Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Sounds a little hypocritical if you ask me. :)
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
What about Ulfric who instantly became Jarl after his father died during his incarceration? He had no experience being a Jarl. He wasn't even in Windhelm because he was training to become a Greybeard. Yet to you Ulfric, who had no experience as or with nobility/Jarlship, became this huge figure and is without a doubt destined to be High King. Who's to say that Elisif can't do the same?

Not to mention, he was broken by the Thalmor and remade. Allowed to escape, and has only won a single battle (Markarth). This man who was outsmarted, caught off guard in his own homeland/native Hold and nearly executed by a foreign General who has never been there, commanding a very limited force, with a huge supply problem... All within a few short months of his arrival.

Yet Ulfric is going to lead them against a superior Military force, one that can match the highly trained Legions and not the piss poor militia they're currently fighting in a stalemate (but still can't gain any upperhand even after a Dragon has wiped out a large garrison of them). Did Nord IQ's drop in the last Era? This great warrior who fought rebel Reachmen with no training or good equipment (before they became Forsworn and retook up the old ways to make them tougher). Who so honorably defeated a boy king with little martial ability and an old man bleeding out on the ground with the aid of two other warriors. Only thing great about him is his ego, dressing up his Officers to emulate his banner/daddy.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
What about Ulfric who instantly became Jarl after his father died during his incarceration? He had no experience being a Jarl. He wasn't even in Windhelm because he was training to become a Greybeard. Yet to you Ulfric, who had no experience as or with nobility/Jarlship, became this huge figure and is without a doubt destined to be High King. Who's to say that Elisif can't do the same?

The people in his hold gave him the jarlship after he returned home from prison. We are discussing who would become a good ruler of Skyrim. I'm sure Elisif would make a great Jarl, just not a great Queen right now. She will get her experience in leadership by ruling Solitude for a while.

Ulfric has a pretty intensive background whereas Elisif nearly has none that she can brag about. Seriously if Ulfric and Elisif were going to have a presidential election debate against once and another... Who do you think would win?
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Not to mention, he was broken by the Thalmor and remade. Allowed to escape, and has only won a single battle (Markarth). This man who was outsmarted, caught off guard in his own homeland/native Hold and nearly executed by a foreign General who has never been there, commanding a very limited force, with a huge supply problem... All within a few short months of his arrival.

Yet Ulfric is going to lead them against a superior Military force, one that can match the highly trained Legions and not the piss poor militia they're currently fighting in a stalemate (but still can't gain any upperhand even after a Dragon has wiped out a large garrison of them). Did Nord IQ's drop in the last Era? This great warrior who fought rebel Reachmen with no training or good equipment (before they became Forsworn and retook up the old ways to make them tougher). Who so honorably defeated a boy king with little martial ability and an old man bleeding out on the ground with the aid of two other warriors. Only thing great about him is his ego, dressing up his Officers to emulate his banner/daddy.

Anyone can be broken if they were being tortured enough. I wonder if Elisif would of done the same if she was in the same position as Ulfric was at the time. The Thalmor aren't the friendly type as they think of new ideas for torturing people in a way to make them talk.

Yeah pat yourself over the shoulders... The Imperials captured Ulfric and was carting him off to Helgan to be executed... Funny how they didn't executed Ulfric first. They were going to do him last. He ended up escaping after a dragon attack. I guess the Imperials don't have such a high IQ after all. Funny how you call Nords dumb yet the Imperials really showed themselves. Good job Imperials... GOOD JOB!
 

Mr Forz

I'm helping. Mostly.
Eeeh. I wouldn't try to judge someone's IQ just because he failed to predict that a flying monstrousity that hasn't been seen since the second era would make its first appearance by sacking Helgen.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Actually, it does say he is sent in to fix difficult areas. So yes, he is a "go to guy".

Thalmor are not just "better". A Steel Sword is "better" than an iron sword. An Elven Sword is "Superior". Different meaning(s) entirely.

Thalmor wealth isn't a strong point? Are you serious? Go play Civ 3 or 4 or perhaps 5 even... notice ALL the gold you make from cities along the coast or rivers. Think about this. Now go look at a map of Alinor.... then consider the entire Dominion. Dominion has mad bank son.

"You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team."

Really? And you decided this on your own. Wonderful. CIA would disagree with you on this. Furthermore, Thalmor already proved they can do this with the Empire. Obviously, if you had indeed read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak, you would understand there are several reason for the Thalmor interaction(s) in Skyrim.

Please, if you hate the Thalmor, I can understand that. Don't pretend however to know us when you don't. Most users on here who discuss the Thalmor try and fit us into some general dark persona, like you're in the water pretending to swim, walking along the rocky coast. Thar be Sharks in them waters laddie.

~

Now, I have been away dealing with several matters and missed several of your earlier points.

The reason I'm still partial to the Empire is because they listen. They are repentant and very 'real' about their situation.

No I don't approve of Talos worship however, the Empire has admitted it was wrong and has basically apologized for the irrational actions of Tiber Septim.

I have no problem with the Empire. I expect the Empire will bounce back and challenge us again, but at least they are honest.

Stormcloaks however, refuse to see things for what they are. You disregard facts, you twist failures into success. You refuse to see the cause for what it is, blaming the ills of your cause and those of Ulfric solely on the Empire itself, or the Thalmor. If you cannot accept responsibility, you cannot lead.

What is Freedom if you can't allow others to be different than yourself? How long will a society be "Free" when it's members are not allowed to think differently, to allow their minds to evolve outside the "cause"? What good is "Freedom" from the Empire when you persecute and deny Freedoms to others who are not of the Empire?

Yeah, this is indeed a noble member of the Thalmor expressing these thoughts... but then again I'm not a "Freedom Fighter". I wear a black hat and don't pretend it's white.

A go to guy. Not THE go to guy.

It's that the Dominion chose to isolate themselves. They were the North Korea of Tamriel for a while there. Also the Empire controls the economy for the most part. They won't make it easy on the Dominion. Self-sufficient? Definitely. But overflowing with coin, there's not a lot of evidence toward that. You can have all the water surrounding you in the world, but if no one wants to trade with you and you don't want to trade with anyone, that doesn't make for a strong economy.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize medieval espionage taking place on the other side of the world was as effective as modern day high tech intelligence networks. The Thalmor didn't didn't defeat the Empire with espionage, they invaded. Their information was off, too apparantly, as they over-estimated the Legions.

Their reason is to continue the war, and Mage and I are talking about if Skyrim were to be independent, so the dossier is irrelevant. Try to be familiar with the context next time.

General dark persona? I'd say conducting a purging of your homeland, instigating the most destructive war in history and torturing countless men and women over beliefs that have no direct impact on you would fit "dark". Dunno about you.

So you actually are buying the Empire giving up Talos? Cough* Rikke *cough. Cough* Balgruuf *cough. Cough* Torygg *cough. It's sort of funny, when you think about it, the Thalmor are trying to conquer the world mostly because they're still bitter about Talos steamrolling Alinor. Mostly sad, but a little funny.

Don't get upset because people are ignorant about the Thalmor if you're going to be the same way about the Stormcloaks. Whose fault is it their most treasured god has been outlawed, and whose fault is it your Thalmor are dragging people off for torture? Whose fault is it an entire Nordic generation has been scarred mentally and physically by the Great War? Am I missing something? Are those all the Stormcloak's fault, and we're all being unreasonable for blaming the Empire and Dominion?

That last bit absolutely screams hypocrisy. Where in hell are you getting this idea Ulfric is some kind of dictator? How is any Emporer (or any ruler who ever lived on Tamriel) any less of a dictator? If your Altmer can rule Alinor the way they see fit, how can you say the Nords don't also have that right to Skyrim?

P.S. Praise Talos.


I can't stand this new commenting system. It's crap like almost everything else nowadays.

Anyways, no difference. Gen Tully is an Imperial General and I know enough about the military to say being a General is very exclusive honor which few ever receive. For the Empire to assign him by name, he is the go to guy for resolving Civil disputes. His record speaks for itself although perhaps there are other Generals as well with different roles. Also, killing Gen Tully in the end for the Stormcloaks alternative universe and not ransoming him off or what have you was very naive.

Hahaha here we go. I know that in the past Stormcloaks have used World History *frequently* to justify almost anything. Btw - That was a good move on the part of Rimfaxe to throw the Timeline at me, that is a "superior" tactic ;) Although it really burns the Stormcloaks more than anything else. Now, it doesn't matter if this is a "Medieval Times" scenario because there was just as much intrigue and back-stabbing and espionage and pl*ps going down back then as is now. No, the technology was different however intent and purpose was same. Go read about the "French Revolution" or "American Revolution" or how Attila the Hun died to learn more. Just because we are in the post modern age doesn't mean the hearts of men have changed drastically. The goal is always the same, just the methods are different or morphed if you will.

It's also painfully obvious you ignored the other side to Elenwen's parties. I'm not taking up for the Empire however Mage has discussed this to some length before, what with the Thalmor's many business partners. Big business doesn't care how Fascist or Nationalist you are they are in it to make money and rightfully so. Not everyone is over-joyed about the Thalmor but then again, judging by what we see during the Embassy party, quality of Thalmor gear and training and location of the Dominion, it's *abundantly* and *undeniably* clear the Dominion is very wealthy. They invaded the Empire for @#$% sake. The last person to do that from Oblivion was a Dark Elf Arch Mage who himself was LOADED with coin. But go ahead, yes underestimate us. Please.

As far as the Thalmor's invasion, yes they screwed that up. Well, there was so much red meat in the water the sharks tired themselves out trying to chew it down. That bonehead abandoned his objectives and took on too much. Became greedy. And while that mistake won't be repeated, now the Empire is alerted to our intentions. A wasted opportunity though it does have a "Silver" lining. :)

We don't discuss these so-called "purges" with outsiders. That's a family matter.

As for the Empire giving up Talos, yes I buy it. Well, the Empire graciously permitted the Justiciars access to certain parts of the Empire to ensure the ban on Talos worship is being carried out effectively. The Emperor is after all, a man of his word and obeys his Elven Masters well. Elenwen herself says she hopes once the Stormcloaks realize what is best for Tamriel they will stop fighting. Furthermore, if you *cough* *cough* believe the Empire isn't obeying the Thalmor, then you are a hypocrite for murdering them. A house divided against itself won't stand. By fighting against the Imperial you mentioned, you are in affect serving us *cough*. So by your own admission you are willing to cooperate with the Thalmor as long as Ulfric gets everything he wants. You're a tool. How sad.

As for Tiber Septim's invasion, you can laugh all the way to Skyrim and back, Justiciar hit squads and sweep teams are carrying out justice against this juvenile and wicked Talos cult. Your hills run red with the blood of these "beasts" while their lands and possessions are forfeit to the Dominion. Shrines to the false God Talos are smashed and pillaged, fit for a trash dump, nothing more. The gold idols and assorted contraband we take from these sites are melted down or sold to pay the Dominion reparations for Septim's crimes.

Smile and dress warmly. The Dominion is here to stay and one way or another... man and Empire will all once again serve the Dominion. So remember, the Dominion is working hard day and night to restore the Empire of Tamriel as it was, as it was meant to be. The values of our past will become the foundations of our future. All you need, is a little patience, a little faith. Til next time this is Justiciar Ancano, signing off.

This won't go anywhere. A Thalmor and Stormcloak are polar opposites, and this will just descend into petty jabs at one another with no real progress. So much hypocrisy in there I don't even know where to start anyway. Anyway, make sure you're not doing too much underestimating yourself my friend.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Did Nord IQ's drop in the last Era?

Other races seem to think so.

Well, Golldir, I'm impressed. I know what trouble you Nords have with literacy, those big words must put such a strain on your tiny brains.

Ulfric is the only reason I may start to believe in Elven superiority.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Doesn't say he's the "go to guy" for restoring order. Plenty of places within the Empire that would've needed "fixing" within Tullius' career. He couldn't have handled them all.

He was sent at the personal request of the Emperor himself. Not by the Grand Marshal of the Imperial Legion.

They know the war can't continue forever. And if they openly mock the Empire right in front of prominent Imperials I don't see them taking an independent Skyrim seriously.

Of course the Thalmor mock the Empire, they go out of their way to make the Empire look as bad as possible. They speak positively about the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor would take an independent Skyrim seriously. They're not the kind to ignore a nation preparing to invade them.

Dominion's strong point isn't wealth. And bandits will take whatever the Dominion gives them and head home. I've read the Forsworn hate the Dominion as well, so they probably wouldn't ally. And an independent Skyrim will see the defeat of the Forsworn as something that needs to be dealt with.

The Dominion's strength is considerable wealth, enough wealth to make the EETC mention it. The bandits would take what the Dominion gives and simply leave? Really? Funny how insurgent groups were being funded by the Thalmor in Cyrodiil. Show me where the Forsworn hate the Dominion? They hate the Nords.

You can't bring down a country with espionage alone. And if the Dominion is snooping around Skyrim (a costly, impractical and difficult mission with little to gain) it's wasting time it could be spending in Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Guess the Stormcloaks take one for the team.

They did it in Summerset Isle and Valenwood. They caused a Civil War in Skyrim that tears it apart and weakened the strongest nation in the Empire to the point where they can barely keep bandits in check.

The Dominion is already snooping around in Skyrim, costs mean nothing to them. Lives mean nothing to them. They're masters at cloak and dagger, and keeping Skyrim weak is never impractical. They are spending in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell probably too. In the Novels they were actively causing disruptions in Cyrodiil, Elsweyr & Hammerfell + fighting Imperial espionage/rebel forces in Valenwood. Four provinces at once, yet it is suddenly costly and impractical to do less than that? pl***, you even come across them on the island that is in Morrowind territory.

They won't if the Empire's available. Theyll expect as much if the Empire just forcibly consolidated their rule over them. Besides, isn't that what the Empire provides? Financial security? Unfortunately if Motierre is trying to reorganize everything and prepare for the next Great War, and probably have to pay everyone off, and some Jarl walks up and asks for money there's not a chance in Oblivion he'll get it. Even worse chances if you say they'll make a scapegoat of the Nords for Mede's and Vici's deaths.

The Empire hasn't paid anything in the Civil War, Tullius is using Western Skyrim for all of the war effort. Much to the upset of Solitude's Court. There are many parts of the Empire that do different jobs, a Jarl isn't simply going to walk up to the Elder Council hat in hand. They're given money, they enjoy free trade and get resources for next to nothing.

Motierre is going to reorganize everything? In what way? The Empire has procedures for when an Emperor dies. That hasn't changed in thousands of years. The Stormcloaks/Thalmor make a scapegoat. Since if Mede/Vici die due to the war, and the Empire believe the Thalmor are behind the war...

The Nord view was to keep fighting. Something that is often shown to have been possible. And you don't know Titus did it for the good of the Empire. He walked right into the Thalmor's trap of disuniting the Empire, something that should've been fairly obvious when he agreed to it, so I think it was a bit more self-serving.

It is mentioned why Titus did what he did. He felt it was needed to secure peace so the decimated Imperial forces could regather strength.

Same can be said of Cyrodiil, with all the rioting breaking out recently. There are bandits in every province, who's to say while the Empire is invading the Dominion Cyrodiil doesn't fall into chaos because of the lack of guards? Give Skyrim a chance to get organized, no one has to go to Alinor right away.

A) Cyrodiil didn't just have a Civil War.
B) Cyrodiil didn't just get ravaged by Dragons.
C) Cyrodiil has had 26 years, and isn't guarded by Militia of a single ethnic group, from one side of the province.

That is your problem. Skyrim needs a chance, they need time. We're out of time. The Dominion are already mustering their forces, the peace won't last long after Mede is gone.

And going through a massive leadership reorganization won't make it any easier to go to war. Whatever problems there were in Cyrodiil will probably resurface, if they even went away in the first place.

Please, Tiber went to war after his Emperor and all his politicians were assassinated. You make out some massive leadership reorganization, the Empire doesn't fall anytime an Emperor dies. The Empire follows procedures and political traditions in the event an Emperor dies, and succession is stalled. With or without an heir, the Elder Counvil still rules until they decide to crown the heir, or install a new Dynasty or the High Chancellor takes over.

You've just proven my point. Skyrim and Cyrodiil aren't the inseparable friends they once were, and neither will be too sorry to see the other go.

You don't need to be friends to need each other. Skyrim and Cyrodiil don't always see eye to eye, but together they keep mankind the dominant race on Tamriel.

This: "The Thalmor were just better."

The Empire of the Fourth Era is, for whatever reason, unable to combat the Thalmor.

The Empire of the Third Era would have been unable to combat the Thalmor at first. They're devious and good at what they do, they caught the Empire off guard time after time. They smashed the Blades without effort. Least the Mede's were smart enough to create the Penitus Oculatus as a back up.

Stormcloaks (pretty much) = Nords. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly Skyrim looks a lot more unified.
"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause."

Every day more join the Legion too. Stormcloaks are not all Nords, they're made up of mainly Nords, but they are not all of Skyrim. Many Nords are part of the Imperial army still. Take away all the Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaries.. And you're left with Nords fighting Nords. All the other races in the Legion, is what makls them excel. It will take more than Nords to stop the Aldmeri Dominion, especially backwards xenophobic ones.

Hammerfell would accept peace that didn't so blatantly use them to pay for it.

Hammerfell should pay for it, their fault the Dominion got so far in Hammerfell in the first place, if they weren't fighting amongst themselves, maybe things would have turned out differently. If it wasn't for the Empire, the Dominion would have probably controlled more of Hammerfell. It was the Legions that left the Aldmeri too weakend in Hammerfell, it was the Legion veterans who were left behind that formed the core of the army that drove them back. It was Cyrodilic, Nordic and Breton blood that weakened the Dominion to allow the Redguards to get their treaty.

And Tullius will be running the show anyway, so Elisif's potential would never be seen.

Tullius is only in charge until the Moot meets.

Ok, so Tullius is the "go to guy" but again what else would he be doing other than Skyrim?

Speaking positively about the Stormcloaks ties into making the Empire look bad. Hammerfell could be just as likely to invade them.

Even with an entire embassy in Skyrim and free reign to do as they please: "Our forces are stretched thin enough as it is, and I have better missions - better agents - to assign them to." I just don't see them having a continued presence in Skyrim if they became independent.

I don't see where all this wealth is coming from. Shouldn't the all financially powerful Empire be trying to make it hard on the Dominion economy? Anyways as for the Forsworn not liking the Dominion, I finally found it again on UESP: "They directly oppose all other major political groups active in the Reach, including the Thalmor." The source just says "events of Skyrim" so I'm not really sure what they get it from exactly but there it is.

All of those countries border the Dominion, and one of which wasn't even an Imperial province any more. Skyrim is on the other side of the world and the next war is closer than ever. On Solsthiem they are at their worst you'll ever see. They can't break a simple blacksmith, and then you can intimidate them into abandoning their mission and going home. They're over extending themselves.

If they just fought their asses off to keep themselves a part of an Empire, don't you think they'll be expecting some money from them? Especially if they used all their resources on the war effort.
I'm saying the Jarls will be lucky to get any money from the Empire at all. The Empire isn't prioritizing rebuilding Skyrim.

So you think a portion of the Elder Council went through all that trouble of hiring the Dark Brotherhood just to speed up succession?

Mentioned by who? It's just as possible he did it to hold on to the throne. Why else would he agree to the same terms from the start of the war?

So there's still unrest in Cyrodiil, and a dead Emporer won't cheer everyone up. I don't see Cyrodiil being at peace either.

Tiber had massive military support, and Cuhlecain already had everything in place for him to take over. Motierre wants change, and the Legions are still probably not in good condition. And Tiber had almost full support of Skyrim.

You spoke of the symbolic relationship of Skyrim and Cyrodiil, that just isn't recognized by anyone anymore.

Mede's don't even come close to what the Septims could do. And considering Tiber actually destroyed the first incarnation of the Thalmor...

I don't know why you keep coming back to the Penitus Oculatus. No success against Thalmor, no success defending Titus II.

Take away Imperial, Breton, Redguard and Elven Legionaires and suddenly you've hardly any Nords against a whole lot of Nords. It was backward, xenophobic Nords that destroyed the Falmer race and saved the Imperials from slavery.

Look at the Southern coast of Hammerfell. Do you realize how many people they'd be putting at the mercy of the Dominion? It was the Redguard's distraction that kept Cyrodiil from being overrun.

And if Elisif wins she'll still be under his influence.
 
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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
A war you Stormcloaks started. Had he been a Nord, and if it were the Imperials who had burnt him alive. You lot would be going on and on about it.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius
Feh, "selfish ambitions", righteous beliefs in Independence more like
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
I'm sure Elisif would make a great Jarl, just not a great Queen right now. She will get her experience in leadership by ruling Solitude for a while.
Sorry brother, but that bimbo has the combined intelligence of two idiot contestants from the Miss America pageant

Ulfric has a pretty intensive background whereas Elisif nearly has none that she can brag about. Seriously if Ulfric and Elisif were going to have a presidential election debate against once and another... Who do you think would win?
Certainly not the one who thought sending a whole detachment of guards to deal with a rumor in some cave was a good idea
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I'm sure Elisif would make a great Jarl, just not a great Queen right now. She will get her experience in leadership by ruling Solitude for a while.
Sorry brother, but that bimbo has the combined intelligence of two idiot contestants from the Miss America pageant

I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt over here :)

Certainly not the one who thought sending a whole detachment of guards to deal with a rumor in some cave was a good idea


comment_4JOijyXF1ISu4dLmimVsV30nUmVWNUQ2.gif
 

Mr Forz

I'm helping. Mostly.
Feh, "selfish ambitions", righteous beliefs in Independence more like

If a part of Skyrim wants the independance that doesn't make it legitimate to attempt to murder your way to the top.

Honestly, I completly understand the Nord paranoia, and the cause for the rebellion is true. There's an injustice. I'd even join it for the sake of Skyrim's identity.
However, on the side of the Empire I'm seeing Nords capable of seeing and understanding the bigger picture about the Great War and willing to make sacrifices to get a much larger part of things to remain intact in the future, when the Great War 2.0 will strike again. On the other side I'm seeing a man looking for the throne and trying to hide behind as many Nord symbols as possible to attract the mass to his command and embracing the crudest stereotypes (Mages, extreme bigotry toward any Elves) believing it's also part of the Nord identity.

A citizen faithful to the Empire can be called a puppet, but following that man doesn't make you a "True Nord", just a sheep, really.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
I'm sure Elisif would make a great Jarl, just not a great Queen right now. She will get her experience in leadership by ruling Solitude for a while.
Sorry brother, but that bimbo has the combined intelligence of two idiot contestants from the Miss America pageantq

I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt over here :)
Understandable, I suppose. I'm a bit more stubborn

Certainly not the one who thought sending a whole detachment of guards to deal with a rumor in some cave was a good idea

I can't stop laughing like a tard at laughing Putin! lol
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
If a part of Skyrim wants the independence that doesn't make it legitimate to attempt to murder your way to the top.
Murder? is that what it's called now? I suppose it was murder when the Argonians killed their slavemasters during the events of the Red Year? Or how about when Ysgramor killed the Elves who ruthlessly massacred the Nords at Sarthaal?

However, on the side of the Empire I'm seeing Nords capable of seeing and understanding the bigger picture about the Great War and willing to make sacrifices to get a much larger part of things to remain intact in the future, when the Great War 2.0 will strike again.
I highly doubt those Nords are capable of understanding that. As I'm sure you are well aware, Nords by nature, are Stubborn and Prideful. Some are stubborn and prideful about one thing, others are stubborn and prideful about another. Usually, it ends in a tavern brawl and a smashed nose from the loser. The only difference NOW is that it ends in the horrors of war and the memories of such horrors. Noe back to the point at hand, The Nords on the Imperial side are prideful of their Imperial Legacy and too stubborn to change their views. However, The Nords on the side of Ulfric Stormcloak are prideful of their Nordic heritage and too stubborn to give it up. Very few Nords, if any, are fighting for the Empire because they think that it's a wiser decision to keep Skyrim and the Empire together. They just don't wan't things to change. Nords hate change.

On the other side I'm seeing a man looking for the throne and trying to hide behind as many Nord symbols as possible to attract the mass to his command and embracing the crudest stereotypes (Mages, extreme bigotry toward any Elves) believing it's also part of the Nord identity.
1.) Ulfric Stormcloak, while indeed fighting to be the High King of Skyrim, fights for a plethora of other reasons. Including the reinstatement of Talos worship and old Nordic traditons
2.) He has no real hatred towards any elves, as he's quite willing to allow one into his service.
3.) If Hiding behind Nordic symbols include embracing Nordic Traditions to forma better Skyrim, then I suppose he is.

A citizen faithful to the Empire can be called a puppet, but following that man doesn't make you a "True Nord", just a sheep, really.
I don't follow "that man" because I'm a mere sheep who needs a Shepard. I follow Ulfric Stormcloak into battle, because I believe that Nordic tradition was stomped on by the Empire when they signed that damned "treaty." I follow him because I believe him when he says with tears in his eyes:

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."-Ulfric Stormcloak

I fight for him because I believe he is the true High King of Skyrim and because I am a Nord who believes that Nord land should be ruled by Nords, and not dictated by a goddamn Emperor hundreds of miles away! I fight because I am enraged ravenously by those damn diplomats who thought sacrificing Skyrim would come without consequences, and by those Witch elves from the west who claim they know Skyrim better than the Nords! Now I ask you, promoter of the "lesser of two evils", does this make me a sheep, or does it make me a man who wants whats right!?
 
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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Shame you don't have the true High Queen of Skyrim.

800px-SR-npc-Brina_Merilis_03.jpg
Don't be so sure of her loyalty. She's no patron of the Empire I assure you.

Prey waits. She'll learn in the role, and with the Holds being largely independent her mistakes have limited reach. Most of Skyrim's rulers didn't have experience, many died within short years. She has some time to learn, before the next war breaks out. Even then, she isn't going to be leading troops into battle.
I don't see why you put so much faith into a grieving widow, but you do you, friend.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Anyone can be broken if they were being tortured enough. I wonder if Elisif would of done the same if she was in the same position as Ulfric was at the time. The Thalmor aren't the friendly type as they think of new ideas for torturing people in a way to make them talk.

Anyone can be broken, yes. Except Elisif isn't, Ulfric was. His state of mind is questionable.

Yeah pat yourself over the shoulders... The Imperials captured Ulfric and was carting him off to Helgan to be executed... Funny how they didn't executed Ulfric first. They were going to do him last. He ended up escaping after a dragon attack. I guess the Imperials don't have such a high IQ after all. Funny how you call Nords dumb yet the Imperials really showed themselves. Good job Imperials... GOOD JOB!

Considering under extreme pressure the Legion's response was to get the towns people to safety. You even come across a Legionary trying to aid a wounded civilian (Though he can't, he mentions the wounds are too deep and he can't stop the blood). I say they really did show themselves, they held out a defense to allow as many to escape as they could.

Nice that Ulfric shut the door on any civilians or wounded. I thought you Nords had honor, there is no honor to be had cowering behind a closed door while people are out there fighting and dying.

Don't worry though, I'm sure your Thalmor Masters made sure Ulfric made it back to Windhelm unharmed.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Considering under extreme pressure the Legion's response was to get the towns people to safety. You even come across a Legionary trying to aid a wounded civilian (Though he can't, he mentions the wounds are too deep and he can't stop the blood). I say they really did show themselves, they held out a defense to allow as many to escape as they could.
Yes, how commendable of the Imperials to torture people under the noses of the townspeople. Also, what do you expect the Stormcloaks to do with no weapons? Be meatshields futilely for the Imperial supporters, who cursed their name not 5 minutes prior so that the Harbigner of the End Times can eat and scorch them first? Sorry, but I don't see that working out well, not to mention that Imperials, or at least Imperialized Nords, have no real history with the Dragons, and thus, don't fear them quite as much.

Don't worry though, I'm sure your Thalmor Masters made sure Ulfric made it back to Windhelm unharmed.
Oh yes, and I'm sure while you were sucking their balls and licking their boots before the execution, they were quite gentle with you,
You damn Imperial milkdrinker.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
What about Ulfric who instantly became Jarl after his father died during his incarceration? He had no experience being a Jarl. He wasn't even in Windhelm because he was training to become a Greybeard. Yet to you Ulfric, who had no experience as or with nobility/Jarlship, became this huge figure and is without a doubt destined to be High King. Who's to say that Elisif can't do the same?

The people in his hold gave him the jarlship after he returned home from prison. We are discussing who would become a good ruler of Skyrim. I'm sure Elisif would make a great Jarl, just not a great Queen right now. She will get her experience in leadership by ruling Solitude for a while.

Ulfric has a pretty intensive background whereas Elisif nearly has none that she can brag about. Seriously if Ulfric and Elisif were going to have a presidential election debate against once and another... Who do you think would win?
Actually, Ulfric was forced to the throne. Not that he or anyone else would deny free power...;)

So someone who caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people is by far a better ruler than someone who constantly tried to make their citizens safe? Who would win a presidential election? Probably the person who would take extra, sometimes over Protection of their citizens rather than the person would choose to kill everyone to become it.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Anyone can be broken if they were being tortured enough. I wonder if Elisif would of done the same if she was in the same position as Ulfric was at the time. The Thalmor aren't the friendly type as they think of new ideas for torturing people in a way to make them talk.

Anyone can be broken, yes. Except Elisif isn't, Ulfric was. His state of mind is questionable.

Yeah pat yourself over the shoulders... The Imperials captured Ulfric and was carting him off to Helgan to be executed... Funny how they didn't executed Ulfric first. They were going to do him last. He ended up escaping after a dragon attack. I guess the Imperials don't have such a high IQ after all. Funny how you call Nords dumb yet the Imperials really showed themselves. Good job Imperials... GOOD JOB!

Considering under extreme pressure the Legion's response was to get the towns people to safety. You even come across a Legionary trying to aid a wounded civilian (Though he can't, he mentions the wounds are too deep and he can't stop the blood). I say they really did show themselves, they held out a defense to allow as many to escape as they could.

Nice that Ulfric shut the door on any civilians or wounded. I thought you Nords had honor, there is no honor to be had cowering behind a closed door while people are out there fighting and dying.

Don't worry though, I'm sure your Thalmor Masters made sure Ulfric made it back to Windhelm unharmed.
Ouch! You just hit them right were it hurts, their pride....
 

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