Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Dude don't be quoting Jorgen when he also has issues with the previous Jarl LOL

"The world's going mad, and our Jarl does what? She hides inside with her 'visions'. We need a leader, not some mystic!"

If you ask him if he trust Jarl Idgrod Ravencrone he response with:

"How can I? She never speaks with us. She's allowed this wizard, Falion, to live in our midst practicing gods-know-what. And now there's talk of rebellion, and dragons? What help could Idgrod be against them? No, we can only rely on ourselves. You'd do well to remember that."

It has nothing to do with his thoughts of the previous Jarl, the Stormcloaks made him question if they're better suited and starts to wonder that the Imperials were probably better off.

Of course I will quote him, he's talking about something different which is a change to indicate an event. That is like me saying don't quote Ulfric because he regrets his rebellion when he's dead.

Prove to me that Ulfric is a liar and a deceiver. Whats the point of showing me this dialogue between Tyhis and Madesi? Asgeir Snow-Shod dialogue was a side effect of his bereavement for the loss of his sister. It doesn't count as the truth of the fact but an emotional reaction. When you talk to him hes already in distraught about the death of his sister.

"Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help you much right now... I'm currently in mourning.", "You've caught me at a bad time. I've lost someone dear to me." or "Yes? What is it?"

Nice try thought.

It is impossible to do that for you. Since the Empire is bad no matter what it does to you.

1) "Empire is bad for fighting the Great War"
2) "Empire is bad for not continuing to fight the Great War"
3) "Empire is bad for signing the White-Gold Concordating"
4) "Empire is bad for not enforcing the White-Gold Concordat"
5) "Empire is bad when they do enforce the White-Gold Concordat"
6) "Empire is bad for not letting Skyrim go"
7) "Empire is bad for not trying hard to not let Skyrim go"
8) "Empire is bad for not agreeing to the Ultimatium"
9) "Empire is bad for [Insert the exact same/opposite argument to whatever an Imperial says and blame them for it]"

I bet when you play Skyrim and get killed by a Troll, you probably go find some random Imperial Soldier and kill them because it was their fault there are trolls. "You should have wiped them out! Stupid lazy Imperial bastard!"
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
That's the thing though Raijin. People have been proving to you that Ulfric is a liar/deceiver for 800 pages or so. You either respond to it with something irrelevant or a stray off topic. But to add to it:

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

Or

"Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders."

Also, I wouldn't count on High Rock coming to the rescue...

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

Ulfric also admits his mistakes in death....

"Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless."

The Snow-Shod's, last I recall, were staunch Stormcloak supporters. Why would the death of his sister affect the view of his family's and his own ideology? Unless that IS his ideology, which it is. If anything he would blame the Empire in some way or form, but he doesn't be cause he's smarter than that. It's a shame that the Stormcloaks killed his wife....;)

No people have not been proving to me that Ulfric is a liar and a deceiver 800 some pages ago, and you proven my point by giving me an unexplained dialogue between Ulfric and Galmar. What am I suppose to see in the dialogue that has you convinced that Ulfric is lying or deceiving? I saw nothing in that caliber that issued such an argument. Even with the dialogue with Galmar. Ulfric has just won the Civil war. While hes not officially titled as High King by the Moot he very much started taking the responsibilities of one. Ulfric has entrusted Galmar to make sure that the new Jarls are following orders of their new unofficial High King.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
What has Ulfric even done as Jarl? We'll assume he's been Jarl for a good number of years, why did he ignore the Dunmer and their treatment? Why has he allowed a racist social structure to occur without even trying to rule his people fairly?

You Stormcloaks say he can't do anything because of the war... Yet the Dunmer's problems started when he became the Jarl, well before the open Civil War. You say he does nothing because he hasn't got the resources or time, yet he did nothing when he had the resources and time.

How can he be High King if he can't even do his duty as Jarl in peace time as well as war?

The problems in Windhelm quite clearly stem from Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak and his Stormcloaks, from what we know is that the Jarls and High Kings long before Ulfric had welcomed the Dunmer, invited them. Even Ulfric's own father was known to be far more tolerant of the Dunmer citizenry under his charge. While Ulfric doesn't display a verbal racist agenda, many of his Stormcloaks do and Ulfric's actions or more correctly non-action towards a racial plight simply shows his disdain for those who aren't Nords.

Even with the Argonians being banished from living inside the city walls, with no clear motive, and the only reason we're given is that they can't come in due to Nords who think and believe as Ulfric does who may harm them. The Dunmer and Argonians aren't hostile to one another in Windhelm, one was even supposed to drink with the Dunmer (Doesn't due to an error in his schedule).

Why should the Stormcloaks be the ones to rule Skyrim, rule over eight other races, if Nords take priority for the new High King?
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
It is impossible to do that for you. Since the Empire is bad no matter what it does to you.

1) "Empire is bad for fighting the Great War"
2) "Empire is bad for not continuing to fight the Great War"
3) "Empire is bad for signing the White-Gold Concordating"
4) "Empire is bad for not enforcing the White-Gold Concordat"
5) "Empire is bad when they do enforce the White-Gold Concordat"
6) "Empire is bad for not letting Skyrim go"
7) "Empire is bad for not trying hard to not let Skyrim go"
8) "Empire is bad for not agreeing to the Ultimatium"
9) "Empire is bad for [Insert the exact same/opposite argument to whatever an Imperial says and blame them for it]"

I bet when you play Skyrim and get killed by a Troll, you probably go find some random Imperial Soldier and kill them because it was their fault there are trolls. "You should have wiped them out! Stupid lazy Imperial bastard!"

1 and 8. Emperor Titus Mede II was a belligerent fool for ignoring his General's warning regarding to the weakness of his military status, and because of his incompetence for failing to acknowledge the full consequences for rejecting the ultimatum that was given to him his actions is what started the Great War against the Aldmeri Dominion.

2. I'm surprise to see that you're not in an agreement with me on this considering the idea that at one point or another Galmar and Ulfric would of been killed during the war.

3. It was bad for Emperor Titus Mede II to agreed and signed the White-Gold Concordat after the damage was done.

4. If you signed an agreement with a faction is it your sole obligation to abide by what was written in the contract. If you do not enforce it then you're breaching the contract, which could very intitate the return of the Great war.

5. What? Since when?

6 and 7. Why not? The Empire renounced Hammerfell as an Imperial province after they complain about the WGC terms... why can't they do the same for Skyrim?
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
What has Ulfric even done as Jarl? We'll assume he's been Jarl for a good number of years, why did he ignore the Dunmer and their treatment? Why has he allowed a racist social structure to occur without even trying to rule his people fairly?

You Stormcloaks say he can't do anything because of the war... Yet the Dunmer's problems started when he became the Jarl, well before the open Civil War. You say he does nothing because he hasn't got the resources or time, yet he did nothing when he had the resources and time.

How can he be High King if he can't even do his duty as Jarl in peace time as well as war?

The problems in Windhelm quite clearly stem from Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak and his Stormcloaks, from what we know is that the Jarls and High Kings long before Ulfric had welcomed the Dunmer, invited them. Even Ulfric's own father was known to be far more tolerant of the Dunmer citizenry under his charge. While Ulfric doesn't display a verbal racist agenda, many of his Stormcloaks do and Ulfric's actions or more correctly non-action towards a racial plight simply shows his disdain for those who aren't Nords.

Even with the Argonians being banished from living inside the city walls, with no clear motive, and the only reason we're given is that they can't come in due to Nords who think and believe as Ulfric does who may harm them. The Dunmer and Argonians aren't hostile to one another in Windhelm, one was even supposed to drink with the Dunmer (Doesn't due to an error in his schedule).

Why should the Stormcloaks be the ones to rule Skyrim, rule over eight other races, if Nords take priority for the new High King?


hgE6uJccG9.gif

I'm going to make this nice and quick.

1. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum. http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000cdec6

2. The Dark elves aren't completely innocent in the racism department. They're as racist as the Nords http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim

3. We don't know exact reasons why the Argonians are forced to live outside of Windhelm... perhaps it was due to the fact that theirs still Dunmers who still carry their traditions from Morrowind. We don't truly know.

4.
5.
Very poor quality (Not my video)
Next subject please because this one is actually quite tiresome :)
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
1 and 8. Emperor Titus Mede II was a belligerent fool for ignoring his General's warning regarding to the weakness of his military status, and because of his incompetence for failing to acknowledge the full consequences for rejecting the ultimatum that was given to him his actions is what started the Great War against the Aldmeri Dominion.

Except the Empire would have fallen into complete Civil War, like Skyrim's little war, but 100x worse. Then we'd still be invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion because they had overestimated the Empire's strength when they sent the Ultimatum.

Empire barely survived the last war, I highly doubt they would have survived an invasion in the middle of hundreds of rebellions and Legions going rogue...

2. I'm surprise to see that you're not in an agreement with me on this considering the idea that at one point or another Galmar and Ulfric would of been killed during the war.

Along with thousands of others, and the Empire would fall apart since the infrastructure is in ruins after a year long Aldmeri occupation of Cyrodiil and Legion supply depots being wiped out by Aldmeri Battlemages.

Then when the food runs out, when the bandits and other insurgents begin to take advantage (like they're doing in the Civil War) how long until those Legionaries begin to lose hope, already at less than half strength, barely able to keep order during the peace offered by the White-Gold Concordat for years.

Skyrim starting to fall apart with the source of their wealth occupied and all their warriors dying in the south, settlements protected by what little "warriors" left behind, the very young or too old guards. Bandits in Skyrim begin to start raiding, and homes being destroyed.

Then what? The Aldmeri Dominion can keep going for many more years. Cyrodiil is in ruins, is Skyrim going to continue to fund the war effort alone? They've lost the Reach. High Rock? They lost Wayrest during the peace, so they're at the ends of their support after Red Ring.

No, I'm not in agreement. There are always risk to take in war, but suicide for the sake of stupidity is not one of them.

3. It was bad for Emperor Titus Mede II to agreed and signed the White-Gold Concordat after the damage was done.

No. That is the perfect time to sign the treaty. The Thalmor didn't get it cheaply, and the Empire showed it doesn't give for nothing. Or as the Orcs would say, we made the Thalmor pay the fl*ffing Blood Price.

4. If you signed an agreement with a faction is it your sole obligation to abide by what was written in the contract. If you do not enforce it then you're breaching the contract, which could very intitate the return of the Great war.

You have no idea what is written in the White-Gold Concordat. The Empire had to ban the worship of Talos, and they did. What people did in their own homes... Empire can't see. People break the law all the time, and if they're not very open about it how would the Legion know who is breaching the treaty?


6 and 7. Why not? The Empire renounced Hammerfell as an Imperial province after they complain about the WGC terms... why can't they do the same for Skyrim?

How can you not even see the difference? All of Hammerfell rejected the treaty, including their leaders. Both political factions would not agree to the terms. Skyrim did not reject the WGC, the Stormcloaks did many years later, and they were a minority for a long time. Not until several months ago did Ulfric gather his support after killing Torygg. Still, half of Skyrim rejects his claim for High King.

Hammerfell = Political unity.
Skyrim = Divided.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
1. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum. http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000cdec6

Yes, take the advice of a smuggler who is connected and bribing guards. When a thief gives you advice on "the way things truly are" it often involves criminal activity.

2. The Dark elves aren't completely innocent in the racism department. They're as racist as the Nords http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim

No, they're not. But, that stems from hatred and abuse. Find me someone who speaks highly of the people who treat them as second class citizens and segregates them, renames their living district to a racial insult... Do the Nords speak fondly of the Thalmor?

3. We don't know exact reasons why the Argonians are forced to live outside of Windhelm... perhaps it was due to the fact that theirs still Dunmers who still carry their traditions from Morrowind. We don't truly know.

What tradition? There is an Argonian that is meant to visit the Corner Club. They're not once violent to each other when they cross paths. Or threaten one another.

Their problems come from the Stormcloaks. "It's a new day in Windhelm. The Stormcloaks are gone, and so is their prejudice." - Scouts-Many-Marshes

4.
5.
Very poor quality (Not my video)
Next subject please because this one is actually quite tiresome :)

Nice video. "Blasted Dark elves" and then shrugs off their concerns in the excuse of " busy with all of Skyrim" funny how that excuse works even when Ulfric becomes High King. Again, why didn't Ulfric address their concerns before his rebellion? Why did he allow a racist social structure to occur. His disdain is obvious, he's merely ignoring them.

Again with the god damn spies? Spies don't walk around with Imperial armor and banners. Even the folks at UESP are of mind with me when it is merely the remains of Imperial rule in Windhelm. The Legion held a garrison in Windhelm years ago.

Ulfric not addressing their concerns, or even listening shows his disdain towards non-Nords. Even his supporters have picked up that he has no love or care for them. There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.

You Stormcloaks merely shrug off any oppression you put on others as "It is their fault" "They could be spies" "They can go anytime" ... You Stormcloaks can go anytime too, Skyrim is as much their home as it is any Nord. The whole "True Nords" you Stormcloaks claim to be is pathetic, you can't be any more Nord than another Nord. It is the true Scotsman fallacy, but with Nords.
 
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J

Jeremius

Guest
Again with the Dunmer problem? Isn't that debate getting kind of old @Raijin and @DrunkenMage?

Not at all. The debate always has to return to older topics, mainly for a fresh argument or a different aspect or angle to debate from.

We will probably see the "Dunmer were racist in Morrowind!" from some Stormcloak.

It just seems like it pops up every 5 pages or so. beating a Dead horse and all. Plus, it seems like the same people keep posting so it makes little sense to keep debating over something we pretty much all know right now.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It just seems like it pops up every 5 pages or so. beating a Dead horse and all. Plus, it seems like the same people keep posting so it makes little sense to keep debating over something we pretty much all know right now.

We all know just about everything. Though the point of a debate is merely wording, how you give your argument. Facts are all well and good, but you need to drive them home.

This is a debate thread, things popping up again time after time is normal. However they change with wording. Besides, I go Stormcloak at page 1000.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
It just seems like it pops up every 5 pages or so. beating a Dead horse and all. Plus, it seems like the same people keep posting so it makes little sense to keep debating over something we pretty much all know right now.

We all know just about everything. Though the point of a debate is merely wording, how you give your argument. Facts are all well and good, but you need to drive them home.

This is a debate thread, things popping up again time after time is normal. However they change with wording. Besides, I go Stormcloak at page 1000.

I personally understand and believe that there can be no clear winner in the Stormcloak vs Empire war. Why? Because it invalidates any choice of one is right and the other wrong. Both are right, and both are wrong.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I personally understand and believe that there can be no clear winner in the Stormcloak vs Empire war. Why? Because it invalidates any choice of one is right and the other wrong. Both are right, and both are wrong.

Obviously, we have all known this since page one. People don't care about who is right or who is wrong, most just enjoy the debate, even if it irritates them from time to time, they return.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I personally understand and believe that there can be no clear winner in the Stormcloak vs Empire war. Why? Because it invalidates any choice of one is right and the other wrong. Both are right, and both are wrong.

Obviously, we have all known this since page one. People don't care about who is right or who is wrong, most just enjoy the debate, even if it irritates them from time to time, they return.

That makes sense, but I fail to see the point of a debate that does absolutely nothing to convince people that your side is right.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I usually just read the thread to get a laugh.

Agreed. Besides Mage is doing a pretty good job pulling the Imperial argument wagon.
At least we're finally getting closer to page 1000.

You know what I find a laugh? These Stormcloaks who come in this thread going on and on about freedom of religion, the right to worship who they want etc.

Yet it is only a problem when their God is banned, and worshippers killed. Not once do they even bat an eyelash to Daedra worshippers who are being dragged off, tortured and killed by the Vigil of Stendarr for the last two hundred years.

Their cries for religious freedom are as deep and meaningful as speaking with a generic randomly generated npc who is merely a filler.

The many Nords who have been joining the Vigil for two hundred years are fine persecuting another religion, and the Jarls are fine to let it happen within their Holds, but when it happens to them... "OPPRESSION!!!!!!"

"Kill others for their religious beliefs, we'll even help, but don't touch Talos or we'll get upset."
 
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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
You know what I find a laugh? These Stormcloaks who come in this thread going on and on about freedom of religion, the right to worship who they want etc.

Yet it is only a problem when their God is banned, and worshippers killed. Not once do they even bat an eyelash to Daedra worshippers who are being dragged off, tortured and killed by the Vigil of Stendarr for the last two hundred years.

Their cries for religious freedom are as deep and meaningful as speaking with a generic randomly generated npc who is merely a filler.

The many Nords who have been joining the Vigil for two hundred years are fine persecuting another religion, and the Jarls are fine to let it happen within their Holds, but when it happens to them... "OPPRESSION!!!!!!"

"Kill others for their religious beliefs, we'll even help, but don't touch Talos or we'll get upset."

I guess what goes against Daedra worshippers are stuff like rituals, sacrifices and groups like the Order of the Black Worm forming though.
What I wonder is why so many Stormcloaks hate Heimskr. He should be an example of civil courage, preaching his belief without a castle to hide in, yet he's being killed off as a nuisance.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
You know what I find a laugh? These Stormcloaks who come in this thread going on and on about freedom of religion, the right to worship who they want etc.

Yet it is only a problem when their God is banned, and worshippers killed. Not once do they even bat an eyelash to Daedra worshippers who are being dragged off, tortured and killed by the Vigil of Stendarr for the last two hundred years.

Their cries for religious freedom are as deep and meaningful as speaking with a generic randomly generated npc who is merely a filler.

The many Nords who have been joining the Vigil for two hundred years are fine persecuting another religion, and the Jarls are fine to let it happen within their Holds, but when it happens to them... "OPPRESSION!!!!!!"

"Kill others for their religious beliefs, we'll even help, but don't touch Talos or we'll get upset."

Oh my... So you're sympathetic to the Daedra worshipers all of the sudden? You seriously think that they're being oppressed? Your hatred for the Stormcloaks has blinded you deeply... or you're just trolling us either way.

For an Empire/Imperial legion supporter I would think that you would be very pro Vigil of Stendarr considering the fact that their organization was created shortly after the Oblivion Crisis. The Mythic Dawn cult (Prince of Destruction, Mehrunes Dagon worshipers) nearly destroyed the world, and was responsible for the assassination of your Emperor.
 

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