Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Raijin said:

Doesn't surprise me. The Empire is full of Molag bal diseased ridden vampires... No wonder they took away Talos.

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There aren't very many of them. They lack large numbers, and tend to hunt down all other Vampire Clans that stray into Cyrodiil. Or they manipulate Vampire Hunters to do their bidding, and thin the ranks of clans in other provinces.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

...which has been dealt with by the end of Skyrim.

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Not if you yourself become some Vampire Lord.

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Nah, they pretty much force you into taking the reclusive, "don't stir up the people" kinda role.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

More than likely biding their time. They literally have all the time in the world.

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Because all Vampires are evil right? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Janus_Hassildor

If they're in power, they're known about by Imperial leadership. Since Vampires can't hide from Mages.

Besides Vampires, the Empire also accepts Necromancers, and indeed rewards Necromancers who have provided a service to the Empire.

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Well now we get into the definition of evil and all that. Their first priority is to feed. If an opportunity came up where they could make it easier for themselves...

DrunkenMage said:

Really? Interesting since he makes little remarks, which confirm he does indeed know. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Melaran

Has nothing to do with being into Necromancy.

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All that page shows me is that Elisif court is either very incompetent or lack of any common intelligence to realize who Sybille Stentor truly is.

Sight... Perhaps the Aldmeri Dominion is our best option for Tamriel after all.

Raijin said:

DrunkenMage said:

Really? Interesting since he makes little remarks, which confirm he does indeed know. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Melaran

Has nothing to do with being into Necromancy.

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All that page shows me is that Elisif court is either very incompetent or lack of any common intelligence to realize who Sybille Stentor truly is.

Sight... Perhaps the Aldmeri Dominion is our best option for Tamriel after all.

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At least Elisif has a court...

DrunkenMage said:

Maybe, but Black Marsh isn't really worth much. Didn't the Empire use it mainly as a prison?

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They did, but Black Marsh is a part of Tamriel, so to claim the title "ruler of Tamriel" it must be conquered.
Besides, Alinor was kind of a wild spot too when the Aldmer first arrived there. With a lot of work they can make something out of it, Black Marsh is pretty big.

TheQahnaarin said:

Nah, they pretty much force you into taking the reclusive, "don't stir up the people" kinda role.

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Don't they also have you kill important people in cities to frame the Dawnguard and turn other people inside cities into Vampires?

TheQahnaarin said:

Well now we get into the definition of evil and all that. Their first priority is to feed. If an opportunity came up where they could make it easier for themselves...

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Feeding isn't an issue. They get you while you're asleep. Though they're careful, and have rules about it. They can't truly hide from Mages, chances are many probably strike deals like Janus Hassildor did.

Raijin said:

All that page shows me is that Elisif court is either very incompetent or lack of any common intelligence to realize who Sybille Stentor truly is.

Sight... Perhaps the Aldmeri Dominion is our best option for Tamriel after all.

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It isn't easy spotting a Vampire if you're not a Mage, or trained Vampire Hunter.

Then many Stormcloak Jarls are incompetent too, since I've had to slay many "Advisors" who were Vampires. They even plan to turn the entire Court and Jarl into Vampires, and you get a bounty if you simply kill them.

I guess Nords simply lack common intelligence? Leave the ruling to the Empire, it seems us Imperials have to do everything... Gold star for effort though. It looks like we need to have the Legion take over, the Nords just aren't ready to rule without us holding their hand.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

Nah, they pretty much force you into taking the reclusive, "don't stir up the people" kinda role.

Click to expand...

Don't they also have you kill important people in cities to frame the Dawnguard and turn other people inside cities into Vampires?

TheQahnaarin said:

Well now we get into the definition of evil and all that. Their first priority is to feed. If an opportunity came up where they could make it easier for themselves...

Click to expand...

Feeding isn't an issue. They get you while you're asleep. Though they're careful, and have rules about it. They can't truly hide from Mages, chances are many probably strike deals like Janus Hassildor did.

Raijin said:

All that page shows me is that Elisif court is either very incompetent or lack of any common intelligence to realize who Sybille Stentor truly is.

Sight... Perhaps the Aldmeri Dominion is our best option for Tamriel after all.

Click to expand...

It isn't easy spotting a Vampire if you're not a Mage, or trained Vampire Hunter.

Then many Stormcloak Jarls are incompetent too, since I've had to slay many "Advisors" who were Vampires. They even plan to turn the entire Court and Jarl into Vampires, and you get a bounty if you simply kill them.

I guess Nords simply lack common intelligence? Leave the ruling to the Empire, it seems us Imperials have to do everything... Gold star for effort though. It looks like we need to have the Legion take over, the Nords just aren't ready to rule without us holding their hand.

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It's all a part of the war against the Dawnguard. The attacks on cities stop very early on in the questline.

What about Movarth's plan in Morthal? Plenty of vampires keep cattle, and if they could do that on a large scale in the Empire why wouldn't they? And how come in Morthal the vampire expert Falion can't discover Alva?

TheQahnaarin said:

What about Movarth in Morthal? Plenty of vampires keep cattle, and if they could do that on a large scale in the Empire why wouldn't they? And how come in Morthal the vampire expert Falion can't discover Alva?

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Do you believe, as a mere citizen of Morthal that Falion has met Daedra and Dwemer and everything in between? Would you believe him if he said that Alva was a vampire?

If Falion pointed out that Alva was a vampire, people would either call it BS or would want proof, like Thonnir said. How do you think the people of Morthal would react if Alva or Hroggar was to say that Falion tried to sneak in their house in search of said proof? The man is already considered toxic by everyone just with his knowledge in Conjuration and can't go to places without being bothered and even if he emerged with a proof in front of the Jarl, the people of Morthal would frown even harder at him just because of the initiative.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

Nah, they pretty much force you into taking the reclusive, "don't stir up the people" kinda role.

Click to expand...

Don't they also have you kill important people in cities to frame the Dawnguard and turn other people inside cities into Vampires?

TheQahnaarin said:

Well now we get into the definition of evil and all that. Their first priority is to feed. If an opportunity came up where they could make it easier for themselves...

Click to expand...

Feeding isn't an issue. They get you while you're asleep. Though they're careful, and have rules about it. They can't truly hide from Mages, chances are many probably strike deals like Janus Hassildor did.

Raijin said:

All that page shows me is that Elisif court is either very incompetent or lack of any common intelligence to realize who Sybille Stentor truly is.

Sight... Perhaps the Aldmeri Dominion is our best option for Tamriel after all.

Click to expand...

It isn't easy spotting a Vampire if you're not a Mage, or trained Vampire Hunter.

Then many Stormcloak Jarls are incompetent too, since I've had to slay many "Advisors" who were Vampires. They even plan to turn the entire Court and Jarl into Vampires, and you get a bounty if you simply kill them.

I guess Nords simply lack common intelligence? Leave the ruling to the Empire, it seems us Imperials have to do everything... Gold star for effort though. It looks like we need to have the Legion take over, the Nords just aren't ready to rule without us holding their hand.

Click to expand...

"I guess Nords simply lack common intelligence? Leave the ruling to the Empire, it seems us Imperials have to do everything... Gold star for effort though. It looks like we need to have the Legion take over, the Nords just aren't ready to rule without us holding their hand."

Next time free your own slaves, supply your own Dragonborn, get your own legions, get your own resources and we'll just hang out up here. Lemme know how it goes.

TheQahnaarin said:

It's all a part of the war against the Dawnguard. The attacks on cities stop very early on in the questline.

What about Movarth's plan in Morthal? Plenty of vampires keep cattle, and if they could do that on a large scale in the Empire why wouldn't they? And how come in Morthal the vampire expert Falion can't discover Alva?

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They continue, just on a more subtle attack.

Skyrim's Vampires keep cattle. They don't in the Empire, since it poses greater risk to discovery. Feral Vampires might, be a bit harder inside a city. Morthal is quite isolated, being an Old Hold it gets very little traffic.

Falion could discover Alva, however he's more interested in his research. Prefers to be left alone, he tends to avoid people so he can sneak off and conduct experiments at his summoning circle. He knows you're a Vampire, however.

Mr Forz said:

TheQahnaarin said:

What about Movarth in Morthal? Plenty of vampires keep cattle, and if they could do that on a large scale in the Empire why wouldn't they? And how come in Morthal the vampire expert Falion can't discover Alva?

Click to expand...

Do you believe, as a mere citizen of Morthal that Falion has met Daedra and Dwemer and everything in between? Would you believe him if he said that Alva was a vampire?

If Falion pointed out that Alva was a vampire, people would either call it BS or would want proof, like Thonnir said. How do you think the people of Morthal would react if Alva or Hroggar was to say that Falion tried to sneak in their house in search of said proof? The man is already considered toxic by everyone just with his knowledge in Conjuration and can't go to places without being bothered and even if he emerged with a proof in front of the Jarl, the people of Morthal would frown even harder at him just because of the initiative.

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The guys supposedly a hell of a wizard, he'd probably be taking matters into his own hands or start making peace with the vampires. He calls you a vampire right to your face if you come calling to him.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

It's all a part of the war against the Dawnguard. The attacks on cities stop very early on in the questline.

What about Movarth's plan in Morthal? Plenty of vampires keep cattle, and if they could do that on a large scale in the Empire why wouldn't they? And how come in Morthal the vampire expert Falion can't discover Alva?

Click to expand...

They continue, just on a more subtle attack.

Skyrim's Vampires keep cattle. They don't in the Empire, since it poses greater risk to discovery. Feral Vampires might, be a bit harder inside a city. Morthal is quite isolated, being an Old Hold it gets very little traffic.

Falion could discover Alva, however he's more interested in his research. Prefers to be left alone, he tends to avoid people so he can sneak off and conduct experiments at his summoning circle. He knows you're a Vampire, however.

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Right, so Alva is probably a more advanced vampire, or has some sort of spell better disguising her. She lacks the eyes doesn't she?

TheQahnaarin said:

Next time free your own slaves, supply your own Dragonborn, get your own legions, get your own resources and we'll just hang out up here. Lemme know how it goes.

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They did free their own slaves? In fact they freed Nord slaves. The Ayleids were taking slaves from Skyrim also. The Nords didn't come in until later, when Alessia made allies to take the Imperial City. Though it wasn't just the Nords, rebel Ayleid Lords provided as much, if not more help than the Nordic forces.

"Supply your own Dragonborn"? I don't know what that means?

"Get your own Legions" ... Where do you think the original Legions came from?

"Get your own resources" Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Could be saying the same damn thing.

Mr Forz said:

That's not for a decent sword. A steel sword is decent, if not actually quite good. Yet, what was wanted was a royal looking sword, you know, another semblance of symbol to hide behind along with all the trinkets and stuff from Nord origins to attract the masses. Thu'um, Jagged Crown. The man already prepared himself for the throne. It's a real comedy.

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And why not? I don't see why a man who is so ambitious wouldn't.

TheQahnaarin said:

Right, so Alva is probably a more advanced vampire, or has some sort of spell better disguising her. She lacks the eyes doesn't she?

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That is due to an error, she's classed as a Nord, instead of Vampire race. So her appearance won't change, even with Dawnguard installed.

Though interestingly enough, her being like that is in fact lore correct. Since she is infected with the Cyrodiil strain of vampirism.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

Next time free your own slaves, supply your own Dragonborn, get your own legions, get your own resources and we'll just hang out up here. Lemme know how it goes.

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They did free their own slaves? In fact they freed Nord slaves. The Ayleids were taking slaves from Skyrim also. The Nords didn't come in until later, when Alessia made allies to take the Imperial City. Though it wasn't just the Nords, rebel Ayleid Lords provided as much, if not more help than the Nordic forces.

"Supply your own Dragonborn"? I don't know what that means?

"Get your own Legions" ... Where do you think the original Legions came from?

"Get your own resources" Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Could be saying the same damn thing.

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The scales were tipped when Skyrim joined.

Talos. You know, the guy from Skyrim.

Skyrim, mostly.

Except Cyrodiil would be a worthless jungle if not for Tiber, and therefore if not for Skyrim.

DrunkenMage said:

Ralof mentions he's heard things about Ulfric he doesn't like.

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Yes. Probably got a good whiff of Forsworn sympathy from the Bear of Markarth

DrunkenMage said:

You didn't. However, he is your biggest supporter and provides large numbers of forces for the Stormcloaks. Perhaps you should be grateful.

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Oh sure, I'm grateful he's sending us able bodied troops. Some of the BEST warriors come out of The Pale, but that doesn't mean I support him in his absolute petty ineptitude.

DrunkenMage said:

Bryling is having a sexual affair with Falk Firebeard, he's quite the Empire supporter. She is a good advisor, but keeping Elisif gained Ulfric a better political move.

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Yeah, and Elisif hates Ulfric, sure he made a good move in preserving his rep. that doesn't mean that politically it's going to do him any favors.

DrunkenMage said:

Balgruuf stands by his decision when he makes it. His children? What do his kids have anything to do with it?

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You know full well the ONLY reason he doesn't join right up with the Stormcloaks is because of his rivalry with Ulfric.

DrunkenMage said:

Idgrod Ravencrone isn't a bad Jarl, and who are you to question visions from the Divines? I thought you Stormcloaks were supposed to be fighting for religious freedom, yet here you are questioning the mental state of a Seer?

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I'm sorry do we know she's a seer? All I see is a senile old women whose children want to make her twilight years acceptable.

DrunkenMage said:

She is hated by a few folk who dislike a wizard living there.

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Well to be fair, you'd be pretty grouchy too if you lived in Morthal, probably the worst city in Skyrim, and then had a decrepit old cook for a jarl.

DrunkenMage said:

We using Elisif now? In that case, Ulfric is hated by half of Skyrim, hated by many within his own city. He has unrest in quarter of Windhelm, his poor management has left the Hold's source of lumber go basically unused. Maybe if he spent less time focusing on his own image, he will see he has problems. Instead it is all "Making drama, songs about me. Make me a special blade that looks like an ancient sword, Mr Blacksmith, it has to look like a Blade of old, cause I'm picky and the paintings of me need to look right."

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First off, I never said there was anything wrong with her acting like royalty when she is, there isn't just like there's nothing wrong with Ulfric wanting a sword to symbolize his place as High King. Second, it's not all about that. Sure, he focuses on his image but that's just politics, you want your supporters to love you. Admiration of Populace = Greater Influence. That's just the name of the game

DrunkenMage said:

Elisif and her parade, what about Ulfric and his fl*ffing fancy sword.

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The problem I wanted to point out with her parade is that she lacked the foresight to see a possible assassination attempt, not that she would walk amongst her people. That's fairly common practice amongst the Jarls.

DrunkenMage said:

It would be.

"You know that I support the Empire," - Bryling to her lover in secret.

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Probably only saying it so he doesn't leave her. They don't call him Firebeard for nothing. Oh well, I'll forgive her ignorance. She hasn't tasted Ulfric's sword yet.[/QUOTE]

TheQahnaarin said:

The scales were tipped when Skyrim joined.

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Skyrim joined when Alessia was mounting the final major offensive.

TheQahnaarin said:

Talos. You know, the guy from Skyrim.

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So we ignore the first two Imperial Dragonborn Dynasties?

TheQahnaarin said:

Skyrim, mostly.

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While many Nords are part of the Imperial Army, they don't make up a majority. The Legions are filled with all races.

TheQahnaarin said:

Except Cyrodiil would be a worthless jungle if not for Tiber, and therefore if not for Skyrim.

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No it wouldn't. Bethesda retconned that. New lore now shows that information was false.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Yeah, and Elisif hates Ulfric, sure he made a good move in preserving his rep. that doesn't mean that politically it's going to do him any favors.

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"Because killing her would yield no political advantage. By leaving Elisif alive, Ulfric completes the separation of the Empire and Skyrim. With Ulfric's troops here, Elisif will be forced to support his bid for High King. He secures the position and appears above reproach. What's more, Ulfric's refusal to execute his slain enemy's wife will be portrayed as the ultimate act of compassion. Hmph. It's genius, really."

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

You know full well the ONLY reason he doesn't join right up with the Stormcloaks is because of his rivalry with Ulfric.

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No. If that were the case, he would have sided with the Imperials a long time ago.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I'm sorry do we know she's a seer? All I see is a senile old women whose children want to make her twilight years acceptable.

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"The Divines reveal things to me at times, yes. I do not hide this. It is a gift. Anyone who believes otherwise does not and cannot understand it."

She's a Mystic. The entire family have the visions, they're not the only ones. Sissel a child in Rorikstead has visions of Paarthy.

Much like your Dragonblood, a gift or a curse. Fighting for Talos is pointless, if you condemn and shun what you do not understand.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Well to be fair, you'd be pretty grouchy too if you lived in Morthal, probably the worst city in Skyrim, and then had a decrepit old cook for a jarl.

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If I was a backwards Nordic peasant, probably.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

First off, I never said there was anything wrong with her acting like royalty when she is, there isn't just like there's nothing wrong with Ulfric wanting a sword to symbolize his place as High King. Second, it's not all about that. Sure, he focuses on his image but that's just politics, you want your supporters to love you. Admiration of Populace = Greater Influence. That's just the name of the game

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Haha, he does politics like the Nibenese. Hiding behind symbols... Look at High Kings of old, were they loved because of how they dressed or because they made their swords look special? No. He focuses on his image either because he's obsessed with only himself, or he's ashamed of himself and tries to be worthy in the eyes of his dead father.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d1e0e

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

The problem I wanted to point out with her parade is that she lacked the foresight to see a possible assassination attempt, not that she would walk amongst her people. That's fairly common practice amongst the Jarls.

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Many Jarls aren't walking amongst their people due to the war. Except Balgruuf and Vignar. Shame Skald won't take a stroll, he wouldn't be missed.