Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Jeremius · Jan 29, 2015

Raijin said:
The Emperor was winning. He not only recaptured his city, but also captured the Thalmor's general. Now explain to me why the Empire had to sign this ridiculous WGC?

Maybe it had something to do with the Empire losing the blades, thus having no intelligence to go on that that was the complete dominion army, and having lost a large number of their soldiers made the empire wary of continuing the fight?

DrunkenMage · Jan 29, 2015

Raijin said:
The Emperor was winning. He not only recaptured his city, but also captured the Thalmor's general. Now explain to me why the Empire had to sign this ridiculous WGC?

Because while the Empire was able to wipe out the main Aldmeri army within Cyrodiil. The Empire's infastructure was completely ruined, they had less than half their Legion left and with Cyrodiil in flames how were they going to continue to supply an invasion or even supply their Military just standing around?

With majority of the cities sacked, many villages destroyed and civilians fleeing. Doubt many people remained tending to the farms to supply the Military, also had the Legion supply depot near Cheydinhal hit by Aldmeri Battlemages.

Going for peace makes sense, and this ridiculous WGC, you only know about three terms. No treaty has three bloody terms, not even a complete surrender is that one sided. You would be an idiot if you believe the Empire agreed to a treaty that was so one sided and only contained three terms. There would be hundreds of terms.

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength. - Great War

"White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day." - Delphine

Rimfaxe96 · Jan 30, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
So, what's wrong with that? Nords enjoy drinking, it's their lives, they can do what they want with it. Skyrim's their home, they can do what they want with it. There is nothing to suggest Nords aren't responsible enough to run a kingdom or sustain themselves independently, if that's what you're getting at. And even if they can't, who are you to decide your going to swoop in and look after them?

Hold your ponies. I didn't have any criticizing intention, just found something and thought it was a funny read since, you know, Nords are kind of the general topic in Skyrim.

I'm not wearing Thalmor robes just yet.

TheQahnaarin · Jan 31, 2015

DrunkenMage said:
Lewsean said:

He is Skyrim's last hope, in a nationalistic sense. With the Empire, Skyrim may very well survive, but it won't be "skyrim" if the Nords have turned into weak, submissive servants.

Click to expand...

They're far from submissive servants under the Empire. The Talos Priests all speak about how they will continue to defy the Thalmor in their hearts. With war just around the corner, are the Nords going to sit there sulking about things that no longer matter once the White-Gold Concordat is torn up and Tamriel decends into war?

Ulfric is far from Skyrim's last hope. You follow a politician who claims that he, and he alone is the last hope? You speak of nationalism, yet not one true High King of Skyrim would ever put themselves above their men. It would have been "We are Skyrim's last hope", you Stormcloaks fight with mismatched equipment, sometimes poor grade of weapons while the Jarl of Windhelm gets a fancy ancient royal looking blade made? Not even the Imperial Emperor Titus Mede used better weapons than his men.

The only weak submissive servants are the Stormcloaks, so wrapped up by Ulfric's words they don't even think about the lies he fills them with. According to the Stormcloak Officers, High King Torygg and the Jarls who supported him were to blame for the treaty in Skyrim (Which is odd since no one was against Torygg until Ulfric challenged him) and the Emperor surrendered when the Imperial City was threatened.

Even Galmar grows tired of Ulfric near the end of the war, so obsessed with his image. http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e0e

So you expect them to forgive the fact that they imposed a law that stripped them of a very basic right and gave free reign to the Thalmor to do as they please with them for over 25 years plus however much longer it takes the Empire to "prepare" and have them turn right around and fight with them?

Funny, considering Titus II was running around with a Daedric artifact during the Great War. Titus I is long dead, I'm not picking a side based on how one of your Emporers from 2 hundred years ago didn't use fancy weapons. Ysgramor had Wuuthrad, Nerevar had Trueflame, Talos had the fancy armor you see in Oblivion. Plenty of kings use powerful artifacts, it's not out of the ordinary.

Ulfric's cause does kinda revolve around the traditional Nordic ways and he's trying to gain support. You'll see in Skyrim artifacts and symbols seem to grab the Jarl's attention, like with Korir and his helm, the Jagged Crown, etc. Ulfric could be an ideal symbol for Nords to follow into the coming years.

TheQahnaarin · Jan 31, 2015

Ancano said:
TheQahnaarin said:

Lewsean said:

He is Skyrim's last hope, in a nationalistic sense. With the Empire, Skyrim may very well survive, but it won't be "skyrim" if the Nords have turned into weak, submissive servants.

Click to expand...

This is true. An Imperial victory means the death of Nordic identity.

Click to expand...

Aww you poor thing. Funny how Whiterun *had* Freedom to Worship Talos and *had* Freedom of Speech before the Stormcloaks liberated them.

We both know that if Tullius tries to impose anything on Balgruuf than he risks him angering into becoming a Stormcloak. What, is Whiterun its own independent kingdom or something for the duration of the game?

Anyway, Whiterun is a neccessity for either side in the civil war, and sometimes things have to be done.

TheQahnaarin · Jan 31, 2015

General Charles Xander said:
Lewsean said:

General Charles Xander said:

So I'm assuming the Nords were "weak submissive servants" when they were the first to immediately join Tiber Septim and support his rule? When they charged into the Battle of Red Ring, decimating the Thalmor? Nords are not weak with the Empire. In fact, they've been stronger than ever before.

Click to expand...

Not at all, because the Empire was strong and worthy of being part of. Now they're just a group acting for their own interests without much concern for civilians.

Click to expand...

How are they a group acting for their own interests? Because they're trying to rebuild and regrow everything that was lost in the Oblivion Crisis, SI and the Great War? You seem to be generalizing the Empire aside from Nords. How do they not have much concern for civilians? Isn't that why they are there? To stop a rebellion that is killing anyone who doesn't agree with them? I'd say that is caring for their civilians. If that wasn't enough, they patrol the roads that you travel on to prevent harmful creatures and people from killing you.

Who sounds like they care more about civilians?

1. A General who even in a time of crisis and under threat of a dragon attack disregards the capture of the leader of a Rebellion in exchange for getting the civilians, soldiers and even prisoners to safety.

2. A fanatic who instead of taking extra precautions to secure a direct confrontation with the enemy, fires flaming catapult rounds into the city not knowing or caring where or who it hits.

Also, for 2, if the Imperials are so obsessed with minimizing civilian losses or whatever, (not to mention they also catapult Windhelm) what's up with having to capture Riften, Dawnstar and Winterhold before going for Ulfric? Could of saved a lot of time and lives without taking the capitals of each of these holds. Kill Ulfric and the rest of it all dies down right? But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

TheQahnaarin · Jan 31, 2015

Rimfaxe96 said:
TheQahnaarin said:

So, what's wrong with that? Nords enjoy drinking, it's their lives, they can do what they want with it. Skyrim's their home, they can do what they want with it. There is nothing to suggest Nords aren't responsible enough to run a kingdom or sustain themselves independently, if that's what you're getting at. And even if they can't, who are you to decide your going to swoop in and look after them?

Click to expand...

Hold your ponies. I didn't have any criticizing intention, just found something and thought it was a funny read since, you know, Nords are kind of the general topic in Skyrim.

I'm not wearing Thalmor robes just yet.

Alright sorry about that. Hard to tell exactly what's meant just through text alone. Anyway I did enjoy the read haha.

Jeremius · Jan 31, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
Also, for 2, if the Imperials are so obsessed with minimizing civilian losses or whatever, (not to mention they also catapult Windhelm) what's up with having to capture Riften, Dawnstar and Winterhold before going for Ulfric? Could of saved a lot of time and lives without taking the capitals of each of these holds. Kill Ulfric and the rest of it all dies down right? But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Ulfric may have escaped to one of the other holds, or reinforcements could have come from the other holds and destroyed the imperial soldiers/militia.

TheQahnaarin · Jan 31, 2015

Jeremius said:
TheQahnaarin said:

Also, for 2, if the Imperials are so obsessed with minimizing civilian losses or whatever, (not to mention they also catapult Windhelm) what's up with having to capture Riften, Dawnstar and Winterhold before going for Ulfric? Could of saved a lot of time and lives without taking the capitals of each of these holds. Kill Ulfric and the rest of it all dies down right? But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Click to expand...

Ulfric may have escaped to one of the other holds, or reinforcements could have come from the other holds and destroyed the imperial soldiers/militia.

I mean taking the capitals. Look at Riften, for example. Why does Riften need to be occupied if your objective is Ulfric? How would Ulfric escape there if the nessessary precautions are taken, like cutting of roads and such. As for reinforcement concerns, exactly why you don't waste time and head straight for the Palace of Kings.

DrunkenMage · Jan 31, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
So you expect them to forgive the fact that they imposed a law that stripped them of a very basic right and gave free reign to the Thalmor to do as they please with them for over 25 years plus however much longer it takes the Empire to "prepare" and have them turn right around and fight with them?

They don't need to forgive anything, no one likes the law. It was a sacrifice that was needed to secure peace and rebuild. "Very basic right" worshiping whatever God you want? It was the Empire that established that right. You think Nords on their own liked other religions?

So the Stormcloaks don't plan to fight with the Empire against the Aldmeri Dominion? If the Nords plan to sulk and refuse to fight alongside the rest of the Empire over a treaty no one liked. Then they're even more unfit to rule themselves.

TheQahnaarin said:
Funny, considering Titus II was running around with a Daedric artifact during the Great War.

Which wasn't confirmed. Although wielding a Daedric artifact isn't far off for the Medes, and there is a difference to Ulfric and Titus II.

Using legendary sword to cut down enemies and lead his soldiers into the city personally. Having a copy of a famous sword made to look fancy.

TheQahnaarin said:
Titus I is long dead, I'm not picking a side based on how one of your Emporers from 2 hundred years ago didn't use fancy weapons. Ysgramor had Wuuthrad, Nerevar had Trueflame, Talos had the fancy armor you see in Oblivion. Plenty of kings use powerful artifacts, it's not out of the ordinary.

Those items became legendary because they were used by them. Thier swords, pieces of armor etc. Become legend by the actions of the wielder/wearer.

What kind of King goes "Make me a copy of someone else's sword"

TheQahnaarin said:
Ulfric's cause does kinda revolve around the traditional Nordic ways and he's trying to gain support. You'll see in Skyrim artifacts and symbols seem to grab the Jarl's attention, like with Korir and his helm, the Jagged Crown, etc. Ulfric could be an ideal symbol for Nords to follow into the coming years.

Ulfric's cause. Ulfric's rebellion. That is the problem, you might not have years and should Ulfric die... He left you with some good Jarls.

DrunkenMage · Jan 31, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
Also, for 2, if the Imperials are so obsessed with minimizing civilian losses or whatever, (not to mention they also catapult Windhelm) what's up with having to capture Riften, Dawnstar and Winterhold before going for Ulfric? Could of saved a lot of time and lives without taking the capitals of each of these holds. Kill Ulfric and the rest of it all dies down right? But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Riften:

"The Rift would help secure our communications with Cyrodiil... and threaten Ulfric's southern flank."

"We need the Rift. We need to regain control of it before we can march on Windhelm without worry about our rear guard."

Dawnstar:

"Having another port would ease our supply situation considerably..."

"Taking the Pale gives us another port in Dawnstar, and puts us within striking distance of Windhelm."

Winterhold:

"Winterhold would allow us to directly threaten the rebel supply lines out of Windhelm..."

"There's not much up there, but if we can regain Winterhold, our proximity to Windhelm should keep Ulfric wary and wasting troops garrisoned at home."

To humor this argument, you mention going for just Ulfric and not the other cities. Didn't they already do that? Pretty sure I saw Ulfric bound and gagged in the opening.

TheQahnaarin said:
But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Jeremius · Jan 31, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
Jeremius said:

TheQahnaarin said:

Also, for 2, if the Imperials are so obsessed with minimizing civilian losses or whatever, (not to mention they also catapult Windhelm) what's up with having to capture Riften, Dawnstar and Winterhold before going for Ulfric? Could of saved a lot of time and lives without taking the capitals of each of these holds. Kill Ulfric and the rest of it all dies down right? But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Click to expand...

Ulfric may have escaped to one of the other holds, or reinforcements could have come from the other holds and destroyed the imperial soldiers/militia.

Click to expand...

I mean taking the capitals. Look at Riften, for example. Why does Riften need to be occupied if your objective is Ulfric? How would Ulfric escape there if the nessessary precautions are taken, like cutting of roads and such. As for reinforcement concerns, exactly why you don't waste time and head straight for the Palace of Kings.

The capitals control the hold. You take the capital, you take the hold

TheQahnaarin · Feb 1, 2015

DrunkenMage said:
TheQahnaarin said:

So you expect them to forgive the fact that they imposed a law that stripped them of a very basic right and gave free reign to the Thalmor to do as they please with them for over 25 years plus however much longer it takes the Empire to "prepare" and have them turn right around and fight with them?

Click to expand...

They don't need to forgive anything, no one likes the law. It was a sacrifice that was needed to secure peace and rebuild. "Very basic right" worshiping whatever God you want? It was the Empire that established that right. You think Nords on their own liked other religions?

So the Stormcloaks don't plan to fight with the Empire against the Aldmeri Dominion? If the Nords plan to sulk and refuse to fight alongside the rest of the Empire over a treaty no one liked. Then they're even more unfit to rule themselves.

TheQahnaarin said:

Funny, considering Titus II was running around with a Daedric artifact during the Great War.

Click to expand...

Which wasn't confirmed. Although wielding a Daedric artifact isn't far off for the Medes, and there is a difference to Ulfric and Titus II.

Using legendary sword to cut down enemies and lead his soldiers into the city personally. Having a copy of a famous sword made to look fancy.

TheQahnaarin said:

Titus I is long dead, I'm not picking a side based on how one of your Emporers from 2 hundred years ago didn't use fancy weapons. Ysgramor had Wuuthrad, Nerevar had Trueflame, Talos had the fancy armor you see in Oblivion. Plenty of kings use powerful artifacts, it's not out of the ordinary.

Click to expand...

Those items became legendary because they were used by them. Thier swords, pieces of armor etc. Become legend by the actions of the wielder/wearer.

What kind of King goes "Make me a copy of someone else's sword"

TheQahnaarin said:

Ulfric's cause does kinda revolve around the traditional Nordic ways and he's trying to gain support. You'll see in Skyrim artifacts and symbols seem to grab the Jarl's attention, like with Korir and his helm, the Jagged Crown, etc. Ulfric could be an ideal symbol for Nords to follow into the coming years.

Click to expand...

Ulfric's cause. Ulfric's rebellion. That is the problem, you might not have years and should Ulfric die... He left you with some good Jarls.

A sacrifice that walked right into the Thalmor's plan of disuniting everyone, while the Thalmor had almost no force left in Cyrodiil. Where do they get that kind of bargaining power? The Empire has had issues with religion in the past, and they are certainly not known for establishing religious freedom. Yes, worshipping whatever gods they want. Are you saying you disagree with freedom of religion and it's perfectly fine to take away any religion at any time?

Look at it however you want it, it was a betrayal. Redguards see it the same way. The Empire showed it was willing to trade away its subject's freedom. They entered a war they knew they couldn't win from the start, get way in over their heads, and when they actually finally gained the upper-hand, they sign away one of their ally's land, and another's religion.

Doesn't matter how "unfit" the Nords are to rule, it's their land.

For God's sake, so now it's ok for Kings to use fancy weapons as long as said weapon was made famous by said King? This argument is just so obscure, and if you're going to keep redefining what is and isn't an acceptable weapon for a king to use then I have nothing left to add here.

TheQahnaarin · Feb 1, 2015

DrunkenMage said:
TheQahnaarin said:

Also, for 2, if the Imperials are so obsessed with minimizing civilian losses or whatever, (not to mention they also catapult Windhelm) what's up with having to capture Riften, Dawnstar and Winterhold before going for Ulfric? Could of saved a lot of time and lives without taking the capitals of each of these holds. Kill Ulfric and the rest of it all dies down right? But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Click to expand...

Riften:

"The Rift would help secure our communications with Cyrodiil... and threaten Ulfric's southern flank."

"We need the Rift. We need to regain control of it before we can march on Windhelm without worry about our rear guard."

Dawnstar:

"Having another port would ease our supply situation considerably..."

"Taking the Pale gives us another port in Dawnstar, and puts us within striking distance of Windhelm."

Winterhold:

"Winterhold would allow us to directly threaten the rebel supply lines out of Windhelm..."

"There's not much up there, but if we can regain Winterhold, our proximity to Windhelm should keep Ulfric wary and wasting troops garrisoned at home."

To humor this argument, you mention going for just Ulfric and not the other cities. Didn't they already do that? Pretty sure I saw Ulfric bound and gagged in the opening.

TheQahnaarin said:

But I guess Tullius has to have his big build up and sack cities with almost no strategic advantage, so he can look good right?

Click to expand...

Again, I'm talking hold capitals. The rebellion is broken after a lost Battle for Whiterun, and your saying a city waaaay down southeast is needed to secure the path to Windhelm? Winterhold? When it's the last city left besides Windhelm? Dawnstar I can see sure, but (the city, not the hold) Riften has to be besieged before anything else? If you just secure the forts and the roads, there's no need to take every city along the way.

Now don't get me wrong here, there's nothing neccassarily wrong with this strategy and I don't nessacarily disagree with it. I'm responding to the statement that the Imperials go out of their way to avoid civilian deaths no matter what.

You also can't deny that Tullius does do some of the things he does to look good for the boss back in Cyrodiil.

Jeremius · Feb 1, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
Again, I'm talking hold capitals. The rebellion is broken after a lost Battle for Whiterun, and your saying a city waaaay down southeast is needed to secure the path to Windhelm? Winterhold? When it's the last city left besides Windhelm? Dawnstar I can see sure, but (the city, not the hold) Riften has to be besieged before anything else? If you just secure the forts and the roads, there's no need to take every city along the way.

Now don't get me wrong here, there's nothing neccassarily wrong with this strategy and I don't nessacarily disagree with it. I'm responding to the statement that the Imperials go out of their way to avoid civilian deaths no matter what.

You also can't deny that Tullius does do some of the things he does to look good for the boss back in Cyrodiil.

Again, the cities are the capitals of the holds. Holding a fort means nothing if the hold guards take it back. and who is to say that there was a siege?

Plus, the Stormcloaks do the same thing stategy-wise.

Rimfaxe96 · Feb 1, 2015

DrunkenMage said:
Riften:

'Riften seems like a better choice to me. Well-fortified, easily resupplied across Lake Honrich. Plus all the mead we can drink.'

Don't forget what's real important here.

TheQahnaarin · Feb 1, 2015

Rimfaxe96 said:
DrunkenMage said:

Riften:

Click to expand...

'Riften seems like a better choice to me. Well-fortified, easily resupplied across Lake Honrich. Plus all the mead we can drink.'

Don't forget what's real important here.

Well then Tullius ought to be heading for Whiterun and Honningbrew if he wants the good stuff haha

DrunkenMage · Feb 1, 2015

TheQahnaarin said:
Again, I'm talking hold capitals. The rebellion is broken after a lost Battle for Whiterun, and your saying a city waaaay down southeast is needed to secure the path to Windhelm? Winterhold? When it's the last city left besides Windhelm? Dawnstar I can see sure, but (the city, not the hold) Riften has to be besieged before anything else? If you just secure the forts and the roads, there's no need to take every city along the way.

The Hold Capitals are what controls the Hold, be very stupid to simply ignore a city packed with enemy soldiers. The Akaviri learned that lesson. Yes a city "waaaay" down southeast is needed to secure a path. So is Winterhold, it cuts off rebel supply lines and you want to surround Windhelm.

If you just secure forts and roads, they need to be supplied from other Holds instead of the Hold they're within. You're also wasting extra soldiers in case one of the cities decide to try attack. So you would need to block all roads even to other Holds, in case they might attack an unprotected settlement and take it. You would need a sizeable force to hold the road, enough to hold out until reinforcements.

Taking the cities gives you extra strongholds in case your siege of Windhelm fails. If something unexpected occurs and you need to retreat, you don't want to suddenly find yourself facing the enemy forces you left behind in the cities.

Also means you don't need to take them later.

TheQahnaarin said:
Now don't get me wrong here, there's nothing neccassarily wrong with this strategy and I don't nessacarily disagree with it. I'm responding to the statement that the Imperials go out of their way to avoid civilian deaths no matter what.

They won't go completely out of their way, but they do try to limit civilian deaths if they can.

TheQahnaarin said:
You also can't deny that Tullius does do some of the things he does to look good for the boss back in Cyrodiil.

Such as?

DrunkenMage · Feb 1, 2015

Actually another reason for taking the cities is to leap frog your forces. Spreading your attack forces out until they march on Windhelm. I think Tullius or Rikke mention the Legion comes under attack by Dragons anytime they make large troop movements. So a logical thing to do would be to take cities and slowly move towards your target.

Store some soldiers at Winterhold and Riften until the rest leap frog up too.

TheQahnaarin · Feb 1, 2015

Jeremius said:
TheQahnaarin said:

Again, I'm talking hold capitals. The rebellion is broken after a lost Battle for Whiterun, and your saying a city waaaay down southeast is needed to secure the path to Windhelm? Winterhold? When it's the last city left besides Windhelm? Dawnstar I can see sure, but (the city, not the hold) Riften has to be besieged before anything else? If you just secure the forts and the roads, there's no need to take every city along the way.

Now don't get me wrong here, there's nothing neccassarily wrong with this strategy and I don't nessacarily disagree with it. I'm responding to the statement that the Imperials go out of their way to avoid civilian deaths no matter what.

You also can't deny that Tullius does do some of the things he does to look good for the boss back in Cyrodiil.

Click to expand...

Again, the cities are the capitals of the holds. Holding a fort means nothing if the hold guards take it back. and who is to say that there was a siege?

Plus, the Stormcloaks do the same thing stategy-wise.

Capital just means seat of the government. It'd probably be easier and less costly to just hold a supply line to Windhelm than to go and take every city. I think the sieges happen, looking through game files, they just weren't put in the game for whatever reason. I doubt Tullius is standing outside with a megaphone saying "we have the city surrounded, Skald/Laila/Korir, come out with your hands up!" I doubt even more the Jarl would oblige them.

Anyway the moral of the story is the Stormcloaks aren't any less careless with civilian lives than Imperials.

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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