Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Wasn't Red Mountain deactivated by the Nerevarine? I don't know exactly what a deactivated tower can do, but I'd guess that at that point Red Mountain was just a volcano. And maybe you've solved the time problem, but what about the space? Why Winterhold? Why wasn't Solstheim, Blacklight, Eastmarch or Dawnstar effected?


Considering Solstheim is smothered in Ash, Ash spawn, barely survivable to the point only one of the Great Houses bothers with it kinda is because of Red Mountain.

We don't know if Blacklight has been affected or not. It's only been briefly mentioned.

Hell, all of Morrowind is in turmoil. Once Red Mountain erupted, the Argonians used the chance to attack. Smart move on their part.

Eastmarch took in refugees that are now outcasts by stormcloaks.

Dawnstar is a bit out there, even for waves to reach out that far. But that's just my interpretation of the situation.

I meant the earthquake/tidal waves/tsunami that sunk Winterhold more than a century after the eruption. Why didn't the Collapse (not the original eruption) effect the other areas I mentioned?


Forgot to answer this one from before. The Archmage and I believe some of the other towns folk also say a large part of the college was wiped out too.

Indeed, if you look below the college it looks as if most of it's foundation has been washed away. That college is the only thing left standing, it was part of a larger campus they had setup in Winterhold. Apparently, they had much of their history houses there among other things.

Over time, the College has been built up into what we see today, however 300 and some odd years ago things were different.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Crossing the Alik'r was very hard on both armies, and it left the Dominion too weak to go any further. When the Redguards pushed back, they had to cross it again, which was a huge disaster. I'm no military tactician, I'm not gonna sit here and plan out the Dominion's entire invasion plan, but if they hadn't overestimated the Empire, I'm sure they could've cooked something up.

No. Crossing the Alik'r was hard on the Legions due to the "March of Thirst" they were retreating without proper supplies. What left the Dominion too weakened wasn't the desert it was Decianus smashing them outside of Skaven. Then when they pushed back by the discharged Legionaries, it was the harrassing attacks by Alik'r Warriors that caused heavy losses.

The Dominion's invasion plan would have worked, if they didn't try for Cyrodiil.

Obviously for an army of thousands, I was speaking more for a smaller division of an army. My point is, the Stormcloaks have healers, who have knowledge of the restoration school, who have the potential to learn wards. Obviously magic wouldn't be the Stormcloaks strong point, but they do meet the bare-minimum for it, in my opinion.

While up against the magic using army of the Aldmeri Dominion. Bare-minimum won't cut it, one of the Dominion Battlemages wiped out entire villages.

No, but they were the private army of a Jarl of pretty important hold. I'm sure at that point people were starting to realize what was coming, and at least picked who they were gonna side with, even if they aren't sending out troops yet.

So? Jarls bicker all the time, doesn't mean all out war. They're Nords, raiding other Holds and having small skirmishes is probably a sport to them or at least a national pastime.

Dialogue suggests no one saw it coming. Unless you have some hidden source suggesting everyone knew or was realizing.

The government of Skyrim hadnt joined yet, and I'd imagine Septim put someone he liked a little more on the throne when it was over. Considering they liked Tiber so much, Skyrim probably didn't push too hard for anything that put them on level with Morrowind or Hammerfell.

Skyrim sided with Tiber before he even took the Imperial City. Joined with his Colovian forces. Tiber could not have put someone else on the throne of Skyrim, unless whoever was on the throne was killed and their entire family killed. Then what? He has one ruler he liked a little more? What about the heir, or if the heir was to die, the next heir, or maybe a cousin in the event a direct heir dies. That is why the Empire supported a republic in Hammerfell. Just because you like one guy, doesn't mean the rest of his family will align with Imperial interests. Septim's had a Civil War, and look at the Mede Dynasty, Titus had a brother.. He wasn't trusted in the slightest and was kept under watch by the Penitus Oculatus.

Yes, I have no idea how Nordic governments work because I recognize it would be better to have an actual King who's more than just a figurehead.

Welcome to a land of warriors. Stewards rule the Holds, they do the business, the trade, pay people, get supplies, settle disputes. The Jarl awards a title, leads warriors sometimes, acts as a judge.

They prefer eating and getting drunk, to signing all these papers, looking at numbers.

The Companions are essentially mercanaries, no Atmoran army came over. Skyrim being a territory of Atmora was more of an acknowledgement than anything. Atmora sounds like it was way too weakened to govern anything on the other side of the world.

No. The Comanions are Mercenaries now. They were an invading conquering army, who founded some settlements. Yes, Atmora sounds like it was too weakened to govern anything, because they had one Civil War.

I guess so, because the Legions been in crap-condition since the Oblivion crisis.

"The tenacity of the Imperial Legion is legendary. We need to be ready for them." - Jod

"I served in the Great War against the Thalmor. I remember how bravely a Legionnaire can fight." - Jod

No Aldmeri soil was touched during the war. While the Empire has to rebuild everything, the Dominion just has to replenish their armies.

Because wars are free right? Aldmeri land doesn't need to be touched by battle to get affected by war. Rebuilding structures isn't that bad, still have to regain forces and arm them for war.

High Rock stronger than Skyrim? Debatable.

A) High Rock wasn't ravaged by Dragons.
B) High Rock wasn't ravaged by Civil War.
C) High Rock isn't protected by farmers and shop keepers with swords and mismatched equipment.
D) While they have well trained Knights and other standing armies, Breton Agents turn tides in war.

Alinor couldn't trade with anyone either but they still managed to form the Dominion. Hammerfell is massive, and have ports with independant merchants coming in from all over.

What? How couldn't Alinor trade with anyone? They weren't enemies with anyone. Trade still happens, Hammerfell is not enemies with the Empire. Only reason to reject trading with Cyrodiil which is the Hub of Tamriel is to throw a hissy fit, a costly one at that. It would ruin many of their merchants to ban trade with the Empire.

That's completely ridiculous, you can't conquer a country with mercanaries. And letting Alinor sit there and regroup while you waste time trying to bring Skyrim back into the fold is insane.

Says who? You telling me mercenaries have never been used to conquer places? They don't need to rule the country, just loot and pillage as they please. Or they move in with a Legion. Put an Imperial Governor in charge. Don't even need to waste time with the Moot like Tullius did, trying to please Jarls.

What is insane would be trying to take Alinor directly after Valenwood and parts of Elsweyr. We don't have a fancy golem like Tiber did.

Not nessacarily a united Empire, but men united. The Ulfric dossier says they don't want an independent Skyrim anymore than they do an Imperial one.

No, they hate what the Empire represents. The actual Empire, not just men united. It is like the anti-christ to them.

The dossier on Ulfric ( I haven't read it in ages, and my net is really slow on these forums, so I can't open it) far as I can remember it mentions Imperial victory would harm their overall position in Skyrim, and that aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed because they wish to avoid a Stormcloak victory also.

Both sides hate the Thalmor, the Civil War is the only thing keep their attention away from the Aldmeri Dominion.

The Empire has also collapsed before and you could say the same of many others. Ulfric survived the Great War, survived Thalmor torture, the siege of Markarth, Imperial incarceration, escaped Solitude, and survived Helgen. I know one man doesn't mean everything, but it's a nice metaphor, don't you think?


It is why we want his head. Kind of like a lucky rabbit foot.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Wasn't Red Mountain deactivated by the Nerevarine? I don't know exactly what a deactivated tower can do, but I'd guess that at that point Red Mountain was just a volcano. And maybe you've solved the time problem, but what about the space? Why Winterhold? Why wasn't Solstheim, Blacklight, Eastmarch or Dawnstar effected?

Perhaps Winterhold being exposed to the sea has something to do with it, Dawnstar and Eastmarch are more sheltered. There isn't any evidence against the College of Winterhold, asides from it still standing. All of Morrowind was effected by Red Mountain going, even Black Marsh. We have no information on Blacklight and Solstheim is still being effected.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Crossing the Alik'r was very hard on both armies, and it left the Dominion too weak to go any further. When the Redguards pushed back, they had to cross it again, which was a huge disaster. I'm no military tactician, I'm not gonna sit here and plan out the Dominion's entire invasion plan, but if they hadn't overestimated the Empire, I'm sure they could've cooked something up.

No. Crossing the Alik'r was hard on the Legions due to the "March of Thirst" they were retreating without proper supplies. What left the Dominion too weakened wasn't the desert it was Decianus smashing them outside of Skaven. Then when they pushed back by the discharged Legionaries, it was the harrassing attacks by Alik'r Warriors that caused heavy losses.

The Dominion's invasion plan would have worked, if they didn't try for Cyrodiil.

Obviously for an army of thousands, I was speaking more for a smaller division of an army. My point is, the Stormcloaks have healers, who have knowledge of the restoration school, who have the potential to learn wards. Obviously magic wouldn't be the Stormcloaks strong point, but they do meet the bare-minimum for it, in my opinion.

While up against the magic using army of the Aldmeri Dominion. Bare-minimum won't cut it, one of the Dominion Battlemages wiped out entire villages.

No, but they were the private army of a Jarl of pretty important hold. I'm sure at that point people were starting to realize what was coming, and at least picked who they were gonna side with, even if they aren't sending out troops yet.

So? Jarls bicker all the time, doesn't mean all out war. They're Nords, raiding other Holds and having small skirmishes is probably a sport to them or at least a national pastime.

Dialogue suggests no one saw it coming. Unless you have some hidden source suggesting everyone knew or was realizing.

The government of Skyrim hadnt joined yet, and I'd imagine Septim put someone he liked a little more on the throne when it was over. Considering they liked Tiber so much, Skyrim probably didn't push too hard for anything that put them on level with Morrowind or Hammerfell.

Skyrim sided with Tiber before he even took the Imperial City. Joined with his Colovian forces. Tiber could not have put someone else on the throne of Skyrim, unless whoever was on the throne was killed and their entire family killed. Then what? He has one ruler he liked a little more? What about the heir, or if the heir was to die, the next heir, or maybe a cousin in the event a direct heir dies. That is why the Empire supported a republic in Hammerfell. Just because you like one guy, doesn't mean the rest of his family will align with Imperial interests. Septim's had a Civil War, and look at the Mede Dynasty, Titus had a brother.. He wasn't trusted in the slightest and was kept under watch by the Penitus Oculatus.

Yes, I have no idea how Nordic governments work because I recognize it would be better to have an actual King who's more than just a figurehead.

Welcome to a land of warriors. Stewards rule the Holds, they do the business, the trade, pay people, get supplies, settle disputes. The Jarl awards a title, leads warriors sometimes, acts as a judge.

They prefer eating and getting drunk, to signing all these papers, looking at numbers.

The Companions are essentially mercanaries, no Atmoran army came over. Skyrim being a territory of Atmora was more of an acknowledgement than anything. Atmora sounds like it was way too weakened to govern anything on the other side of the world.

No. The Comanions are Mercenaries now. They were an invading conquering army, who founded some settlements. Yes, Atmora sounds like it was too weakened to govern anything, because they had one Civil War.

I guess so, because the Legions been in crap-condition since the Oblivion crisis.

"The tenacity of the Imperial Legion is legendary. We need to be ready for them." - Jod

"I served in the Great War against the Thalmor. I remember how bravely a Legionnaire can fight." - Jod

No Aldmeri soil was touched during the war. While the Empire has to rebuild everything, the Dominion just has to replenish their armies.

Because wars are free right? Aldmeri land doesn't need to be touched by battle to get affected by war. Rebuilding structures isn't that bad, still have to regain forces and arm them for war.

High Rock stronger than Skyrim? Debatable.

A) High Rock wasn't ravaged by Dragons.
B) High Rock wasn't ravaged by Civil War.
C) High Rock isn't protected by farmers and shop keepers with swords and mismatched equipment.
D) While they have well trained Knights and other standing armies, Breton Agents turn tides in war.

Alinor couldn't trade with anyone either but they still managed to form the Dominion. Hammerfell is massive, and have ports with independant merchants coming in from all over.

What? How couldn't Alinor trade with anyone? They weren't enemies with anyone. Trade still happens, Hammerfell is not enemies with the Empire. Only reason to reject trading with Cyrodiil which is the Hub of Tamriel is to throw a hissy fit, a costly one at that. It would ruin many of their merchants to ban trade with the Empire.

That's completely ridiculous, you can't conquer a country with mercanaries. And letting Alinor sit there and regroup while you waste time trying to bring Skyrim back into the fold is insane.

Says who? You telling me mercenaries have never been used to conquer places? They don't need to rule the country, just loot and pillage as they please. Or they move in with a Legion. Put an Imperial Governor in charge. Don't even need to waste time with the Moot like Tullius did, trying to please Jarls.

What is insane would be trying to take Alinor directly after Valenwood and parts of Elsweyr. We don't have a fancy golem like Tiber did.

Not nessacarily a united Empire, but men united. The Ulfric dossier says they don't want an independent Skyrim anymore than they do an Imperial one.

No, they hate what the Empire represents. The actual Empire, not just men united. It is like the anti-christ to them.

The dossier on Ulfric ( I haven't read it in ages, and my net is really slow on these forums, so I can't open it) far as I can remember it mentions Imperial victory would harm their overall position in Skyrim, and that aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed because they wish to avoid a Stormcloak victory also.

Both sides hate the Thalmor, the Civil War is the only thing keep their attention away from the Aldmeri Dominion.

The Empire has also collapsed before and you could say the same of many others. Ulfric survived the Great War, survived Thalmor torture, the siege of Markarth, Imperial incarceration, escaped Solitude, and survived Helgen. I know one man doesn't mean everything, but it's a nice metaphor, don't you think?


It is why we want his head. Kind of like a lucky rabbit foot.

"Lady Arranelya's main succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert". The use of the word succeeded makes it seem to me like it was a big deal. And if they hadn't done that, they wouldn't have had to deal with Skaven. Maybe they could've entered Hammerfell from Cyrodiil North of the Alik'r.

One of those Battlemages would be one in a million. There's probably a Nordic shock trooper could be just as devastating.

A massively influential deity was outlawed, and a Jarl of a very important hold was making all sorts of noise. The Markarth incident was another indicator. Do show the dialogue that suggests no one saw it coming.

No, individual Nords began to join in large numbers after Sancre Tor. He did conquer Skyrim, to a degree. "The Jarls of Skyrim and petty Kings of High Rock were the first to fall." This also points to Tiber placing people he preferred in charge of conquered lands. Like Richton in Stros M'kai or splitting up Valenwood into individual kingdoms.

For day-to-day affairs of holds yes. For rebuilding an entire province, and bringing the losers of the civil war back on your side, you'll need more than a steward.

They weren't a part of any government, probably like the Vikings who discovered Greenland and Newfoundland. Is that last line sarcasm? If people were willing to sail for the other side of the world to get away, enough to form all the cities they did, I'd imagine it was more than just "one civil war".

He's talking about individual Legionaires.

Obviously not, but look at real life examples of countries who lost wars on their own soil. The Empire's economy will be wrecked, so will their infrastructure. Plus they've got Justiciars watching their every move.


But they lost their biggest city to corsairs, and they'd be cut off from the Empire, so any trade with them would involve sending ships out which is probably riskier than using roads and will take longer.

"Shortly after the Aldmeri Dominion severed all contact with the Empire."

As a complimentary sort of thing, but mercanaries wouldn't be motivated or disciplined enough to conquer a miserable, cold, mountainous region. And so the Legion is NOW suddenly ready to conquer Skyrim like its nothing?
Why would you want to let Alinor fortify their coasts and get the navy mobilized?

They hate Lorkhan, who essentially represents men. The fact Talos was Shezzarine makes the Empire particularly bad, but if a new alliance of man arose, that would be just as bad. Talos/Shor worship would probably be pretty prevalent in said alliance.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Wasn't Red Mountain deactivated by the Nerevarine? I don't know exactly what a deactivated tower can do, but I'd guess that at that point Red Mountain was just a volcano. And maybe you've solved the time problem, but what about the space? Why Winterhold? Why wasn't Solstheim, Blacklight, Eastmarch or Dawnstar effected?

Perhaps Winterhold being exposed to the sea has something to do with it, Dawnstar and Eastmarch are more sheltered. There isn't any evidence against the College of Winterhold, asides from it still standing. All of Morrowind was effected by Red Mountain going, even Black Marsh. We have no information on Blacklight and Solstheim is still being effected.

Winterhold's up on a massive cliff, Windhelm is just a little ways down the mouth of a pretty shallow river. What I'm saying is why these tidal waves (caused a century later the eruption of a deactivated tower) only affected the one area. Why wasn't Raven Rock, Windhelm or Blacklight sunk? Their much closer than Winterhold.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Perhaps Winterhold being exposed to the sea has something to do with it, Dawnstar and Eastmarch are more sheltered. There isn't any evidence against the College of Winterhold, asides from it still standing. All of Morrowind was effected by Red Mountain going, even Black Marsh. We have no information on Blacklight and Solstheim is still being effected.
If we're talking about the possibility that the college was involved in the Great Collapse, or at least, knew of its coming, then I'd say there's a decent chance they were or did. The fact of the matter is the collapse made no contact with the college when the whole structure should have been brought down. And you can take the college's word with a grain of salt. They've claimed not to mess with necromancy, hell, they've claimed they're abhorred by the very idea, when they clearly do. Doesn't really matter to me, I just wish they would have been honest about it.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Wasn't Red Mountain deactivated by the Nerevarine? I don't know exactly what a deactivated tower can do, but I'd guess that at that point Red Mountain was just a volcano. And maybe you've solved the time problem, but what about the space? Why Winterhold? Why wasn't Solstheim, Blacklight, Eastmarch or Dawnstar effected?

Perhaps Winterhold being exposed to the sea has something to do with it, Dawnstar and Eastmarch are more sheltered. There isn't any evidence against the College of Winterhold, asides from it still standing. All of Morrowind was effected by Red Mountain going, even Black Marsh. We have no information on Blacklight and Solstheim is still being effected.

Winterhold's up on a massive cliff, Windhelm is just a little ways down the mouth of a pretty shallow river. What I'm saying is why these tidal waves (caused a century later the eruption of a deactivated tower) only affected the one area. Why wasn't Raven Rock, Windhelm or Blacklight sunk? Their much closer than Winterhold.


*sigh*

I know I prob post on here WAY too much and really should not care about a fictional story that wasn't even really fully told. Ahh... Oh well.

Tidal waves sink objects not land masses. There's some principle out there that talks about water volume. Unless the landmass itself sunk from some form of tectonic event, a tidal wave does not sink or swallow a land mass, unless the force of the wave carries it off.

Now, Windhelm was too far south and has kind of a 'natural harbor'. There is very little possibility of them taking a direct hit by a tidal wave from Winterhold's direction. Raven Rock very well could have been hit by the Tidal wave, however that post had already been completely wiped out and virtually abandoned after the eruption of Red Mtn.

4E 122 - Great Collapse.

4E-130 - Lleril Morvayn uses his personal wealth to repair the Bulwark, a barricade which protects Raven Rock from ash storms.

"Most of Raven Rock's original structures were leveled when the Red Mountain erupted in 4E 5. The Dunmer have largely rebuilt the town over the past two hundred years."
―Loading screen
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
"Lady Arranelya's main succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert". The use of the word succeeded makes it seem to me like it was a big deal. And if they hadn't done that, they wouldn't have had to deal with Skaven. Maybe they could've entered Hammerfell from Cyrodiil North of the Alik'r.

In early 4E 173, a Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege of Hegathe (a Crown city), leading to the reconciliation of the two factions. Despite this, Lady Arannelya's main army succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert.

Helps if you include the context. They dealt with Skaven because they were chasing General Decianus. So your new strategy is for them to ignore Southern Hammerfell, and instead enter the northern region from Chorrol? Great, exposed Alinor to counter attack and the rear of the entire Aldmeri army to Decianus.

One of those Battlemages would be one in a million. There's probably a Nordic shock trooper could be just as devastating.

Not really. Power attracts the Thalmor, one of their ways to recruit you is to be powerful. There would be plenty of Altmer Battlemages who are very powerful. There probably is a Nordic "shock trooper" that is quite deadly, but hopefully he can dodge fireballs.

A massively influential deity was outlawed, and a Jarl of a very important hold was making all sorts of noise. The Markarth incident was another indicator. Do show the dialogue that suggests no one saw it coming.

Well you're right on this part, people did see tensions rising. But, not many people were picking sides. Ulfric had little support until he killed High King Torygg.

No, individual Nords began to join in large numbers after Sancre Tor. He did conquer Skyrim, to a degree. "The Jarls of Skyrim and petty Kings of High Rock were the first to fall." This also points to Tiber placing people he preferred in charge of conquered lands. Like Richton in Stros M'kai or splitting up Valenwood into individual kingdoms.

No. The large Nordic Army sided with Tiber, as their Generals flocked over. Then for the next ten years, large numbers of individual Nords would head off to join him. That doesn't point to him placing people he preferred, that just means they submitted to his rule.

If it said "The Jarls of Skyrim were the first to be removed" then okay.

When Tiber Septim absorbed Valenwood into the Third Empire during the Tiber Wars, he allowed the Bosmer to keep their city-state governments and a Camoran king.

For day-to-day affairs of holds yes. For rebuilding an entire province, and bringing the losers of the civil war back on your side, you'll need more than a steward.

Rebuilding an entire province just means funding and placing orders on the various worker guilds. That falls on all of the Jarls and their Stewards. The "losers" of the Civil War will either be hunted town by the soldiers and their Commanders or will return home.

They weren't a part of any government, probably like the Vikings who discovered Greenland and Newfoundland. Is that last line sarcasm? If people were willing to sail for the other side of the world to get away, enough to form all the cities they did, I'd imagine it was more than just "one civil war".

People migrate. This was also over thousands of years, they only formed two cities during Ysgramor's time. One which was destroyed. All the other cities didn't suddenly appear, but over long periods of time.

1E 143 - Harald, the 13th descendent of the legendary Ysgramor's line, relinquishes his ancestral holdings in Atmora, and consolidates Skyrim as an independent kingdom with Windhelm as its capital. He is later recognized as the first historical ruler of the Nords.

Chances are not all of Skyrim was even united under one rule, until Harald.

He's talking about individual Legionaires.

"The tenacity of the Imperial Legion is legendary. We need to be ready for them."

Doesn't seem like it.

Obviously not, but look at real life examples of countries who lost wars on their own soil. The Empire's economy will be wrecked, so will their infrastructure. Plus they've got Justiciars watching their every move.

Skyrim is weak, guarded by poorly trained militia. Empire's economy is quite strong, if the Great War didn't wreck it. Retaking parts of Skyrim won't ruin it, they're bound to try for it anyway.

Thalmor watching isn't a problem, they've been watching for the last hundred and fifty years. Thalmor think in the long term, doubt they would want war so soon.

But they lost their biggest city to corsairs, and they'd be cut off from the Empire, so any trade with them would involve sending ships out which is probably riskier than using roads and will take longer.

I'm not sure Wayrest is their biggest city. Think Daggerfall holds that title. Skyrim had lost Markarth for a time. Ships go to Skyrim which is riskier than any province, due to the Sea of Ghosts. If Mede can sail to Skyrim, I'm sure trade ships can make it to High Rock. Besides, Hammerfell's border isn't mentioned as being closed.

"Shortly after the Aldmeri Dominion severed all contact with the Empire."

Which is after they took Valenwood. Hence "Aldmeri Dominion", so how does that even make sense to you saying Alinor couldn't trade with anyone, yet they formed the Aldmeri Dominion. They severed all contact for seventy years with the Empire. Still leaves Elsweyr, which are big on trade.

Alinor & Valenwood are not a desert nation or frozen tundra.

As a complimentary sort of thing, but mercanaries wouldn't be motivated or disciplined enough to conquer a miserable, cold, mountainous region.

High pay and the ability to loot and pillage. There are mercenaries fighting against the Stormcloaks, so why wouldn't they be motivated if they're taking sides already. Put them alongside a Legion and everything is good. Mercenaries are good to conquer locations, especially when your enemy is poor and refuses to use them.

And so the Legion is NOW suddenly ready to conquer Skyrim like its nothing?

Tullius wasn't requesting imaginary reinforcements. Titus II was refusing Tullius the soldiers needed to conquer and crush the rebellion.

I have word of a new Imperial force assembling in the south, ready to advance on our position as Pale Pass is clear. Send reinforcements, or all our gains will be for naught. - Stormcloak Missive

Why would you want to let Alinor fortify their coasts and get the navy mobilized?

Taking Valenwood and Elsweyr will be hard enough. Taking Summerset Isle straight after, would be suicide. You will need to reform your forces, regain strength, secure your holdings, build up your fleet some more. And which race are great sailors? Them lovely Nords who are ruled by very anti-Imperial leaders, I doubt they will want to take orders from Cyrodilic Officers.

They hate Lorkhan, who essentially represents men. The fact Talos was Shezzarine makes the Empire particularly bad, but if a new alliance of man arose, that would be just as bad. Talos/Shor worship would probably be pretty prevalent in said alliance.

That is one theory, much like the theory of Thalmor seeking to destroy the world.

"They're the high elves that rule the Aldmeri Dominion. Sworn enemies of the Empire and everything it stands for. Thirty years ago, they invaded the Empire and came close to destroying it. They smashed the Blades in the process. Since then, they've been working to weaken the Empire any way they can."

Winterhold's up on a massive cliff, Windhelm is just a little ways down the mouth of a pretty shallow river. What I'm saying is why these tidal waves (caused a century later the eruption of a deactivated tower) only affected the one area. Why wasn't Raven Rock, Windhelm or Blacklight sunk? Their much closer than Winterhold.

Who knows? You can't think logically about it, the only reason the College is blamed is because it is mostly intact and they don't like Mages.

If we're talking about the possibility that the college was involved in the Great Collapse, or at least, knew of its coming, then I'd say there's a decent chance they were or did. The fact of the matter is the collapse made no contact with the college when the whole structure should have been brought down. And you can take the college's word with a grain of salt. They've claimed not to mess with necromancy, hell, they've claimed they're abhorred by the very idea, when they clearly do. Doesn't really matter to me, I just wish they would have been honest about it.

The problem is we're trying to explain it. We can't, reason being the Great Collapse was Bethesda's lazy way of getting out of doing Winterhold. Keep in mind that Winterhold lorewise was very big and that it rivaled Solitude in terms of size and beauty for a lack of a better word.

The College was effected, they mention a great loss of their history.

As for your Necromancy... The College isn't opposed to Necromancy? Are you confusing with the Mages Guild?

Summoning Undead isn't frowned upon? "By Sheor, no. Those archaic policies died out with the Mages Guild, and were never enforced here. Necromancy, as any other type of magic, is a tool to be used. Of course, non-mages may not see it that way, so we don't go around flaunting it."
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Perhaps Winterhold being exposed to the sea has something to do with it, Dawnstar and Eastmarch are more sheltered. There isn't any evidence against the College of Winterhold, asides from it still standing. All of Morrowind was effected by Red Mountain going, even Black Marsh. We have no information on Blacklight and Solstheim is still being effected.
If we're talking about the possibility that the college was involved in the Great Collapse, or at least, knew of its coming, then I'd say there's a decent chance they were or did. The fact of the matter is the collapse made no contact with the college when the whole structure should have been brought down. And you can take the college's word with a grain of salt. They've claimed not to mess with necromancy, hell, they've claimed they're abhorred by the very idea, when they clearly do. Doesn't really matter to me, I just wish they would have been honest about it.


How do you know that?

Winterhold extended downwards and along the coast, prob very similar to something like Dawnstar. The part of the city on high ground was fine (including the College), all of the other districts from sea level and up were wiped out.

The Mages College sits higher than Winterhold. Tidal waves prob would not have affected them at all because they're already so high above sea level, same as the remnants of Winterhold. The Collapse made no contact with Jarl's state house either (and surrounding city) and it wasn't brought down.

You're talking about facts when you really have no factual argument, your argument is based on your personal bias towards the Mages Guild.

What does Necromancy have to do with Tidal Waves? Not all conjurers are Necromancers, not all mages are conjurers even. Some of them are healers and warriors.

If you want an honest answer, you must look at the *facts* honestly.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
How do you know that?

Winterhold extended downwards and along the coast, prob very similar to something like Dawnstar. The part of the city on high ground was fine (including the College), all of the other districts from sea level and up were wiped out.

The Mages College sits higher than Winterhold. Tidal waves prob would not have affected them at all because they're already so high above sea level, same as the remnants of Winterhold. The Collapse made no contact with Jarl's state house either (and surrounding city) and it wasn't brought down.

You're talking about facts when you really have no factual argument, your argument is based on your personal bias towards the Mages Guild.
You seem to think that I'm one of those Nords who has a problem with magic. I have no problem with magic or the College of Winterhold, I'm just looking at it from the point of view that it's possible that the college knew something about it beforehand.

What does Necromancy have to do with Tidal Waves? Not all conjurers are Necromancers, not all mages are conjurers even. Some of them are healers and warriors.
I'm saying that if the college is willing to lie to everyone about the prospect of Necromancy "for their own good" then why wouldn't they lie to everyone about them having prior knowledge to the Great Collapse "for their own good". Again, I don't see these things as fact but I'm keeping an open mind about it.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
The problem is we're trying to explain it. We can't, reason being the Great Collapse was Bethesda's lazy way of getting out of doing Winterhold. Keep in mind that Winterhold lorewise was very big and that it rivaled Solitude in terms of size and beauty for a lack of a better word.
When you put it like that it makes complete sense.

The College was effected, they mention a great loss of their history.
If the coast was rocked by tidal waves and everything around the college completely collapsed why didn't the College? I't makes sense that it would have yet it's completely fine. why? We'll never know.

As for your Necromancy... The College isn't opposed to Necromancy? Are you confusing with the Mages Guild?
Exactly, but they repeatedly lie to people and say they don't practice it, because obviously, the dead honoring Nords would throw a bitch fit had they heard of such things going on.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Exactly, but they repeatedly lie to people and say they don't practice it, because obviously, the dead honoring Nords would throw a bitch fit had they heard of such things going on.

They don't lie about it, they just don't go around shoving it in everyone's face. But they never say they don't practice it. Most Mages are assumed to be Necromancers by common folk anyway.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
If the coast was rocked by tidal waves and everything around the college completely collapsed why didn't the College? I't makes sense that it would have yet it's completely fine. why? We'll never know.

It was built by the legendary Nordic Arch-Mage Shalidor, take a bit more than tidal waves to take down that structure. If it was built by someone else, then maybe, but Shalidor himself? I have to side with the College and say the protective wards put in place by Shalidor could withstand anything.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Perhaps Winterhold being exposed to the sea has something to do with it, Dawnstar and Eastmarch are more sheltered. There isn't any evidence against the College of Winterhold, asides from it still standing. All of Morrowind was effected by Red Mountain going, even Black Marsh. We have no information on Blacklight and Solstheim is still being effected.

Winterhold's up on a massive cliff, Windhelm is just a little ways down the mouth of a pretty shallow river. What I'm saying is why these tidal waves (caused a century later the eruption of a deactivated tower) only affected the one area. Why wasn't Raven Rock, Windhelm or Blacklight sunk? Their much closer than Winterhold.


*sigh*

I know I prob post on here WAY too much and really should not care about a fictional story that wasn't even really fully told. Ahh... Oh well.

Tidal waves sink objects not land masses. There's some principle out there that talks about water volume. Unless the landmass itself sunk from some form of tectonic event, a tidal wave does not sink or swallow a land mass, unless the force of the wave carries it off.

Now, Windhelm was too far south and has kind of a 'natural harbor'. There is very little possibility of them taking a direct hit by a tidal wave from Winterhold's direction. Raven Rock very well could have been hit by the Tidal wave, however that post had already been completely wiped out and virtually abandoned after the eruption of Red Mtn.

4E 122 - Great Collapse.

4E-130 - Lleril Morvayn uses his personal wealth to repair the Bulwark, a barricade which protects Raven Rock from ash storms.

"Most of Raven Rock's original structures were leveled when the Red Mountain erupted in 4E 5. The Dunmer have largely rebuilt the town over the past two hundred years."
―Loading screen

The book mentions the bulwark showing its age, not due to it taking a thrashing from tidal waves. And the bulwark faces east, Winterhold is far to the west.

Look at the map of Tamriel, where Red Mountain is and then Winterhold, that's already looking doubtful. Now add that it's over a hundred years after the eruption and... I liked Mage's theory about it being a tower and time wouldn't mean much, but it's a deactivated tower.

On top of that (now I'm not talking about the eruption and ash storms, I'm talking about the tidal waves) no areas in between were effected.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
"Lady Arranelya's main succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert". The use of the word succeeded makes it seem to me like it was a big deal. And if they hadn't done that, they wouldn't have had to deal with Skaven. Maybe they could've entered Hammerfell from Cyrodiil North of the Alik'r.

In early 4E 173, a Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege of Hegathe (a Crown city), leading to the reconciliation of the two factions. Despite this, Lady Arannelya's main army succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert.

Helps if you include the context. They dealt with Skaven because they were chasing General Decianus. So your new strategy is for them to ignore Southern Hammerfell, and instead enter the northern region from Chorrol? Great, exposed Alinor to counter attack and the rear of the entire Aldmeri army to Decianus.

One of those Battlemages would be one in a million. There's probably a Nordic shock trooper could be just as devastating.

Not really. Power attracts the Thalmor, one of their ways to recruit you is to be powerful. There would be plenty of Altmer Battlemages who are very powerful. There probably is a Nordic "shock trooper" that is quite deadly, but hopefully he can dodge fireballs.

A massively influential deity was outlawed, and a Jarl of a very important hold was making all sorts of noise. The Markarth incident was another indicator. Do show the dialogue that suggests no one saw it coming.

Well you're right on this part, people did see tensions rising. But, not many people were picking sides. Ulfric had little support until he killed High King Torygg.

No, individual Nords began to join in large numbers after Sancre Tor. He did conquer Skyrim, to a degree. "The Jarls of Skyrim and petty Kings of High Rock were the first to fall." This also points to Tiber placing people he preferred in charge of conquered lands. Like Richton in Stros M'kai or splitting up Valenwood into individual kingdoms.

No. The large Nordic Army sided with Tiber, as their Generals flocked over. Then for the next ten years, large numbers of individual Nords would head off to join him. That doesn't point to him placing people he preferred, that just means they submitted to his rule.

If it said "The Jarls of Skyrim were the first to be removed" then okay.

When Tiber Septim absorbed Valenwood into the Third Empire during the Tiber Wars, he allowed the Bosmer to keep their city-state governments and a Camoran king.

For day-to-day affairs of holds yes. For rebuilding an entire province, and bringing the losers of the civil war back on your side, you'll need more than a steward.

Rebuilding an entire province just means funding and placing orders on the various worker guilds. That falls on all of the Jarls and their Stewards. The "losers" of the Civil War will either be hunted town by the soldiers and their Commanders or will return home.

They weren't a part of any government, probably like the Vikings who discovered Greenland and Newfoundland. Is that last line sarcasm? If people were willing to sail for the other side of the world to get away, enough to form all the cities they did, I'd imagine it was more than just "one civil war".

People migrate. This was also over thousands of years, they only formed two cities during Ysgramor's time. One which was destroyed. All the other cities didn't suddenly appear, but over long periods of time.

1E 143 - Harald, the 13th descendent of the legendary Ysgramor's line, relinquishes his ancestral holdings in Atmora, and consolidates Skyrim as an independent kingdom with Windhelm as its capital. He is later recognized as the first historical ruler of the Nords.

Chances are not all of Skyrim was even united under one rule, until Harald.

He's talking about individual Legionaires.

"The tenacity of the Imperial Legion is legendary. We need to be ready for them."

Doesn't seem like it.

Obviously not, but look at real life examples of countries who lost wars on their own soil. The Empire's economy will be wrecked, so will their infrastructure. Plus they've got Justiciars watching their every move.

Skyrim is weak, guarded by poorly trained militia. Empire's economy is quite strong, if the Great War didn't wreck it. Retaking parts of Skyrim won't ruin it, they're bound to try for it anyway.

Thalmor watching isn't a problem, they've been watching for the last hundred and fifty years. Thalmor think in the long term, doubt they would want war so soon.

But they lost their biggest city to corsairs, and they'd be cut off from the Empire, so any trade with them would involve sending ships out which is probably riskier than using roads and will take longer.

I'm not sure Wayrest is their biggest city. Think Daggerfall holds that title. Skyrim had lost Markarth for a time. Ships go to Skyrim which is riskier than any province, due to the Sea of Ghosts. If Mede can sail to Skyrim, I'm sure trade ships can make it to High Rock. Besides, Hammerfell's border isn't mentioned as being closed.

"Shortly after the Aldmeri Dominion severed all contact with the Empire."

Which is after they took Valenwood. Hence "Aldmeri Dominion", so how does that even make sense to you saying Alinor couldn't trade with anyone, yet they formed the Aldmeri Dominion. They severed all contact for seventy years with the Empire. Still leaves Elsweyr, which are big on trade.

Alinor & Valenwood are not a desert nation or frozen tundra.

As a complimentary sort of thing, but mercanaries wouldn't be motivated or disciplined enough to conquer a miserable, cold, mountainous region.

High pay and the ability to loot and pillage. There are mercenaries fighting against the Stormcloaks, so why wouldn't they be motivated if they're taking sides already. Put them alongside a Legion and everything is good. Mercenaries are good to conquer locations, especially when your enemy is poor and refuses to use them.

And so the Legion is NOW suddenly ready to conquer Skyrim like its nothing?

Tullius wasn't requesting imaginary reinforcements. Titus II was refusing Tullius the soldiers needed to conquer and crush the rebellion.

I have word of a new Imperial force assembling in the south, ready to advance on our position as Pale Pass is clear. Send reinforcements, or all our gains will be for naught. - Stormcloak Missive

Why would you want to let Alinor fortify their coasts and get the navy mobilized?

Taking Valenwood and Elsweyr will be hard enough. Taking Summerset Isle straight after, would be suicide. You will need to reform your forces, regain strength, secure your holdings, build up your fleet some more. And which race are great sailors? Them lovely Nords who are ruled by very anti-Imperial leaders, I doubt they will want to take orders from Cyrodilic Officers.

They hate Lorkhan, who essentially represents men. The fact Talos was Shezzarine makes the Empire particularly bad, but if a new alliance of man arose, that would be just as bad. Talos/Shor worship would probably be pretty prevalent in said alliance.

That is one theory, much like the theory of Thalmor seeking to destroy the world.

"They're the high elves that rule the Aldmeri Dominion. Sworn enemies of the Empire and everything it stands for. Thirty years ago, they invaded the Empire and came close to destroying it. They smashed the Blades in the process. Since then, they've been working to weaken the Empire any way they can."

Winterhold's up on a massive cliff, Windhelm is just a little ways down the mouth of a pretty shallow river. What I'm saying is why these tidal waves (caused a century later the eruption of a deactivated tower) only affected the one area. Why wasn't Raven Rock, Windhelm or Blacklight sunk? Their much closer than Winterhold.

Who knows? You can't think logically about it, the only reason the College is blamed is because it is mostly intact and they don't like Mages.

If we're talking about the possibility that the college was involved in the Great Collapse, or at least, knew of its coming, then I'd say there's a decent chance they were or did. The fact of the matter is the collapse made no contact with the college when the whole structure should have been brought down. And you can take the college's word with a grain of salt. They've claimed not to mess with necromancy, hell, they've claimed they're abhorred by the very idea, when they clearly do. Doesn't really matter to me, I just wish they would have been honest about it.

The problem is we're trying to explain it. We can't, reason being the Great Collapse was Bethesda's lazy way of getting out of doing Winterhold. Keep in mind that Winterhold lorewise was very big and that it rivaled Solitude in terms of size and beauty for a lack of a better word.

The College was effected, they mention a great loss of their history.

As for your Necromancy... The College isn't opposed to Necromancy? Are you confusing with the Mages Guild?

Summoning Undead isn't frowned upon? "By Sheor, no. Those archaic policies died out with the Mages Guild, and were never enforced here. Necromancy, as any other type of magic, is a tool to be used. Of course, non-mages may not see it that way, so we don't go around flaunting it."

So what I'm getting here is that you think there are no possible outcomes where the Dominion could've won?

Hopefully your battlemage can dodge a cloud of arrows.

The fact that (assuming Torygg's death was very recent) Ulfric already had so many Jarls on his side by the events of the game suggests to me people already knew who they'd back.

Nordic generals sided with him, it's not for sure their entire armies came over with him. I doubt every single Jarl supported Tiber. Would it surprise you if he did?

Ok, but the Jarls will look to their king for leadership. And what about the everyday citizen? Don't you think it'd be good for them to have someone to look up to and be inspired by? I'd rather not spend resources hunting down the "losers" and bring them back on your side.

Ok this Atmora is getting a bit off-topic so let's leave it at that.

Still, it's just a veteran showing some respect for his former comrades.

I think Skyrim is a lot more resource rich than the Empire. Nothing indicates the militia is poorly trained, Nords are naturally talented warriors. I can't imagine the Empire's economy in good shape after war, losing Hammerfell, and Skyrim's rebellion. And, yes, letting Thalmor snoop around the entire Empire will not get you the upper hand for next time.

It's also possible an independent Skyrim wouldn't say no to trade with the Empire.

Well I'm sure it's not far behind Daggerfall if it isn't, Markarth was lost during the war, Wayrest was taken afterwards.

Ok, sorry, you're right. Elsweyr was taken a while after though, so for a few years it was just Alinor, and later Valenwood.

Valenwood can't use any of their lumber, and probably not as much farming or mining there.

So if the Empire would give free reign for mercanaries to do whatever they will with the innocent people of Skyrim, that's the final nail in the coffin for me, they aren't worth fighting for anymore.

So we're on the same page, exactly how long are we waiting till they head for Alinor?

No, that's pretty much what defines Elven religion.

That and their tendancy to perform reckless stuff, and the fact I severely doubt the Red Mountain story.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
How do you know that?

Winterhold extended downwards and along the coast, prob very similar to something like Dawnstar. The part of the city on high ground was fine (including the College), all of the other districts from sea level and up were wiped out.

The Mages College sits higher than Winterhold. Tidal waves prob would not have affected them at all because they're already so high above sea level, same as the remnants of Winterhold. The Collapse made no contact with Jarl's state house either (and surrounding city) and it wasn't brought down.

You're talking about facts when you really have no factual argument, your argument is based on your personal bias towards the Mages Guild.
You seem to think that I'm one of those Nords who has a problem with magic. I have no problem with magic or the College of Winterhold, I'm just looking at it from the point of view that it's possible that the college knew something about it beforehand.

What does Necromancy have to do with Tidal Waves? Not all conjurers are Necromancers, not all mages are conjurers even. Some of them are healers and warriors.
I'm saying that if the college is willing to lie to everyone about the prospect of Necromancy "for their own good" then why wouldn't they lie to everyone about them having prior knowledge to the Great Collapse "for their own good". Again, I don't see these things as fact but I'm keeping an open mind about it.


Alright.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Winterhold's up on a massive cliff, Windhelm is just a little ways down the mouth of a pretty shallow river. What I'm saying is why these tidal waves (caused a century later the eruption of a deactivated tower) only affected the one area. Why wasn't Raven Rock, Windhelm or Blacklight sunk? Their much closer than Winterhold.


*sigh*

I know I prob post on here WAY too much and really should not care about a fictional story that wasn't even really fully told. Ahh... Oh well.

Tidal waves sink objects not land masses. There's some principle out there that talks about water volume. Unless the landmass itself sunk from some form of tectonic event, a tidal wave does not sink or swallow a land mass, unless the force of the wave carries it off.

Now, Windhelm was too far south and has kind of a 'natural harbor'. There is very little possibility of them taking a direct hit by a tidal wave from Winterhold's direction. Raven Rock very well could have been hit by the Tidal wave, however that post had already been completely wiped out and virtually abandoned after the eruption of Red Mtn.

4E 122 - Great Collapse.

4E-130 - Lleril Morvayn uses his personal wealth to repair the Bulwark, a barricade which protects Raven Rock from ash storms.

"Most of Raven Rock's original structures were leveled when the Red Mountain erupted in 4E 5. The Dunmer have largely rebuilt the town over the past two hundred years."
―Loading screen

The book mentions the bulwark showing its age, not due to it taking a thrashing from tidal waves. And the bulwark faces east, Winterhold is far to the west.

Look at the map of Tamriel, where Red Mountain is and then Winterhold, that's already looking doubtful. Now add that it's over a hundred years after the eruption and... I liked Mage's theory about it being a tower and time wouldn't mean much, but it's a deactivated tower.

On top of that (now I'm not talking about the eruption and ash storms, I'm talking about the tidal waves) no areas in between were effected.


The sea "came alive" and carried over half the city away. There would have had to have been secondary damage.

The Arch Mage and at least one or two others have said the College suffered from the Great Collapge too.

Furthermore, anything powerful enough to protect the College from a tidal wave would have been enough to protect the city.

They didn't know because it wasn't a magical phenomenon that they were aware of, if magic in nature at all.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
It was built by the legendary Nordic Arch-Mage Shalidor, take a bit more than tidal waves to take down that structure. If it was built by someone else, then maybe, but Shalidor himself? I have to side with the College and say the protective wards put in place by Shalidor could withstand anything.
Sure it can protect the College and it's foundation but something about this: College Of Winterhold.jpg
The Rock formation and the fact that all of the rock crumbled like a cookie, except for the one forming the foundation for the college, is somewhat suspicious. Again, I in no way hate the college or want to see their downfall. Mages make good soldiers and Enchanting is a useful asset that Ulfric Believes in using, I just see something wrong with this picture. I don't Believe the college had anything to do with the Collapse itself, but maybe they had prior knowledge and just didn't tell the local Nords for some trivial reason. I don't know Mr. Arch Mage, I Don't know. However I do know that you are inebriated quite often so I'm not sure how much of your word I can fully take seriously.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
So what I'm getting here is that you think there are no possible outcomes where the Dominion could've won?

I have no doubt they would have won, if they didn't try for Cyrodiil. They underestimated the nature of men, taking the Imperial City was a huge mistake. Believing the war was over by simply taking the city, was another big mistake. They forgot mankind don't do things logically.

The Akaviri learnt that lesson in the Second Era.

Hopefully your battlemage can dodge a cloud of arrows.

Well the Dominion does have at least some the best archers in Tamriel. But, that is why people carry shields.

The fact that (assuming Torygg's death was very recent) Ulfric already had so many Jarls on his side by the events of the game suggests to me people already knew who they'd back.

His death was a month ago. Skald sided with him straight away, Winterhold and Riften aren't mentioned, though it isn't surprising he had a few Jarls on his side. Torygg's death was a message to them (All the Jarls), so of course they would be picking sides pretty soon. Wouldn't you? If you were a minor Jarl pretty close to Eastmarch, and you hear rumors he shouted the High King to pieces. No one likes the White-Gold Concordat, and the Eastern Holds were always lacking in Imperial influence and authority.

Nordic generals sided with him, it's not for sure their entire armies came over with him. I doubt every single Jarl supported Tiber. Would it surprise you if he did?

Their armies came, it is how he conquered the Imperial City and became Emperor. Tiber was recognized as Dragonborn, the ultimate Nordic hero. Be quite rare to find a Nord ruler who would oppose that. Especially when he has your Generals.

Ok, but the Jarls will look to their king for leadership. And what about the everyday citizen? Don't you think it'd be good for them to have someone to look up to and be inspired by? I'd rather not spend resources hunting down the "losers" and bring them back on your side.

Jarls look to themselves, they're largely independent. Elisif won't even be properly ruling for several years, if she was to become High Queen. Legate Rikke is placed in charge of Skyrim, technically. Empire victory, Skyrim is still under martial law for several years.

Elisif does have some good advisors, and she is learning. She's a new ruler, she has to learn some time. You can't fight a Civil War every time someone's heir takes the throne.

As for everyday citizens, majority simply care about their own lives and work. Your Inn Keepers care about getting ale and mead shipments on time, farmers about their crops and if the "Gods will make it rain" plops like that. Several citizens actually fear/hate the Legion and Stormcloaks both, hoping they will stay away.

Both Ulfric and Tullius mention hunting down the enemy if they don't return to their homes on their own.


Still, it's just a veteran showing some respect for his former comrades.

Also a Stormcloak supporter. Then you also have the Stormcloak Jarl of Markarth who mentions he misses being in the Legion.

I think Skyrim is a lot more resource rich than the Empire. Nothing indicates the militia is poorly trained, Nords are naturally talented warriors. I can't imagine the Empire's economy in good shape after war, losing Hammerfell, and Skyrim's rebellion. And, yes, letting Thalmor snoop around the entire Empire will not get you the upper hand for next time.

The Empire is more than one province. If you mean more resource rich than Cyrodiil? You're talking about a very perfect climate province, rich farmlands, they do have mines, and massive forests. Plenty of game to hunt, fishing off the coats, being the cross roads of Tamriel it would see a lot of merchant traffic, and they would stay at the various inn's and hotels which all get taxed. Throw in the East Empire Company which is the largest merchant guild, that provides the Empire with a lot of money.

Not all Nords are natural warriors. That is a generalization, like Imperials are great traders and diplomats. Not even all Bosmer are good archers, it takes training and practice. Most of the Stormcloaks are shopkeepers and farmers, Militia with little training and mismatched equipment. You can't simply expect someone to pick up a weapon and be skilled with it.

As for the Empire's economy, they're not pleading poverty with the chests of gold sent to the Jarls of Skyrim after the Great War ended. The Stormcloak Rebellion is wasting Skyrim's resources, should be looking at your own economy. Every Hold in paying for the war effort on each side.

Regarding the Thalmor, they snoop around anyway. They were infiltrating the Empire for a hundred and fifty years, well before the White-Gold Concordat. It doesn't really matter, the Empire isn't making a secret about their plans. Moving just about the entire Imperial Army onto the Aldmeri doorstep is a pretty clear message.

It's also possible an independent Skyrim wouldn't say no to trade with the Empire.

They might once the tax hits them. Under the Empire they enjoy free trade.

Well I'm sure it's not far behind Daggerfall if it isn't, Markarth was lost during the war, Wayrest was taken afterwards.

During the war or after, it doesn't make much difference. The Legions were pretty beat up.

Valenwood can't use any of their lumber, and probably not as much farming or mining there.

Didn't stop the Dominion in the Second Era from doing so. Besides, with the Thalmor ethnic cleansing I don't believe many would oppose them.

So if the Empire would give free reign for mercanaries to do whatever they will with the innocent people of Skyrim, that's the final nail in the coffin for me, they aren't worth fighting for anymore.

Pretty hypocritical stance, or did you forget about the Stormcloaks launching fireballs into the city of Whiterun with little regard for the "innocent people" within. Innocence is always the first to go in war.

So we're on the same page, exactly how long are we waiting till they head for Alinor?

Depends how costly the first phase would be.

No, that's pretty much what defines Elven religion.

The Divines are partly Elven religion. Talos was an add on that was not recognized by them, can't really say for certain what their views are. Except that they are sworn enemies of the Empire and everything it stands for. The Imperial Empire represents mankind's dominance and achievements over elves for Eras.

That and their tendancy to perform reckless stuff, and the fact I severely doubt the Red Mountain story.

Which reckless stuff? They tend to restrain their research so the locals won't get upset. Frankly, I think they should tell the Nords to suck it up.
 
Last edited:

Ivory

Let's Player
Valenwood can't use any of their lumber, and probably not as much farming or mining there.

Didn't stop the Dominion in the Second Era from doing so. Besides, with the Thalmor ethnic cleansing I don't believe many would oppose them.

Valenwood bosmer can't use the wood. They live by the Green Pact. If they cut wood or eat the vegetation from Valenwood they are forced into a limbo state worse than death or oblivion. Think Durnahviir but worse, living in vile muck for eternity.

However, the wood orcs, and any other race are not bound by the Green Pact of Valenwood. They're able to rip apart trees and do as they please. That said, Valenwood is a living entity and if it felt it's life was truly in danger, well, Valenwood itself would probably slaughter anyone, even bosmer who follow the Green Pact.

The only action I can think that would cause Valenwood to do such, is the death of the Wilderking/queen, depending who's ruling that currently.
 

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