General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Psh, never.
Unless either the Imperials die, Stormcloaks die or Alduin returns and screws us all over again.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Unless either the Imperials die, Stormcloaks die or Alduin returns and screws us all over again.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
I guess it'll never be answered. Chances are they won't even mention the war in TES VI
General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
I disagree. To me, this is a event to important to ignore.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
That's what I'm hoping, but I guess we won't know until- what, five years?
A Nord's last thoughts should be of home...
General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
F***, that long?
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
Depending on when Beth. wants to. I'm actually hoping for later rather than sooner so they can iron out all the glitches and bugs. But with the success of Skyrim I doubt they learned their lesson
A Nord's last thoughts should be of home...
General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
There weren't any really bad game breaking glitches. However, anything is better than another Call Of Duty.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
Yeah, nothing game breaking, but if you take a look at some of the content in the works, it's a shame they were never implemented. The Civil War was going to be so Fleshed out, intuitive, and even strategic at some points. Just picture this: Stormcloak Giants. STORMCLOAK F#%€@*% GIANTS. I came in my pants at least twice just thinking about that.There weren't any really bad game breaking glitches. However, anything is better than another Call Of Duty.
A Nord's last thoughts should be of home...
-The Ice Queen-
Rightful Queen of Skyrim
Priceless!
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Agreed. If they declare one side or another the winner it'll upset each side's fan base.
Chances are excellent the Civil War outcome will never be 'officially' resolved. However, whenever the next 'future TES' is released, I believe an assertion of the Civil War outcome will be able to be extrapolated from new lore data.
It'll never hold up in a serious debate, however the answer will be there somewhere.
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Whoa.
I've read the last page or so and Imperials just will not understand what the Qahn is trying to convey here. Yeah, I know, I know however you have to feel their pain, in order to remain sane.
And it's this outrage, this bitterness, this blame game that drives the Stormcloaks. To some extent, I can see why they're angry and maybe they should be.
I've always said the Stormcloaks were the weakest link however, that doesn't make them weak. What it boils down to... is the Stormcloaks want to be left alone. They want everyone ~ whom they feel has wronged them ~ off their land and out of their lives.
So, the more rational thinking Imperial will immed dismiss the Stormcloak argument for what have you. The Stormcloaks feel they've been wronged, let down, abandoned, knife in back and well... used so many times in the past that they want a new beginning.
They see Ulfric as this "New Beginning" and they don't mind that he's a loon, because so are they. Not to imply any disrespect, just in the sense that the Stormcloaks are tired of being rational when folks aren't rational towards them. So then the obvious conclusion is to rebel thru irrationality.
You can't have a rational rebellion against a Gov that has corrupted the def of "civility". At least according to them. So what we're perceiving as being an "off the wall argument" makes perfect sense when you consider how much pain, loss and suffering the 'cloaks have incurred because of the Empire. And the Empire is to blame for at least some of it.
Still, Ulfric drew swords against his countrymen FIRST, what honor is there in slaying them who honor you?
To illustrate, there was someone I once admired, held them as friend. Out of no where came the back stab, it was really bad and never had this person discussed the matter with me before. Suppose I was in the wrong, people make mistakes. However, one can make a mistake and still be honorable, as opposed to someone else pretending to be honorable and making no mistake.
And I don't care who started what, TRUST is the key to any relationship. Without Trust, there is no hope for cooperation. Emperor Mede and Jarl Ulfric both violated this Trust. Eliminating them gives the relationship a chance again, to close Pandora's box in just enough time to keep hope alive.
You have some good points here, you also have to understand how important honour and traditions are to Nords. They have been shamed by the Dominion and now their customs are becoming harder and harder to keep to. Your right about them wanting a "new beginning", where they can look after themselves before anyone else, but it's also a chance to redeem themselves and their honour. They'll show the Empire they don't need them, and they'll show the Dominion they are the superior force. They want to prove to themselves and the world they're still the fierce, independant and strong people of Skyrim.
Well yeah and I *totally* respect that argument. Totally.
It's just, Whiterun and the Reach kingdom had this same mentality. See? Ulfric Stormcloak liberated them from their Kingdom / Hold when no one from there was bothering the Stormcloaks. If say, Whiterun wanted to join Ulfric I'd be totally accepting of it because that's their decision to make. Whiterun can be used as a model for any other city-state or Province.
The people could form a petition and take it before the nobles and the Jarl and then join the 'cloaks. Hell, I'd even help them move
However, What happened though? Whiterun wanted to be free of BOTH Empire and 'Cloaks. And what also happened? Ulfric threatened them with war, eventually instigated a war on this Hold that chose not to side with him. So they had to side with the Empire to preserve their freedom(s).Which ultimately, was Freedom from Ulfric.
This is why I could never take up the Stormcloak cause. If Whiterun Hold already had Freedom of Talos worship and Freedom of Speech then how are they not free?
* They are friends of the Empire...big deal who are you to tell them who their friends are?
* They are neutral with the Thalmor...your kingdom doesn't set their foreign policy.
* They don't believe in Ulfric's cause...then according to your cause you should respect their beliefs, even if different from your own.
* Whiterun is keeping Skyrim from being unified by not joining the 'cloaks...submit a diplomatic package to Whiterun and hold a summit on the topic.
BUUTTT Since this didn't happen, no I think every Imperial Hold, Citizen or any Neutral party in Skyrim should resist Ulfric's aggression, not to take away the Stormcloaks Freedom, but to protect their own.
An official winner for the Civil War may never be declared, however in some ways Ulfric has already lost, even if he wins.
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General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
It's weird. When you think about it, the Empire may only die by the Empire.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
Yeah, they can't exactly tell half the fan base "sorry, you're wrong". I'm sure Bethesda has had something in mind since they decided to include the Civil War. I'll be kinda disappointed if they play the "dragon break" card again though.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
Whoa.
I've read the last page or so and Imperials just will not understand what the Qahn is trying to convey here. Yeah, I know, I know however you have to feel their pain, in order to remain sane.
And it's this outrage, this bitterness, this blame game that drives the Stormcloaks. To some extent, I can see why they're angry and maybe they should be.
I've always said the Stormcloaks were the weakest link however, that doesn't make them weak. What it boils down to... is the Stormcloaks want to be left alone. They want everyone ~ whom they feel has wronged them ~ off their land and out of their lives.
So, the more rational thinking Imperial will immed dismiss the Stormcloak argument for what have you. The Stormcloaks feel they've been wronged, let down, abandoned, knife in back and well... used so many times in the past that they want a new beginning.
They see Ulfric as this "New Beginning" and they don't mind that he's a loon, because so are they. Not to imply any disrespect, just in the sense that the Stormcloaks are tired of being rational when folks aren't rational towards them. So then the obvious conclusion is to rebel thru irrationality.
You can't have a rational rebellion against a Gov that has corrupted the def of "civility". At least according to them. So what we're perceiving as being an "off the wall argument" makes perfect sense when you consider how much pain, loss and suffering the 'cloaks have incurred because of the Empire. And the Empire is to blame for at least some of it.
Still, Ulfric drew swords against his countrymen FIRST, what honor is there in slaying them who honor you?
To illustrate, there was someone I once admired, held them as friend. Out of no where came the back stab, it was really bad and never had this person discussed the matter with me before. Suppose I was in the wrong, people make mistakes. However, one can make a mistake and still be honorable, as opposed to someone else pretending to be honorable and making no mistake.
And I don't care who started what, TRUST is the key to any relationship. Without Trust, there is no hope for cooperation. Emperor Mede and Jarl Ulfric both violated this Trust. Eliminating them gives the relationship a chance again, to close Pandora's box in just enough time to keep hope alive.
You have some good points here, you also have to understand how important honour and traditions are to Nords. They have been shamed by the Dominion and now their customs are becoming harder and harder to keep to. Your right about them wanting a "new beginning", where they can look after themselves before anyone else, but it's also a chance to redeem themselves and their honour. They'll show the Empire they don't need them, and they'll show the Dominion they are the superior force. They want to prove to themselves and the world they're still the fierce, independant and strong people of Skyrim.
Well yeah and I *totally* respect that argument. Totally.
It's just, Whiterun and the Reach kingdom had this same mentality. See? Ulfric Stormcloak liberated them from their Kingdom / Hold when no one from there was bothering the Stormcloaks. If say, Whiterun wanted to join Ulfric I'd be totally accepting of it because that's their decision to make. Whiterun can be used as a model for any other city-state or Province.
The people could form a petition and take it before the nobles and the Jarl and then join the 'cloaks. Hell, I'd even help them move
Which ultimately, was Freedom from Ulfric.
This is why I could never take up the Stormcloak cause. If Whiterun Hold already had Freedom of Talos worship and Freedom of Speech then how are they not free?
* They are friends of the Empire...big deal who are you to tell them who their friends are?
* They are neutral with the Thalmor...your kingdom doesn't set their foreign policy.
* They don't believe in Ulfric's cause...then according to your cause you should respect their beliefs, even if different from your own.
* Whiterun is keeping Skyrim from being unified by not joining the 'cloaks...submit a diplomatic package to Whiterun and hold a summit on the topic.
BUUTTT Since this didn't happen, no I think every Imperial Hold, Citizen or any Neutral party in Skyrim should resist Ulfric's aggression, not to take away the Stormcloaks Freedom, but to protect their own.
An official winner for the Civil War may never be declared, however in some ways Ulfric has already lost, even if he wins.
But no place in Skyrim is a democracy, monarchs make the decisions, Empire and Stormcloaks alike. Ulfric doesn't want to take Whiterun to impose his rule on the city, it's a strategic thing. When Whiterun is taken, the stalemate is over and one side has basically won the war. Also, Ulfric gives Balgruuf a chance to prolong his decision or make peace, but Balgruuf returns the axe. Whiterun was never really neutral, before the war they would've been ruled by the Empire like Windhelm would've been. They never really became independant, just Balgruuf won't allow any Legionaires in the city. I would guess Tullius and the Empire would have every right to force Balgruuf to allow Legionaires to be stationed there, but if they did they'd be afraid of Balgruuf siding with Ulfric because of it. Talos worship would still be technically illegal, but no one who cares is there to enforce it, so it goes on. Not really a great decision by Balgruuf to wait until the war is on his doorstep to make a decision.
An independent Skyrim would still be managed hold-by-hold by the Jarls, Ulfric wouldn't go city to city constructing Grey Quarters. The only thing he might do would be conscription, which probably wouldn't be new to Skyrim, and certainly isn't the worst thing he could do.
Side note: Not that you did, but I hate when people call Ulfric a dictator. Everything on Tamriel is a monarchy, if you haven't noticed.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It does. They didn't need to cross the Alik'r, what united the Redguards was the siege of a city in southern Hammerfell. Which means they would still unite following your idea of them just "Taking the southern part, and hitting Cyrodiil with everything".
So now that they've taken the Imperial City, Mede has retreated North and now four armies are coming down upon them. Good job Aldmeri Generals.
In an army of thousands? What even makes you think every healer suddenly knows all the restoration spells under the sun? Wards are a specific study, just as offensive spells against undead are.
Skirmishes and raids aren't that rare.
Says who? Skyrim was not a conquered province, but was the province who had joined willingly at the start. They also were the strongarm of the Empire. There have been High Kings who have acted against "Imperial interests", the Empire backed a Republic in Hammerfell because it advanced and protected their interests, they could bribe nobles. Skyrim's form of governing isn't reliable, titles are past from parent to heir.
Resources come from all over Skyrim, Falkreath supplies majority of the lumber. Also resources from the Empire, and the free trade Skyrim has for being a province of the Empire. No Jarl truly runs the Hold, it is why they all have a Court. The Stewards actually do the running of a city and hold. So you're blaming Elisif for something every Jarl/King does and has done for the last thousands of years?
Please... Before we start hating, at least gain an understanding of how Nords govern.
What? It was Ysgramor and the first settlers who were fleeing troubles in Atmora, which was a Civil War. Then when Ysgramor returned to Atmora, he rallied his countrymen to the threat of elves.
Twenty six years ago. But, Skyrim has recently been decimated right now. So the Nords are in even worse shape, yet they're going to take on the Dominion? If twenty six years ago is recently decimated, then you Stormcloaks are up plops creek for the next thirty years.
Empire signed the White-Gold Concordat and got peace. Aldmeri Dominion kept fighting in Hammerfell for another five years. Yes, really. When one faction isn't fighting, but is rebuilding and repairing, they have a head start over the other faction who is still waging war and losing soldiers and resources. Didn't think that was a hard concept.
High Rock is still stronger than Skyrim is at the moment.
The Empire thrives on trade. If the Redguards decided they wanted to refuse to trade with the Empire, they would be stupid. They're not enemies. Refusing to trade with the Empire would mean for the last twenty years they only have had the option of trading with the Thalmor or Morrowind.
If they did another Blackwood Company, it is possible. Empire does employ thousands of mercenaries. Also depends on the Empire's plans, if they were to take Valenwood only before moving onto Summerset much later.
It would be interesting playing in a Dominion controlled environment. You should also remember, a United Empire is what the Dominion hate the most, what the Thalmor are against completely and ideologically. They are against everything it stands for.
Don't underestimate the Empire, they have a habit of being able to survive impossible odds. Just when you think you've beaten them, they come back stronger and expand even further than last.
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DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Red Mountain is one of the towers that holds the world up. Is it really hard to believe it could have effects that are only felt hundreds of years later? Time holds no meaning to them. Hundreds of years later, or thousands in the past. You're thinking logically to an illogical situation.
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TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
Crossing the Alik'r was very hard on both armies, and it left the Dominion too weak to go any further. When the Redguards pushed back, they had to cross it again, which was a huge disaster. I'm no military tactician, I'm not gonna sit here and plan out the Dominion's entire invasion plan, but if they hadn't overestimated the Empire, I'm sure they could've cooked something up.
Obviously for an army of thousands, I was speaking more for a smaller division of an army. My point is, the Stormcloaks have healers, who have knowledge of the restoration school, who have the potential to learn wards. Obviously magic wouldn't be the Stormcloaks strong point, but they do meet the bare-minimum for it, in my opinion.
No, but they were the private army of a Jarl of pretty important hold. I'm sure at that point people were starting to realize what was coming, and at least picked who they were gonna side with, even if they aren't sending out troops yet.
The government of Skyrim hadnt joined yet, and I'd imagine Septim put someone he liked a little more on the throne when it was over. Considering they liked Tiber so much, Skyrim probably didn't push too hard for anything that put them on level with Morrowind or Hammerfell.
Yes, I have no idea how Nordic governments work because I recognize it would be better to have an actual King who's more than just a figurehead.
The Companions are essentially mercanaries, no Atmoran army came over. Skyrim being a territory of Atmora was more of an acknowledgement than anything. Atmora sounds like it was way too weakened to govern anything on the other side of the world.
I guess so, because the Legions been in crap-condition since the Oblivion crisis.
No Aldmeri soil was touched during the war. While the Empire has to rebuild everything, the Dominion just has to replenish their armies.
High Rock stronger than Skyrim? Debatable.
Alinor couldn't trade with anyone either but they still managed to form the Dominion. Hammerfell is massive, and have ports with independant merchants coming in from all over.
That's completely ridiculous, you can't conquer a country with mercanaries. And letting Alinor sit there and regroup while you waste time trying to bring Skyrim back into the fold is insane.
Not nessacarily a united Empire, but men united. The Ulfric dossier says they don't want an independent Skyrim anymore than they do an Imperial one.
The Empire has also collapsed before and you could say the same of many others. Ulfric survived the Great War, survived Thalmor torture, the siege of Markarth, Imperial incarceration, escaped Solitude, and survived Helgen. I know one man doesn't mean everything, but it's a nice metaphor, don't you think?
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
Wasn't Red Mountain deactivated by the Nerevarine? I don't know exactly what a deactivated tower can do, but I'd guess that at that point Red Mountain was just a volcano. And maybe you've solved the time problem, but what about the space? Why Winterhold? Why wasn't Solstheim, Blacklight, Eastmarch or Dawnstar effected?
Ivory
Let's Player
Considering Solstheim is smothered in Ash, Ash spawn, barely survivable to the point only one of the Great Houses bothers with it kinda is because of Red Mountain.
We don't know if Blacklight has been affected or not. It's only been briefly mentioned.
Hell, all of Morrowind is in turmoil. Once Red Mountain erupted, the Argonians used the chance to attack. Smart move on their part.
Eastmarch took in refugees that are now outcasts by stormcloaks.
Dawnstar is a bit out there, even for waves to reach out that far. But that's just my interpretation of the situation.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
I meant the earthquake/tidal waves/tsunami that sunk Winterhold more than a century after the eruption. Why didn't the Collapse (not the original eruption) effect the other areas I mentioned?
