Ivory
Let's Player
Also known as the Easy Mode Class.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
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Also known as the Easy Mode Class.
Pompey
Supporter of the fourth Legion
I was thinking a few minutes ago about the Civil War, and as I am an supporter of the Empire, my taught came across this: I think most people consider Ulfric as a man with honor. When you join the legion, you swear an oath -> "upon my honor, i do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor and unwavering obedience to the officiers of his great empire" Also, Rikke said that you are in the legion for life. Ulfric fought in the Great War as a soldier of the legion. So, Tullius, as a General, is probably higher ranked as Ulfric. Thus, Ulfric falls under the command of Tullius => End of the Civil War, as he can't break the oath without considered as honorless by other Nords.
Dropjaw23
Hail the Empire!
But i'm sure they don't literally mean that, just saying for example the American civil war the rebels had a well respected commander-in-chief (aka Robert E. Lee) but he was former American commander. The reason I say this is because the American military veterans usually "stay in it for life" by getting benefits when they get out, VA and paid collage are some examples. Besides I doubt every Nord knows he was in the legion, I mean look at the isolated Morthal, they hear rumors of war not the actual war. And they believe that Ulfric is honorable because he is fighting someone to "weak" too fight the elves themselves .
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
Expanding her business through Nirn like McDonald's and become the first global player.
XIIGenocide
The Scaled Arcanist
Just wondering who the Redguard would side with? I'm guessing the Stormcloaks? Could someone enlighten me?
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
It's sort of up in the air. Personally I think it would make more sense for them to side with a Stormcloak Skyrim assuming they won the war. If the Empire wins, well, obviously them.
Skyrim and Hammerfell would have a lot in common and anger towards the Empire. Joining forces would also force High Rock on board. It makes sense to me.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
Well if you want a revolution the fact you took an oath when you were in your 20s won't mean much. Stormcloaks will say Torygg and Mede have broken their oaths to protect them and their culture.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You do see Redguard Legionaries in Skyrim, also see Breton Legionaries.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
It wouldn't have mattered, they wouldn't have had to cross the Alik'r and Redguard resistance would still be a mess. Even if I'm wrong, they would have spent the time before the invasion preparing for taking the capital instead of changing plans halfway through when the Empire started to get it together. The generals over in Summerset probably would've had a plan or two.
You only need one or two mages up front casting wards... Not all your healers...
They had skirmishes going, the Jarls either did or didn't back Ulfric, they knew a war was coming.
They wouldn't allow such a form of government if it didn't advance and protect their interests within the province.
They won't stop the rebuilding, but the holds still rely on the crown (where will the holds whose coffer's have been wiped clean by the war going to get any resources to rebuild?), and Elisif's dialogue implies that she cannot run Haafingar on her own, much less Skyrim. As for her advisors, Falk seems alright (he does ignore Wolfskull Cave though) but you can't expect him to run the whole kingdom, and her thanes are more concerned with making money than anything.
Hammerfell benefitted from a weakened Dominion but the tide turned when they united. The Tribunal caused Red Mountain, and there wasn't really a civil war. And without Red Mountain the Argonian invasion would never have been successful.
High Rock could care less if the decision to invade them crippled the Dominion, it would probably cripple High Rock first. The Bretons don't have a history of striving for independence or anything, so they definatly hop on board an available alliance.
It's not like Atmora was directly governing Skyrim or at least not for very long. The immigrants were fleeing troubles in Atmora for the most part so they probably weren't all that loyal to the government back home. Windhelm probably had more power than back home by the time they split. Yes, the Empire isn't the be all end all, that was my original point.
a) That has recently been decimated
b) Im not sure what you're saying here, the Empire got a head start preparing over the Dominion? Not really...
c) (Assuming we're talking about a scenario where Ulfric won) It's just them and High Rock, and High Rock is no world power, corsairs have recently sacked Wayrest
The EETC has investors who are high up in the Empire but are operated independently. Because merchants and caravaneers are still going back and forth, it's not as simple as them saying "we're still pretty mad at you, but could we ever go for a bottle of Colovian brandy right about now!"
So you're saying the Empire will be strong enough to fight a war on two fronts against Skyrim and the Dominion at the same time. Maybe if the Thalmor have been completely overthrown waaaay down the line, sure go ahead, reconquer Skyrim, but not during the Second Great War.
Sadly I see it coming to that, because a Dominion occupied Tamriel would make the Civil War irrelevant, or maybe some Northern humans are holding out. It would be kinda cool to play in Dominion provinces and work as a freedom fighter or something. Remember, a United Empire still doesn't have great odds against the Dominion.
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TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
One or two Redguards who probably grew up in Cyrodiil doesn't represent the Hammerfell government. And you'd think you'd see a lot more Bretons, considering they're (sort of) at peace back home and they border Skyrim.
Nocte Aeterna
Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Film
It warms my heart to see you guys debating so fiercely on this matter.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
'True Nords' are stuck somewhere in Atmora, and little is known about them, except that it's believed that conflict getting out of hand/wars made them flee from Atmora in the first place.
Anyway, even though I'm a bit late, time for some good old Stormcloak-Jarl bashing.
Let's start with Skald; very open about his allegiance to the Stormcloaks, and not liked as a ruler. Even argues with his own staff over and over again. Lookie here:
Skald: "Madena, can we count on your spells to assist us in this war? The Empire is bound to bring their battlemages against us."
Madena: "I told you before, Skald, I have no interest in taking sides in this war. I've no desire to be killed."
Skald: "What good is a court mage if she refuses to fight? Where's your sense of duty?"
Madena: "When I came here, my only duties were to cure crop diseases and occasionally light a bonfire on holidays. I didn't sign up to kill."
Skald: "Fine, but this isn't over Madena. We'll talk again."
Jod: "My Jarl, I have concerns about the safety of Dawnstar."
Skald: "Safety? Don't I have you to handle the town's safety? What is this about, Jod?"
Jod: "You keep pledging more and more of our guard to the frontlines. The way this is going, we won't be able to defend our own borders."
Skald: "Nonsense. The best place for our men is driving the Imperials back. I will ensure that men from Dawnstar get every opportunity for glory."
Jod: "Glory is meaningless if they have no home to return to. I urge you to lower our commitments to the front until I'm sure we're safe."
Skald: "I won't have you rob our soldiers of their chance to drive out the Empire. I'm done discussing this, Jod."
Skald: "We are poised for glory, Jod. The Empire will never take Dawnstar while every last man, woman, and child here draws breathe!"
Jod: "With respect, Jarl. You can't ask everyone to throw themselves against trained Legionnaires. Let's leave the fighting to the Stormcloaks."
Skald: "You're right. Why dilute the glory with too many souls fighting over it? We'll drive out the Empire and be celebrated as heroes when we win."
Jod: "If we win. This war is going to drag on for years. I can feel it. We need to prepare for a long struggle ahead."
Skald: "Enough of your dire predictions! We will talk about this another time."
If you read at least the last two dialogues above and still think he's a wise leader then you really shouldn't be nagging at Mede's decision to leave the Imperial City behind. Now, since I mentioned "not liked as a ruler" up there, I guess I'll throw up some dialogue from the people in Dawnstar:
That would be Jarl Skald the Elder. He's over in the White Hall, probably talking about Ulfric like he's the second coming of Talos. -Beitild
That would be Skald the Elder. He's been running Dawnstar ever since he was a boy, and he never lost that brat's attitude. Turned on the Empire first chance he got. Now we're all part of this rebellion. -Leigelf
Pfft. I'm the oldest woman in Dawnstar. Was here when the Skald the Elder was Skald the Younger. He's a fool, if you haven't met him already. Thinks Ulfric Stormcloak is invincible and spits dragon fire. The people here look to Brina Merilis when they need things settled. Real firebrand going up. Wasn't surprised when she joined the Legion. -Frida
Oh, it's just wonderful being Skald's servant. He's not demanding in the least. -Bulfrek
The Jarl is... tired. Be mindful of that. -Jod
All in all, it doesn't speak of maturity for Skald. Why isn't someone challenging him? Guess that chick who replaces him once the Empire takes over is just too nice, bleh... anyway, next is Laila Law-Giver. That woman has been efficiently manipulated by Maven and Anuriel, who is a member of her staff. To make it short, she has absolutely no clue what's going on. It's surprising she even decided to take a side in the war, or bother going for Ulfric's side. Only explanation I have would be that Riften is too close to Windhelm and she feared losing her throne; this remains pure speculation though. Some dialogue for your entertainment:
Laila: "Anuriel, a word please."
Anuriel: "Yes, my lady?"
Laila: "It's been brought to my attention that the poison known as skooma may be present in our city. What do you know of this?"
Anuriel: "I believe it to be a falsehood perpetrated by the Empire in order to weaken the citizen's confidence in your ability to rule."
Laila: "Excellent, then they'll be no need to devote any resources to stopping it. Thank you, Anuriel. That will be all."
Laila: "Harrald, I have need of you."
Harrald: "Yes mother? What is it?"
Laila: "This situation with the sewers beneath the city. I hear people have entered this place and have gone missing. Do you know of this?"
Harrald: "Yes, I've heard such things. Anuriel assures me they're just fabrications and there's nothing down there save a few stray skeever."
Laila: "Well, make sure we keep the patrols out night and day, just to be certain."
Laila: "Maven! Always a pleasure to receive you. What can I help you with today?"
Maven: "Thank you, Laila. I wanted to discuss the protection of my shipments." OR "I'm certain you're aware of the loss I sustained a fortnight ago."
Laila: "Yes, indeed. An entire caravan shipment of your mead taken by Imperial soldiers. What of it?"
Maven: "Well, I'm also certain you're aware that our own city guard failed to provide the protection required to ensure safe passage of the shipment."
Laila: "Indeed. We lost three soldiers in that attack. A sad day for Riften."
Maven: "I have payments to make you realize. If I can't make them, I can't make Black-Briar Mead." OR "Quite. To be brief, I need compensation for the lost shipment. Since Riften was responsible for it, Riften should pay for it."
Laila: "We... don't have enough to..."
Maven: "Laila, Riften is my home, but if my meadery can't be safe here, I'll just move it elsewhere."
Laila: "No, that won't be necessary. You'll have compensation for your loss."
Maven: "Thank you, Laila."
I checked for more dialogue about her but obviously even her people could care less about her, and her steward and bodyguard are too occupied with their affair I'm afraid. It's surprising Maven didn't just have her killed instead of waiting for the Legion to arrive first.
Last but not least, Korir from Winterhold. Mocking mages and elves and badmouthing them whenever he can, but has one as steward which everyone is afraid of just because he's a dark elf so they believe he has connections to the College. He also believes a fancy circlet improves Winterhold's prestige. He also encourages his son to play "Hunt the Elf". He's also adamant about who caused the Great Collapse, look here:
Few will admit it, but we know the truth about the Great Collapse.
The College is the worst thing that's ever happened to Winterhold, maybe to Skyrim.
Those cursed mages... It's their fault Winterhold is gone.
Stay clear of that College, if you know what's good for you. Nothing but foul deeds behind those walls.
Some dialogue:
Thaena: "That... wizard is still at the Inn. I can't believe Dagur allows him to stay there."
Korir: "This is what it's come to. No one seems to care what they've done to our home."
Thaena: "It's clear that memories are far too short."
Korir: "And it's clear money matters more to Dagur than honor."
And I won't even start with Ulfric. His Jarl-fail-level is off the chart.
But if the people above sound like good rulers to you, and you agree that Skyrim deserves them, then you're definitely better off as Stormcloak.
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TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
And another enters the fray.
Skald arguing within his court means nothing, debates will happen, and obviously he'll be unpopular with the citizens because he's commiting more to the war. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and until democracy emerges on Tamriel things like that will happen. I'm sure the citizens of the Imperial City were thrilled when Mede put the Empire above their well-being and left them to suffer at the hands of the Dominion but it was the right decision in the end.
Laila's doing her best to look out for the Rift, she has to cater to Maven or else the whole city sinks financially. Besides, better her than Maven.
Winterhold is pretty much irrelevant, and I'm 99.9% certain the Great Collapse was the College's fault. I do wish he'd move on, but he doesn't really have the resources to do anything until the war's over at least. The Helm is comparable to what the Jagged Crown will do. Besides, it not like he commits anything but a few Septims for a visiting adventurer to retrieve it.
Ulfric can't run Eastmarch perfectly, he doesn't have a general to fight his war while he acts as Jarl. Im guessing you're talking about the segregation of Windhelm, and theres a lot more to it than just Ulfric being racist.
A brief summary of the Imperial Jarls now:
Igmund: Made a total mess of the Forsworn situation, period.
Ravencrone: As unimportant as Morthal is, she seems disliked by the majority of her town. Jorgen complains about Sorli too but no one else does, so I guess he's just a complainer.
Siddgier: Do I even need to say anything about this guy? Probably the worst Jarl in the game.
Elisif: Pretty much all her decisions are (wisely so) shot down by her court and Tullius, and it's obvious she has little to no grasp on politics.
Ivory
Let's Player
You underestimate the pride Imperials have for their Empires. Abnur Tharn had to abandon his own Emperor. Betray his friends and serve Mannimarco, The King of Worms to continue what was left of the dying Empire. Abnur was not a good man, but his actions saved countless lives, and with his choice, helped the Vestige defeat Molag Bal.
While Tharn himself is irrelevant, never underestimate an Imperial's loyalty to their empire. I'm more than certain there are more than just Tharn and Mede's examples of having to chose the harder path to protect their Empires.
She's no better than Maven. She abuses her Court Mage, forcing her to look to see if her son who she's all but exiled for not supporting Ulfric is cursed for having a different view of the man.
Wylandriah: "Do you realize how delicate the experiment is you've interrupted by sending for me? I may need to throw out the components and start again."
Laila: "How dare you take that kind of tone. You're in service to me, remember?"
Wylandriah: "I'm sorry my lady. The stresses of all this research... it's becoming more than I can bear."
Laila: "You're forgiven. Now, I want to know if you've made any progress with my son. Is he cursed? Has he been possessed?"
Wylandriah: "Sorry, my lady. I've been looking but I'm convinced Saerlund says truly believes what he is saying."
Laila: "Very well. Keep at it. You may go."
Spoken like an arrogant member of the Stormcloaks. Here you have a Jarl willing to fight for the Stormcloak name, and you call his entire city irrelevant? Last I recall, there's a fort that's owned by Stormcloaks during the events of the Civil War near winterhold that the Imperials need to take over just slightly south of Winterhold. Who's citizens do you think protect it? Windhelm's? Because I seriously doubt Ulfric would send his own troops who are there to protect him to a fort all the way out there when he has a city to the north willing to fight for him.
Also, your assumption on the College of Winterhold has no basis, evidence or anything except 100% speculation. The College themselves speak of what happened while the Jarl just says "I don't know what happened BUT THE COLLEGE DID IT." I'm more inclined to believe the Arch-Mage who was alive at the time, over a Nord who is the prime example of why the Ancient Nords would facepalm at the sight of the Stormcloaks who disregard magic when they had some of the most powerful magic back then. Enough to wipe out TWO entire races of Elves.
TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
Not sure what you mean, here... I was comparing Skald's decision to focus more on the war than Dawnstar to Mede's decision to abandon the capital in the hopes of returning to reclaim it, which was proven to be the right choice. I'm sure that the Empire has very loyal subjects.
Just because she's a bad employer and mother doesn't mean she's a bad Jarl.
Why should I sugarcoat it? Winterhold's population is gone, their economy gone, and everyone's too afraid of the College for anyone to go near the place. They can't even field all of their own guard force: "Hard to believe I ever complained about Riften being cold."
Winterhold is strategically important to Ulfric, his Northern border is exposed without it, so yes, he would send troops to defend it.
Care to offer your explanation on the Great Collapse then? I find the Red Mountain story extremely far-fetched, and there's no other reason provided for it. I don't know why you think the Arch-Mage would be forthcoming about the information. Many mages you can interact with during Skyrim at the college perform very reckless experiments, so I find it more likely than a tsunami caused by a volcano that erupted over a 100 years before.
Magic has fallen out of favour all across Tamriel since the Oblivion Crisis, even the Mages Guild fell apart because of it.
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Hmmm. Well, as any geologist would tell you, volcanoes are built *over time* from pressure exerted by internal forces of super-heated gas and liquid magma expanding upwards thru the crust.
Think about that for a moment.
What else do these natural forces produce? Earthquakes. Undersea Volcanoes are more common than Volcanoes above water level. What do undersea Volcanoes produce? Earthquakes > Explosions > Massive Tidal Waves.
So, let's see now. There's a mod out there which makes Red Mountain visible from Skyrim. We don't need it, however this could help you get a visual. Winterhold's location would make it vulnerable to say an after shock affect of the Red Mountain eruption. Even if it's 100 years later on, that pressure has still been building around Red Mountain. And a similar *undersea* release could have caused the great disaster.
The Mages Guild has been rocky for a while yet you've given us a gross over simplification. The Mages Guild didn't fall apart because people don't like Magic. The Mages Guild split OVER the use of Magic (and politics as well I'm sure). The split was because of the Mages Guild's high, long lasting status in society which made people take enough interest in it to try and change it.
You make it sound like the Mage's Guild was dissolved, that no one uses Magic obviously, there are two *competing* Mage Associations in Cyrodil alone. Magic is also still popular in the Thalmor's part of Tamriel and their High Level Mages have to be taught from somewhere. The only place we can truly see where Magic appears to be shunned is in parts of Skyrim and maybe Hammerfell. The Nords do frown on Magic, persecute those trying to learn it, yet the Stormcloak Jarls don't mind placing their orders for service.
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LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
So... Ulfric doesn't want a General. You said it yourself... "he doesn't have a General to fight his war..."
That's right, because it's *his* war. Ulfric even tells you sometime around the Battle for Whiterun not to question Galmar or himself.
You don't understand this do you? This is Ulfric's fight. It's an "I hate you all" "Everyone can go to hell" personal vendetta death-wish against the Empire.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter why you join the cloaks or what they fight for, it's Ulfric's fight. Never forget that.
I learned that during my very first visit to Windhelm. Which is another reason I went back to Whiterun and then onto Solitude.
Let Ulfric fight his own wars. Strangely I do feel the Empire is fighting for us. Not sure why, it just seems like the Empire is warmer and more optimistic. Jarls are 1000x better too. Like that chic who will be using Imperial funds to rebuild Winterhold once she's Jarl.
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Another thing.
Please don't try and lay blame for Markarth solely on Jarl Igmund. The situation is infinitesimally more complicated than just, "Oh well it's his fault, he made a total mess of the Hold... yada yada yada."
No, he did no such thing. Because the Forsworn murdered his father, (the Jarl at the time) Igmund called forth a Crusade to get the Hold back in Nord hands. Ulfric - your boy - agreed to spearhead this Crusade however things got out of control because Ulfric started making more demands after the Hold was recovered, turning the violence against the civilian population instead of just the Forsworn. Jarl Igmund lit the fuse and Ulfric set off the bomb which blew that situation even further into Chaos.
The Stormcloaks butchered a number of Reachmen / Imperials at Karthwastern. Was a massacre according to Leg Rikke at Season Unending. Of which Galmar did not want to take any responsibility, blaming everything on the Empire.
Seriously FFS. Who wants a Gov in Skyrim that refuses to acknowledge it's mistakes yet everything is always someone else's fault. Even the Empire admits it's faults.
Eastmarch is a 3rd world slum fest because of the hope and change brought by Ulfric to his Nords and sub Nord subjects. There are tomes which describe how things changed for the worse in Windhelm after Ulfric became Jarl. The hold has continued to slide into obscurity under his leadership and there is nobody to blame for this but him and every thing he touches turns to blood and suffering. If Whiterun can be Ind of the Empire, have Freedom of Speech and Religion AND stay Neutral with the Empire, what's stopping East Skyrim from doing the same?
Ulfric, rather than be a good Administrator and take care of his people first, provoked the Empire and instigated Civil War with a bunch of bystanders who couldn't give two plopss otherwise about Talos or him.
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