Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It be stupid to make an enemy of Skyrim while the 2nd Great War is around the corner. It does seem like things hinge on Hammerfell, but it's not like they'll side with the Dominion. It's more like how much they can rebuild and prepare.

Provinces don't do things logically. Was it smart that Skyrim attacked Morrowind, mainly House Redoran during the Oblivion Crisis? If Daedra weren't bad enough, you had Nords from the North. Was the Alliance Wars smart? No.

When provinces break off, they generally lose that single focus of the Empire and do their own thing.

Also, the Redguards are warriors but aren't very keen on the military. They don't enjoy marching and that sorta stuff. They prefer adventuring and clans. I'd say that's a united Hammerfell's weakness, how well their army can function together as an army, not individual warriors.

All the Knightly Religious Orders would come into play. Think I'd rather face the Dominion's army, than thousands of fanatical expertly trained holy knights charging at me. Their religion is the one that has the God of War, I think.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
And the Dominion may have been able to move fast enough to capture the city with few enough losses to continue their advance or fortify the city enough to hold it. It seems like Titus's escape was lucky, wouldn't work everytime or every king who's ever had their city taken would've done it.

We don't know how fast they may have been able to move, even still they weren't expecting Titus to abandon the city, it was more than luck. Many rulers do have means to escape, the Septim's had the sewers. Not every King would abandon their city.

I'm pointing out the Stormcloaks are on level with the empire on experience, if not more considering their militaristic culture.

Except they're not on level, they're fighting the weakest the Empire has to offer. Empire has highly trained Legions, Battlemages, Rangers, Spies, Assassins, Naval warships etc.

It doesn't matter if they're a Militaristic culture (Though they're more of a warrior society, since it isn't so much tactics but the strength and honor of the individual) half of Cyrodiil is a Militaristic Culture. The Colovians are the more Nordic Imperials, and majority of their nobility are Military Officers.

And they had to discover the guy worshipped Talos when the Thalmor (living in the same building as him) hadnt.

Did it ever occur they might have likely learned that during the Markarth Incident? When Talos worship was restored and Igmund's uncle was present.

They know the war was what the Thalmor wanted, they also know an independant Skyrim is something they don't want.

They don't know. They believe they're fighting for their own reasons, and being independent is to show the elves they won't be slaves. They have absolutely no idea what the Thalmor want or don't want.

Well, like Fasendil and I have said, if it wasn't Ulfric it'd be someone else.

So you both assume, for all we know that "someone else" might have been diplomatic.

I think YOU said it in one of our discussions a while back, when you were saying about how an independent Skyrim would fall apart from the inside. Forgive me if I'm wrong (I don't really feel like sifting through pages of civil war debate) but I think you said something along the lines of "there's a reason Skyrim's always had a puppet King."

Well if I did say that, I was mistaken. The Empire does not decide who becomes the High King, though Ulfric is against how the Moot is currently established. Which hasn't changed since the First War of Succession, so maybe he seeks to go real "Old Days".

Remove Ulfric from the picture, good chance he won't actually live, neither would Tullius. Without Ulfric, do you believe the Stormcloak Jarls are suited to rule this new independent country?

Clans are pretty much non-existent now, or they're all rich and haven't lifted a sword in generations.

Clans are still there, every city has the major clans. They're rich, which means they can hire others or rally septs of their clans.

Why you believe Skyrim's few divisions indicate they would crash and burn when:
-Forebears and Crowns for centuries in Hammerfell

Which left Hammerfell greatly weakened, and open to invasion several times. That division allowed the Dominion to dispatch their disunited forces without much effort and control huge parts of their province for nearly a decade and during the Imperial Simulacrum allowed the Nords to take many miles of their land, including cities.

-Dozens of bickering City States in High Rock

Lost the major city of Wayrest the so called 'Jewel of the Bay' to corsairs. Politically unreliable to do much outside of their province.

-Elsweyr's dissolution and brief independence of a few city-states

Caused many issues, think the TES novels briefly mentioned them... and allowed the Thalmor to take hold.

-Morrowind's great houses constantly at odds with one another

Which caused a pl***load of issues throughout their history.

-Cyrodiil's counties warring and maintaining independence from one another for years on and off and division of Nibenay and the Colovian Estates

Which is when an Empire has fallen, which leads to dark times for many in Tamriel. Didn't Tamriel nearly get pulled into Coldharbour during one of these periods? That isn't a good defense.

It's not like Skyrim would expect Hammerfell to look after them or anything, it'd be a military alliance, that would force High Rock on board with them. Skyrim is CURRENTLY guarded by militia, you cannot ignore that Ulfric would be building an army of warriors who know a thing or two about war. They are unable to aid the Stormcloaks because 1. They are still rebuilding from their war with the Dominion, and 2. They don't share a border with any of the Stormcloak controlled holds so communication and transportation would be basically impossible.

What does Hammerfell get out of this alliance? The Stormcloaks don't have a trained army, and won't anytime soon. Skyrim has just been ravaged by Civil War and Dragons, the war hasn't completely ended. Another Legion force is getting ready to march into Skyrim/Ulfric could become a martyr for remaining rebels.

For your two points. 1. We don't know what they're doing, even if they're rebuilding it doesn't stop Military action and they wouldn't need huge numbers of soldiers, the Legion is quite weak in Skyrim.

2. a) High Rock doesn't share a border either, yet they're hoping to hear anything from the Bretons. (Though it didn't sound like Ulfric actually reached out, but was more hoping they would hear of his rebellion and help them)

b) It is called ships, Windhelm and Dawnstar are ports. If an Altmer woman can get passage to Ulfric's city from Summerset Isle, a couple of ships from Hammerfell can't drop soldiers? If I remember right there actually is a ship from Hammerfell docked in Windhelm, so it isn't impossible. Hammerfell bordering Imperial controlled Holds would be a benefit, it is called flanking.

That's not a Redguard account, and even so, in my hypothetical stituation they'd be allying with half that Empire anyway.

The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire

Your hypothetical situation is great, except it overlooks the small detail of... Nearly the entire Imperial Army from that half is in Cyrodiil. So my hypothetical situation, they would give the finger to High Rock and Skyrim and side with the province who has the forces they wanted to join with.

Now my points:

1) We have a trained army in position already.
2) We weren't just ravaged by Dragons and various civil war battles.
3) We can reach the Aldmeri Dominion, and we have a navy that doesn't have to be built last minute. That helps when your foe's capital is an island.

The Dominion seems to have a lot of power over the Empire, what with Elenwen inviting herself to High Hrothgar as an example off the top of my head.

Yet Tullius can tell her to piss off in Helgan, most like. Elenwen was simply there so the Empire doesn't grant them free Talos worship again. Unofficially, she was probably there to try disrupt both sides so they don't agree to peace. She does take jabs at the Stormcloaks and Empire.

I wouldn't say they have a lot of power over the Empire, if they did, Imperial victory wouldn't undermine their entire position.

I don't think the Empire would invade the Dominion over not being allowed to grant independence to a province.

Wars have been fought for less. We conquered Tamriel just about twice for no real reason. Hell, we sailed all the way to Akavir and tried to invade that for absolutely no reason.

But seriously, I wasn't talking about invading. The Thalmor can't tell the Empire not to release Skyrim, because they'd do it just out of spite then.

Eastmarch leaves Narulzabur alone, sure they don't like it being there but they let them be.

Last time I checked, Eastmarch was fighting a rebellion. If they apparently don't have enough men to investigate a murder, they're not about to attack an Orc stronghold at that moment in time. Besides, the Stormcloaks would all die in such an attempt. Though that wouldn't be too bad, go for it son, show those green mean fighting machines Nord steel.

Also I believe we were talking about the Nords unfairness towards orcs, while you just said it was orcs who are "pests" to the Nords.

...What? Are you telling me a book written by a Nord who calls them pests for not simply dying and being driven out of Skyrim, because the Nords don't like Orc Strongholds in their realm. Has nothing to do with Nord unfairness to Orcs? Really?

There's a reason Orsinium keeps getting destroyed.

Keeps getting? What twice? Windhelm has been sacked twice, three times if the Imperials win the Civil War.

They almost certainly would've moved faster. They may have ignored more of Western Hammerfell and wouldn't have bothered crossing the Alik'r. If they had prepared from the start to take the Imperial City instead of halfway through when the legion was starting to get their act together that also would've tipped the scale.

Types of soldiers has nothing to do with combat experience. That has more to do with their small numbers than success as an army.

I doubt Ulfric was on familiar terms with the steward. Even so, if the WGC's not in place, most Nords will worship Talos, there's no way of knowing if someone will give up worship of him if pressed on it.

Diplomatic? C'mon, these are angry Nords we're talking about. I doubt it would get much better than Ulfric.

I'd still think the Empire has a hand in the moot, and they'll definatly back someone who would aid their interests. Anyways as for Torygg being a puppet king, Sayma, the operator of Bits and Pieces in Solitude: "And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that." From someone who lived under him. You asked for no Stormcloak biased opinions on the matter but it's not like any Imperials will admit to it. And if you wanna talk puppets, one word: Elisif.

I would say there's a few wise Stormcloak Jarls, the only strike against most of them is that they're old. Some of them probably have children though. Ulfric is probably getting busy on making an heir, and he does seem like he'd be popular with the ladies, lol.

I still don't think fourth era Skyrim clans hold enough power to divide the nation.

Yet all those nations are still standing. Hammerfell is weakened, but now the fate of the world essentially hangs on how effective they'll be. High Rock is still important enough for Ulfric to be hoping for help from them. We don't know if the Thalmor have been a bad thing for the Khajiit, putting a new government in place can't always go smoothly but it doesn't seem like things have gone too poorly for them under the Dominion. Morrowind's current state has nothing to do with politics, they would be a world power right now if not for Red Mountain which could've happened to anyone. Cyrodiil is still divided occasionly under an Empire as well, the Alessians had plenty of problems and the Septim's had a few civil wars.

Nowhere does it say that Empire has to be based in Cyrodiil. Things went well for Ysgramor's dynasty and the Camoran's dynasty, for example.

For starters they gain an ally that will soon be an effective force. Stop dancing around it, Nord's have good generals, soldiers and overall motivation. Secondly, a trade partner with many resources an arid nation wouldn't have. By your logic, what does the Empire gain from trying to keep Skyrim as a province? The Legion will not be marching into Stormcloak Skyrim, Pale Pass is still blocked and it'd be unwise to waste anymore resources on a province who'll no longer submit to Imperial rule.

I don't blame the other provinces for not helping the Stormcloaks. Outside of Skyrim the rebellion is probably not taken seriously if anyone's even familiar with the situation. The other problem with another province intervening would be they'd be effectively declaring war on the Empire if they're leaving their borders. Trying to declare independence for your own nation is one thing, helping to declare it for another is another. They either don't expect the Stormcloaks to win, or they're waiting to see how it plays out before picking a side.

The Cyrodillic part of that army, the other legions went home. High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim's military together would easily outnumber the remaining Cyrodillic one.

Skyrim's navy will not be last second, depending on when the Great War starts. There are probably Legion ships that will be abandoned, and there are probably warships already belonging to Skyrim. Still, Nords are good craftsmen and have the resources and sailors to make a formidable navy.
"Nords are also natural seamen, and have benefitted from nautical trade since their first migrations from Atmora." -UESP

I don't know, I've never really seen an example of the Empire being able to tell the Dominion what to do but plenty of times the other way around. In Helgen it's different because it sounds like Elenwen (according to the Concordat) actually did have the right to take custody of Ulfric, and Tullius went against it. She was still part of "the Imperial Delegation" at High Hrothgar when Tullius clearly didn't want her to be.

Akavir was to take attention off the internal struggles of the Empire and it was Tiber's "destiny" apparantly. Anyway maybe over a lesser war, but not what will almost certainly be the most destructive war in Tamrielic history.

Again, rebellion or not, Nords and Orcs want each other to leave each other alone. Your right, Nords aren't idiots, there is no reason to wipe out the Orc strongholds, considering the waste of men, time and resources that would go into it.

Orc raiders have harassed North-West Tamriel humans for centuries. I'm not talking about the orc's inability to defend Orsinium, I'm talking about it was Orcs who angered the Bretons and Redguards into doing it.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
It be stupid to make an enemy of Skyrim while the 2nd Great War is around the corner. It does seem like things hinge on Hammerfell, but it's not like they'll side with the Dominion. It's more like how much they can rebuild and prepare.

Provinces don't do things logically. Was it smart that Skyrim attacked Morrowind, mainly House Redoran during the Oblivion Crisis? If Daedra weren't bad enough, you had Nords from the North. Was the Alliance Wars smart? No.

When provinces break off, they generally lose that single focus of the Empire and do their own thing.

Also, the Redguards are warriors but aren't very keen on the military. They don't enjoy marching and that sorta stuff. They prefer adventuring and clans. I'd say that's a united Hammerfell's weakness, how well their army can function together as an army, not individual warriors.

All the Knightly Religious Orders would come into play. Think I'd rather face the Dominion's army, than thousands of fanatical expertly trained holy knights charging at me. Their religion is the one that has the God of War, I think.

Skyrim's attack on the Redoran is a rumor in Cyrodiil. Even if was true, it wasn't like they declared war on them or anything, it'd would've been bandits or raiders or pirates. Not an official military. Adril Arano has a pretty good knowledge of what went down in Morrowind during the OC and makes no mention of Nords.

You mean Ebonarm, or whatever he's called? Is he still, like, a thing? Has he been mentioned since Daggerfall? I'm not arguing with you here, I've always been really confused on that guy. I don't think he's a part of the Yokudan religon. That's still a good point however.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They almost certainly would've moved faster. They may have ignored more of Western Hammerfell and wouldn't have bothered crossing the Alik'r. If they had prepared from the start to take the Imperial City instead of halfway through when the legion was starting to get their act together that also would've tipped the scale.

Except that would leave them exposed, a Legion General was regrouping inside Hammerfell. Even if they moved faster, they were not expecting Titus to abandon the city. He would simply retreat north, and the Thalmor would believe the war to be just about over and try get him to surrender, which they thought he was doing prior to Red Ring. Just he'd return with an even larger army, since they've ignored the Crowns/Forebears and the Legions of Hammerfell/High Rock.

Types of soldiers has nothing to do with combat experience. That has more to do with their small numbers than success as an army.

It does when they're veterans too. The Stormcloaks do not have battlemages, which is an important tool against the Aldmeri Dominion. The Redguards aren't fond of magic much either, and if you're relying on the Bretons it is a mistake.

I doubt Ulfric was on familiar terms with the steward. Even so, if the WGC's not in place, most Nords will worship Talos, there's no way of knowing if someone will give up worship of him if pressed on it.

They hired him, he spent some time in Markarth before the Thalmor arrived demanding his arrest. Devout followers of Talos would not simply stop worshipping.

Diplomatic? C'mon, these are angry Nords we're talking about. I doubt it would get much better than Ulfric.

Nords aren't above peaceful solutions.

I'd still think the Empire has a hand in the moot, and they'll definatly back someone who would aid their interests. Anyways as for Torygg being a puppet king, Sayma, the operator of Bits and Pieces in Solitude: "And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that." From someone who lived under him. You asked for no Stormcloak biased opinions on the matter but it's not like any Imperials will admit to it. And if you wanna talk puppets, one word: Elisif.

Empire doesn't have any hand in the Moot. It hasn't changed since the First Era, and they don't decide who becomes High King. The bloodline hasn't been broken for a long time. The Empire may try to back a Jarl, and try influence supporters. But, so do the Stormcloaks who back Ulfric. Probably why the Imperials backed a republic in Hammerfell, they have no influence in a hereditary governance.

Giving speeches about the Empire doesn't make you a puppet, that was his public image, Sayma is a shopkeeper. Torygg greatly respected Ulfric, and admired him. He was impressed and wanted to hear more about independence, and apparently if Ulfric directly asked him to stand up, he may have.

Elisif didn't cause the "Kingless" prophecy. She also isn't decided to become High Queen, only that she has claim, same as the other Jarls. Ulfric also uses her as a puppet.

I would say there's a few wise Stormcloak Jarls, the only strike against most of them is that they're old. Some of them probably have children though. Ulfric is probably getting busy on making an heir, and he does seem like he'd be popular with the ladies, lol.

Like two. Don't rely just on Ulfric Stormcloak, he does die 50% of the time. So chances are he might not live.

I still don't think fourth era Skyrim clans hold enough power to divide the nation.

Why not? Their time in the Empire has increased their wealth and political status within the various Holds.

Yet all those nations are still standing.

Many due to the Empire.

Hammerfell is weakened, but now the fate of the world essentially hangs on how effective they'll be.

Yet how would the Great War have turned if they were united?

High Rock is still important enough for Ulfric to be hoping for help from them.

He'll be hoping for awhile. Bretons do not care for Nords, besides they're busy bickering and have problems with corsairs. High Rock didn't even send their province army during the Great War, only the Legions stationed there. I doubt they'll care for Ulfric's rebellion, or the Nord focused cause.

We don't know if the Thalmor have been a bad thing for the Khajiit, putting a new government in place can't always go smoothly but it doesn't seem like things have gone too poorly for them under the Dominion.

They did assassinate the Mane, the Thalmor haven't been a good thing for much of own race and the Bosmer. I'm sure the Khajiit face some issues, one of the Caravan's mention "Thalmor filth".

Morrowind's current state has nothing to do with politics, they would be a world power right now if not for Red Mountain which could've happened to anyone. Cyrodiil is still divided occasionly under an Empire as well, the Alessians had plenty of problems and the Septim's had a few civil wars.

Morrowind had problems before Red Mountain. Cyrodiil isn't that divided, the various counties are fine together while the Empire is running smoothly, except maybe one city during under Mede. But, mainly restless than violent.

The Alessians had problems, yes and fell. The Civil Wars the Septim's had nearly destroyed the entire Empire.

Nowhere does it say that Empire has to be based in Cyrodiil. Things went well for Ysgramor's dynasty and the Camoran's dynasty, for example.

No, but it is the best location for it. Especially due to White-Gold Tower, which you do want to keep under your control.

Ysgramor's Dynasty controlled Skyrim, Morrowind, parts of Cyrodiil and High Rock. Just because it went well back in the Merethic and First Era, doesn't mean it will repeat. Camoran Dynasty wasn't an Empire, and that is the Bosmer. What works for the Bosmer =/= What works for Nords.

Besides, they had to rely on the First and Second Aldmeri Dominion's to effectively control Valenwood after the Second Empire had broken their influence by granting independence to the lesser nobles.

For starters they gain an ally that will soon be an effective force. Stop dancing around it, Nord's have good generals, soldiers and overall motivation. Secondly, a trade partner with many resources an arid nation wouldn't have.

I'm not dancing around that Nords can have good Generals, soldiers and motivation. But, they won't soon have all that. Their goals require time, a lot of time, since they're rebuilding their province and training an invasion force. What will you do if the Great War breaks out within a year?

The Stormcloaks are stretched out until they increase their numbers. Ulfric is controlling Skyrim with soldiers from the Old Holds.

Hammerfell trades with the Empire still, and they would have close trading ties with High Rock. Skyrim is rebuilding their entire economy under the Stormcloaks, to make them "self reliant".

By your logic, what does the Empire gain from trying to keep Skyrim as a province?

By my logic?

1) Preservation of the Empire.
2) Passage from Cyrodiil to High Rock on foot.
3) Resources to mass produce weapons and armor.
4) A staging ground into Morrowind.
5) Access to the Orc Kingdom.
6) Taxes and other income.
7) Population to draw recruits for the Legions
8) Upholding their oath to Imperial citizens resisting Ulfric Stormcloak.

The Legion will not be marching into Stormcloak Skyrim, Pale Pass is still blocked and it'd be unwise to waste anymore resources on a province who'll no longer submit to Imperial rule.

Dragons were only legend, and elves once ruled Skyrim. Just because something is, doesn't mean it will always be. In this case, it is called a shovel. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloak_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)

Except not everyone supports Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. I'm sure the Altmer, Bosmer, Bretons, Argonians etc. all said the same thing, about not submitting the first two times.

I don't blame the other provinces for not helping the Stormcloaks. Outside of Skyrim the rebellion is probably not taken seriously if anyone's even familiar with the situation. The other problem with another province intervening would be they'd be effectively declaring war on the Empire if they're leaving their borders. Trying to declare independence for your own nation is one thing, helping to declare it for another is another. They either don't expect the Stormcloaks to win, or they're waiting to see how it plays out before picking a side.

It isn't taken seriously inside Skyrim for some people.

The Cyrodillic part of that army, the other legions went home. High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim's military together would easily outnumber the remaining Cyrodillic one.

No. They did return to the provinces after the Great War, until they were recalled south. When Tullius says "Majority of the Legion is tied down on the border" he isn't talking about "Cyrodilic quarter".

Besides Legions, the Empire does employ huge numbers of mercenaries.

Skyrim's navy will not be last second, depending on when the Great War starts. There are probably Legion ships that will be abandoned, and there are probably warships already belonging to Skyrim. Still, Nords are good craftsmen and have the resources and sailors to make a formidable navy.
"Nords are also natural seamen, and have benefitted from nautical trade since their first migrations from Atmora." -UESP

Skyrim sailing to the Aldmeri Dominion would be beyond stupidity. Between the time it will take, storms and what not. They will be facing the Aldmeri Navy, who as masters of naval warfare. Besides the standard naval battles, Battlemages once again come into play. Nords might be good craftsmen, but they're also very superstitious, and it is considered very bad luck to have a Mage on your ship. Given the current feeling about magic, I doubt they will get over that.

I don't know, I've never really seen an example of the Empire being able to tell the Dominion what to do but plenty of times the other way around. In Helgen it's different because it sounds like Elenwen (according to the Concordat) actually did have the right to take custody of Ulfric, and Tullius went against it. She was still part of "the Imperial Delegation" at High Hrothgar when Tullius clearly didn't want her to be.

You're supposed to have an option to be able to get Imperial orders to release that Gray-Mane fellow from the Thalmor.

Oh and for what the Empire was doing with Valenwood under Titus Mede. “Thalmor agents continue to harass the refugee communities in Sentinel and Balfiera—there has been a series of murders in the latter we can pretty confidently assign to them. The pattern is typical—the victims were all of mixed blood or had associations considered by the Aldmeri Dominion to be unclean. It’s much worse in Valenwood—our supplies are no longer reliably getting to the rebels there. Sixty were caught and executed last week, along with four of our own men. There’s a leak we [the Penitus Oculatus] don’t know about, someplace. They know too much about our movements. ... [there are] no Thalmor connections to the east at all.”

Orc raiders have harassed North-West Tamriel humans for centuries. I'm not talking about the orc's inability to defend Orsinium, I'm talking about it was Orcs who angered the Bretons and Redguards into doing it.

Actually, humans attacked the Orcs when they first arrived. It has nothing to do with Orcs angering them, they simply don't like Orcs. Many consider them beasts or creatures. Nord raiders have harassed provinces for thousands of years, maybe the Empire should oppress them on the scale Orcs endure/d. Slaughtering them for simply being, destroying their cities and treating them as pests.

It is fine to do that, cause they "angered" you for existing.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Skyrim's attack on the Redoran is a rumor in Cyrodiil. Even if was true, it wasn't like they declared war on them or anything, it'd would've been bandits or raiders or pirates. Not an official military. Adril Arano has a pretty good knowledge of what went down in Morrowind during the OC and makes no mention of Nords.

It is true, it just comes up under rumor conversation. They mention they've heard Nord Warriors and Orc Mercenaries are assaulting Redoran. How else do you think they gave that island to Morrowind in the first place?

Adril Arando makes no mention that the Argonians stopped the Empire getting into Morrowind, and reclaiming the areas the Argonians conquered. Instead, the evil Empire abandoned them to the wolves.

You mean Ebonarm, or whatever he's called? Is he still, like, a thing? Has he been mentioned since Daggerfall? I'm not arguing with you here, I've always been really confused on that guy. I don't think he's a part of the Yokudan religon. That's still a good point however.

I don't know actually, there are so many different Gods who only have one small mention.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
They almost certainly would've moved faster. They may have ignored more of Western Hammerfell and wouldn't have bothered crossing the Alik'r. If they had prepared from the start to take the Imperial City instead of halfway through when the legion was starting to get their act together that also would've tipped the scale.

Except that would leave them exposed, a Legion General was regrouping inside Hammerfell. Even if they moved faster, they were not expecting Titus to abandon the city. He would simply retreat north, and the Thalmor would believe the war to be just about over and try get him to surrender, which they thought he was doing prior to Red Ring. Just he'd return with an even larger army, since they've ignored the Crowns/Forebears and the Legions of Hammerfell/High Rock.

Types of soldiers has nothing to do with combat experience. That has more to do with their small numbers than success as an army.

It does when they're veterans too. The Stormcloaks do not have battlemages, which is an important tool against the Aldmeri Dominion. The Redguards aren't fond of magic much either, and if you're relying on the Bretons it is a mistake.

I doubt Ulfric was on familiar terms with the steward. Even so, if the WGC's not in place, most Nords will worship Talos, there's no way of knowing if someone will give up worship of him if pressed on it.

They hired him, he spent some time in Markarth before the Thalmor arrived demanding his arrest. Devout followers of Talos would not simply stop worshipping.

Diplomatic? C'mon, these are angry Nords we're talking about. I doubt it would get much better than Ulfric.

Nords aren't above peaceful solutions.

I'd still think the Empire has a hand in the moot, and they'll definatly back someone who would aid their interests. Anyways as for Torygg being a puppet king, Sayma, the operator of Bits and Pieces in Solitude: "And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that." From someone who lived under him. You asked for no Stormcloak biased opinions on the matter but it's not like any Imperials will admit to it. And if you wanna talk puppets, one word: Elisif.

Empire doesn't have any hand in the Moot. It hasn't changed since the First Era, and they don't decide who becomes High King. The bloodline hasn't been broken for a long time. The Empire may try to back a Jarl, and try influence supporters. But, so do the Stormcloaks who back Ulfric. Probably why the Imperials backed a republic in Hammerfell, they have no influence in a hereditary governance.

Giving speeches about the Empire doesn't make you a puppet, that was his public image, Sayma is a shopkeeper. Torygg greatly respected Ulfric, and admired him. He was impressed and wanted to hear more about independence, and apparently if Ulfric directly asked him to stand up, he may have.

Elisif didn't cause the "Kingless" prophecy. She also isn't decided to become High Queen, only that she has claim, same as the other Jarls. Ulfric also uses her as a puppet.

I would say there's a few wise Stormcloak Jarls, the only strike against most of them is that they're old. Some of them probably have children though. Ulfric is probably getting busy on making an heir, and he does seem like he'd be popular with the ladies, lol.

Like two. Don't rely just on Ulfric Stormcloak, he does die 50% of the time. So chances are he might not live.

I still don't think fourth era Skyrim clans hold enough power to divide the nation.

Why not? Their time in the Empire has increased their wealth and political status within the various Holds.

Yet all those nations are still standing.

Many due to the Empire.

Hammerfell is weakened, but now the fate of the world essentially hangs on how effective they'll be.

Yet how would the Great War have turned if they were united?

High Rock is still important enough for Ulfric to be hoping for help from them.

He'll be hoping for awhile. Bretons do not care for Nords, besides they're busy bickering and have problems with corsairs. High Rock didn't even send their province army during the Great War, only the Legions stationed there. I doubt they'll care for Ulfric's rebellion, or the Nord focused cause.

We don't know if the Thalmor have been a bad thing for the Khajiit, putting a new government in place can't always go smoothly but it doesn't seem like things have gone too poorly for them under the Dominion.

They did assassinate the Mane, the Thalmor haven't been a good thing for much of own race and the Bosmer. I'm sure the Khajiit face some issues, one of the Caravan's mention "Thalmor filth".

Morrowind's current state has nothing to do with politics, they would be a world power right now if not for Red Mountain which could've happened to anyone. Cyrodiil is still divided occasionly under an Empire as well, the Alessians had plenty of problems and the Septim's had a few civil wars.

Morrowind had problems before Red Mountain. Cyrodiil isn't that divided, the various counties are fine together while the Empire is running smoothly, except maybe one city during under Mede. But, mainly restless than violent.

The Alessians had problems, yes and fell. The Civil Wars the Septim's had nearly destroyed the entire Empire.

Nowhere does it say that Empire has to be based in Cyrodiil. Things went well for Ysgramor's dynasty and the Camoran's dynasty, for example.

No, but it is the best location for it. Especially due to White-Gold Tower, which you do want to keep under your control.

Ysgramor's Dynasty controlled Skyrim, Morrowind, parts of Cyrodiil and High Rock. Just because it went well back in the Merethic and First Era, doesn't mean it will repeat. Camoran Dynasty wasn't an Empire, and that is the Bosmer. What works for the Bosmer =/= What works for Nords.

Besides, they had to rely on the First and Second Aldmeri Dominion's to effectively control Valenwood after the Second Empire had broken their influence by granting independence to the lesser nobles.

For starters they gain an ally that will soon be an effective force. Stop dancing around it, Nord's have good generals, soldiers and overall motivation. Secondly, a trade partner with many resources an arid nation wouldn't have.

I'm not dancing around that Nords can have good Generals, soldiers and motivation. But, they won't soon have all that. Their goals require time, a lot of time, since they're rebuilding their province and training an invasion force. What will you do if the Great War breaks out within a year?

The Stormcloaks are stretched out until they increase their numbers. Ulfric is controlling Skyrim with soldiers from the Old Holds.

Hammerfell trades with the Empire still, and they would have close trading ties with High Rock. Skyrim is rebuilding their entire economy under the Stormcloaks, to make them "self reliant".

By your logic, what does the Empire gain from trying to keep Skyrim as a province?

By my logic?

1) Preservation of the Empire.
2) Passage from Cyrodiil to High Rock on foot.
3) Resources to mass produce weapons and armor.
4) A staging ground into Morrowind.
5) Access to the Orc Kingdom.
6) Taxes and other income.
7) Population to draw recruits for the Legions
8) Upholding their oath to Imperial citizens resisting Ulfric Stormcloak.

The Legion will not be marching into Stormcloak Skyrim, Pale Pass is still blocked and it'd be unwise to waste anymore resources on a province who'll no longer submit to Imperial rule.

Dragons were only legend, and elves once ruled Skyrim. Just because something is, doesn't mean it will always be. In this case, it is called a shovel. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloak_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)

Except not everyone supports Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. I'm sure the Altmer, Bosmer, Bretons, Argonians etc. all said the same thing, about not submitting the first two times.

I don't blame the other provinces for not helping the Stormcloaks. Outside of Skyrim the rebellion is probably not taken seriously if anyone's even familiar with the situation. The other problem with another province intervening would be they'd be effectively declaring war on the Empire if they're leaving their borders. Trying to declare independence for your own nation is one thing, helping to declare it for another is another. They either don't expect the Stormcloaks to win, or they're waiting to see how it plays out before picking a side.

It isn't taken seriously inside Skyrim for some people.

The Cyrodillic part of that army, the other legions went home. High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim's military together would easily outnumber the remaining Cyrodillic one.

No. They did return to the provinces after the Great War, until they were recalled south. When Tullius says "Majority of the Legion is tied down on the border" he isn't talking about "Cyrodilic quarter".

Besides Legions, the Empire does employ huge numbers of mercenaries.

Skyrim's navy will not be last second, depending on when the Great War starts. There are probably Legion ships that will be abandoned, and there are probably warships already belonging to Skyrim. Still, Nords are good craftsmen and have the resources and sailors to make a formidable navy.
"Nords are also natural seamen, and have benefitted from nautical trade since their first migrations from Atmora." -UESP

Skyrim sailing to the Aldmeri Dominion would be beyond stupidity. Between the time it will take, storms and what not. They will be facing the Aldmeri Navy, who as masters of naval warfare. Besides the standard naval battles, Battlemages once again come into play. Nords might be good craftsmen, but they're also very superstitious, and it is considered very bad luck to have a Mage on your ship. Given the current feeling about magic, I doubt they will get over that.

I don't know, I've never really seen an example of the Empire being able to tell the Dominion what to do but plenty of times the other way around. In Helgen it's different because it sounds like Elenwen (according to the Concordat) actually did have the right to take custody of Ulfric, and Tullius went against it. She was still part of "the Imperial Delegation" at High Hrothgar when Tullius clearly didn't want her to be.

You're supposed to have an option to be able to get Imperial orders to release that Gray-Mane fellow from the Thalmor.

Oh and for what the Empire was doing with Valenwood under Titus Mede. “Thalmor agents continue to harass the refugee communities in Sentinel and Balfiera—there has been a series of murders in the latter we can pretty confidently assign to them. The pattern is typical—the victims were all of mixed blood or had associations considered by the Aldmeri Dominion to be unclean. It’s much worse in Valenwood—our supplies are no longer reliably getting to the rebels there. Sixty were caught and executed last week, along with four of our own men. There’s a leak we [the Penitus Oculatus] don’t know about, someplace. They know too much about our movements. ... [there are] no Thalmor connections to the east at all.”

Orc raiders have harassed North-West Tamriel humans for centuries. I'm not talking about the orc's inability to defend Orsinium, I'm talking about it was Orcs who angered the Bretons and Redguards into doing it.

Actually, humans attacked the Orcs when they first arrived. It has nothing to do with Orcs angering them, they simply don't like Orcs. Many consider them beasts or creatures. Nord raiders have harassed provinces for thousands of years, maybe the Empire should oppress them on the scale Orcs endure/d. Slaughtering them for simply being, destroying their cities and treating them as pests.

It is fine to do that, cause they "angered" you for existing.

And they would've been able to prepare for that had they been planning for the Imperial City from the beginning. That scenario could have also led to the Forebears and Crowns not reconciling depending on how much they ignored Hammerfell.

What makes Battlemages so essential?

I wouldn't say Raerek's a hardcore Talos worshipper, he just held on to an amulet as far as we know. Pretty much every Nord worshipped Talos before the Concordat, but not everyone does now because of it.

Half the country was calling for war, and it was something as touchy as religon on the line. As far as rebel leaders go it probably wouldn't get too much better than Ulfric.

So hypothetically if a Jarl who regularly promoted violence against the Empire, attacked Imperial travellers, spoke out against them etc. etc. and the moot elected them the Empire wouldn't step in and say "sorry, nope"? Morrowind was the only province who's policies seemed untouchable by the Imperials.

The other Jarls don't have a claim at all really, I guess the moot could elect them if they wanted to but really it's Elisif (through marriage) and Ulfric (through conquest). I'm not denying Ulfric uses her as a puppet, if she had any real power as High Queen/Jarl things would fall apart, as bad as I feel for her.

I thought we were talking about a scenario where the Stormcloaks won...?

They're rich but I don't think a lot of them have great connections with Jarls. Even so, most of the clans are pro-Stormcloak anyways.

Not Elsweyr, Morrowind, and Hammerfell.

A High Rock cut off from the Empire would leave them scared out of their minds. If an alliance was available they'd snatch it up in a second.

Is White-Gold anymore meaningful than Adamantine or Snow Throat?

Just pointing out the Camoran's and Ysgramor had success for even longer than the Septims. The Camoran's was just an example of a successful line of kings outside of Cyrodiil with no Empire.

Skyrim wouldn't go to Summerset anytime soon, it was a spur of the moment thing said by Ulfric. If the next war breaks out soon it won't be on Skyrim's doorstep, so they could still be preparing. The next war will require the overthrow of either the Thalmor or Empire so it could drag on for decades. How long do you think it would take Ulfric? 5 years, tops? The entire nation would be focused on that alone for the most part. And a High Rock/Hammerfell/Skyrim navy would be less effective the the Imperial one?

And it's possible Beth. omitted that option because of what I said.

Recruitment will increase, young men from the new holds will flock to his army, and probably a lot of previously neutral men as well. Even if you supported the Imperials as a Nord, it's likely you're a soldier so joining Ulfric wouldn't be out of the question either.

Hammerfell still trades with Cyrodiil? Proof?

Alright, you've got me beat here, those are 8 solid points.

So your going to conquer a province you'd have to dig out first, with the War looming and even if you were successful you'd have rebellion smouldering for years to come? Obviously, but those are extremely small minority groups.

People untouched by it.

Pretty much all of your Redguard portion is gone. I'd say a majority of your Nord portion would also be gone.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And they would've been able to prepare for that had they been planning for the Imperial City from the beginning. That scenario could have also led to the Forebears and Crowns not reconciling depending on how much they ignored Hammerfell.

The Forebears and Crowns united when the Dominion had taken Southern Hammerfell. You said if they just fortified Southern Hammerfell and left to Cyrodiil, it would still unite the two political factions.

Prepare for it? They simply did not expect Titus to abandon the city, not even the Legion expected it.

What makes Battlemages so essential?

Provides support for your infantry, and the protective wards they cast are used to protect your forces from enemy mages. They have been essential in many wars, the Aldmeri army is largely magic users.

I wouldn't say Raerek's a hardcore Talos worshipper, he just held on to an amulet as far as we know. Pretty much every Nord worshipped Talos before the Concordat, but not everyone does now because of it.

Not everyone is as open about it now. Still are plenty who worship Talos without yelling it to the world. Kodlak, Balgruuf, Alvor, Rikke, Hadvar, Elisif (Maybe).

Half the country was calling for war, and it was something as touchy as religon on the line. As far as rebel leaders go it probably wouldn't get too much better than Ulfric.

No. Only citizens in Windhelm were calling for war/justice, due to the anger and grief from Ulfric's father passing. Only Ulfric spoke of independence at the Moot, and the Stormcloaks had been fighting for years. If half the country wanted war, why wasn't Ulfric able to take more cities, prior to the Legion getting involved?

So hypothetically if a Jarl who regularly promoted violence against the Empire, attacked Imperial travellers, spoke out against them etc. etc. and the moot elected them the Empire wouldn't step in and say "sorry, nope"? Morrowind was the only province who's policies seemed untouchable by the Imperials.

If a Jarl was doing that, I doubt he would have been Jarl at the time of the Moot. The Legion would have stepped in if a local ruler was attacking citizens. Though a High King doesn't need to care about Imperial interests, one of them didn't when they annexed several fiefdoms that belonged directly to the Emperor. The Empire doesn't simply remove rulers or reject claims anytime someone acts against Imperial interests, hence why you have treaties, marriages, bribes etc.

The other Jarls don't have a claim at all really, I guess the moot could elect them if they wanted to but really it's Elisif (through marriage) and Ulfric (through conquest). I'm not denying Ulfric uses her as a puppet, if she had any real power as High Queen/Jarl things would fall apart, as bad as I feel for her.

Of course they do. Elisif being High Queen isn't the end of the world, you Stormcloaks act like she will ruin the country given the first chance. She does have fairly alright advisors. Also if Skyrim could handle the rule of Pelagius the Mad, they can handle Elisif the Fair.


They're rich but I don't think a lot of them have great connections with Jarls. Even so, most of the clans are pro-Stormcloak anyways.

Most of the clans are pro-themselves. Stormcloaks are a means to an end, but they look out for themselves first.

Not Elsweyr, Morrowind, and Hammerfell.

Hammerfell would be Dominion controlled if not for the Empire's actions during the war. Morrowind is still fairly crippled, and they've never relied on the Empire. They mostly want to keep to themselves. We don't know if Elsweyr is doing well or not.

A High Rock cut off from the Empire would leave them scared out of their minds. If an alliance was available they'd snatch it up in a second.

High Rock doesn't care. I doubt they would be scared out of their minds. They don't have much to fear, besides the boring complex system of Breton politics. Though they enjoy their politics.

Is White-Gold anymore meaningful than Adamantine or Snow Throat?

It is the most important one there is. As it holds the power to undo any damage the Thalmor might do (if it is indeed their goal to destroy the towers).

Just pointing out the Camoran's and Ysgramor had success for even longer than the Septims. The Camoran's was just an example of a successful line of kings outside of Cyrodiil with no Empire.

Camoran Dynasty did well until the Second Empire, but Bosmer aren't like Nords or Imperials. Ysgramor's Dynasty didn't have success longer than the Septims. It lasted 235 years when the 13th descendent of the Ysgramor line established Skyrim as an independent nation and became the High King of the Nords.

Skyrim wouldn't go to Summerset anytime soon, it was a spur of the moment thing said by Ulfric. If the next war breaks out soon it won't be on Skyrim's doorstep, so they could still be preparing. The next war will require the overthrow of either the Thalmor or Empire so it could drag on for decades. How long do you think it would take Ulfric? 5 years, tops? The entire nation would be focused on that alone for the most part. And a High Rock/Hammerfell/Skyrim navy would be less effective the the Imperial one?

Can't be certain how long it will take to rebuild Skyrim. Could be all of Ulfric's life, you don't rebuild a nation in five years. Not a medieval one at least. I wouldn't say they would be less effective, but the Imperial Navy is quite well reknowned.


Recruitment will increase, young men from the new holds will flock to his army, and probably a lot of previously neutral men as well. Even if you supported the Imperials as a Nord, it's likely you're a soldier so joining Ulfric wouldn't be out of the question either.

Can't just rely on other provinces, so you need a force that can invade the Aldmeri Dominion. Have reinfoircements, and others to keep routes open. Take awhile to scrap together a massive invasion force.

Hammerfell still trades with Cyrodiil? Proof?

EETC map and Maven I think has a conversation about attacking a Hammerfell trade caravan. Absolutely no reason for them not to trade with Cyrodiil, Colovian goods are in high demand there.


So your going to conquer a province you'd have to dig out first, with the War looming and even if you were successful you'd have rebellion smouldering for years to come? Obviously, but those are extremely small minority groups.

Wouldn't take too much to clear Pale Pass, given it's history of getting blocked a lot. Clearing it would be routine. Don't need to conquer the entire province, taking Falkreath and returning it back to Cyrodiil isn't impossible. Like I said, it is guarded by Militia. Conquering while other wars are looming isn't anything new, Empire took Hammerfell and High Rock while they were facing threats and skirmishes with the Aldmeri Dominion (Even fighting in Elsweyr).


Pretty much all of your Redguard portion is gone. I'd say a majority of your Nord portion would also be gone.

Majority of Redguards disliked Military service, so they weren't much of a portion. Though there is a fair few Redguards in the Legion in Skyrim. The "Nord portion" is already in Cyrodiil, and there are large numbers of Nords living within Cyrodiil. Large numbers of all races, since it is a melting pot.

Empire can still field a force even if it was just Cyrodiil remaining, it is how the Empire started. Though if we want an idea someone who plays TESO will have to inform us on the Legions and the Colovian Armies, if they're even a factor in the Alliance Wars.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Not everyone is as open about it now. Still are plenty who worship Talos without yelling it to the world. Kodlak, Balgruuf, Alvor, Rikke, Hadvar, Elisif (Maybe).

And Toryyg as well. You know, before ironically being killed by someone claiming to be fighting for Talos freedom.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Pretty much all of your Redguard portion is gone. I'd say a majority of your Nord portion would also be gone.

Majority of Redguards disliked Military service, so they weren't much of a portion. Though there is a fair few Redguards in the Legion in Skyrim. The "Nord portion" is already in Cyrodiil, and there are large numbers of Nords living within Cyrodiil. Large numbers of all races, since it is a melting pot.

Empire can still field a force even if it was just Cyrodiil remaining, it is how the Empire started. Though if we want an idea someone who plays TESO will have to inform us on the Legions and the Colovian Armies, if they're even a factor in the Alliance Wars.


Both Cyrodil and Colovians are a pain in the a$$. Colovia in TESO is like a miniature Cyrodil that hates you just as much (if not more) than the regular Cyrodil.

That said, you can of course, play as an Imperial Rebel and join any faction.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Both Cyrodil and Colovians are a pain in the a$$. Colovia in TESO is like a miniature Cyrodil that hates you just as much (if not more) than the regular Cyrodil.

Colovians hate everyone, so that doesn't surprise me.

But, are the remaining Legions/Colovian armies a factor in the Alliance Wars? Are they considered a threat, do they get mentioned by the alliances etc?
 

Ivory

Let's Player
But, are the remaining Legions/Colovian armies a factor in the Alliance Wars? Are they considered a threat, do they get mentioned by the alliances etc?

They only time they're mentioned to what I've played is by Abnur Tharn. He briefly mentions how barbaric they are or something.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Both Cyrodil and Colovians are a pain in the a$$. Colovia in TESO is like a miniature Cyrodil that hates you just as much (if not more) than the regular Cyrodil.

Colovians hate everyone, so that doesn't surprise me.

But, are the remaining Legions/Colovian armies a factor in the Alliance Wars? Are they considered a threat, do they get mentioned by the alliances etc?


Well... ah... no one really cares at this point. There's some discussion about the Empire and who screwed up, whose in charge of what... however in this game, Cyrodil and Colovia are like that game "Hungry, Hungry, Hippos" where all (3) sides are trying to gobble up as much land and resources as possible.

Basically, it's all about that fool Mannimarco and what he's doing. Since the "death" of the last Emperor, they've torn down all the borders and Cyrodil is basically like a free for all now. No one has any fear of the Legion or consideration other than how much each side can get. The Colovians themselves make trouble across several quests.

It's like the Fall of Rome, sometimes you'll hear a discussion about past glory but everyone wants a piece of that glory and everyone is trying to be "the Empire". Cyrodil's Legions and political autonomy are thrown under a bus. :/
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
However, I still care. :p


Hello?!?? Is this thing on? "Freedom or Sovngarde" anyone?

Hah more like "Freedom or Coldharbour" said no one ever...

Speaking of which, in ESO I'm playing as a Drunken Mage and for some reason I keep running into all these damn Lore books. I joined this game to blow pl*ps up, not become a freakin' librarian dammit. :cool:
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Gosh, I missed having internet access to some extent. I thought about bashing Stormcloak Jarls as my first return-post, but it's almost midnight over here so I'll leave that for tomorrow.

Not everyone is as open about it now. Still are plenty who worship Talos without yelling it to the world. Kodlak, Balgruuf, Alvor, Rikke, Hadvar, Elisif (Maybe).

Don't forget Raerek. You know, the steward in Markarth who walks past the Commander of the Thalmor every day.

e50cad5bab605f7e1924227ac4503d63c3030c61938765e81130198b21359c5e.jpg


edit; just noticed Raerek was mentioned in the quote. That brings up the question why a Stormcloak supporter doubts someone's obvious worship of Talos just because the person is smart enough to do it... I don't know, before going to bed or something?
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
And they would've been able to prepare for that had they been planning for the Imperial City from the beginning. That scenario could have also led to the Forebears and Crowns not reconciling depending on how much they ignored Hammerfell.

The Forebears and Crowns united when the Dominion had taken Southern Hammerfell. You said if they just fortified Southern Hammerfell and left to Cyrodiil, it would still unite the two political factions.

Prepare for it? They simply did not expect Titus to abandon the city, not even the Legion expected it.

What makes Battlemages so essential?

Provides support for your infantry, and the protective wards they cast are used to protect your forces from enemy mages. They have been essential in many wars, the Aldmeri army is largely magic users.

I wouldn't say Raerek's a hardcore Talos worshipper, he just held on to an amulet as far as we know. Pretty much every Nord worshipped Talos before the Concordat, but not everyone does now because of it.

Not everyone is as open about it now. Still are plenty who worship Talos without yelling it to the world. Kodlak, Balgruuf, Alvor, Rikke, Hadvar, Elisif (Maybe).

Half the country was calling for war, and it was something as touchy as religon on the line. As far as rebel leaders go it probably wouldn't get too much better than Ulfric.

No. Only citizens in Windhelm were calling for war/justice, due to the anger and grief from Ulfric's father passing. Only Ulfric spoke of independence at the Moot, and the Stormcloaks had been fighting for years. If half the country wanted war, why wasn't Ulfric able to take more cities, prior to the Legion getting involved?

So hypothetically if a Jarl who regularly promoted violence against the Empire, attacked Imperial travellers, spoke out against them etc. etc. and the moot elected them the Empire wouldn't step in and say "sorry, nope"? Morrowind was the only province who's policies seemed untouchable by the Imperials.

If a Jarl was doing that, I doubt he would have been Jarl at the time of the Moot. The Legion would have stepped in if a local ruler was attacking citizens. Though a High King doesn't need to care about Imperial interests, one of them didn't when they annexed several fiefdoms that belonged directly to the Emperor. The Empire doesn't simply remove rulers or reject claims anytime someone acts against Imperial interests, hence why you have treaties, marriages, bribes etc.

The other Jarls don't have a claim at all really, I guess the moot could elect them if they wanted to but really it's Elisif (through marriage) and Ulfric (through conquest). I'm not denying Ulfric uses her as a puppet, if she had any real power as High Queen/Jarl things would fall apart, as bad as I feel for her.

Of course they do. Elisif being High Queen isn't the end of the world, you Stormcloaks act like she will ruin the country given the first chance. She does have fairly alright advisors. Also if Skyrim could handle the rule of Pelagius the Mad, they can handle Elisif the Fair.


They're rich but I don't think a lot of them have great connections with Jarls. Even so, most of the clans are pro-Stormcloak anyways.

Most of the clans are pro-themselves. Stormcloaks are a means to an end, but they look out for themselves first.

Not Elsweyr, Morrowind, and Hammerfell.

Hammerfell would be Dominion controlled if not for the Empire's actions during the war. Morrowind is still fairly crippled, and they've never relied on the Empire. They mostly want to keep to themselves. We don't know if Elsweyr is doing well or not.

A High Rock cut off from the Empire would leave them scared out of their minds. If an alliance was available they'd snatch it up in a second.

High Rock doesn't care. I doubt they would be scared out of their minds. They don't have much to fear, besides the boring complex system of Breton politics. Though they enjoy their politics.

Is White-Gold anymore meaningful than Adamantine or Snow Throat?

It is the most important one there is. As it holds the power to undo any damage the Thalmor might do (if it is indeed their goal to destroy the towers).

Just pointing out the Camoran's and Ysgramor had success for even longer than the Septims. The Camoran's was just an example of a successful line of kings outside of Cyrodiil with no Empire.

Camoran Dynasty did well until the Second Empire, but Bosmer aren't like Nords or Imperials. Ysgramor's Dynasty didn't have success longer than the Septims. It lasted 235 years when the 13th descendent of the Ysgramor line established Skyrim as an independent nation and became the High King of the Nords.

Skyrim wouldn't go to Summerset anytime soon, it was a spur of the moment thing said by Ulfric. If the next war breaks out soon it won't be on Skyrim's doorstep, so they could still be preparing. The next war will require the overthrow of either the Thalmor or Empire so it could drag on for decades. How long do you think it would take Ulfric? 5 years, tops? The entire nation would be focused on that alone for the most part. And a High Rock/Hammerfell/Skyrim navy would be less effective the the Imperial one?

Can't be certain how long it will take to rebuild Skyrim. Could be all of Ulfric's life, you don't rebuild a nation in five years. Not a medieval one at least. I wouldn't say they would be less effective, but the Imperial Navy is quite well reknowned.


Recruitment will increase, young men from the new holds will flock to his army, and probably a lot of previously neutral men as well. Even if you supported the Imperials as a Nord, it's likely you're a soldier so joining Ulfric wouldn't be out of the question either.

Can't just rely on other provinces, so you need a force that can invade the Aldmeri Dominion. Have reinfoircements, and others to keep routes open. Take awhile to scrap together a massive invasion force.

Hammerfell still trades with Cyrodiil? Proof?

EETC map and Maven I think has a conversation about attacking a Hammerfell trade caravan. Absolutely no reason for them not to trade with Cyrodiil, Colovian goods are in high demand there.


So your going to conquer a province you'd have to dig out first, with the War looming and even if you were successful you'd have rebellion smouldering for years to come? Obviously, but those are extremely small minority groups.

Wouldn't take too much to clear Pale Pass, given it's history of getting blocked a lot. Clearing it would be routine. Don't need to conquer the entire province, taking Falkreath and returning it back to Cyrodiil isn't impossible. Like I said, it is guarded by Militia. Conquering while other wars are looming isn't anything new, Empire took Hammerfell and High Rock while they were facing threats and skirmishes with the Aldmeri Dominion (Even fighting in Elsweyr).


Pretty much all of your Redguard portion is gone. I'd say a majority of your Nord portion would also be gone.

Majority of Redguards disliked Military service, so they weren't much of a portion. Though there is a fair few Redguards in the Legion in Skyrim. The "Nord portion" is already in Cyrodiil, and there are large numbers of Nords living within Cyrodiil. Large numbers of all races, since it is a melting pot.

Empire can still field a force even if it was just Cyrodiil remaining, it is how the Empire started. Though if we want an idea someone who plays TESO will have to inform us on the Legions and the Colovian Armies, if they're even a factor in the Alliance Wars.

The Forebears and Crowns may not have reconciled of the Thalmor hadn't gone out of their way to secure the entire coastline. You can't say Titus's escape would work everytime, the Dominion committing to the Capital earlier may have left the Legions to decimated for Titus to even attempt to reclaim the city. Hell, maybe even one Aldmeri archer who otherwise would've died could've got a lucky shot in on him while he was running away.

The Stormcloaks have healers (Lilja Snow-Shod), which is part of the Restoration school which wards fall under.

And that ties into what I said earlier. There are probably many Nords out there who believe worshipping Talos in private to be an embarrassment.

Um, if I'm not mistaken the Legion got involved when Torygg died, and Skyrim starts presumably later that year. Ulfric at that time was in control of 4/9 holds, one of which is neutral and one of which was originally Stormcloak until the Jarl was disposed of at the last second. So the Old Holds (while maybe not fighting at the moment) still wanted change.

So you say the Legion would dispose of said hypothetical Jarl, but the Empire doesn't interfere with choosing/removing local governments. Hmmm.

I don't think it was like they were unaffected by Pelagius's reign. And no, not when Skyrim needs to be rebuilt and healed, they sure don't need Elisif.

It was a majority of Redguards (you go on to say a lot of them dislike serving in the Legion) who defended Hammerfell, and it wasn't so much the Empire as it was the Crowns and Forebears pulling together. Morrowind being crippled is no fault of their own (OC, Red Mountain, and finally Argonian invasion).

Yes, High Rock would not want to be independant at these particular times. They probably are aware they'd crash and burn on their own, and High Rock would be a very strategic and probably not all that difficult to conquer target for the Dominion. If a cut-off Imperial High Rock were attacked at the same time as Cyrodiil, there would be no way the Empire would be able to defend the Bretons.

As I understand it, you have to undo all the towers, or else we'd all ready be screwed with Green-Sap, Red, and Walk-Brass all gone. Is it proven White-Gold is the most powerful? I guess it is central and all, but wasn't it built by Aylieds while Adamantine was built by the Aedra, for example?

That all stemmed from Ysgramor, so while technically it was shorter by definition it really lasted much longer. I'm not saying what works for Bosmer will work for anyone else but they're still an example of success outside of Cyrodiil.

It can't take that long, considering it will be the focus point of Ulfric's reign. Also, Cyrodiil is even more screwed up so why would they do any better?

The EETC is operating in Windhelm and Morrowind. They have Imperial ties but can still operate outside of the Empire. A trade caravan doesn't repressent an entire province. You wouldn't call Skyrim and Elsweyr trading partners.

If clearing Pale Pass is so easy, why haven't the Imperials received reinforcements and won the war?Even if they did, Skyrim would answer. Even if the Nords lost, it would needlessly weaken the Empire when they need to focus on the Dominion. That makes absolutely no sense.

No, the Nord portion is in Skyrim, a lot aren't Legion anymore. Maybe there are a few stationed in Cyrodiil but not anything noteworthy. Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone just on its own. Almost all of Skyrim was on board immediately, and you had one of the most powerful and smartest individuals to ever walk Tamriel at the helm.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
And they would've been able to prepare for that had they been planning for the Imperial City from the beginning. That scenario could have also led to the Forebears and Crowns not reconciling depending on how much they ignored Hammerfell.

The Forebears and Crowns united when the Dominion had taken Southern Hammerfell. You said if they just fortified Southern Hammerfell and left to Cyrodiil, it would still unite the two political factions.

Prepare for it? They simply did not expect Titus to abandon the city, not even the Legion expected it.

What makes Battlemages so essential?

Provides support for your infantry, and the protective wards they cast are used to protect your forces from enemy mages. They have been essential in many wars, the Aldmeri army is largely magic users.

I wouldn't say Raerek's a hardcore Talos worshipper, he just held on to an amulet as far as we know. Pretty much every Nord worshipped Talos before the Concordat, but not everyone does now because of it.

Not everyone is as open about it now. Still are plenty who worship Talos without yelling it to the world. Kodlak, Balgruuf, Alvor, Rikke, Hadvar, Elisif (Maybe).

Half the country was calling for war, and it was something as touchy as religon on the line. As far as rebel leaders go it probably wouldn't get too much better than Ulfric.

No. Only citizens in Windhelm were calling for war/justice, due to the anger and grief from Ulfric's father passing. Only Ulfric spoke of independence at the Moot, and the Stormcloaks had been fighting for years. If half the country wanted war, why wasn't Ulfric able to take more cities, prior to the Legion getting involved?

So hypothetically if a Jarl who regularly promoted violence against the Empire, attacked Imperial travellers, spoke out against them etc. etc. and the moot elected them the Empire wouldn't step in and say "sorry, nope"? Morrowind was the only province who's policies seemed untouchable by the Imperials.

If a Jarl was doing that, I doubt he would have been Jarl at the time of the Moot. The Legion would have stepped in if a local ruler was attacking citizens. Though a High King doesn't need to care about Imperial interests, one of them didn't when they annexed several fiefdoms that belonged directly to the Emperor. The Empire doesn't simply remove rulers or reject claims anytime someone acts against Imperial interests, hence why you have treaties, marriages, bribes etc.

The other Jarls don't have a claim at all really, I guess the moot could elect them if they wanted to but really it's Elisif (through marriage) and Ulfric (through conquest). I'm not denying Ulfric uses her as a puppet, if she had any real power as High Queen/Jarl things would fall apart, as bad as I feel for her.

Of course they do. Elisif being High Queen isn't the end of the world, you Stormcloaks act like she will ruin the country given the first chance. She does have fairly alright advisors. Also if Skyrim could handle the rule of Pelagius the Mad, they can handle Elisif the Fair.


They're rich but I don't think a lot of them have great connections with Jarls. Even so, most of the clans are pro-Stormcloak anyways.

Most of the clans are pro-themselves. Stormcloaks are a means to an end, but they look out for themselves first.

Not Elsweyr, Morrowind, and Hammerfell.

Hammerfell would be Dominion controlled if not for the Empire's actions during the war. Morrowind is still fairly crippled, and they've never relied on the Empire. They mostly want to keep to themselves. We don't know if Elsweyr is doing well or not.

A High Rock cut off from the Empire would leave them scared out of their minds. If an alliance was available they'd snatch it up in a second.

High Rock doesn't care. I doubt they would be scared out of their minds. They don't have much to fear, besides the boring complex system of Breton politics. Though they enjoy their politics.

Is White-Gold anymore meaningful than Adamantine or Snow Throat?

It is the most important one there is. As it holds the power to undo any damage the Thalmor might do (if it is indeed their goal to destroy the towers).

Just pointing out the Camoran's and Ysgramor had success for even longer than the Septims. The Camoran's was just an example of a successful line of kings outside of Cyrodiil with no Empire.

Camoran Dynasty did well until the Second Empire, but Bosmer aren't like Nords or Imperials. Ysgramor's Dynasty didn't have success longer than the Septims. It lasted 235 years when the 13th descendent of the Ysgramor line established Skyrim as an independent nation and became the High King of the Nords.

Skyrim wouldn't go to Summerset anytime soon, it was a spur of the moment thing said by Ulfric. If the next war breaks out soon it won't be on Skyrim's doorstep, so they could still be preparing. The next war will require the overthrow of either the Thalmor or Empire so it could drag on for decades. How long do you think it would take Ulfric? 5 years, tops? The entire nation would be focused on that alone for the most part. And a High Rock/Hammerfell/Skyrim navy would be less effective the the Imperial one?

Can't be certain how long it will take to rebuild Skyrim. Could be all of Ulfric's life, you don't rebuild a nation in five years. Not a medieval one at least. I wouldn't say they would be less effective, but the Imperial Navy is quite well reknowned.


Recruitment will increase, young men from the new holds will flock to his army, and probably a lot of previously neutral men as well. Even if you supported the Imperials as a Nord, it's likely you're a soldier so joining Ulfric wouldn't be out of the question either.

Can't just rely on other provinces, so you need a force that can invade the Aldmeri Dominion. Have reinfoircements, and others to keep routes open. Take awhile to scrap together a massive invasion force.

Hammerfell still trades with Cyrodiil? Proof?

EETC map and Maven I think has a conversation about attacking a Hammerfell trade caravan. Absolutely no reason for them not to trade with Cyrodiil, Colovian goods are in high demand there.


So your going to conquer a province you'd have to dig out first, with the War looming and even if you were successful you'd have rebellion smouldering for years to come? Obviously, but those are extremely small minority groups.

Wouldn't take too much to clear Pale Pass, given it's history of getting blocked a lot. Clearing it would be routine. Don't need to conquer the entire province, taking Falkreath and returning it back to Cyrodiil isn't impossible. Like I said, it is guarded by Militia. Conquering while other wars are looming isn't anything new, Empire took Hammerfell and High Rock while they were facing threats and skirmishes with the Aldmeri Dominion (Even fighting in Elsweyr).


Pretty much all of your Redguard portion is gone. I'd say a majority of your Nord portion would also be gone.

Majority of Redguards disliked Military service, so they weren't much of a portion. Though there is a fair few Redguards in the Legion in Skyrim. The "Nord portion" is already in Cyrodiil, and there are large numbers of Nords living within Cyrodiil. Large numbers of all races, since it is a melting pot.

Empire can still field a force even if it was just Cyrodiil remaining, it is how the Empire started. Though if we want an idea someone who plays TESO will have to inform us on the Legions and the Colovian Armies, if they're even a factor in the Alliance Wars.

The Forebears and Crowns may not have reconciled of the Thalmor hadn't gone out of their way to secure the entire coastline. You can't say Titus's escape would work everytime, the Dominion committing to the Capital earlier may have left the Legions to decimated for Titus to even attempt to reclaim the city. Hell, maybe even one Aldmeri archer who otherwise would've died could've got a lucky shot in on him while he was running away.

The Stormcloaks have healers (Lilja Snow-Shod), which is part of the Restoration school which wards fall under.

And that ties into what I said earlier. There are probably many Nords out there who believe worshipping Talos in private to be an embarrassment.

Um, if I'm not mistaken the Legion got involved when Torygg died, and Skyrim starts presumably later that year. Ulfric at that time was in control of 4/9 holds, one of which is neutral and one of which was originally Stormcloak until the Jarl was disposed of at the last second. So the Old Holds (while maybe not fighting at the moment) still wanted change.

So you say the Legion would dispose of said hypothetical Jarl, but the Empire doesn't interfere with choosing/removing local governments. Hmmm.

I don't think it was like they were unaffected by Pelagius's reign. And no, not when Skyrim needs to be rebuilt and healed, they sure don't need Elisif.

It was a majority of Redguards (you go on to say a lot of them dislike serving in the Legion) who defended Hammerfell, and it wasn't so much the Empire as it was the Crowns and Forebears pulling together. Morrowind being crippled is no fault of their own (OC, Red Mountain, and finally Argonian invasion).

Yes, High Rock would not want to be independant at these particular times. They probably are aware they'd crash and burn on their own, and High Rock would be a very strategic and probably not all that difficult to conquer target for the Dominion. If a cut-off Imperial High Rock were attacked at the same time as Cyrodiil, there would be no way the Empire would be able to defend the Bretons.

As I understand it, you have to undo all the towers, or else we'd all ready be screwed with Green-Sap, Red, and Walk-Brass all gone. Is it proven White-Gold is the most powerful? I guess it is central and all, but wasn't it built by Aylieds while Adamantine was built by the Aedra, for example?

That all stemmed from Ysgramor, so while technically it was shorter by definition it really lasted much longer. I'm not saying what works for Bosmer will work for anyone else but they're still an example of success outside of Cyrodiil.

It can't take that long, considering it will be the focus point of Ulfric's reign. Also, Cyrodiil is even more screwed up so why would they do any better?

The EETC is operating in Windhelm and Morrowind. They have Imperial ties but can still operate outside of the Empire. A trade caravan doesn't repressent an entire province. You wouldn't call Skyrim and Elsweyr trading partners.

If clearing Pale Pass is so easy, why haven't the Imperials received reinforcements and won the war?Even if they did, Skyrim would answer. Even if the Nords lost, it would needlessly weaken the Empire when they need to focus on the Dominion. That makes absolutely no sense.

No, the Nord portion is in Skyrim, a lot aren't Legion anymore. Maybe there are a few stationed in Cyrodiil but not anything noteworthy. Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone just on its own. Almost all of Skyrim was on board immediately, and you had one of the most powerful and smartest individuals to ever walk Tamriel at the helm.


Well, I can see where your going with this, most of it looks alright. However... this last part is conjecture:

No, the Nord portion is in Skyrim, a lot aren't Legion anymore. Maybe there are a few stationed in Cyrodiil but not anything noteworthy. Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone just on its own. Almost all of Skyrim was on board immediately, and you had one of the most powerful and smartest individuals to ever walk Tamriel at the helm.

How much is 'alot'? There are enough Legion vets left, both Nords and non-Nords to make the Stormcloak Jarls feel threatened. Also, an Imperial is not always someone who wears the uniform of the Legion, there are Imperials of all different shapes and colors who have varying opinions that run contrary to Ulfric's mission and vision for Skyrim. Furthermore, as many Nords opposed Septim as followed him. Septim 'won' Skyrim. Alessia and Pelinal Whitestrake now, had an actual Alliance with Skyrim. Tiber Septim wasn't smart as he was ruthless, yet, his Empire, his child, actually grew into something that was good, though not always. Good for providing a common denominator for man at least. Not so good for the Aldmeri powers and they were rightly pissed off at the outcome.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
The Forebears and Crowns united when the Dominion had taken Southern Hammerfell. You said if they just fortified Southern Hammerfell and left to Cyrodiil, it would still unite the two political factions.

Prepare for it? They simply did not expect Titus to abandon the city, not even the Legion expected it.

Provides support for your infantry, and the protective wards they cast are used to protect your forces from enemy mages. They have been essential in many wars, the Aldmeri army is largely magic users.

Not everyone is as open about it now. Still are plenty who worship Talos without yelling it to the world. Kodlak, Balgruuf, Alvor, Rikke, Hadvar, Elisif (Maybe).

No. Only citizens in Windhelm were calling for war/justice, due to the anger and grief from Ulfric's father passing. Only Ulfric spoke of independence at the Moot, and the Stormcloaks had been fighting for years. If half the country wanted war, why wasn't Ulfric able to take more cities, prior to the Legion getting involved?

If a Jarl was doing that, I doubt he would have been Jarl at the time of the Moot. The Legion would have stepped in if a local ruler was attacking citizens. Though a High King doesn't need to care about Imperial interests, one of them didn't when they annexed several fiefdoms that belonged directly to the Emperor. The Empire doesn't simply remove rulers or reject claims anytime someone acts against Imperial interests, hence why you have treaties, marriages, bribes etc.

Of course they do. Elisif being High Queen isn't the end of the world, you Stormcloaks act like she will ruin the country given the first chance. She does have fairly alright advisors. Also if Skyrim could handle the rule of Pelagius the Mad, they can handle Elisif the Fair.


Most of the clans are pro-themselves. Stormcloaks are a means to an end, but they look out for themselves first.

Hammerfell would be Dominion controlled if not for the Empire's actions during the war. Morrowind is still fairly crippled, and they've never relied on the Empire. They mostly want to keep to themselves. We don't know if Elsweyr is doing well or not.

High Rock doesn't care. I doubt they would be scared out of their minds. They don't have much to fear, besides the boring complex system of Breton politics. Though they enjoy their politics.

It is the most important one there is. As it holds the power to undo any damage the Thalmor might do (if it is indeed their goal to destroy the towers).

Camoran Dynasty did well until the Second Empire, but Bosmer aren't like Nords or Imperials. Ysgramor's Dynasty didn't have success longer than the Septims. It lasted 235 years when the 13th descendent of the Ysgramor line established Skyrim as an independent nation and became the High King of the Nords.

Can't be certain how long it will take to rebuild Skyrim. Could be all of Ulfric's life, you don't rebuild a nation in five years. Not a medieval one at least. I wouldn't say they would be less effective, but the Imperial Navy is quite well reknowned.


Can't just rely on other provinces, so you need a force that can invade the Aldmeri Dominion. Have reinfoircements, and others to keep routes open. Take awhile to scrap together a massive invasion force.

EETC map and Maven I think has a conversation about attacking a Hammerfell trade caravan. Absolutely no reason for them not to trade with Cyrodiil, Colovian goods are in high demand there.


Wouldn't take too much to clear Pale Pass, given it's history of getting blocked a lot. Clearing it would be routine. Don't need to conquer the entire province, taking Falkreath and returning it back to Cyrodiil isn't impossible. Like I said, it is guarded by Militia. Conquering while other wars are looming isn't anything new, Empire took Hammerfell and High Rock while they were facing threats and skirmishes with the Aldmeri Dominion (Even fighting in Elsweyr).


Majority of Redguards disliked Military service, so they weren't much of a portion. Though there is a fair few Redguards in the Legion in Skyrim. The "Nord portion" is already in Cyrodiil, and there are large numbers of Nords living within Cyrodiil. Large numbers of all races, since it is a melting pot.

Empire can still field a force even if it was just Cyrodiil remaining, it is how the Empire started. Though if we want an idea someone who plays TESO will have to inform us on the Legions and the Colovian Armies, if they're even a factor in the Alliance Wars.

The Forebears and Crowns may not have reconciled of the Thalmor hadn't gone out of their way to secure the entire coastline. You can't say Titus's escape would work everytime, the Dominion committing to the Capital earlier may have left the Legions to decimated for Titus to even attempt to reclaim the city. Hell, maybe even one Aldmeri archer who otherwise would've died could've got a lucky shot in on him while he was running away.

The Stormcloaks have healers (Lilja Snow-Shod), which is part of the Restoration school which wards fall under.

And that ties into what I said earlier. There are probably many Nords out there who believe worshipping Talos in private to be an embarrassment.

Um, if I'm not mistaken the Legion got involved when Torygg died, and Skyrim starts presumably later that year. Ulfric at that time was in control of 4/9 holds, one of which is neutral and one of which was originally Stormcloak until the Jarl was disposed of at the last second. So the Old Holds (while maybe not fighting at the moment) still wanted change.

So you say the Legion would dispose of said hypothetical Jarl, but the Empire doesn't interfere with choosing/removing local governments. Hmmm.

I don't think it was like they were unaffected by Pelagius's reign. And no, not when Skyrim needs to be rebuilt and healed, they sure don't need Elisif.

It was a majority of Redguards (you go on to say a lot of them dislike serving in the Legion) who defended Hammerfell, and it wasn't so much the Empire as it was the Crowns and Forebears pulling together. Morrowind being crippled is no fault of their own (OC, Red Mountain, and finally Argonian invasion).

Yes, High Rock would not want to be independant at these particular times. They probably are aware they'd crash and burn on their own, and High Rock would be a very strategic and probably not all that difficult to conquer target for the Dominion. If a cut-off Imperial High Rock were attacked at the same time as Cyrodiil, there would be no way the Empire would be able to defend the Bretons.

As I understand it, you have to undo all the towers, or else we'd all ready be screwed with Green-Sap, Red, and Walk-Brass all gone. Is it proven White-Gold is the most powerful? I guess it is central and all, but wasn't it built by Aylieds while Adamantine was built by the Aedra, for example?

That all stemmed from Ysgramor, so while technically it was shorter by definition it really lasted much longer. I'm not saying what works for Bosmer will work for anyone else but they're still an example of success outside of Cyrodiil.

It can't take that long, considering it will be the focus point of Ulfric's reign. Also, Cyrodiil is even more screwed up so why would they do any better?

The EETC is operating in Windhelm and Morrowind. They have Imperial ties but can still operate outside of the Empire. A trade caravan doesn't repressent an entire province. You wouldn't call Skyrim and Elsweyr trading partners.

If clearing Pale Pass is so easy, why haven't the Imperials received reinforcements and won the war?Even if they did, Skyrim would answer. Even if the Nords lost, it would needlessly weaken the Empire when they need to focus on the Dominion. That makes absolutely no sense.

No, the Nord portion is in Skyrim, a lot aren't Legion anymore. Maybe there are a few stationed in Cyrodiil but not anything noteworthy. Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone just on its own. Almost all of Skyrim was on board immediately, and you had one of the most powerful and smartest individuals to ever walk Tamriel at the helm.


Well, I can see where your going with this, most of it looks alright. However... this last part is conjecture:

No, the Nord portion is in Skyrim, a lot aren't Legion anymore. Maybe there are a few stationed in Cyrodiil but not anything noteworthy. Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone just on its own. Almost all of Skyrim was on board immediately, and you had one of the most powerful and smartest individuals to ever walk Tamriel at the helm.

How much is 'alot'? There are enough Legion vets left, both Nords and non-Nords to make the Stormcloak Jarls feel threatened. Also, an Imperial is not always someone who wears the uniform of the Legion, there are Imperials of all different shapes and colors who have varying opinions that run contrary to Ulfric's mission and vision for Skyrim. Furthermore, as many Nords opposed Septim as followed him. Septim 'won' Skyrim. Alessia and Pelinal Whitestrake now, had an actual Alliance with Skyrim. Tiber Septim wasn't smart as he was ruthless, yet, his Empire, his child, actually grew into something that was good, though not always. Good for providing a common denominator for man at least. Not so good for the Aldmeri powers and they were rightly pissed off at the outcome.

It is speculation a little bit but here is my reasoning. A lot of Nord Great War vets are out of the Legion, and don't voice much support for it. Ulfric, Galmar, Skjor, Brunwulf, Rorik, as examples off the top of my head. Not to mention most vets would be too old for active service at this point anyway, and I doubt Nord recruitment for the legion was great after the concordat was signed. At least not as well as before.

A majority of Skyrim was on board with Septim from the get-go, his Legions were primarly Nords, the whole thing started in Falkreath. The notes on the first pocket guide by the Altmeri spy mentions how empty Nordic villages have become because all the men have left to fight for Septim. Septim was very intelligent (battle of Sancre Tor, siding with the Forebears to win Hammerfell, aquiring the Numidium, understanding chim). Whether or not he was "good" he was probably still one of if not the most important figure in Tamrielic History.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Forebears and Crowns may not have reconciled of the Thalmor hadn't gone out of their way to secure the entire coastline. You can't say Titus's escape would work everytime, the Dominion committing to the Capital earlier may have left the Legions to decimated for Titus to even attempt to reclaim the city. Hell, maybe even one Aldmeri archer who otherwise would've died could've got a lucky shot in on him while he was running away.

If they didn't secure the coastline, they leave Summerset Isle open to counter attack... Not wise, and would ruin their entire reason for expansion. No point in taking Cyrodiil while you leave your back door open and your leaders at risk.

Why can't we say his escape wouldn't work? They weren't expecting it and never planned for it. It may have left some Cyrodiil Legions decimated/retreating quicker, but allowing untouched Hammerfell/High Rock Legions + Crowns/Forebears to attack.


The Stormcloaks have healers (Lilja Snow-Shod), which is part of the Restoration school which wards fall under.

Then you have just wasted your healers. Hence why you have your Battlemages and Healers who do different jobs. If you waste your healers on wards, they're unable to heal the troops because they will be too tired.


Um, if I'm not mistaken the Legion got involved when Torygg died, and Skyrim starts presumably later that year. Ulfric at that time was in control of 4/9 holds, one of which is neutral and one of which was originally Stormcloak until the Jarl was disposed of at the last second. So the Old Holds (while maybe not fighting at the moment) still wanted change.

Ulfric didn't get most of his support until he killed Torygg, so it is unclear how many Holds he was in control of. All we know is that Dengeir had supported him from the get go, until he was removed bu his own nobles.


So you say the Legion would dispose of said hypothetical Jarl, but the Empire doesn't interfere with choosing/removing local governments. Hmmm.

Attacking citizens/having them killed =/= Political method of selecting rulers. If the Empire wanted to interfere, they would remove the Moot altogether. Instead they would go for a Republic as they did in Hammerfell for a time, since that is far easier to influence and interfere with than titles being passed down to son/daughter.

I don't think it was like they were unaffected by Pelagius's reign. And no, not when Skyrim needs to be rebuilt and healed, they sure don't need Elisif.

Why? In what way does Elisif stop Skyrim being rebuilt and healed? At the end of the questline, there is talk of rebuilding and repairing. In fact the Jarl of Winterhold intends to rebuild the entire city with the aid of the Empire, instead of sitting there bitching and blaming the Mages for the cold.

The High King/Queen don't need to directly oversee everything. The Holds are all largely independent. Winterhold seeks to rebuild under the Empire, Dawnstar is actively preparing defenses and plans to ensure the safety of citizens etc.

So I ask, how does Elisif and her Court stop the Jarls rebuilding and healing?

It was a majority of Redguards (you go on to say a lot of them dislike serving in the Legion) who defended Hammerfell, and it wasn't so much the Empire as it was the Crowns and Forebears pulling together. Morrowind being crippled is no fault of their own (OC, Red Mountain, and finally Argonian invasion).

The Legions left the Aldmeri greatly weakened and retreating fast in Hammerfell. Morrowind was politically unstable, having a civil War not long before the Oblivion Crisis tends to leave you weak. Their policies and traditions left intense hatred between them and the Argonians. Besides, the Dunmer caused Red Mountain.

Yes, High Rock would not want to be independant at these particular times. They probably are aware they'd crash and burn on their own, and High Rock would be a very strategic and probably not all that difficult to conquer target for the Dominion. If a cut-off Imperial High Rock were attacked at the same time as Cyrodiil, there would be no way the Empire would be able to defend the Bretons.

We don't know that. They won't crash and burn on their own, they're just politically unstable like always. But, they're stable like that... If you get what I mean? They're stable being unstable. High Rock isn't easy to conquer, piss them off enough they will assassinate your Military leadership. If the Dominion attacked High Rock and Cyrodiil at the same time it would leave them weak in a location. Attacking two provinces next to you is one thing, but with another inbetween? One that is also hostile to you? The Redguards won't sit the next war out.

As I understand it, you have to undo all the towers, or else we'd all ready be screwed with Green-Sap, Red, and Walk-Brass all gone. Is it proven White-Gold is the most powerful? I guess it is central and all, but wasn't it built by Aylieds while Adamantine was built by the Aedra, for example?

Highly hinted that it is very powerful, both in the novels and by Kirkbride, with the ability to undo the damage. Because of how it is designed. You have the tower, but you also have the city which is designed like the wheel of convention.

That all stemmed from Ysgramor, so while technically it was shorter by definition it really lasted much longer. I'm not saying what works for Bosmer will work for anyone else but they're still an example of success outside of Cyrodiil.

Except it didn't really count, since they weren't independent nor did they control the country until the 13th descendent who became the first King. Many places do well outside of Cyrodiil, the Empire isn't the be all end all.

It can't take that long, considering it will be the focus point of Ulfric's reign. Also, Cyrodiil is even more screwed up so why would they do any better?

A) They have an trained army
B) They've had twenty six years, six years head start over the Dominion preparing.
C) Empire is more than just Cyrodiil.

The EETC is operating in Windhelm and Morrowind. They have Imperial ties but can still operate outside of the Empire. A trade caravan doesn't repressent an entire province. You wouldn't call Skyrim and Elsweyr trading partners.

EETC makes money for the Empire. And you're leaving out that Colovian goods are highly sought in Hammerfell, so why would Hammerfell simply damage their economy by refusing to trade with the Empire? That would be stupid, and there is no reason the Redguards would do that.

If clearing Pale Pass is so easy, why haven't the Imperials received reinforcements and won the war?Even if they did, Skyrim would answer. Even if the Nords lost, it would needlessly weaken the Empire when they need to focus on the Dominion. That makes absolutely no sense.

Because it still takes time clearing the damn thing. Also takes time moving some Legionary forces from one end of Cyrodiil to the other. It is constantly 4E 201.

It makes sense, losing Skyrim through rebellion could cause problems politically, and they will try to reclaim it. Be stupid not to try. Then again the Stormcloak Rebellion could cause the Third Empire to collapse and the Dominion becomes the next rulers for a time/major player.

No, the Nord portion is in Skyrim, a lot aren't Legion anymore. Maybe there are a few stationed in Cyrodiil but not anything noteworthy. Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone just on its own. Almost all of Skyrim was on board immediately, and you had one of the most powerful and smartest individuals to ever walk Tamriel at the helm.

No, they're in Cyrodiil. Of course a lot aren't Legion anymore, many people retired or left after the war was done. Finished their Imperial contract. If Cyrodiil had lost their Northern Legions, that would be noteworthy, and they would be actively seeking to rebuild them. After the Imperial questline, Rikke and Tullius make zero mention of mass recruiting or building/training several Legions to prepare for the war. Why? Because majority of the Legion is in Cyrodiil.

Of course Cyrodiil didn't conquer everyone on it's own. But, it started on it's own. You're forgetting there was a Second Empire, Tiber wasn't at the helm for that one. Funny how Tiber actually mostly relied on his Colovian Legions and Colovian Nobility for important things.

Though, Skyrim is important and I don't see Tiber's Empire living without it. I also don't see the Stormcloaks doing too well for Skyrim. Chances are likely we're both screwed.

edit:

Found this dialogue.

Maven: "Hemming, have you dispatched that letter I gave you yesterday?"
Hemming: "Yes, and I sent it with our fastest courier and under the cover of night, exactly as you specified."
Maven: "Good. If I need to light a few fires in order to get what we need to defend this place from the Stormcloaks, so be it."
Hemming: "I'm almost certain he'll reach the Imperial City tomorrow, so we should have an answer by the end of the week."

I wonder what she is up to...
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
This thread would never truly die.

May the Stormcloaks teach those Imperial milk drinkers what true Nords are made of!


Here is what all Nords should do NOW to show Cyrodil what they're made of:

1) You and your friends sign on to ESO
2) Have everyone choose Nord Male Race, Packer Affil and choose the 'Hater' Class. Dragonknight would fit perfectly.
3) Then, gather everyone in Cyrodil (Up to 2000 haters) and meet me at Fort Fasendil on the Mtn of Doom.
4) We'll build a memorial in your honor and I'll show all of Cyrodil what 'true' Nords are made of.
5) When Imperial City *finally* comes out, heads can be displayed on the walls of the Imperial City so plp can meet a true Nord.

:)
 
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