Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
There is no argument against why the Empire would say no, other than "Just cause they are bad guys and evil tyrants". According to the Bear of Markarth the Reachmen were heading towards establishing an independent Kingdom, making moves to be recognised by the Empire. So if those "savages" can try it, I don't see why the Nord Jarls can't do a non-violent motion to the Imperial Council.

Very true the empire recognized us Orcs as citizens and our kingdom too, even tho everyone else was opposed to it. You have our support till the end!


Couldn't agree more. There will no be peace between Orcs and Nords if the Empire pulls out, esp if the Nords are going back to the 'old ways'.

Isn't it interesting how one group of people blames the Empire for all their ills while another has Freedom at all because of same Empire?

...till the end! :p
 
Last edited:

Ivory

Let's Player
Indeed. You know, on an completely unrelated note, after playing a good chunk of the Dominion questline in ESO, I'm starting to think putting the Thalmor in charge of Tamriel again might not be such a good idea. :p

Thalmor of the 2nd Era =/= Thalmor of the fourth Era. The Veiled Heritance are the Thalmor of the 4th Era
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Orcs (or followers of Trinimac)
False. They worship Malacath, not Trinimac. Altmer, Falmer and I think bretons were the ones who worshipped Trinimac.

I was talking about Orcs who forced Tamrielic Aboriginals off their land back in Dawn or Merethic Era. I'm not sure when exactly their transformation took place but before Orcs and Malacath they were an offshoot community of Aldmer who followed Trinimac.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Orcs (or followers of Trinimac)
False. They worship Malacath, not Trinimac. Altmer, Falmer and I think bretons were the ones who worshipped Trinimac.

I was talking about Orcs who forced Tamrielic Aboriginals off their land back in Dawn or Merethic Era. I'm not sure when exactly their transformation took place but before Orcs and Malacath they were an offshoot community of Aldmer who followed Trinimac.


Well, Orcs have done their share of dirt as well, which is not justifiable however it's understandable given their plight. However, Trinimac's *true* followers at the time were turned same as he was and forced out of wherever they lived to regroup in the wastes of North Skyrim. So certainly some High Elves may worship Trinimac, any follower of Malacath is an Orc but not all Orcs follow Malacath or Trinimac.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Oh really hahaha.

Well you do actually, have some good points here. I won't deny you that. And one thing - that you can't deny - is separation of church and state is foundation for rational Gov and that regardless of anyone's opinion, by not enforcing the WGC and the Emperor intending the WGC to only be implied and expressed in an official capacity makes the Imperial Gov Rational as well. Banning one God is no different, they could have banned them all and still result is the same because - as you said - the Dominion knew it was going to have to get it's hands dirty to enforce the WGC because the Imperial Gov was too rational.

Seeing how the Thalmor send their people from the Embassy's means this is a Diplomatic issue and as soon as the Empire gets the chance, the Thalmor can be removed from their borders thru Diplomacy. And well, let's face it, if you have another war planned there's no sense chasing Talos worshipers around when their very purposes for being there, - the Civil War - is mostly over and your point man dead.

Question though. You seem like a thoughtful person. Just one question.

How do you rationalize Ulfric as a Freedom Fighter after he's taken / taking / will take Freedom away from so many others? ie Reachmen, Whiterun, Argonians, Dark Elves, Imperial Nords etc... Ulric has had a strong hand in the oppression towards each of these groups, how do you figure he's fighting for everyone's Freedom? Make me a believer. Talos is listening. :)

Alright, that's a good question. Well, being honest, I don't fully support Ulfric, there are things I would change about him. For instance I do not agree at all with the way he handled Torygg. Especially when (I believe it was) Sybille Stentor said that Torygg already respected Ulfric enough to give the matter of independence some thought. A peaceful Stormcloak Revoultion had me practically drooling. Maybe the Empire wouldn't have accepted that but still. Like you said earlier, if Ulfric hadn't lead the charge, someone else would've.

On to your question though. Is Ulfric's xenophobia justified? Considering all his comrades he saw die at the hands of elves, returning home and having them deny him Talos, his city being filled with resource-consuming refugees who decline to fight for his cause? I don't know. I'll say in his defense it's more of a Nord thing than an Ulfric thing. Dunmer/Nord tensions especially have raged for centuries. At a time when outsiders are dragging people off in the night, and an alien-looking, Daedra-worshipping, all around grim people your ancestors have warred with for generations show up at your doorstep, how would you feel? Argonians and Dunmer have had recent troubles, which could explain his decision to separate them, to prevent violence. Even if it is a racial thing, Beastfolk aren't treated particularly well all across Tamriel. As for Reachmen, well I think most of us have rejected the majority of The Bear of Markarth. It was an Imperial Jarl who presided over most of the current Forsworn stituation, but I suppose the Silver-Bloods aren't going to make things much better. I don't think much can be done to appease the Forsworn at this point, sadly. He regretfully lays siege to Whiterun, it's Balgruuf who returns the axe. "If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better,". And that's him talking to his most devoted friend and general so no need for charismatic stuff. I wouldn't say that Stormcloak Whiterun is overly oppressed. The shopkeepers you can ask about say the guards don't buy as much from them, but Ulfric doesn't have a ton to do with that. The Battle-borns are way over-reacting, but I can understand their bitterness. I can't help but think of the Altmer and Imperials living comfortably in Windhelm and wonder if the Dunmer could be doing something differently.

Ulfric fights for the right of the Nords to rule their homeland as they see fit, just as Imperials rule Cyrodiil, Dunmer rule Morrowind, Argonians rule Black Marsh etc, etc...

Is Ulfric racist? Probably so, yes. Is the treatment of other races his doing alone? I'd say no. Are his actions justifiable? That's a matter of opinion. Understandable at least? I think so. Is it bad enough where he's worse than other people of considerable power on Tamriel and he's downright evil? I'd say no.

At the end of the day, racial tension seems like it will forever be a part of Tamriel. The Dunmer's enslavement of Beastfolk, the multiple sackings of Orsinium, Men vs. Mer in general. The Stormcloaks aren't the first, or the worst, but they seem to take the most hatred for it.


Not bad, this is a good summary. I can see you have worked very hard to empathize with the rebellion's feelings and portrayed this in a very comprehensive manner without jumping down the Empire's throat. Yet you can empathize with 'our' feelings on the matter as well. That is rare. :)

Too bad you weren't in Skyrim at the time. ;)

Thank you, I by no means hate the Empire, but I think the Nords have a right to rule their land, and I think the Empire is need of changes.

Ha, I'd probably have lasted about 5 seconds.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I disagree, if they had their eyes on the Imperial City from the beginning, they could fortified Southern Hammerfell quickly and then both armies would be in Cyrodiil. They may not even have stopped there and could've continued North because they'd be undistracted by anything on the other side of the Alik'r and they would've reached the capital faster and probably with less causalties.

They had their eyes on the Imperial City early in the war, soon after the invasion. Both armies in Cyrodiil would weaken their flank, Decianus was still out there. Southern Hammerfell was fortified rather quickly?

In Hammerfell, the Thalmor were content to consolidate their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline, which was in fact their stated objective in the ultimatum delivered to the Emperor. Of the southern cities, only Hegathe still held out.

Even once they reach the capital, they did not expect Titus to abandon the city. If they simply fortified Southern Hammerfell and left without dealing with the Legion there... Then Decianus would be marching down into County Chorrol with three armies and Titus moving south with two armies.

*Stormcloak to be, if you want to get nit-picky. If you look at what a lot of the Stormcloaks look like they look old enough to be veterans, at least a quarter of them.

They're randomly generated, but okay. They have Great War veterans, but so does the Empire and the Dominion.

They're still 2 good examples of the Stormcloak's espionage potential, and Galmar doesn't seem to distraught over resorting to it. Espionage was simply something the Stormcloakd couldn't invest into espionage during the rebellion.

Alright, so they stole documents from an Imperial Courier and they blackmailed a steward they knew worshipped Talos. Doesn't provide much in the way of counter intelligence against Thalmor espionage. Takes Tullius telling them the Thalmor are behind the war, even then it doesn't sink in much.

That's Esbern's take on it, the prophecy doesn't downright say civil war.

That is Alduin's wall on it. Alduin requires the war, because it gives him a constant supply of souls to regain his power. Though if you believe everyone is wrong on this, and that UESP should rewrite their pages. Share your thoughts.

Kingless, you said that "Torygg being a puppet King" where is your evidence for that? Besides Stormcloak dialogue who claim he was a puppet.

That's a passage from an Imperial-biased book, I gave you the only substantial times Nords have been divided over their King.

Passage from the largest sources of lore in TES. I quoted the Third Edition, the First Edition is the one that contains a lot of Imperial propaganda against the Aldmeri Dominion. You gave me two famous times when they had issues with who was High King. Conflicting nature doesn't just mean they couldn't pick a King, the Holds often fought with one another. Solitude and Winterhold being the most famous rivals. Besides the Jarls bickering, there are Clan wars.

And Hammerfell hasn't really not gotten on with Skyrim, they have warred ONCE (and that's impressive for bordering Tamrielic nations) and Jagar Tharn had a lot to do with that. Why would Hammerfell not ally with them? They're still not happy with the Empire, so a fellow independant nation who wants to stick it to the Dominion makes a lot more sense. High Rock would hop right on board without the Empire looking after them.

Warred twice in major conflicts. Why would Hammerfell not ally with Skyrim? Because they're weak, guarded by militia, ravaged by war and dragons. Not once does High Rock or Hammerfell attmept to aid the Stormcloaks against the Empire they're not happy with (Case with Hammerfell). Why would High Rock hop on board? They don't care for Skyrim, and they suffer from political problems.

Hammerfell believes they can defeat the Dominion with the Empire. They only blame Titus II, as do many others. With his death, it makes way for changes in policy.

There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.
 
Last edited:

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That sounds more like Skyrim remains an Imperial Province, but without the Concordat. Skyrim probably wouldn't agree to that half of that (Legion recruitment, still being so close to the empire in general) , and the Dominion would have something to say about it.

The only issues they have is the Concordat, many people still like the Legion (A Stormcloak Jarl mentions he misses the Legion life) though forget Legion recruitment as people would probably travel south if they wanted to join. Open borders, allowing the Legion to travel between Cyrodiil and High Rock.

What would the Dominion say? They have an Imperial army sitting on their doorstep. They can't exactly threaten the Empire to not release Skyrim.

Nords have been a LOT more tolerant to Orsimer than Bretons and Redguards. Orc Strongholds are left alone by Nords and everyone likes it that way. Orcs have long harassed humans of North-West Tamriel, which is why Orsinium has been destroyed so many times by them. And technically Orcs (or followers of Trinimac) kicked the Beastfolk out before Nords arrived.

Not true at all. Nords were generally about the same towards Orcs, though many of the Orcs in Skyrim descended from Yashnag's large chiefdom have an intense hatred towards the Nords and their Jarls than the Redguards/Bretons.

Orc Strongholds were not left alone by Nords, only since the Empire forces them to leave the Orcs alone, they do it. The resentment is however still there, and the Nord guards of Windhelm call the Orc Strongholds an affront to their people.

No pest has proven more resilient to the Nords of Skyrim than the common Orc. The tusked people claim occupancy of our fair realm, stretching back before the time Ysgramor crossed the Sea of Ghosts. Though few written accounts still exist of that time, there is mention in the histories of the Companions uprooting Orc strongholds even as they burned the Snow Elves from the land.

Many jarls are remembered in song for dying vainly while attempting to root a stronghold from their lands. Worse, destroyed strongholds often return within a generation of their destruction if not countered by a Nord fort that needs a constant supply of troops and provisions. Few jarls can afford to defend piles of rock for more than a few years, and thus the Orc strongholds remain a pox upon our land. Some strongholds have persisted in this way for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

Orc raiders do not condemn a race, the Nords have a history of raiding Cyrodiil/other provinces and even killing a Count just prior to Oblivion. Yes you do have some Orcs who raided, but there is more to them than war.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Alright, that's a good question. Well, being honest, I don't fully support Ulfric, there are things I would change about him. For instance I do not agree at all with the way he handled Torygg. Especially when (I believe it was) Sybille Stentor said that Torygg already respected Ulfric enough to give the matter of independence some thought. A peaceful Stormcloak Revoultion had me practically drooling. Maybe the Empire wouldn't have accepted that but still. Like you said earlier, if Ulfric hadn't lead the charge, someone else would've.

On to your question though. Is Ulfric's xenophobia justified? Considering all his comrades he saw die at the hands of elves, returning home and having them deny him Talos, his city being filled with resource-consuming refugees who decline to fight for his cause? I don't know. I'll say in his defense it's more of a Nord thing than an Ulfric thing. Dunmer/Nord tensions especially have raged for centuries. At a time when outsiders are dragging people off in the night, and an alien-looking, Daedra-worshipping, all around grim people your ancestors have warred with for generations show up at your doorstep, how would you feel? Argonians and Dunmer have had recent troubles, which could explain his decision to separate them, to prevent violence. Even if it is a racial thing, Beastfolk aren't treated particularly well all across Tamriel. As for Reachmen, well I think most of us have rejected the majority of The Bear of Markarth. It was an Imperial Jarl who presided over most of the current Forsworn stituation, but I suppose the Silver-Bloods aren't going to make things much better. I don't think much can be done to appease the Forsworn at this point, sadly. He regretfully lays siege to Whiterun, it's Balgruuf who returns the axe. "If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better,". And that's him talking to his most devoted friend and general so no need for charismatic stuff. I wouldn't say that Stormcloak Whiterun is overly oppressed. The shopkeepers you can ask about say the guards don't buy as much from them, but Ulfric doesn't have a ton to do with that. The Battle-borns are way over-reacting, but I can understand their bitterness. I can't help but think of the Altmer and Imperials living comfortably in Windhelm and wonder if the Dunmer could be doing something differently.

Ulfric fights for the right of the Nords to rule their homeland as they see fit, just as Imperials rule Cyrodiil, Dunmer rule Morrowind, Argonians rule Black Marsh etc, etc...

Is Ulfric racist? Probably so, yes. Is the treatment of other races his doing alone? I'd say no. Are his actions justifiable? That's a matter of opinion. Understandable at least? I think so. Is it bad enough where he's worse than other people of considerable power on Tamriel and he's downright evil? I'd say no.

At the end of the day, racial tension seems like it will forever be a part of Tamriel. The Dunmer's enslavement of Beastfolk, the multiple sackings of Orsinium, Men vs. Mer in general. The Stormcloaks aren't the first, or the worst, but they seem to take the most hatred for it.


Not bad, this is a good summary. I can see you have worked very hard to empathize with the rebellion's feelings and portrayed this in a very comprehensive manner without jumping down the Empire's throat. Yet you can empathize with 'our' feelings on the matter as well. That is rare. :)

Too bad you weren't in Skyrim at the time. ;)

Thank you, I by no means hate the Empire, but I think the Nords have a right to rule their land, and I think the Empire is need of changes.

Ha, I'd probably have lasted about 5 seconds.


Bingo. When this Civil War is over, whomever is left standing needs to sit down around a kitchen table, relax and think critically about how to restore some trust thru communication.

And unfort, again I say unfort, your best chance of this happening is for TMII and Ulfric to get out of the way, this will effectively de-polarize the politics. And to be frank, I don't feel that either can be trusted ever again. Like Mage said though, Hammerfell is the key and whoever is left had better get some channels going with Hammerfell.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I still think the Redguards should take parts of Skyrim. This is the first time the Redguards have been united for a very long time, and they're going to be a major player in upcoming series if they remain united. Could see some changes in borders and expansion from the Redguards, very militaristic people.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
I disagree, if they had their eyes on the Imperial City from the beginning, they could fortified Southern Hammerfell quickly and then both armies would be in Cyrodiil. They may not even have stopped there and could've continued North because they'd be undistracted by anything on the other side of the Alik'r and they would've reached the capital faster and probably with less causalties.

They had their eyes on the Imperial City early in the war, soon after the invasion. Both armies in Cyrodiil would weaken their flank, Decianus was still out there. Southern Hammerfell was fortified rather quickly?

In Hammerfell, the Thalmor were content to consolidate their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline, which was in fact their stated objective in the ultimatum delivered to the Emperor. Of the southern cities, only Hegathe still held out.

Even once they reach the capital, they did not expect Titus to abandon the city. If they simply fortified Southern Hammerfell and left without dealing with the Legion there... Then Decianus would be marching down into County Chorrol with three armies and Titus moving south with two armies.

*Stormcloak to be, if you want to get nit-picky. If you look at what a lot of the Stormcloaks look like they look old enough to be veterans, at least a quarter of them.

They're randomly generated, but okay. They have Great War veterans, but so does the Empire and the Dominion.

They're still 2 good examples of the Stormcloak's espionage potential, and Galmar doesn't seem to distraught over resorting to it. Espionage was simply something the Stormcloakd couldn't invest into espionage during the rebellion.

Alright, so they stole documents from an Imperial Courier and they blackmailed a steward they knew worshipped Talos. Doesn't provide much in the way of counter intelligence against Thalmor espionage. Takes Tullius telling them the Thalmor are behind the war, even then it doesn't sink in much.

That's Esbern's take on it, the prophecy doesn't downright say civil war.

That is Alduin's wall on it. Alduin requires the war, because it gives him a constant supply of souls to regain his power. Though if you believe everyone is wrong on this, and that UESP should rewrite their pages. Share your thoughts.

Kingless, you said that "Torygg being a puppet King" where is your evidence for that? Besides Stormcloak dialogue who claim he was a puppet.

That's a passage from an Imperial-biased book, I gave you the only substantial times Nords have been divided over their King.

Passage from the largest sources of lore in TES. I quoted the Third Edition, the First Edition is the one that contains a lot of Imperial propaganda against the Aldmeri Dominion. You gave me two famous times when they had issues with who was High King. Conflicting nature doesn't just mean they couldn't pick a King, the Holds often fought with one another. Solitude and Winterhold being the most famous rivals. Besides the Jarls bickering, there are Clan wars.

And Hammerfell hasn't really not gotten on with Skyrim, they have warred ONCE (and that's impressive for bordering Tamrielic nations) and Jagar Tharn had a lot to do with that. Why would Hammerfell not ally with them? They're still not happy with the Empire, so a fellow independant nation who wants to stick it to the Dominion makes a lot more sense. High Rock would hop right on board without the Empire looking after them.

Warred twice in major conflicts. Why would Hammerfell not ally with Skyrim? Because they're weak, guarded by militia, ravaged by war and dragons. Not once does High Rock or Hammerfell attmept to aid the Stormcloaks against the Empire they're not happy with (Case with Hammerfell). Why would High Rock hop on board? They don't care for Skyrim, and they suffer from political problems.

Hammerfell believes they can defeat the Dominion with the Empire. They only blame Titus II, as do many others. With his death, it makes way for changes in policy.

There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.

And the Dominion may have been able to move fast enough to capture the city with few enough losses to continue their advance or fortify the city enough to hold it. It seems like Titus's escape was lucky, wouldn't work everytime or every king who's ever had their city taken would've done it.

I'm pointing out the Stormcloaks are on level with the empire on experience, if not more considering their militaristic culture.

And they had to discover the guy worshipped Talos when the Thalmor (living in the same building as him) hadnt. They know the war was what the Thalmor wanted, they also know an independant Skyrim is something they don't want.

Well, like Fasendil and I have said, if it wasn't Ulfric it'd be someone else.

I think YOU said it in one of our discussions a while back, when you were saying about how an independent Skyrim would fall apart from the inside. Forgive me if I'm wrong (I don't really feel like sifting through pages of civil war debate) but I think you said something along the lines of "there's a reason Skyrim's always had a puppet King."

Clans are pretty much non-existent now, or they're all rich and haven't lifted a sword in generations. Why you believe Skyrim's few divisions indicate they would crash and burn when:
-Forebears and Crowns for centuries in Hammerfell
-Dozens of bickering City States in High Rock
-Elsweyr's dissolution and brief independence of a few city-states
-Morrowind's great houses constantly at odds with one another
-Cyrodiil's counties warring and maintaining independence from one another for years on and off and division of Nibenay and the Colovian Estates

It's not like Skyrim would expect Hammerfell to look after them or anything, it'd be a military alliance, that would force High Rock on board with them. Skyrim is CURRENTLY guarded by militia, you cannot ignore that Ulfric would be building an army of warriors who know a thing or two about war. They are unable to aid the Stormcloaks because 1. They are still rebuilding from their war with the Dominion, and 2. They don't share a border with any of the Stormcloak controlled holds so communication and transportation would be basically impossible.

That's not a Redguard account, and even so, in my hypothetical stituation they'd be allying with half that Empire anyway.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
That sounds more like Skyrim remains an Imperial Province, but without the Concordat. Skyrim probably wouldn't agree to that half of that (Legion recruitment, still being so close to the empire in general) , and the Dominion would have something to say about it.

The only issues they have is the Concordat, many people still like the Legion (A Stormcloak Jarl mentions he misses the Legion life) though forget Legion recruitment as people would probably travel south if they wanted to join. Open borders, allowing the Legion to travel between Cyrodiil and High Rock.

What would the Dominion say? They have an Imperial army sitting on their doorstep. They can't exactly threaten the Empire to not release Skyrim.

Nords have been a LOT more tolerant to Orsimer than Bretons and Redguards. Orc Strongholds are left alone by Nords and everyone likes it that way. Orcs have long harassed humans of North-West Tamriel, which is why Orsinium has been destroyed so many times by them. And technically Orcs (or followers of Trinimac) kicked the Beastfolk out before Nords arrived.

Not true at all. Nords were generally about the same towards Orcs, though many of the Orcs in Skyrim descended from Yashnag's large chiefdom have an intense hatred towards the Nords and their Jarls than the Redguards/Bretons.

Orc Strongholds were not left alone by Nords, only since the Empire forces them to leave the Orcs alone, they do it. The resentment is however still there, and the Nord guards of Windhelm call the Orc Strongholds an affront to their people.

No pest has proven more resilient to the Nords of Skyrim than the common Orc. The tusked people claim occupancy of our fair realm, stretching back before the time Ysgramor crossed the Sea of Ghosts. Though few written accounts still exist of that time, there is mention in the histories of the Companions uprooting Orc strongholds even as they burned the Snow Elves from the land.

Many jarls are remembered in song for dying vainly while attempting to root a stronghold from their lands. Worse, destroyed strongholds often return within a generation of their destruction if not countered by a Nord fort that needs a constant supply of troops and provisions. Few jarls can afford to defend piles of rock for more than a few years, and thus the Orc strongholds remain a pox upon our land. Some strongholds have persisted in this way for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

Orc raiders do not condemn a race, the Nords have a history of raiding Cyrodiil/other provinces and even killing a Count just prior to Oblivion. Yes you do have some Orcs who raided, but there is more to them than war.

The Dominion seems to have a lot of power over the Empire, what with Elenwen inviting herself to High Hrothgar as an example off the top of my head. I don't think the Empire would invade the Dominion over not being allowed to grant independence to a province.

Eastmarch leaves Narulzabur alone, sure they don't like it being there but they let them be. Also I believe we were talking about the Nords unfairness towards orcs, while you just said it was orcs who are "pests" to the Nords. There's a reason Orsinium keeps getting destroyed.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
I still think the Redguards should take parts of Skyrim. This is the first time the Redguards have been united for a very long time, and they're going to be a major player in upcoming series if they remain united. Could see some changes in borders and expansion from the Redguards, very militaristic people.

It be stupid to make an enemy of Skyrim while the 2nd Great War is around the corner. It does seem like things hinge on Hammerfell, but it's not like they'll side with the Dominion. It's more like how much they can rebuild and prepare.

Also, the Redguards are warriors but aren't very keen on the military. They don't enjoy marching and that sorta stuff. They prefer adventuring and clans. I'd say that's a united Hammerfell's weakness, how well their army can function together as an army, not individual warriors.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Not bad, this is a good summary. I can see you have worked very hard to empathize with the rebellion's feelings and portrayed this in a very comprehensive manner without jumping down the Empire's throat. Yet you can empathize with 'our' feelings on the matter as well. That is rare. :)

Too bad you weren't in Skyrim at the time. ;)

Thank you, I by no means hate the Empire, but I think the Nords have a right to rule their land, and I think the Empire is need of changes.

Ha, I'd probably have lasted about 5 seconds.


Bingo. When this Civil War is over, whomever is left standing needs to sit down around a kitchen table, relax and think critically about how to restore some trust thru communication.

And unfort, again I say unfort, your best chance of this happening is for TMII and Ulfric to get out of the way, this will effectively de-polarize the politics. And to be frank, I don't feel that either can be trusted ever again. Like Mage said though, Hammerfell is the key and whoever is left had better get some channels going with Hammerfell.

That's another con against the Empire IMO, with Mede's death (as much as I'm not a fan of him) will severely throw the Empire off balance, Motierrie picked a real bad time for his little coup. Even if Titus has a heir, we don't know his age, he could be a little kid for all we know or he may not even exist. Plus even if he's a decent aged adult you've got half the Elder Council trying to weasel in their own agendas.

My grim prediction for ES6 is the Dominion has taken most of or all of Cyrodiil, maybe the Empire has relocated to Skyrim or High Rock, and those provinces along with Hammerfell hold out against the Elves. If we're lucky and they haven't taken over everything. Anyway it could be interesting to play under occupied Tamriel. Just a prediction, based on it making the civil war irrelevant and an interesting storyline which shines more light on the Dominion.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
That sounds more like Skyrim remains an Imperial Province, but without the Concordat. Skyrim probably wouldn't agree to that half of that (Legion recruitment, still being so close to the empire in general) , and the Dominion would have something to say about it.

The only issues they have is the Concordat, many people still like the Legion (A Stormcloak Jarl mentions he misses the Legion life) though forget Legion recruitment as people would probably travel south if they wanted to join. Open borders, allowing the Legion to travel between Cyrodiil and High Rock.

What would the Dominion say? They have an Imperial army sitting on their doorstep. They can't exactly threaten the Empire to not release Skyrim.

Nords have been a LOT more tolerant to Orsimer than Bretons and Redguards. Orc Strongholds are left alone by Nords and everyone likes it that way. Orcs have long harassed humans of North-West Tamriel, which is why Orsinium has been destroyed so many times by them. And technically Orcs (or followers of Trinimac) kicked the Beastfolk out before Nords arrived.

Not true at all. Nords were generally about the same towards Orcs, though many of the Orcs in Skyrim descended from Yashnag's large chiefdom have an intense hatred towards the Nords and their Jarls than the Redguards/Bretons.

Orc Strongholds were not left alone by Nords, only since the Empire forces them to leave the Orcs alone, they do it. The resentment is however still there, and the Nord guards of Windhelm call the Orc Strongholds an affront to their people.

No pest has proven more resilient to the Nords of Skyrim than the common Orc. The tusked people claim occupancy of our fair realm, stretching back before the time Ysgramor crossed the Sea of Ghosts. Though few written accounts still exist of that time, there is mention in the histories of the Companions uprooting Orc strongholds even as they burned the Snow Elves from the land.

Many jarls are remembered in song for dying vainly while attempting to root a stronghold from their lands. Worse, destroyed strongholds often return within a generation of their destruction if not countered by a Nord fort that needs a constant supply of troops and provisions. Few jarls can afford to defend piles of rock for more than a few years, and thus the Orc strongholds remain a pox upon our land. Some strongholds have persisted in this way for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

Orc raiders do not condemn a race, the Nords have a history of raiding Cyrodiil/other provinces and even killing a Count just prior to Oblivion. Yes you do have some Orcs who raided, but there is more to them than war.

The Dominion seems to have a lot of power over the Empire, what with Elenwen inviting herself to High Hrothgar as an example off the top of my head. I don't think the Empire would invade the Dominion over not being allowed to grant independence to a province.

Eastmarch leaves Narulzabur alone, sure they don't like it being there but they let them be. Also I believe we were talking about the Nords unfairness towards orcs, while you just said it was orcs who are "pests" to the Nords. There's a reason Orsinium keeps getting destroyed.


This is exactly why Titus Mede II should resign or step aside. Although he is a good man and it's because of his family that any Empire exists at all, he lost his nerve and the Imperials have become way too attached to him. Any other time, this wouldn't be a problem except I'm not so sure he has the spine left to put the Thalmor back in their place or at least put the Empire on even footing with them again. Because the Thalmor will tell you how the 'Emperor' was allowing them license to operate in Skyrim. What he should have done, was told them to 'go to hell' "I've got this" once the problems in Skyrim began.

Alas, signing the WGC was one thing. We could sit here and debate the wisdom behind ending the war by any means necessary and I would agree on those grounds. However, Titus Mede II had the opportunity to be firm and tell the Thalmor 'NO' after the Markarth Incident and he instead just let them take charge of the ban on Talos worship, which is to say take over. This is not healthy. This is bad, nay worse than bad, signing the WGC was bad.

So the Thalmor husseled the Emperor and he failed the test. Signing the WGC and disbanding the blades is one thing ~ allowing a foreign power license to arrest, harass and infuriate your people is very, very bad. That is why he should no longer be Emperor. This does not mean he was necessarily a bad Emperor, it's just he is unable to properly perform the duties of his office and we'll never be completely rid of him and his admin without the Dark Brotherhood.

Now, the Elder Council (and Gen Tullius) both seem like they want to take things in a different direction, so the Emperor's death coupled with an Elder Council and Military wanting change and willing to stand up for the Empire is prob the Empire's only saving grace, yet, it is sufficient. ;)

Also, don't expect Hammerfell to join forces with Ulfric so quickly, some Redguards blame Ulfric because he did not assist Hammerfell in their war effort against the Dominion, going after Markarth and pursuing his own personal agenda instead. (This was when he was cooperating with the Thalmor, which makes it even worse. If word got out about that Dossier, Hammerfell would never join with the Stormcloaks because when Hammerfell's need was most dire, Ulfric would rather cooperate with the Thalmor than save them.) :/

Furthermore, Highrock never even gave the Stormcloaks an answer when they asked for help.
 
Last edited:

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Thank you, I by no means hate the Empire, but I think the Nords have a right to rule their land, and I think the Empire is need of changes.

Ha, I'd probably have lasted about 5 seconds.


Bingo. When this Civil War is over, whomever is left standing needs to sit down around a kitchen table, relax and think critically about how to restore some trust thru communication.

And unfort, again I say unfort, your best chance of this happening is for TMII and Ulfric to get out of the way, this will effectively de-polarize the politics. And to be frank, I don't feel that either can be trusted ever again. Like Mage said though, Hammerfell is the key and whoever is left had better get some channels going with Hammerfell.

That's another con against the Empire IMO, with Mede's death (as much as I'm not a fan of him) will severely throw the Empire off balance, Motierrie picked a real bad time for his little coup. Even if Titus has a heir, we don't know his age, he could be a little kid for all we know or he may not even exist. Plus even if he's a decent aged adult you've got half the Elder Council trying to weasel in their own agendas.

My grim prediction for ES6 is the Dominion has taken most of or all of Cyrodiil, maybe the Empire has relocated to Skyrim or High Rock, and those provinces along with Hammerfell hold out against the Elves. If we're lucky and they haven't taken over everything. Anyway it could be interesting to play under occupied Tamriel. Just a prediction, based on it making the civil war irrelevant and an interesting storyline which shines more light on the Dominion.


Although Gen Tully prob wasn't in on it, the Elder Council planned Emp Mede's demise and waited for the opp to strike. Perhaps not the entire council, Motierrie however did not do this alone. The Council ordered the hit.

Empire will be just fine without Mede.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And the Dominion may have been able to move fast enough to capture the city with few enough losses to continue their advance or fortify the city enough to hold it. It seems like Titus's escape was lucky, wouldn't work everytime or every king who's ever had their city taken would've done it.

We don't know how fast they may have been able to move, even still they weren't expecting Titus to abandon the city, it was more than luck. Many rulers do have means to escape, the Septim's had the sewers. Not every King would abandon their city.

I'm pointing out the Stormcloaks are on level with the empire on experience, if not more considering their militaristic culture.

Except they're not on level, they're fighting the weakest the Empire has to offer. Empire has highly trained Legions, Battlemages, Rangers, Spies, Assassins, Naval warships etc.

It doesn't matter if they're a Militaristic culture (Though they're more of a warrior society, since it isn't so much tactics but the strength and honor of the individual) half of Cyrodiil is a Militaristic Culture. The Colovians are the more Nordic Imperials, and majority of their nobility are Military Officers.

And they had to discover the guy worshipped Talos when the Thalmor (living in the same building as him) hadnt.

Did it ever occur they might have likely learned that during the Markarth Incident? When Talos worship was restored and Igmund's uncle was present.

They know the war was what the Thalmor wanted, they also know an independant Skyrim is something they don't want.

They don't know. They believe they're fighting for their own reasons, and being independent is to show the elves they won't be slaves. They have absolutely no idea what the Thalmor want or don't want.

Well, like Fasendil and I have said, if it wasn't Ulfric it'd be someone else.

So you both assume, for all we know that "someone else" might have been diplomatic.

I think YOU said it in one of our discussions a while back, when you were saying about how an independent Skyrim would fall apart from the inside. Forgive me if I'm wrong (I don't really feel like sifting through pages of civil war debate) but I think you said something along the lines of "there's a reason Skyrim's always had a puppet King."

Well if I did say that, I was mistaken. The Empire does not decide who becomes the High King, though Ulfric is against how the Moot is currently established. Which hasn't changed since the First War of Succession, so maybe he seeks to go real "Old Days".

Remove Ulfric from the picture, good chance he won't actually live, neither would Tullius. Without Ulfric, do you believe the Stormcloak Jarls are suited to rule this new independent country?

Clans are pretty much non-existent now, or they're all rich and haven't lifted a sword in generations.

Clans are still there, every city has the major clans. They're rich, which means they can hire others or rally septs of their clans.

Why you believe Skyrim's few divisions indicate they would crash and burn when:
-Forebears and Crowns for centuries in Hammerfell

Which left Hammerfell greatly weakened, and open to invasion several times. That division allowed the Dominion to dispatch their disunited forces without much effort and control huge parts of their province for nearly a decade and during the Imperial Simulacrum allowed the Nords to take many miles of their land, including cities.

-Dozens of bickering City States in High Rock

Lost the major city of Wayrest the so called 'Jewel of the Bay' to corsairs. Politically unreliable to do much outside of their province.

-Elsweyr's dissolution and brief independence of a few city-states

Caused many issues, think the TES novels briefly mentioned them... and allowed the Thalmor to take hold.

-Morrowind's great houses constantly at odds with one another

Which caused a plopsload of issues throughout their history.

-Cyrodiil's counties warring and maintaining independence from one another for years on and off and division of Nibenay and the Colovian Estates

Which is when an Empire has fallen, which leads to dark times for many in Tamriel. Didn't Tamriel nearly get pulled into Coldharbour during one of these periods? That isn't a good defense.

It's not like Skyrim would expect Hammerfell to look after them or anything, it'd be a military alliance, that would force High Rock on board with them. Skyrim is CURRENTLY guarded by militia, you cannot ignore that Ulfric would be building an army of warriors who know a thing or two about war. They are unable to aid the Stormcloaks because 1. They are still rebuilding from their war with the Dominion, and 2. They don't share a border with any of the Stormcloak controlled holds so communication and transportation would be basically impossible.

What does Hammerfell get out of this alliance? The Stormcloaks don't have a trained army, and won't anytime soon. Skyrim has just been ravaged by Civil War and Dragons, the war hasn't completely ended. Another Legion force is getting ready to march into Skyrim/Ulfric could become a martyr for remaining rebels.

For your two points. 1. We don't know what they're doing, even if they're rebuilding it doesn't stop Military action and they wouldn't need huge numbers of soldiers, the Legion is quite weak in Skyrim.

2. a) High Rock doesn't share a border either, yet they're hoping to hear anything from the Bretons. (Though it didn't sound like Ulfric actually reached out, but was more hoping they would hear of his rebellion and help them)

b) It is called ships, Windhelm and Dawnstar are ports. If an Altmer woman can get passage to Ulfric's city from Summerset Isle, a couple of ships from Hammerfell can't drop soldiers? If I remember right there actually is a ship from Hammerfell docked in Windhelm, so it isn't impossible. Hammerfell bordering Imperial controlled Holds would be a benefit, it is called flanking.

That's not a Redguard account, and even so, in my hypothetical stituation they'd be allying with half that Empire anyway.

The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire

Your hypothetical situation is great, except it overlooks the small detail of... Nearly the entire Imperial Army from that half is in Cyrodiil. So my hypothetical situation, they would give the finger to High Rock and Skyrim and side with the province who has the forces they wanted to join with.

Now my points:

1) We have a trained army in position already.
2) We weren't just ravaged by Dragons and various civil war battles.
3) We can reach the Aldmeri Dominion, and we have a navy that doesn't have to be built last minute. That helps when your foe's capital is an island.

The Dominion seems to have a lot of power over the Empire, what with Elenwen inviting herself to High Hrothgar as an example off the top of my head.

Yet Tullius can tell her to piss off in Helgan, most like. Elenwen was simply there so the Empire doesn't grant them free Talos worship again. Unofficially, she was probably there to try disrupt both sides so they don't agree to peace. She does take jabs at the Stormcloaks and Empire.

I wouldn't say they have a lot of power over the Empire, if they did, Imperial victory wouldn't undermine their entire position.

I don't think the Empire would invade the Dominion over not being allowed to grant independence to a province.

Wars have been fought for less. We conquered Tamriel just about twice for no real reason. Hell, we sailed all the way to Akavir and tried to invade that for absolutely no reason.

But seriously, I wasn't talking about invading. The Thalmor can't tell the Empire not to release Skyrim, because they'd do it just out of spite then.

Eastmarch leaves Narulzabur alone, sure they don't like it being there but they let them be.

Last time I checked, Eastmarch was fighting a rebellion. If they apparently don't have enough men to investigate a murder, they're not about to attack an Orc stronghold at that moment in time. Besides, the Stormcloaks would all die in such an attempt. Though that wouldn't be too bad, go for it son, show those green mean fighting machines Nord steel.

Also I believe we were talking about the Nords unfairness towards orcs, while you just said it was orcs who are "pests" to the Nords.

...What? Are you telling me a book written by a Nord who calls them pests for not simply dying and being driven out of Skyrim, because the Nords don't like Orc Strongholds in their realm. Has nothing to do with Nord unfairness to Orcs? Really?

There's a reason Orsinium keeps getting destroyed.

Keeps getting? What twice? Windhelm has been sacked twice, three times if the Imperials win the Civil War.
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top