly.

Titus Mede II did save thousands of lives in going for a treaty.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
It is about the Old Holds finding an excuse. They never truly believed in the Empire, nor did they ever really want to be part of it. They chose isolation for the most part, always had that Skyrim for the Nords line of thinking. This war is merely about a politician feeding off of it, hiding behind a cause that lies to itself until they believe a golden age is at hand.
Oh yeah, that's why a ton of the Stormcloaks fought for the Empire and are ex-legionnaires. You know, because they didn't believe in the Empire. They may isolate themselves by choice but that doesn't mean they don't support them. That's like saying the U.S didn't support the Allies in World War 1 even though they weren't directly involved.

Betrayal of the Nordic people, and yet Nords stand against the Stormcloaks.
The Nords that stand behind the Empire stand behind what they've known for millennium. They fear change. They fear the truth. They're just like you Imperials who think Skyrim cannot sustain itself in a war against Elves because the Empire couldn't.

For themselves. Was it for the Empire when the Nords attacked Northern Morrowind? Was it for the Empire when they invaded Hammerfell and High Rock the moment Imperial authority dropped?
You mean before the Empire was even established? Yeah, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it for them then, unless the Nords are time travelers.

Half were loyal.
Half are loyal now, the Eastern holds have been, and always will continue to be, more traditional. they still practice the old Nord right of passage, they still pay homage to the Old Gods, the Empire was okay to them, for a while. Then the White Gold Concordant was signed and... well... you know.

So the Empire should have been destroyed? Then where would Skyrim be?
Skyrim would be an Independent state free to make it's own choices without constant Imperial intervention. Your Empire's already destroyed anyway. You can't even call your measly collection of fractured states an Empire. The Aldmeri Dominion may be full of Elven pricks with a superiority complex but they have unity. What does the Empire have? Half of Skyrim (the half of which has the Reachmen in it), and a collection of Kingdoms in High Rock that are constantly engulfed in power struggles. And YOU expect to take on the Aldmeri Dominion head on? You're the same people who couldn't fight a defensive war against the Old Mary Dick Minions with three provinces at your back. Good luck trying to invade two provinces covered in tropical forests and deserts wearing heavy plate armor. I can hear the Imperials complaining about armor chaffing already, and they haven't even invaded yet.

Fear of war? No, it is one thing to fight the good fight, quite another to go blindly to your deaths in a two second blaze of glory. War between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion is about to kick off, and the Stormcloaks choose now to try break away?
Blindly into death? That's the Nordic way of life, friend. You've pretty much just proven to me why the Empire has no place in Skyrim anymore. You also claim that the the Aldmeri Dominion was as weak, if not, weaker than the Empire by the end of the war, then you go and claim that continuing to fight the war would be going blindly to your death even though all of Hammerfell and most of Skyrim wanted to keep fighting, High Rock could give a plops. Hammerfell seceded and they won, by themselves. Ruined country or not, they won and they still live. What does that say about the Empire's chances?

You call the Empire the cowards? You try leave now on the brink of war, distract the Empire from the Aldmeri threat for what? For Talos? For Ulfric? For the silly notion of "True Nords"?
Yes, I do think they left for reasons of pure cowardice and I commend the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim in that they at least have the balls to nut up and fight the Thalmor by themselves. By pure determination, ferocity and grit, they will win. Just like Hammerfell.

The Empire who fought a long and bloody war, the Empire who is rebuilding and preparing for war?
That same Empire that could have won if they just continued to fight, but feared the loss of their power and surrendered because of it?

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim."

I couldn't care less about the rest of Tamriel. I wan't Nordic independence and Thalmor exile, that's what most Nords want. You think Ulfric is stupid enough to invade Alinor on his own?

Free of Aldmeri tyranny? You opened the door for them, weakened Skyrim and the Empire for a petty chair. The Dominion are there gathering strength while the Empire has to deal with this rebellion that is hiding behind reasons that would no longer matter soon enough.
We opened the door for them? You let them regain their strength. We're weakening an already weak Empire that couldn't put a dent in the Aldmeri Dominion in it's current state.

Who are the real cowards, the Imperials at the Dominion's border preparing for the war that will either make or break mankind's place in Tamriel.

Or the Nords hiding behind their mountains, hiding behind symbols, hiding behind stories and legends of victory against elves from a bygone age.
Whats more cowardly? Refusing to fight a war because you fear the collapse of your power, or fighting a war for your traditions when it leads to the collapse of a power that oppresses you because they fear war?

What I can count on is that Skyrim is the weakest province in Tamriel, ravaged by war and dragons.
Skyrim wasn't even touched by the brunt of the Great War and THEY'RE the weakest? Not, you know, the country that lost an entire chunk of it's to the Red Mountain disasters, or the one that has deep seeded corruption in it's Elder Council and was also ravaged by War? How about the one that fought the Aldmeri Dominion alone. Y'know I think Skyrim is okay compared to the rest of Tamriel. We may have Dragons and a Civil War going on but its no worse than the rest of Tamriel.
 
Last edited:

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Way different circumstances. Ulfric surrendered to save his men and take an oppurtunity to voice his concerns to the Empire, not knowing everyone would be executed.

Do you have a source for this? Because even if Ulfric had a tiny understanding of Imperial Law, given that he was the son of a powerful Jarl and served within the Imperial Legions. He would know that even insulting the High King was death, let alone killing him.

Ulfric being Ulfric most likely surrendered to have a better death than dying in the woods. Probably wanted to be a martyr, he is after the better song and story. Getting a public execution could do that.

At the point Tullius asks him, he's only surrendering to save his own skin.

I don't believe it has to do with his own skin. Even his dialogue file notes "a mostly hopeless question, but one that must be asked". I would assume as a pragmatic Military General who has lost most of his Military force, has wounded soldiers to care for, and has legionaries still out across the province in hidden camps. Would try seek terms for their treatment and safe removal.

Though this had nothing to do with Tullius, I was more in line of thinking about how Stormcloaks say the Empire surrendered in the Great War was cowardly.

Titus Mede II did save thousands of lives in going for a treaty.

Ralof says he didn't want them to all die for nothing. Ulfric knows he's a dead man at that point. But his POWs could have (or rather should have) been saved, and there's a chance, if there's still any hope in the Empire, he could have raised his concerns about the Concordat, what Nords are going through, etc.

Haha do you have a source for this? If Tullius cared that much about his men he would have gave the city to Ulfric when he showed up at the gates, not sat on a bench while they were all cut down in the streets.

Titus had a bit more time to work out the details of his surrender, and that was the best he could come up with? Exactly what his enemy wanted?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Oh yeah, that's why a ton of the Stormcloaks fought for the Empire and are ex-legionnaires. You know, because they didn't believe in them. They may isolate themselves by choice but that doesn't mean they don't support them. That's like saying the U.S didn't support the Allies in World War 1 even though they weren't directly involved.

Oh yeah, that's why there is conscription. Why you had Nords in Oblivion who had fled to avoid Military service. It was a Great War, I'm sure many left to fight against the elves because they felt they had to, or maybe they thought it was fun. The usual excuses in war (those who joined willingly anyway).

The Old Holds isolate themselves by choice, the direct opposite of what the Empire stands for which goes for the cosmopolitan view.

That's like saying North Korea really supports democracy and freedom of speech, but chooses otherwise.

The Nords that stand behind the Empire stand behind what they've known for millennium. They fear change. They fear the truth. They're just like you Imperials who think Skyrim cannot sustain itself in a war against Elves because the Empire couldn't.

The Empire couldn't because they had lost well over half the army. Though I'm sure if the combined might of the Empire barely survived, a province who has just come out of a Civil War will whoop their arse.

You mean before the Empire was even established? Yeah, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it for them then, unless the Nords are time travelers.

plops, I didn't realize the Empire wasn't established 390 years after Tiber Septim was crowned Emperor. Taking their god damn time, then.

Half are loyal now, the Eastern holds have been, and always will continue to be, more traditional. they still practice the old Nord right of passage, they still pay homage to the Old Gods, the Empire was okay to them, for a while. Then the White Gold Concordant was signed and... well... you know.

The Empire ignored them. The dissent was there since Tiber's reign and even death. If you think this dislike for the Empire started with the White-Gold Concordat, you're mistaken. The Talos Ban was simply the final thing, and a major rally.

Skyrim would be an Independent state free to make it's own choices without constant Imperial intervention.

When has the Empire made Imperial intervention in Skyrim, besides this one time. Skyrim has a plops load more free choices than any other province.

Your Empire's already destroyed anyway.

Still standing.

You can't even call your measly collection of fractured states an Empire.

Who is fractured besides Skyrim?

The Aldmeri Dominion may be full of Elven pricks with a superiority complex but they have unity.

So did the Empire, until the Stormcloaks started their plops.

What does the Empire have? Half of Skyrim (the half of which has the Reachmen in it), and a collection of Kingdoms in High Rock that are constantly engulfed in power struggles.

geopolitical_map_of_tamriel_in_4e201__english__by_fredoric1001-d6wclgg.png


Yes, measly collection indeed.

And YOU expect to take on the Aldmeri Dominion head on? You're the same people who couldn't fight a defensive war against the Old Mary Dick Minions with three provinces at your back.

Actually you're the same people too. Last time I checked, Skyrim was part of the Empire during the Great War.

The Empire had it's armies spread out across the provinces, it was hit by a surprise attack by a superior Military force. Couldn't fight a defensive war you say, yet it took the Aldmeri Dominion four years to get the Imperial City, and the Empire actually had the Aldmeri forces too weakened to move and on the run in Hammerfell.


Good luck trying to invade two provinces covered in tropical forests and deserts wearing heavy plate armor. I can hear the Imperials complaining about armor chaffing already, and they haven't even invaded yet.

Legionnaires are specially outfitted depending on a large number of factors, including climate, location, task, and expectations. They employed armors of chain, scale, plate mail, and gender-neutral skirts in the province of Morrowind in 3E 427, heavy steel plate overlying chain mail in the capitol province of Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis, and lighter leather, chainmail, and steel plate armors in Skyrim during the Stormcloak Rebellion. Battlemages tend to wear hoods, healers wear light padded armor, guardsmen on loan to nobles wear the vestments of their town, city, county, or hold, and rangers and foresters tend to wear fur or leather apparel in addition to their Legionary armor. In addition, uniform may vary depending on the culture of the local area or province.

What do you think they would have been wearing when they were stationed in these provinces? They even had armor for the swamps of Black Marsh.

Blindly into death? That's the Nordic way of life, friend. You've pretty much just proven to me why the Empire has no place in Skyrim anymore.

Yes blindly into death, great, you had your glory. Sorry to your families left behind to left at the mercy of the Dominion. Cause who cares about them, right?

You've just proven to me that the Nords are no better than the Thalmor.

You also claim that the the Aldmeri Dominion was as weak, if not, weaker than the Empire by the end of the war,

The Aldmeri Dominion could have continued for at least five more years. They were weak, but they didn't have their lands occupied for a year.

then you go and claim that continuing to fight the war would be going blindly to your death even though all of Hammerfell and most of Skyrim wanted to keep fighting,

The Empire could barely maintain order during the peace that followed the White-Gold Concordat. Yet less than half the Imperial Army are going to invade Dominion occupied parts of Hammerfell. How do you supply this army, your people haven't been farming and the Aldmeri were wiping out entire villages and people fleeing. So with the infrastructure of the Empire in near ruins, explain to me in your own thoughts on how the hell they were going to fight a war in Hammerfell, keep the borders protected, keep the supply roads safe, fight whatever remaining Aldmeri forces were still in Cyrodiil as there was mention to secondary forces.

Skyrim wanted to keep fighting, and yet they accepted peace. Where was the outrage twenty six years ago? The Redguards didn't want to give up their lands, they wanted to fight. Where is it that Skyrim said no? If it was most of Skyrim why wasn't there rebellion right away or refusal like Hammerfell. Not even Ulfric was opposed to the Empire until a year after the Great War.


Hammerfell seceded and they won, by themselves. Ruined country or not, they won and they still live. What does that say about the Empire's chances?

They won? Won what? The Dominion simply left to regain strength and left Hammerfell indeed ruined. What did the Redguards achieve? They held onto their province, that isn't a victory. That is a delay.

The threat remains, and once again the Aldmeri Dominion are lining their borders for round two.

Breton forces were devastated after Red Ring, as were the Nordic forces and the Cyrodiil forces. Retaking the Imperial City wasn't an easy thing. It was a massive battle, not some resistance and guerilla warfare.

Besides, it was the Empire that dealt the heavy blow to the Aldmeri forces in Hammerfell. So I say the Empire's chances are looking pretty damn good considering they survived.

Yes, I do think they left for reasons of pure cowardice and I commend the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim in that they at least have the balls to nut up and fight the Thalmor by themselves. By pure determination, ferocity and grit, they will win. Just like Hammerfell.

Hammerfell didn't win, you don't win by sending the Dominion from your lands with a treaty. Like the White-Gold Concordat, it is just a delay, temporary breathing room.

You only win when you kill the head of the snake.

That same Empire that could have won if they just continued to fight, but feared the loss of their power and surrendered because of it?

Won? How?

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.

If they couldn't keep order in the short years after the Great War, how would they have invaded the Aldmeri Dominion? Not to mention how the hell are you going to supply a war of that length when your lands were occupied for a year.

Tiber Septim had to use a giant godly golem. Yet Titus Mede II should have done it with less than half the Imperial Army.

You don't win, until you kill them all. You're not just fighting enemy soldiers, you're against an ideology.

I couldn't care less about the rest of Tamriel. I wan't Nordic independence and Thalmor exile, that's what most Nords want. You think Ulfric is stupid enough to invade Alinor on his own?

Thalmor don't leave simply because you want them to. They don't need a treaty to be there, they never have. Only way to be rid of the Thalmor is to defeat Alinor, even then they may pop up again.

You should care, for it'll take more than Nords to defeat them. Personally I wouldn't put anything past Ulfric, he's after a good song, wanting to be the hero. Men trying to be heros in war get themselves and often others killed doing something stupid.

Empire may have it's issues, but you're still going to need them to fight the Dominion. Skyrim and Cyrodiil need each other.

We opened the door for them? You let them regain their strength. We're weakening an already weak Empire that couldn't put a dent in the Aldmeri Dominion in it's current state.

There was no stopping them regaining their strength. The Septim Dynasty should have eliminated them when they were the minority, when they had the chance. Now everyone pays that mistake.

Has nothing to do with let them, the Empire would not have been able to invade the Dominion after Red Ring, or even before the Great War started due to people in all provinces being complacent and relaxed.

The Great War gave the Empire a kick in the rear, and everyone now understands the Thalmor threat.

Whats more cowardly? Refusing to fight a war because you fear the collapse of your power, or fighting a war for your traditions when it leads to the collapse of a power that oppresses you because they fear war?

Where is the Empire refusing to fight a war out of the fear of war?

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength.

"But to answer your question, the White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day."

"From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

"The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future."

"Skyrim's days are darkening, soon the Legion will be called into service like never before"

Looks to me like they're gearing up for a war, have been for twenty six years.

If it is cowardly to know when and when not to fight, then at I'd hate to see what it is to be brave.

Skyrim wasn't even touched by the brunt of the Great War and THEY'RE the weakest?

Skyrim was still touched by the Great War, thousands of Nords died in the war. The Great War was twenty six years ago. Skyrim is fighting a Civil War, and Civil Wars are bloody. Many would have died in it, and throw in the Dragons. No matter which way you want to paint it, they are attacking cities and Imperials/Stormcloaks are both suffering from them.

Not, you know, the country that lost an entire chunk of it to Red Mountain,

200 hundred years ago. Morrowind is doing quite well, and they've rebuilt most things. Protected by an elite army, and thanks to our actions in Dragonborn they have access to large amounts of ebony.

or the one that has deep seated corruption in it's Elder Council and was also ravaged by War?

Cyrodiil was ravaged twenty six years ago, and while they still have scarring. It has been twenty six years since their war. Skyrim is still having a Civil War, and it doesn't end after either questline.

There is corruption in every province. Though maybe you can outline which corruption of the Elder Council you speak of?

How about the one that fought the Aldmeri Dominion alone.

They were left with their province devastated, but they've also had twenty one years to rebuild and regain strength.

Y'know I think Skyrim is okay compared to the rest of Tamriel. We may have Dragons and a Civil War going on but its no worse than the rest of Tamriel.

What with Civil War, Dragons, Vampires, out of control bandits, increased Forsworn activity, Falmer starting a slow invasion of the surface, magical ruptures appearing all over Skyrim and a Daedric Prince planning on using the province as host to a plague... Throw in the fact we do mess around with not just one, but three Elder Scrolls.

Things are looking dicey.
 
Last edited:

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Ralof says he didn't want them to all die for nothing.

Ralof is guessing, he's a grunt, doubt he knows what goes on in Ulfric's brain.

Ulfric knows he's a dead man at that point. But his POWs could have (or rather should have) been saved,

This is Tamriel we're talking about. They weren't slaughtered on the spot, so they were lucky. POWs... That is a good one, maybe bandits can use that line.

and there's a chance, if there's still any hope in the Empire, he could have raised his concerns about the Concordat, what Nords are going through, etc.

This is the Empire of Tamriel, not the UN. There isn't this ability to raise your concerns and talk out your feelings. You're not going to like independent Skyrim if you believe that is what would show hope.

Raised his concerns, talking about what the Nords are going through. The man had just killed his King to prove his personal strength.

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

You don't raise anything, no matter if it is the Empire or independent Skyrim. Neither one is a democracy. You're living in a dictatorship.

Haha do you have a source for this?

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e04

Says it must be asked.

If Tullius cared that much about his men he would have gave the city to Ulfric when he showed up at the gates, not sat on a bench while they were all cut down in the streets.

Guess Ulfric didn't care about his men either. Are you serious? He should surrender because the Stormcloaks are at the gate? He would have gave the city? Ulfric could have lost the battle, it can go either way.

Titus had a bit more time to work out the details of his surrender, and that was the best he could come up with? Exactly what his enemy wanted?

Do you honestly believe a treaty that took many months, has three terms? All negative? Do you really think the Empire would agree to something that had just three terms that only favor the Aldmeri Dominion?
 
Last edited:

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Ralof says he didn't want them to all die for nothing.

Ralof is guessing, he's a grunt, doubt he knows what goes on in Ulfric's brain.

Ulfric knows he's a dead man at that point. But his POWs could have (or rather should have) been saved,

This is Tamriel we're talking about. They weren't slaughtered on the spot, so they were lucky. POWs... That is a good one, maybe bandits can use that line.

and there's a chance, if there's still any hope in the Empire, he could have raised his concerns about the Concordat, what Nords are going through, etc.

This is the Empire of Tamriel, not the UN. There isn't this ability to raise your concerns and talk out your feelings. You're not going to like independent Skyrim if you believe that is what would show hope.

Raised his concerns, talking about what the Nords are going through. The man had just killed his King to prove his personal strength.

"We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?" - Ulfric Stormcloak

You don't raise anything, no matter if it is the Empire or independent Skyrim. Neither one is a democracy. You're living in a dictatorship.

Haha do you have a source for this?

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e04

Says it must be asked.

If Tullius cared that much about his men he would have gave the city to Ulfric when he showed up at the gates, not sat on a bench while they were all cut down in the streets.

Guess Ulfric didn't care about his men either. Are you serious? He should surrender because the Stormcloaks are at the gate? He would have gave the city? Ulfric could have lost the battle, it can go either way.

Titus had a bit more time to work out the details of his surrender, and that was the best he could come up with? Exactly what his enemy wanted?

Do you honestly believe a treaty that took many months, has three terms? All negative? Do you really think the Empire would agree to something that had just three terms that only favor the Aldmeri Dominion?

That's the best explanation, I doubt Ulfric thinks being gagged and decapitated is a great way to go either.

So the Empire doesn't take POWs anymore? Actually I guess Helgen answers that for me... and the torture rooms...

I don't know exactly what happens within the Empire's courts but even Hadvar assumed they were headed for the Imperial City.

I meant your source for Tullius wanting to live to see wounded taken care of and all that.

Everyone knows that at Windhelm/Solitude it's over before it starts. The Stormcloaks ideology seems more likely to fight to the death for Talos, independence, Sovngarde etc. If Solitude falls the Empire still stands, if Windhelm falls it's the complete end of the Stormcloaks. And if you love the Empire so much why die at Solitude in defense of one general? Besides, Ulfric saw what was to happen at Helgen, so what good would surrendering do anyways?

Whatever the Empire did gain from the Concordat, the Dominion still won it by a mile. It has completly fractured the Empire. There's no way the Dominion was harmed by it as much as the Empire was. Explain to me how Hammerfell didn't have to give up everything to obtain their peace.
 
Last edited:

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That's the best explanation, I doubt Ulfric thinks being gagged and decapitated is a great way to go either.

Depends how you think Ulfric looks at it, since it won't matter how he dies so long as he faces death without fear. He does want to be made a martyr, or at least he's ready to be one.

So the Empire doesn't take POWs anymore? Actually I guess Helgen answers that for me... and the torture rooms...

They would if they can question them or use them for anything useful.

Other than that, the only time I can recall the Empire capturing prisoners was to execute them or sell them into slavery in Tiber's case. Though under the Septim's they may have been given to Necromancers.

I don't know exactly what happens within the Empire's courts but even Hadvar assumed they were headed for the Imperial City.

Probably be the same thing as Helgen but more people watching. An Elder Council member got himself charged with the same stuff Ulfric was, faced the exact same fate Ulfric nearly had.

Though it happening in Skyrim would be quicker, Nords aren't really people who hold courts of law. In Tamriel you're guilty until proven innocent, has been that way since the First Era. The punishment for the crime is death, and Ulfric isn't saying he didn't kill High King Torygg.

I meant your source for Tullius wanting to live to see wounded taken care of and all that.

It would have been more of a formality, he is a General. His duty to his men to ask the question, which is what I see as why it had to be asked. Even though it was a hopeless question.

I don't think he really cared if he died, he seems the diehard Legionary type. Dying in the service of the Empire is an honor to them, see it several times where entire Legions will sacrifice themselves in battle.

Everyone knows that at Windhelm/Solitude it's over before it starts.

They're still making demands at Season Unending if left with only their capital. Though I believe you get the dialogue option to point out that they only have one city.

The Stormcloaks ideology seems more likely to fight to the death for Talos, independence, Sovngarde etc.

The Legion is a different beast to that of the Empire. They will fight to the death, and Tullius is the only known account of a Legionary mentioning surrender that I know of and even that seems more of a formality of defeat.

If Solitude falls the Empire still stands, if Windhelm falls it's the complete end of the Stormcloaks. And if you love the Empire so much why die at Solitude in defense of one general?

Because they swore an oath.

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire. May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty. Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!"

Besides, Ulfric saw what was to happen at Helgen, so what good would surrendering do anyways?

No good, but he's after the better song. Ulfric is after that dramatic moment, and that whole scene in his palace and the drawing it out goes with his character. He's showing defiance and he's ready to become a martyr.

Whatever the Empire did gain from the Concordat, the Dominion still won it by a mile. It has completly fractured the Empire. There's no way the Dominion was harmed by it as much as the Empire was.

The Empire gained time, and that is dangerous to the Dominion.

It doesn't matter if the Empire is fractured, even weakened they're a great threat. The Empire doesn't need to survive the next war. I doubt Tiber's Empire will survive the aftermath of the Second Great War, but she still has fight left in her.

Are you sure the Dominion wasn't as harmed by it? Empire or Stormcloaks, they hate the Thalmor more than each other. The Thalmor are arrogant, their open presence merely causes better recruitment into the armies that seek to oppose them.

Explain to me how Hammerfell didn't have to give up everything to obtain their peace.

Ask the person who signed the First Treaty of Stros M'kai.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
That's the best explanation, I doubt Ulfric thinks being gagged and decapitated is a great way to go either.

Depends how you think Ulfric looks at it, since it won't matter how he dies so long as he faces death without fear. He does want to be made a martyr, or at least he's ready to be one.

So the Empire doesn't take POWs anymore? Actually I guess Helgen answers that for me... and the torture rooms...

They would if they can question them or use them for anything useful.

Other than that, the only time I can recall the Empire capturing prisoners was to execute them or sell them into slavery in Tiber's case. Though under the Septim's they may have been given to Necromancers.

I don't know exactly what happens within the Empire's courts but even Hadvar assumed they were headed for the Imperial City.

Probably be the same thing as Helgen but more people watching. An Elder Council member got himself charged with the same stuff Ulfric was, faced the exact same fate Ulfric nearly had.

Though it happening in Skyrim would be quicker, Nords aren't really people who hold courts of law. In Tamriel you're guilty until proven innocent, has been that way since the First Era. The punishment for the crime is death, and Ulfric isn't saying he didn't kill High King Torygg.

I meant your source for Tullius wanting to live to see wounded taken care of and all that.

It would have been more of a formality, he is a General. His duty to his men to ask the question, which is what I see as why it had to be asked. Even though it was a hopeless question.

I don't think he really cared if he died, he seems the diehard Legionary type. Dying in the service of the Empire is an honor to them, see it several times where entire Legions will sacrifice themselves in battle.

Everyone knows that at Windhelm/Solitude it's over before it starts.

They're still making demands at Season Unending if left with only their capital. Though I believe you get the dialogue option to point out that they only have one city.

The Stormcloaks ideology seems more likely to fight to the death for Talos, independence, Sovngarde etc.

The Legion is a different beast to that of the Empire. They will fight to the death, and Tullius is the only known account of a Legionary mentioning surrender that I know of and even that seems more of a formality of defeat.

If Solitude falls the Empire still stands, if Windhelm falls it's the complete end of the Stormcloaks. And if you love the Empire so much why die at Solitude in defense of one general?

Because they swore an oath.

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire. May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty. Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!"

Besides, Ulfric saw what was to happen at Helgen, so what good would surrendering do anyways?

No good, but he's after the better song. Ulfric is after that dramatic moment, and that whole scene in his palace and the drawing it out goes with his character. He's showing defiance and he's ready to become a martyr.

Whatever the Empire did gain from the Concordat, the Dominion still won it by a mile. It has completly fractured the Empire. There's no way the Dominion was harmed by it as much as the Empire was.

The Empire gained time, and that is dangerous to the Dominion.

It doesn't matter if the Empire is fractured, even weakened they're a great threat. The Empire doesn't need to survive the next war. I doubt Tiber's Empire will survive the aftermath of the Second Great War, but she still has fight left in her.

Are you sure the Dominion wasn't as harmed by it? Empire or Stormcloaks, they hate the Thalmor more than each other. The Thalmor are arrogant, their open presence merely causes better recruitment into the armies that seek to oppose them.

Explain to me how Hammerfell didn't have to give up everything to obtain their peace.

Ask the person who signed the First Treaty of Stros M'kai.

If Ulfric really wanted to be a hero/martyr that bad he wouldn't have fled Solitude after killing Torygg.

Im pretty sure the fairly progressive Empire took prisoners of war. The precursor of Stendarr was essentially the God of taking POWs. And in the Great War book he states Aldmeri POWs as a source for information.

Ulfric still has a case though, Torygg accepted his challenge, fully knowing the risks, and it is historically a Nordic custom.

So if you're saying the Empire doesn't need to survive the next war, why fight for control of Skyrim?

I don't really understand what you're saying about Stros M'kai. Are the Redguards better at negotiating than the Imperials, who are supposed to be the most politically adept race in Tamriel?
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Ulfric still has a case though, Torygg accepted his challenge, fully knowing the risks, and it is historically a Nordic custom.

Except it is The Empire that wants him dead and Imperial Law that condemns him to death, not Nordic Law.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Ulfric still has a case though, Torygg accepted his challenge, fully knowing the risks, and it is historically a Nordic custom.

Except it is The Empire that wants him dead and Imperial Law that condemns him to death, not Nordic Law.
Ulfric's objective isn't to go free, it's to show the Empire what exactly is happening to Skyrim.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Ulfric still has a case though, Torygg accepted his challenge, fully knowing the risks, and it is historically a Nordic custom.

Except it is The Empire that wants him dead and Imperial Law that condemns him to death, not Nordic Law.
Ulfric's objective isn't to go free, it's to show the Empire what exactly is happening to Skyrim.

You said he had a case, which is wrong, as the Empire sees Torygg's death as murder and treason, not showing them anything. By the Law of the Empire, Ulfric is a traitor and should be executed.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
If Ulfric really wanted to be a hero/martyr that bad he wouldn't have fled Solitude after killing Torygg.

He wants to be a hero/martyr, but he isn't that stupid. He does want to become High King, and simply staying in Solitude to be cut down would be fairly stupid. He'd have killed the High King, but then his rebellion wouldn't get anywhere.

The ambush provided him with a way to make it drawn out, he'd have died anyway. Instead of being slaughtered in the middle of the woods he'd be taken to Cyrodiil and paraded, sentenced to death etc.

Im pretty sure the fairly progressive Empire took prisoners of war. The precursor of Stendarr was essentially the God of taking POWs. And in the Great War book he states Aldmeri POWs as a source for information.

Which is exactly what I just stated, they only really take you and keep you prisoner if you can provide useful information. What could the Stormcloaks provide? Empire had Ulfric, so they can't question them on his location.

The Stormcloaks are a rebellion, not an army of a foreign Empire. They're not about to just send them to prison forever, they're traitors and thugs in the eyes of Imperial Law. Even Ulfric has wanted posters like some common criminal.

Ulfric still has a case though, Torygg accepted his challenge, fully knowing the risks, and it is historically a Nordic custom.

Nordic custom =/= Laws of the Empire. Just like Reachmen custom for blood sacrifices wasn't accepted, even though they became Imperial citizens.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

High King Torygg was just that, a King. He could kill you and nothing would happen, they wouldn't arrest him. Just as you see past Jarls of Skyrim being harsh and cruel (often lead to revolts by their citizens).

Tamriel isn't fair. Ulfric has no case, he killed Torygg and there is no if and but.

So if you're saying the Empire doesn't need to survive the next war, why fight for control of Skyrim?

Because I don't believe the Stormcloaks are suited to lead Skyrim. Besides the various racial tensions which are occuring under their rule, I don't believe a cause that benefits a single race and focuses mainly on Nords above others is what Skyrim needs right now. The Old Holds cannot rule effectively, while they are indeed the "traditional part" of Skyrim for lack of a better term. They've always been for the Nords only, and even if Ulfric himself isn't like that, many of his supporters are. Ulfric relies on them, and he has to heed to their wishes if he wants their continued support.

I'm all for independent Skyrim, and chances are they'll have just that in the future. I just don't see the Old Holds being able to change, and rule evenly and effectively. It isn't surprising that most revolts against Jarls have occured in the East.

Ulfric won't be around forever, and he does die 50% of the time. So if I take away Ulfric, the Stormcloaks aren't that appealing. You're left with Jarls who are of very differing opinions on how things should be handled which could lead to infighting if Ulfric isn't around. Winterhold wants more power, Morthal wants Riften, Markarath wants higher priority etc.


I don't really understand what you're saying about Stros M'kai. Are the Redguards better at negotiating than the Imperials, who are supposed to be the most politically adept race in Tamriel?

Redguards didn't negotiate, they fought a resistance. The Aldmeri Dominion were forced to sign the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai. The Redguards are one of the hardest people to rule over, children are trained in combat and rulers are trained in military strategy.

Tiber Septim could not even handle them, he was forced to sign the First Treaty of Stros M'kai... After they started a rebellion and even killed the Red Imperial Dragon.

Imperials are the union of two cultures. The most politically adept race in Tamriel would be the Bretons. Imperials have proved to be shrewd diplomats, but that is a generalization. Much like saying every Nord is a two handed barbarian. Or every Bosmer is an expert archer.

They're not supposed to be anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sah

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
If Ulfric really wanted to be a hero/martyr that bad he wouldn't have fled Solitude after killing Torygg.

He wants to be a hero/martyr, but he isn't that stupid. He does want to become High King, and simply staying in Solitude to be cut down would be fairly stupid. He'd have killed the High King, but then his rebellion wouldn't get anywhere.

The ambush provided him with a way to make it drawn out, he'd have died anyway. Instead of being slaughtered in the middle of the woods he'd be taken to Cyrodiil and paraded, sentenced to death etc.

Im pretty sure the fairly progressive Empire took prisoners of war. The precursor of Stendarr was essentially the God of taking POWs. And in the Great War book he states Aldmeri POWs as a source for information.

Which is exactly what I just stated, they only really take you and keep you prisoner if you can provide useful information. What could the Stormcloaks provide? Empire had Ulfric, so they can't question them on his location.

The Stormcloaks are a rebellion, not an army of a foreign Empire. They're not about to just send them to prison forever, they're traitors and thugs in the eyes of Imperial Law. Even Ulfric has wanted posters like some common criminal.

Ulfric still has a case though, Torygg accepted his challenge, fully knowing the risks, and it is historically a Nordic custom.

Nordic custom =/= Laws of the Empire. Just like Reachmen custom for blood sacrifices wasn't accepted, even though they became Imperial citizens.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

High King Torygg was just that, a King. He could kill you and nothing would happen, they wouldn't arrest him. Just as you see past Jarls of Skyrim being harsh and cruel (often lead to revolts by their citizens).

Tamriel isn't fair. Ulfric has no case, he killed Torygg and there is no if and but.

So if you're saying the Empire doesn't need to survive the next war, why fight for control of Skyrim?

Because I don't believe the Stormcloaks are suited to lead Skyrim. Besides the various racial tensions which are occuring under their rule, I don't believe a cause that benefits a single race and focuses mainly on Nords above others is what Skyrim needs right now. The Old Holds cannot rule effectively, while they are indeed the "traditional part" of Skyrim for lack of a better term. They've always been for the Nords only, and even if Ulfric himself isn't like that, many of his supporters are. Ulfric relies on them, and he has to heed to their wishes if he wants their continued support.

I'm all for independent Skyrim, and chances are they'll have just that in the future. I just don't see the Old Holds being able to change, and rule evenly and effectively. It isn't surprising that most revolts against Jarls have occured in the East.

Ulfric won't be around forever, and he does die 50% of the time. So if I take away Ulfric, the Stormcloaks aren't that appealing. You're left with Jarls who are of very differing opinions on how things should be handled which could lead to infighting if Ulfric isn't around. Winterhold wants more power, Morthal wants Riften, Markarath wants higher priority etc.


I don't really understand what you're saying about Stros M'kai. Are the Redguards better at negotiating than the Imperials, who are supposed to be the most politically adept race in Tamriel?

Redguards didn't negotiate, they fought a resistance. The Aldmeri Dominion were forced to sign the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai. The Redguards are one of the hardest people to rule over, children are trained in combat and rulers are trained in military strategy.

Tiber Septim could not even handle them, he was forced to sign the First Treaty of Stros M'kai... After they started a rebellion and even killed the Red Imperial Dragon.

Imperials are the union of two cultures. The most politically adept race in Tamriel would be the Bretons. Imperials have proved to be shrewd diplomats, but that is a generalization. Much like saying every Nord is a two handed barbarian. Or every Bosmer is an expert archer.

They're not supposed to be anything.

I'm just saying it's highly unlikely for all of Ulfric's actions to be motivated by a desire to be a martyr. Come on Mage, that "I fight because I must" didn't get to you at all?

To execute every Stormcloak would be to decimate the Eastern Holds population, and take away at least a few legionaires for the next war. You couldn't execute that many people without causing another revolt in the Old Holds.

Ulfric still has a chance, however slim, of speaking out to the Empire and pointing out the current state of Skyrim. He also, as far as he knows, is saving his men.

Keep in mind as far as revolutions go the Stormcloaks are pretty damn mild. It still is a revolution though, things will get a little extreme, and racial issues will settle down if the Stormcloaks win. Ulfric isn't one to make unnecessary enemies, but right now he doesn't have the time, resources or support to do anything about Windhelm. This is evident when Brunwulf gets up there and he's in the same situation. The Old Holds would also end up being influenced by the West, because it's simply unavoidable from how much money they bring in. So after things cool down I'm confident you'll see a more balanced Skyrim.

I really think this is Skyrim's one shot at independence. An Imperial victory just kills all nationalism.

Hammerfell and Cyrodiil were in very similar situations when they signed their treaties. Both devasted, but were facing a devasted army. Cyrodiil essentially fought and won their own resistance when they took back the Imperial City. But the treaties were so drastically different.
 

Faithless Imperial

Atheist Arch Mage
My choice might be obvious, but here's my explanation.

I prefer the Imperials and despite some shady activity I think they fight for the greater good and have more noble stances. Upon reviewing their motives and what they do in practice, the Stormcloaks seem worse and in all honesty probably would just plunge Skyrim into chaos. What the Stormcloaks are doing is exactly what the Thalmor want, to divide Skyrim and take over. I agree with the Stormcloaks message that there should be religious freedom to worship whatever, but, it is worth a civil war? I would have a lot more sympathy if they were doing in the name of Freedom from religion, which is fair more maligned in those times to be an atheist than believing the wrong god in a polytheistic society. I think a good compromise however would be to divide Skyrim into two areas instead. The Stormcloaks can keep the east (Windhelm, Winterhold and Riften).
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top