Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
1. The Thalmor were just as exhausted from the war as the Empire and did not have the resources to go haul off farmers in Skyrim as soon as the Concordat was signed, they were working towards that. Ulfric or not, things probably wouldn't be that different by the events of Skyrim, probably worse because the Eastern Holds wouldn't be protected and the roads would be in better shape.

The Thalmor only have increased presence due to the rebellion. Prior to the Stormcloaks going on about it, it took seven days of someone going on about Talos in public for them to get "kidnapped". A lot of the issues with the Thalmor are recent, and the reasons they're doing it is to send supporters to Ulfric's banner.

Skyrim wouldn't be worse without Ulfric's actions.

The Thalmor would still be limited, the Empire would still be ignoring all the secret worship that had been going on for twenty five years.

Bandits would not be raiding villages and farms, slaughtering many people with their out of control growth since the rebellion.

Alduin wouldn't be trying to enslave the world, and Dragons attacking everything all over Skyrim.

The Empire would be preparing for the Second Great War without any distractions. Being completely focused on the Aldmeri Dominion.

Skyrim would be prospering with trade, and huge numbers of civilians wouldn't be starving.

Besides all of that... It would be worse, cause the Empire keeps the roads in good shape.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
So you think that Lokir went up to a horse, stole it, rode it away for 5 seconds, then got off and surrendered? Yea no.

There was definitely some occurrences of capture from the Thalmor upon those who didn't worship quietly, but Ulfric is the one that increased Thalmor presence in Skyrim. Thanks to him, Nords were/are being taken captive 10x more than usual.

Also just a quick note, have you noticed that everytime you see a prisoner being escorted captive like by the Thalmor they are Stormcloaks? Not once does it say "farmer" or a race.

"I COULD'VE stolen that horse and been halfway to Hammerfell.". Sounds like he didn't even mount it. Lokir isn't a fight-to-the-death kinda guy I'd say, so yeah I'd guess he surrendered pretty fast. He probably expected some jail time, but not execution.

As for the whole: "well the Stormcloaks could've just shut up and worshipped Talos in secret"
Two things:
1. The Thalmor were just as exhausted from the war as the Empire and did not have the resources to go haul off farmers in Skyrim as soon as the Concordat was signed, they were working towards that. Ulfric or not, things probably wouldn't be that different by the events of Skyrim, probably worse because the Eastern Holds wouldn't be protected and the roads would be in better shape.
2. Nordic culture is not timid or sneaky. If your worshipping Talos (basically a personification of Skyrim) in secret, your not doing it right. The Nords aren't going to be bossed around, whether they can get away with it or not, just being told they can't worship Talos is bad enough for them.


Well... about #1. Their deployed forces were exhausted. Two armies were essentially routed. Lady what's her name escaped from Hammerfell with some of her army however the effort in Cyrodil just completely fell apart because Lord Naarafin got greedy and abandoned his objectives. It was like Germany taking on Russia... just no way to win because there's so much to take. However, unlike that scenario, in this case the Imperials didn't have the forces to take advantage of the resulting chaos in Dominion's failed offense... neither did Hammerfell because everyone was caught off guard in the beginning.

Now, consider the fact that most of the Dominion infrastructure survived the war, whereas Hammerfell and Cyrodil took a direct hit. So, the Dominion could have continued the war however it would have taken time to get boots deployed again however, by this time both Cyrodil and Hammerfell had the high ground and the Dominion after losing so much ground decided to stop and rethink they life. :)

As for Ulfric, he had the option to just rule the Eastern Holds and Empire wouldn't have cared otherwise. Not for a long time at least. It's when he killed the High King the Empire became interested in him. However, I get the feeling that even if Ulfric hadn't rose up someone else would've. And rightly so. Still, killing the Empire is wrong, for Talos sake that should have been the last choice on the list not the first. :/


#2 Is an interesting point. Here's my take on it. Talos doesn't care. All these plp who worship him, he's not that kind of deity, if he's a deity at all. His plp are the shouters. The ones who know how to use the Thu'um and *Follows the Way of the Voice*. That's his flock. So if you can't shout or do not have a heart after these values, then he's not your God.

And that is an issue because in the past Imperials worshiped him for what he did for the Empire, yet he doesn't care about the Empire. So the Imperials finally have 'woken up' and realize this. Talos also fought against all the Nords who resisted him, one story I remember is how Dawnstar Nords fiercely resisted Tiber Septim.

So in summation, Talos is really not the Imperials God or the Nords God. He stands for something different altogether that coincidentally helped the Imperials and Nords, yet he didn't do it for them. Or perhaps he did, yet Nords and Empire are not what he represents.

Therefore, as an Imperial or a Nord, you could get away with supporting a ban on Talos worship. One more thing too... Titus Mede II set the standard on Talos worship by banning it officially yet wearing his Talos amulet out of sight. I think that's why the dev left it like that, so if this was the Empire's actual intentions to ban Talos worship officially yet allow it in private, I can still support the Empire on this because technically there's nothing wrong with that.

They're protecting the Imperial Gov by not honoring a God who doesn't care about the Empire yet his plp can still worship him if they choose to do so privately. Makes sense to me. ;)

What I meant was the Dominion wasn't in any shape to enforce the ban on Talos right off the bat. They had wounds to heal, they had to tie down their borders in Valenwood and Elsweyr. Justiciars did not exist, or at least not with the purpose of rooting out Talos worshippers. They had no base of operations in Skyrim either.

The quest is called Liberation of Skyrim for a reason, the Stormcloaks are fighting for their countrymen, and they have no chance of forming an army or a new alliance with High Rock or Hammerfell to combat the Dominion if it's just the Old Holds. Also, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are not enemies. Ulfric refuses to begin the siege of Solitude if the Emporer is visiting. The Stormcloaks don't wish to overthrow the whole Empire, they just believe that the Empire has forfeited their right to rule Skyrim after the Concordat.

I have to disagree with you here, I think that Kyne/Kynareth is the patron of those who can shout. If not her, then Akatosh. Also Talos went right against the Way of the Voice, in that he used it in combat which the Way of the Voice forbids. Talos is "The Hero-God of Mankind". I'm not sure why you think Talos doesn't care if he's worshipped or not, no one can really know the mind of a god. Also there's a theory in TES that worship has a direct effect on deities and their amount of power. I don't think that the Imperials just said "you know what, these elves (who just razed our homeland to the ground) are right, boy we were stupid!".
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
"I COULD'VE stolen that horse and been halfway to Hammerfell.". Sounds like he didn't even mount it. Lokir isn't a fight-to-the-death kinda guy I'd say, so yeah I'd guess he surrendered pretty fast. He probably expected some jail time, but not execution.

As for the whole: "well the Stormcloaks could've just shut up and worshipped Talos in secret"
Two things:
1. The Thalmor were just as exhausted from the war as the Empire and did not have the resources to go haul off farmers in Skyrim as soon as the Concordat was signed, they were working towards that. Ulfric or not, things probably wouldn't be that different by the events of Skyrim, probably worse because the Eastern Holds wouldn't be protected and the roads would be in better shape.
2. Nordic culture is not timid or sneaky. If your worshipping Talos (basically a personification of Skyrim) in secret, your not doing it right. The Nords aren't going to be bossed around, whether they can get away with it or not, just being told they can't worship Talos is bad enough for them.


Well... about #1. Their deployed forces were exhausted. Two armies were essentially routed. Lady what's her name escaped from Hammerfell with some of her army however the effort in Cyrodil just completely fell apart because Lord Naarafin got greedy and abandoned his objectives. It was like Germany taking on Russia... just no way to win because there's so much to take. However, unlike that scenario, in this case the Imperials didn't have the forces to take advantage of the resulting chaos in Dominion's failed offense... neither did Hammerfell because everyone was caught off guard in the beginning.

Now, consider the fact that most of the Dominion infrastructure survived the war, whereas Hammerfell and Cyrodil took a direct hit. So, the Dominion could have continued the war however it would have taken time to get boots deployed again however, by this time both Cyrodil and Hammerfell had the high ground and the Dominion after losing so much ground decided to stop and rethink they life. :)

As for Ulfric, he had the option to just rule the Eastern Holds and Empire wouldn't have cared otherwise. Not for a long time at least. It's when he killed the High King the Empire became interested in him. However, I get the feeling that even if Ulfric hadn't rose up someone else would've. And rightly so. Still, killing the Empire is wrong, for Talos sake that should have been the last choice on the list not the first. :/


#2 Is an interesting point. Here's my take on it. Talos doesn't care. All these plp who worship him, he's not that kind of deity, if he's a deity at all. His plp are the shouters. The ones who know how to use the Thu'um and *Follows the Way of the Voice*. That's his flock. So if you can't shout or do not have a heart after these values, then he's not your God.

And that is an issue because in the past Imperials worshiped him for what he did for the Empire, yet he doesn't care about the Empire. So the Imperials finally have 'woken up' and realize this. Talos also fought against all the Nords who resisted him, one story I remember is how Dawnstar Nords fiercely resisted Tiber Septim.

So in summation, Talos is really not the Imperials God or the Nords God. He stands for something different altogether that coincidentally helped the Imperials and Nords, yet he didn't do it for them. Or perhaps he did, yet Nords and Empire are not what he represents.

Therefore, as an Imperial or a Nord, you could get away with supporting a ban on Talos worship. One more thing too... Titus Mede II set the standard on Talos worship by banning it officially yet wearing his Talos amulet out of sight. I think that's why the dev left it like that, so if this was the Empire's actual intentions to ban Talos worship officially yet allow it in private, I can still support the Empire on this because technically there's nothing wrong with that.

They're protecting the Imperial Gov by not honoring a God who doesn't care about the Empire yet his plp can still worship him if they choose to do so privately. Makes sense to me. ;)

What I meant was the Dominion wasn't in any shape to enforce the ban on Talos right off the bat. They had wounds to heal, they had to tie down their borders in Valenwood and Elsweyr. Justiciars did not exist, or at least not with the purpose of rooting out Talos worshippers. They had no base of operations in Skyrim either.

The quest is called Liberation of Skyrim for a reason, the Stormcloaks are fighting for their countrymen, and they have no chance of forming an army or a new alliance with High Rock or Hammerfell to combat the Dominion if it's just the Old Holds. Also, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are not enemies. Ulfric refuses to begin the siege of Solitude if the Emporer is visiting. The Stormcloaks don't wish to overthrow the whole Empire, they just believe that the Empire has forfeited their right to rule Skyrim after the Concordat.

I have to disagree with you here, I think that Kyne/Kynareth is the patron of those who can shout. If not her, then Akatosh. Also Talos went right against the Way of the Voice, in that he used it in combat which the Way of the Voice forbids. Talos is "The Hero-God of Mankind". I'm not sure why you think Talos doesn't care if he's worshipped or not, no one can really know the mind of a god. Also there's a theory in TES that worship has a direct effect on deities and their amount of power. I don't think that the Imperials just said "you know what, these elves (who just razed our homeland to the ground) are right, boy we were stupid!".


Right, the enforcing of the WGC was at first left to the Empire, whom didn't enforce it outside of the Gov.

Didn't say anything about the Civil War or quest itself, honestly though whatever reason people have for supporting Ulfric, seeing how his is a charismatic cause, I'm more concerned about his reason(s). Remember, you are not allowed to question Ulfric or Galmar, per Ulfric.

Tiber Setptim did alot of pl*ps. However, his blessing is what... 'fort shout'. And if he's deity, then he blesses those who follow in his footsteps.

As far as the mind of God, there's a tome on Boethiah, which I forget the name, (I'm terrible with names) where she is summoned by her worshippers. Perhaps you've read it before?

And about the Imperials, wouldn't you feel stupid? Personally as someone whose been to hell and back, I would rather feel stupid and be alive than the alternative.

Your 'Talos' left the Empire to be raped and pillaged. You mentioned 'Wulfhearth' I think?

Talos doesn't care anymore, save for those who follow him. So why should everyone else make over a God, nay DIE for a God, who will not die for them? Or can even relate to them?
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Yes, the Thalmor are crafty but that's no excuse for barely even being able to muster any resistance until they've almost reached the capital.

Element of surprise. It took well over a year to reach the lake that surrounds the Imperial City and then two more years to take the capital. So where do you even get "barely even being able to muster any resistance"? The Thalmor didn't simply waltz in without a fight.

What did they think the Thalmor were doing, severing contact for all that time and overthrowing two Imperial governments, as well as claiming Elsweyr?

For Summerset Isle, no one really cared or believed the stories about the Thalmor at the time. This was in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis and Red Mountain. Then the Stormcrown Interregnum with mass infighting. When Valenwood was taken by a government coup (A lot of Bosmer support) it did spark concern. The Penitus Oculatus were dealing with Thalmor espionage, and even planting agents inside Thalmor nests.

Elsweyr joined the Dominion willingly, no issues. They weren't even part of the Empire for a hundred years I think. So I doubt they cared too much about that.

What did they think about it all? That the Thalmor were a threat. Not a Military threat at the time, but a political and espionage threat.

Your argument about it being stupid to be sitting around on the border is exactly what they're doing now.

Sitting around for a hundred and fifty years =/= Preparing for another war within the next several months to a few years.

The Medes or their advisors should have pointed out that the Legions were in bad shape and that they needed improvement.

They probably did. But, you didn't simply snap your fingers and you have brand new Legions.

Everything you're saying is an excuse for a dynasty that has had little to no success running the Empire. I would not put money on them for a second Great War.

Then you have absolutely no idea about the Medes. The Empire was prosperous. Mede Dynasty had the aftermath of Oblivion Crisis and the aftermath of the Stormcrown Interregnum which nearly tore the Empire apart, the problems left behind by a really bad Emperor named Thules the Gibbering and another rebellion. Then it gets better with thousands of undead besieging the Imperial City, overrunning Cyrodiil. Thalmor espionage in nearly everything and a floating city of doom. Later on a Great War which nearly wiped out the Empire...

Yet still the Empire stands. I would put my money on the Empire, than I would a rebellion who only stand a chance if the next Great War doesn't break out soon.


Well how do you explain zero mention of Talos? The Blades, who play a crucial role in that game, make no mention of him and Talos is their patron deity as shown in Oblivion.

Talos was worshipped, but only by his Cult and the Blades. Then the Warp in the West, which did pl*** to space and time. Thus Talos' glory was spread to everywhere. Not the first time a deity has used a Dragonbreak establish their religion.

The patron of the Legion now is Stendarr, how often do you see Legionaries mention him?


And there is evidence that the WGC was uneeded. How is that despite all the losses the Aldmeri took they still agreed to the same terms from the ultimatum? Is Titus an awful negotiator or is it just me?

There is also evidence that the WGC was needed. The Empire needed the peace, they lost over half up to two thirds of their Military. With a main Aldmeri army in Hammerfell, and secondary forces still within Cyrodiil.

The Thalmor could have just kept the Empire at war for the next hundred years with small border skirmishes. Kind of like what they did during the Second Era I believe. Cyrodiil was also in ruins, they got really hit hard.

And Arkay's rites (I doubt that before the WGC they said "blessings of the eight) are interchangeable for the eight or nine.

Arkay's Rites have said Eight, for a whole lot longer than they've said Nine.

I'm not even talking about whether it's wrong or not to oppress Talos worship, to give last rites that essentially told those men and women awaiting their executions that their God is not real, was cruel.

If you once mentioned Divines in Skyrim, you used to get burned at a stake.

It is not cruel to say Eight Divines. It would be cruel if they used that moment to go on about Talos being a False God and that they're heretics and burned them alive in Nord religious fashion.

The Legion doesn't control the Priestess of Arkay, she said Eight Divines instead of Divines like you wanted. That is Cult business.

Lore in TES (or the way I understand it to be) is when a fact is confirmed by an official source of the elder scrolls (be it in game or a book or on an official website or statement) and no other source meeting the same criteria contradicts it. The ghost at H'roldan points toward the heresy, but there is not anything solid that confirms it. The story of Tiber Septim is something that is meant to be unknown.

Yes, and the great legendary Nord hero Talos Stormcrown born of Atmora. Who was also shorter than his Dunmer General... Wait what?

There was a small cult on Vvardenfell (a strange enough place to begin with) that wished to assassinate Uriel. I doubt that on the mainland there were a large amount of legionaires hoping to get a shot in on the Emporer.

Where do you think the Legions in Vvardenfall came from? The mainland. The Talos Cult is a group of worshippers of the great Tiber Septim, founder of the Third Empire. In order to join, new recruits swear an oath to give up their lives in attempting to put a strong man back on the throne of Tamriel. They have many followers in the Legions, conspiring to assassinate whoever the current emperor may be and replace him to prevent the Empire's decline.

Well you said it seems they were headed in that direction, we don't know when exactly the avalanches happened, or else how did the Dragonborn get into Skyrim?

The Dragonborn was caught with the Stormcloaks, still gives the Thalmor two days. We're not told what border we came into Skyrim from. Could have been the small pass in the Rift which leads into Cyrodiil. Pale Pass is what most armies use or large groups of soldiers.

That's an interesting point about the Thalmor causing the avalanches, I'm curious to know just how powerful their magic is. They lied about ending the Oblivion Crisis, and possibly lied about ending the Void Nights as well. Everyone's also always talking about how they want to cast down all the Towers and undo time, but are they powerful enough for that?

The Thalmor do have powerful Mages, that is how you're often recruited by them. Blocking Pale Pass could be done with something as simple as fireballs.

While the Thalmor do lie about many things, and use deception. They still have power, and they're a great threat. Arrogance is their weakness and they often underestimate mankind. A weakened unprepared Empire managed to get the upperhand on them.

The Thalmor weren't even committed to conquering Cyrodiil, it was just to pin down the Legions while they took over Southern Hammerfell. That's how bad it was. The Dominion basically took the Imperial City by accident. Side note: according to book "The Great War" when the Aldmeri were already at the walls of the Imperial City, it was Legions from Skyrim that helped to hold the city for as long as they did. A lot of those Legionaires are Stormcloaks now. Just sayin'.

Whose fault is that they didn't believe the Thalmor were a threat? As far as I can tell Morrowind was not a part of the Empire during the Red Year, so that was not a distraction. You also had a large amount of Altmer refugees waving their arms in the air and even Ocato was worried about them. When he was assassinated (imperials have figured it was Thalmor who assassinated him) , and the Medes took over, that should have been a priority. And evidently the Penitus Oculatus efforts were a complete failure.

Well what else should the Legion have been doing during that time? That's like saying the United States should have ignored the Soviets after a few decades because nothing was happening. Or like South Korea should just walk away from the border because nothing's happening. You have to be ready.

Thules the Gibbering was probably equivalent to an ESO Emporer, if Mede hadn't overthrown him someone else probably would've. Umbriel was over a century before the Great War so that's not a valid reason for why they weren't ready. It sounds like the Medes have been in an eternal rebuild for 200 years.

I don't think it was the Warp in the West that caused Talos to become a popular deity.

And evidently the main army in Hammerfell was held off.

And that was thousands of years ago, and probably stemmed from the insane Alessian Reform. What the Imperials did at Helgen was a nice and subtle way to put down the Stormcloak's religion.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
1. The Thalmor were just as exhausted from the war as the Empire and did not have the resources to go haul off farmers in Skyrim as soon as the Concordat was signed, they were working towards that. Ulfric or not, things probably wouldn't be that different by the events of Skyrim, probably worse because the Eastern Holds wouldn't be protected and the roads would be in better shape.

The Thalmor only have increased presence due to the rebellion. Prior to the Stormcloaks going on about it, it took seven days of someone going on about Talos in public for them to get "kidnapped". A lot of the issues with the Thalmor are recent, and the reasons they're doing it is to send supporters to Ulfric's banner.

Skyrim wouldn't be worse without Ulfric's actions.

The Thalmor would still be limited, the Empire would still be ignoring all the secret worship that had been going on for twenty five years.

Bandits would not be raiding villages and farms, slaughtering many people with their out of control growth since the rebellion.

Alduin wouldn't be trying to enslave the world, and Dragons attacking everything all over Skyrim.

The Empire would be preparing for the Second Great War without any distractions. Being completely focused on the Aldmeri Dominion.

Skyrim would be prospering with trade, and huge numbers of civilians wouldn't be starving.

Besides all of that... It would be worse, cause the Empire keeps the roads in good shape.

You have completely misunderstood what I meant. It took that long to arrest someone because back then the Thalmor were just beginning their Skyrim mission, they were still wrapping up the Great War in Cyrodiil, fortifying their borders and recovering themselves. The Justiciars would have it 10x easier without the rebellion. They'd be free to move throughout the Eastern Holds, and it be easier to move throughout the province.

Bandits would benefit from all that trade.

We can't be sure if Alduin would have returned or not, it's possible the other end of the time wound was already set to be 4E 201.

Still have zero faith the Medes would win, especially without Hammerfell and presumably a large amount of bitter Nords.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Well... about #1. Their deployed forces were exhausted. Two armies were essentially routed. Lady what's her name escaped from Hammerfell with some of her army however the effort in Cyrodil just completely fell apart because Lord Naarafin got greedy and abandoned his objectives. It was like Germany taking on Russia... just no way to win because there's so much to take. However, unlike that scenario, in this case the Imperials didn't have the forces to take advantage of the resulting chaos in Dominion's failed offense... neither did Hammerfell because everyone was caught off guard in the beginning.

Now, consider the fact that most of the Dominion infrastructure survived the war, whereas Hammerfell and Cyrodil took a direct hit. So, the Dominion could have continued the war however it would have taken time to get boots deployed again however, by this time both Cyrodil and Hammerfell had the high ground and the Dominion after losing so much ground decided to stop and rethink they life. :)

As for Ulfric, he had the option to just rule the Eastern Holds and Empire wouldn't have cared otherwise. Not for a long time at least. It's when he killed the High King the Empire became interested in him. However, I get the feeling that even if Ulfric hadn't rose up someone else would've. And rightly so. Still, killing the Empire is wrong, for Talos sake that should have been the last choice on the list not the first. :/


#2 Is an interesting point. Here's my take on it. Talos doesn't care. All these plp who worship him, he's not that kind of deity, if he's a deity at all. His plp are the shouters. The ones who know how to use the Thu'um and *Follows the Way of the Voice*. That's his flock. So if you can't shout or do not have a heart after these values, then he's not your God.

And that is an issue because in the past Imperials worshiped him for what he did for the Empire, yet he doesn't care about the Empire. So the Imperials finally have 'woken up' and realize this. Talos also fought against all the Nords who resisted him, one story I remember is how Dawnstar Nords fiercely resisted Tiber Septim.

So in summation, Talos is really not the Imperials God or the Nords God. He stands for something different altogether that coincidentally helped the Imperials and Nords, yet he didn't do it for them. Or perhaps he did, yet Nords and Empire are not what he represents.

Therefore, as an Imperial or a Nord, you could get away with supporting a ban on Talos worship. One more thing too... Titus Mede II set the standard on Talos worship by banning it officially yet wearing his Talos amulet out of sight. I think that's why the dev left it like that, so if this was the Empire's actual intentions to ban Talos worship officially yet allow it in private, I can still support the Empire on this because technically there's nothing wrong with that.

They're protecting the Imperial Gov by not honoring a God who doesn't care about the Empire yet his plp can still worship him if they choose to do so privately. Makes sense to me. ;)

What I meant was the Dominion wasn't in any shape to enforce the ban on Talos right off the bat. They had wounds to heal, they had to tie down their borders in Valenwood and Elsweyr. Justiciars did not exist, or at least not with the purpose of rooting out Talos worshippers. They had no base of operations in Skyrim either.

The quest is called Liberation of Skyrim for a reason, the Stormcloaks are fighting for their countrymen, and they have no chance of forming an army or a new alliance with High Rock or Hammerfell to combat the Dominion if it's just the Old Holds. Also, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are not enemies. Ulfric refuses to begin the siege of Solitude if the Emporer is visiting. The Stormcloaks don't wish to overthrow the whole Empire, they just believe that the Empire has forfeited their right to rule Skyrim after the Concordat.

I have to disagree with you here, I think that Kyne/Kynareth is the patron of those who can shout. If not her, then Akatosh. Also Talos went right against the Way of the Voice, in that he used it in combat which the Way of the Voice forbids. Talos is "The Hero-God of Mankind". I'm not sure why you think Talos doesn't care if he's worshipped or not, no one can really know the mind of a god. Also there's a theory in TES that worship has a direct effect on deities and their amount of power. I don't think that the Imperials just said "you know what, these elves (who just razed our homeland to the ground) are right, boy we were stupid!".


Right, the enforcing of the WGC was at first left to the Empire, whom didn't enforce it outside of the Gov.

Didn't say anything about the Civil War or quest itself, honestly though whatever reason people have for supporting Ulfric, seeing how his is a charismatic cause, I'm more concerned about his reason(s). Remember, you are not allowed to question Ulfric or Galmar, per Ulfric.

Tiber Setptim did alot of pl*ps. However, his blessing is what... 'fort shout'. And if he's deity, then he blesses those who follow in his footsteps.

As far as the mind of God, there's a tome on Boethiah, which I forget the name, (I'm terrible with names) where she is summoned by her worshippers. Perhaps you've read it before?

And about the Imperials, wouldn't you feel stupid? Personally as someone whose been to hell and back, I would rather feel stupid and be alive than the alternative.

Your 'Talos' left the Empire to be raped and pillaged. You mentioned 'Wulfhearth' I think?

Talos doesn't care anymore, save for those who follow him. So why should everyone else make over a God, nay DIE for a God, who will not die for them? Or can even relate to them?

The Dominion never expected the Legion to enforce the WGC, they just had to get themselves back in shape before they could enforce it themselves.

I mentioned the name of the quest because you said Ulfric could've just stuck with the Old Holds and called it a day. They want to make all of Skyrim strong and free, united.

The Greybeards say they serve Kynareth, it was Kynareth who gave mortals the ability to use the voice. She is the Goddess of the Thu'um if there ever was one. Talos' blessing is probably Talos recognizing what would be useful to you as a fellow Dragonborn. The Blessing of Talos in Oblivion is way different.

That book on Boethiah comes from an actual, direct meeting with her. The only meeting with a manifestation of Talos was the Nerevarine and Wulf in Morrowind who basically told him that the Empire needed to be replaced.

That was sarcasm, I doubt any Imperials were just thrilled that Talos was outlawed, but he is less important to Imperials than Nords, or maybe religon is just less important to Imperials in general.

What do you mean he left the Empire to be pillaged? As a god? TES gods cannot affect the mortal plane so directly, the occasional manifestation, blessing or bit of luck is about the most they can do, much less win an entire war.
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
What I meant was the Dominion wasn't in any shape to enforce the ban on Talos right off the bat. They had wounds to heal, they had to tie down their borders in Valenwood and Elsweyr. Justiciars did not exist, or at least not with the purpose of rooting out Talos worshippers. They had no base of operations in Skyrim either.

The quest is called Liberation of Skyrim for a reason, the Stormcloaks are fighting for their countrymen, and they have no chance of forming an army or a new alliance with High Rock or Hammerfell to combat the Dominion if it's just the Old Holds. Also, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are not enemies. Ulfric refuses to begin the siege of Solitude if the Emporer is visiting. The Stormcloaks don't wish to overthrow the whole Empire, they just believe that the Empire has forfeited their right to rule Skyrim after the Concordat.

I have to disagree with you here, I think that Kyne/Kynareth is the patron of those who can shout. If not her, then Akatosh. Also Talos went right against the Way of the Voice, in that he used it in combat which the Way of the Voice forbids. Talos is "The Hero-God of Mankind". I'm not sure why you think Talos doesn't care if he's worshipped or not, no one can really know the mind of a god. Also there's a theory in TES that worship has a direct effect on deities and their amount of power. I don't think that the Imperials just said "you know what, these elves (who just razed our homeland to the ground) are right, boy we were stupid!".


Right, the enforcing of the WGC was at first left to the Empire, whom didn't enforce it outside of the Gov.

Didn't say anything about the Civil War or quest itself, honestly though whatever reason people have for supporting Ulfric, seeing how his is a charismatic cause, I'm more concerned about his reason(s). Remember, you are not allowed to question Ulfric or Galmar, per Ulfric.

Tiber Setptim did alot of pl*ps. However, his blessing is what... 'fort shout'. And if he's deity, then he blesses those who follow in his footsteps.

As far as the mind of God, there's a tome on Boethiah, which I forget the name, (I'm terrible with names) where she is summoned by her worshippers. Perhaps you've read it before?

And about the Imperials, wouldn't you feel stupid? Personally as someone whose been to hell and back, I would rather feel stupid and be alive than the alternative.

Your 'Talos' left the Empire to be raped and pillaged. You mentioned 'Wulfhearth' I think?

Talos doesn't care anymore, save for those who follow him. So why should everyone else make over a God, nay DIE for a God, who will not die for them? Or can even relate to them?

The Dominion never expected the Legion to enforce the WGC, they just had to get themselves back in shape before they could enforce it themselves.

I mentioned the name of the quest because you said Ulfric could've just stuck with the Old Holds and called it a day. They want to make all of Skyrim strong and free, united.

The Greybeards say they serve Kynareth, it was Kynareth who gave mortals the ability to use the voice. She is the Goddess of the Thu'um if there ever was one. Talos' blessing is probably Talos recognizing what would be useful to you as a fellow Dragonborn. The Blessing of Talos in Oblivion is way different.

That book on Boethiah comes from an actual, direct meeting with her. The only meeting with a manifestation of Talos was the Nerevarine and Wulf in Morrowind who basically told him that the Empire needed to be replaced.

That was sarcasm, I doubt any Imperials were just thrilled that Talos was outlawed, but he is less important to Imperials than Nords, or maybe religon is just less important to Imperials in general.

What do you mean he left the Empire to be pillaged? As a god? TES gods cannot affect the mortal plane so directly, the occasional manifestation, blessing or bit of luck is about the most they can do, much less win an entire war.


Oh really hahaha.

Well you do actually, have some good points here. I won't deny you that. And one thing - that you can't deny - is separation of church and state is foundation for rational Gov and that regardless of anyone's opinion, by not enforcing the WGC and the Emperor intending the WGC to only be implied and expressed in an official capacity makes the Imperial Gov Rational as well. Banning one God is no different, they could have banned them all and still result is the same because - as you said - the Dominion knew it was going to have to get it's hands dirty to enforce the WGC because the Imperial Gov was too rational.

Seeing how the Thalmor send their people from the Embassy's means this is a Diplomatic issue and as soon as the Empire gets the chance, the Thalmor can be removed from their borders thru Diplomacy. And well, let's face it, if you have another war planned there's no sense chasing Talos worshipers around when their very purposes for being there, - the Civil War - is mostly over and your point man dead.

Question though. You seem like a thoughtful person. Just one question.

How do you rationalize Ulfric as a Freedom Fighter after he's taken / taking / will take Freedom away from so many others? ie Reachmen, Whiterun, Argonians, Dark Elves, Imperial Nords etc... Ulric has had a strong hand in the oppression towards each of these groups, how do you figure he's fighting for everyone's Freedom? Make me a believer. Talos is listening. :)
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Right, the enforcing of the WGC was at first left to the Empire, whom didn't enforce it outside of the Gov.

Didn't say anything about the Civil War or quest itself, honestly though whatever reason people have for supporting Ulfric, seeing how his is a charismatic cause, I'm more concerned about his reason(s). Remember, you are not allowed to question Ulfric or Galmar, per Ulfric.

Tiber Setptim did alot of pl*ps. However, his blessing is what... 'fort shout'. And if he's deity, then he blesses those who follow in his footsteps.

As far as the mind of God, there's a tome on Boethiah, which I forget the name, (I'm terrible with names) where she is summoned by her worshippers. Perhaps you've read it before?

And about the Imperials, wouldn't you feel stupid? Personally as someone whose been to hell and back, I would rather feel stupid and be alive than the alternative.

Your 'Talos' left the Empire to be raped and pillaged. You mentioned 'Wulfhearth' I think?

Talos doesn't care anymore, save for those who follow him. So why should everyone else make over a God, nay DIE for a God, who will not die for them? Or can even relate to them?

The Dominion never expected the Legion to enforce the WGC, they just had to get themselves back in shape before they could enforce it themselves.

I mentioned the name of the quest because you said Ulfric could've just stuck with the Old Holds and called it a day. They want to make all of Skyrim strong and free, united.

The Greybeards say they serve Kynareth, it was Kynareth who gave mortals the ability to use the voice. She is the Goddess of the Thu'um if there ever was one. Talos' blessing is probably Talos recognizing what would be useful to you as a fellow Dragonborn. The Blessing of Talos in Oblivion is way different.

That book on Boethiah comes from an actual, direct meeting with her. The only meeting with a manifestation of Talos was the Nerevarine and Wulf in Morrowind who basically told him that the Empire needed to be replaced.

That was sarcasm, I doubt any Imperials were just thrilled that Talos was outlawed, but he is less important to Imperials than Nords, or maybe religon is just less important to Imperials in general.

What do you mean he left the Empire to be pillaged? As a god? TES gods cannot affect the mortal plane so directly, the occasional manifestation, blessing or bit of luck is about the most they can do, much less win an entire war.


Oh really hahaha.

Well you do actually, have some good points here. I won't deny you that. And one thing - that you can't deny - is separation of church and state is foundation for rational Gov and that regardless of anyone's opinion, by not enforcing the WGC and the Emperor intending the WGC to only be implied and expressed in an official capacity makes the Imperial Gov Rational as well. Banning one God is no different, they could have banned them all and still result is the same because - as you said - the Dominion knew it was going to have to get it's hands dirty to enforce the WGC because the Imperial Gov was too rational.

Seeing how the Thalmor send their people from the Embassy's means this is a Diplomatic issue and as soon as the Empire gets the chance, the Thalmor can be removed from their borders thru Diplomacy. And well, let's face it, if you have another war planned there's no sense chasing Talos worshipers around when their very purposes for being there, - the Civil War - is mostly over and your point man dead.

Question though. You seem like a thoughtful person. Just one question.

How do you rationalize Ulfric as a Freedom Fighter after he's taken / taking / will take Freedom away from so many others? ie Reachmen, Whiterun, Argonians, Dark Elves, Imperial Nords etc... Ulric has had a strong hand in the oppression towards each of these groups, how do you figure he's fighting for everyone's Freedom? Make me a believer. Talos is listening. :)

Alright, that's a good question. Well, being honest, I don't fully support Ulfric, there are things I would change about him. For instance I do not agree at all with the way he handled Torygg. Especially when (I believe it was) Sybille Stentor said that Torygg already respected Ulfric enough to give the matter of independence some thought. A peaceful Stormcloak Revoultion had me practically drooling. Maybe the Empire wouldn't have accepted that but still. Like you said earlier, if Ulfric hadn't lead the charge, someone else would've.

On to your question though. Is Ulfric's xenophobia justified? Considering all his comrades he saw die at the hands of elves, returning home and having them deny him Talos, his city being filled with resource-consuming refugees who decline to fight for his cause? I don't know. I'll say in his defense it's more of a Nord thing than an Ulfric thing. Dunmer/Nord tensions especially have raged for centuries. At a time when outsiders are dragging people off in the night, and an alien-looking, Daedra-worshipping, all around grim people your ancestors have warred with for generations show up at your doorstep, how would you feel? Argonians and Dunmer have had recent troubles, which could explain his decision to separate them, to prevent violence. Even if it is a racial thing, Beastfolk aren't treated particularly well all across Tamriel. As for Reachmen, well I think most of us have rejected the majority of The Bear of Markarth. It was an Imperial Jarl who presided over most of the current Forsworn stituation, but I suppose the Silver-Bloods aren't going to make things much better. I don't think much can be done to appease the Forsworn at this point, sadly. He regretfully lays siege to Whiterun, it's Balgruuf who returns the axe. "If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better,". And that's him talking to his most devoted friend and general so no need for charismatic stuff. I wouldn't say that Stormcloak Whiterun is overly oppressed. The shopkeepers you can ask about say the guards don't buy as much from them, but Ulfric doesn't have a ton to do with that. The Battle-borns are way over-reacting, but I can understand their bitterness. I can't help but think of the Altmer and Imperials living comfortably in Windhelm and wonder if the Dunmer could be doing something differently.

Ulfric fights for the right of the Nords to rule their homeland as they see fit, just as Imperials rule Cyrodiil, Dunmer rule Morrowind, Argonians rule Black Marsh etc, etc...

Is Ulfric racist? Probably so, yes. Is the treatment of other races his doing alone? I'd say no. Are his actions justifiable? That's a matter of opinion. Understandable at least? I think so. Is it bad enough where he's worse than other people of considerable power on Tamriel and he's downright evil? I'd say no.

At the end of the day, racial tension seems like it will forever be a part of Tamriel. The Dunmer's enslavement of Beastfolk, the multiple sackings of Orsinium, Men vs. Mer in general. The Stormcloaks aren't the first, or the worst, but they seem to take the most hatred for it.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Thalmor weren't even committed to conquering Cyrodiil, it was just to pin down the Legions while they took over Southern Hammerfell. That's how bad it was. The Dominion basically took the Imperial City by accident.

At first they weren't. It wasn't until the first two cities were besieged. The Dominion didn't take the Imperial City by accident, it became their primary objective.

The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years.

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself.

Side note: according to book "The Great War" when the Aldmeri were already at the walls of the Imperial City, it was Legions from Skyrim that helped to hold the city for as long as they did. A lot of those Legionaires are Stormcloaks now. Just sayin'.

So? Legions from Skyrim are no different than Legions from High Rock or Cyrodiil. They reinforced the Emperor, who was fighting an entire main army + secondary forces. Stormcloaks get reinforcements from Dawnstar, does that mean anything?

How do you know those Legionaries are mostly Stormcloaks? Only Ulfric, Galmar and two Stormcloak jarls are mentioned as Legion veterans of the Great War. For all you know the Legionaries that joined the Stormcloaks were Post-Great War. Those in their twenties and early thirties.

Whose fault is that they didn't believe the Thalmor were a threat?

Whoever was around right after the Oblivion Crisis.

Because the person warning everyone was half mad. Blamed the Thalmor for everything, from Red Mountain to the Argonians.

As far as I can tell Morrowind was not a part of the Empire during the Red Year, so that was not a distraction.

Yes it was. Morrowind was still part of the Empire, wasn't until the Stormcrown Interregnum that they lost their grasp on Summerset Isle and Morrowind. Red Year had reaching effects, cutting off entire Legions.

You also had a large amount of Altmer refugees waving their arms in the air and even Ocato was worried about them. When he was assassinated (imperials have figured it was Thalmor who assassinated him), and the Medes took over, that should have been a priority.

No you didn't. Majority of the Altmer were praising the Thalmor, completely bought into their propaganda. You had one refugee who escaped assassination. No one knew who had assassinated Ocato until a long time after. When Titus Mede took over, his priority was to get the Empire stable. He was very good at that too, Skyrim itself endorsed him as their Emperor. The Thalmor did become a concern, hence why Mede very cautious about them. Tasked his agents to deal with the threats.

And evidently the Penitus Oculatus efforts were a complete failure.

plops happens. They did their best, and not all of their efforts were a failure. They managed to uncover plots, plant spies inside Thalmor nests, plug leaks or keep them in place to feed false information. Assassinate Thalmor agents.

What do the Stormcloaks have? Nothing. Say what you will about the Penitus Oculatus, but at least the Empire has something to combat espionage. Even Ulfric says the Imperials have spies everywhere.

Not only don't you have a trained army, you can't reach the Dominion and you can't even deal with Thalmor espionage in the slighest. Ulfric fears the Thalmor will give greater attention to his shores, he should, cause he has absolutely nothing to stop it.

Well what else should the Legion have been doing during that time? That's like saying the United States should have ignored the Soviets after a few decades because nothing was happening. Or like South Korea should just walk away from the border because nothing's happening. You have to be ready.

Not keep their entire army there for a hundred and fifty years. The Empire had border defenses, which were overrun by two massive armies. The United States and South Korea can warn their forces and call for reinforcements within thirty seconds with a phone. It takes days to warn the capital riding fast, and it takes weeks to rouse your entire Military. Legion Commanders aren't Jedi, they don't feel a disturbance in the force and know there is a problem.

Thules the Gibbering was probably equivalent to an ESO Emporer, if Mede hadn't overthrown him someone else probably would've. Umbriel was over a century before the Great War so that's not a valid reason for why they weren't ready. It sounds like the Medes have been in an eternal rebuild for 200 years.

No. He had Council backing. Mede was a very skilled commander, and also at politics. He was also loved by his soldiers. It is valid, hundred years would not restore hundreds of thousands of population losses in a medieval realm. Throw in the losses from the Oblivion Crisis and the Stormcrown Interregnum.

The Emperor doesn't control everything, the Elder Council controls most in Imperial politics. You can't force people to make babies.

And the Thalmor were untouched during Umbriel. So while the Empire had to rebuild for the second time in forty years, cities and villages, and wait while your population grows again. Then you have to replace several Legions.

You want to talk about valid reasons? Demonic invasion, massive civil war with countless factions and then a god damn zombie invasion. I think that ticks all boxes for "How the fluff are they still standing?"

I don't think it was the Warp in the West that caused Talos to become a popular deity.

It is the only event that would explain it.

And evidently the main army in Hammerfell was held off.

After the thrashing they got by the Legion. And after they devastated southern Hammerfell. Holding off the Dominion isn't victory, it is a delay. It doesn't matter how many armies you push back. Only way to defeat the Thalmor is to cut off their head in Summerset Isle and even then, they will endure for a long time.

And that was thousands of years ago, and probably stemmed from the insane Alessian Reform. What the Imperials did at Helgen was a nice and subtle way to put down the Stormcloak's religion.

What the Cult did. That Priestess gave rites which are written by the Order of Arkay. The Legion didn't tell her to say Eight Divines, you say she should have said "Divines", but since she doesn't you blame the Legion as cruel. She isn't even part of the Legion, just someone they probably got who ran a shrine in Helgan or was from Falkreath. Hell on about Priests of Arkay, the Altmer in Falkreath is an ex Thalmor Battlemage who killed untold numbers of Nord soldiers, women and children civilians in Cyrodiil.

When Priests of a religion do something you don't like. How is the Military to blame?

You have completely misunderstood what I meant. It took that long to arrest someone because back then the Thalmor were just beginning their Skyrim mission, they were still wrapping up the Great War in Cyrodiil, fortifying their borders and recovering themselves. The Justiciars would have it 10x easier without the rebellion. They'd be free to move throughout the Eastern Holds, and it be easier to move throughout the province.

You're not understanding that the Thalmor only have an increased presence due to the Civil War. They're doing a large inquisition to send supporters towards Ulfric. The Dominion =/= Thalmor. They can multitask. They would not have it 10x easier, they benefit due to the lack of eyes on them cause of the war. They can't kick down your door without cause, and if Ulfric was the Jarl of Windhelm (Without his rebellion) he isn't going to rat in his subjects. They need evidence to make an arrest, and the Legion can release prisoners with cause.

They would have it hard moving about the whole province with their limited presence. The Empire is "enforcing" the ban, and while there are no large scale open violations they can't prove the Empire isn't upholding their deal.

Bandits would benefit from all that trade.

Not while they're in armed convoys, and not while the Legion and Hold Guards are focusing on them since they're not killing each other or holed up in war camps/behind city walls.

We can't be sure if Alduin would have returned or not, it's possible the other end of the time wound was already set to be 4E 201.

His return required Skyrim to be Kingless and the Nords fighting each other in Civil War. Torygg had no heir, and the Moot won't meet. Take away the Stormclaok rebellion, and even if Torygg died randomly the Moot would meet and elect a new ruler.

Still have zero faith the Medes would win, especially without Hammerfell and presumably a large amount of bitter Nords.

Redguards believe they can defeat the Aldmeri Dominion with the combined might of the Empire. As for bitter Nords... When aren't Nords bitter? I doubt they'd refuse to go kill some elves, it is what makes them happy.

I have zero faith in the Stormcloaks. It will take more than an army of a single race to defeat the Dominion. Their plan to take the entire army to the Dominion lacks any strategy, they lack any counter intelligence ability and they have to train new armies. Not to mention giving each Jarl their own army is stupid. Nords are famous for their conflicting nature, and a single ruler doesn't unite them for long. Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor once, and then he was captured not too long after Tullius arrived. His motives are questioned by his own political supporters, and he's willing to sacrifice many of his own people, though he likens their deaths to getting wheat. Food for thought, intended pun.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
A peaceful Stormcloak Revoultion had me practically drooling. Maybe the Empire wouldn't have accepted that but still.

No reason the Empire wouldn't accept it. They're fairly reasonable, especially if it means paper work and treaties. Trade agreements, open borders and allowing the Legion to recruit from the population. The Empire does agree with the Stormcloaks on issues, Tullius even almost considers joining them because the Thalmor try make the Empire look bad.

We have accepted far worse terms. :p
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
The Thalmor weren't even committed to conquering Cyrodiil, it was just to pin down the Legions while they took over Southern Hammerfell. That's how bad it was. The Dominion basically took the Imperial City by accident.

At first they weren't. It wasn't until the first two cities were besieged. The Dominion didn't take the Imperial City by accident, it became their primary objective.

The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years.

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself.

Side note: according to book "The Great War" when the Aldmeri were already at the walls of the Imperial City, it was Legions from Skyrim that helped to hold the city for as long as they did. A lot of those Legionaires are Stormcloaks now. Just sayin'.

So? Legions from Skyrim are no different than Legions from High Rock or Cyrodiil. They reinforced the Emperor, who was fighting an entire main army + secondary forces. Stormcloaks get reinforcements from Dawnstar, does that mean anything?

How do you know those Legionaries are mostly Stormcloaks? Only Ulfric, Galmar and two Stormcloak jarls are mentioned as Legion veterans of the Great War. For all you know the Legionaries that joined the Stormcloaks were Post-Great War. Those in their twenties and early thirties.

Whose fault is that they didn't believe the Thalmor were a threat?

Whoever was around right after the Oblivion Crisis.

Because the person warning everyone was half mad. Blamed the Thalmor for everything, from Red Mountain to the Argonians.

As far as I can tell Morrowind was not a part of the Empire during the Red Year, so that was not a distraction.

Yes it was. Morrowind was still part of the Empire, wasn't until the Stormcrown Interregnum that they lost their grasp on Summerset Isle and Morrowind. Red Year had reaching effects, cutting off entire Legions.

You also had a large amount of Altmer refugees waving their arms in the air and even Ocato was worried about them. When he was assassinated (imperials have figured it was Thalmor who assassinated him), and the Medes took over, that should have been a priority.

No you didn't. Majority of the Altmer were praising the Thalmor, completely bought into their propaganda. You had one refugee who escaped assassination. No one knew who had assassinated Ocato until a long time after. When Titus Mede took over, his priority was to get the Empire stable. He was very good at that too, Skyrim itself endorsed him as their Emperor. The Thalmor did become a concern, hence why Mede very cautious about them. Tasked his agents to deal with the threats.

And evidently the Penitus Oculatus efforts were a complete failure.

pl*** happens. They did their best, and not all of their efforts were a failure. They managed to uncover plots, plant spies inside Thalmor nests, plug leaks or keep them in place to feed false information. Assassinate Thalmor agents.

What do the Stormcloaks have? Nothing. Say what you will about the Penitus Oculatus, but at least the Empire has something to combat espionage. Even Ulfric says the Imperials have spies everywhere.

Not only don't you have a trained army, you can't reach the Dominion and you can't even deal with Thalmor espionage in the slighest. Ulfric fears the Thalmor will give greater attention to his shores, he should, cause he has absolutely nothing to stop it.

Well what else should the Legion have been doing during that time? That's like saying the United States should have ignored the Soviets after a few decades because nothing was happening. Or like South Korea should just walk away from the border because nothing's happening. You have to be ready.

Not keep their entire army there for a hundred and fifty years. The Empire had border defenses, which were overrun by two massive armies. The United States and South Korea can warn their forces and call for reinforcements within thirty seconds with a phone. It takes days to warn the capital riding fast, and it takes weeks to rouse your entire Military. Legion Commanders aren't Jedi, they don't feel a disturbance in the force and know there is a problem.

Thules the Gibbering was probably equivalent to an ESO Emporer, if Mede hadn't overthrown him someone else probably would've. Umbriel was over a century before the Great War so that's not a valid reason for why they weren't ready. It sounds like the Medes have been in an eternal rebuild for 200 years.

No. He had Council backing. Mede was a very skilled commander, and also at politics. He was also loved by his soldiers. It is valid, hundred years would not restore hundreds of thousands of population losses in a medieval realm. Throw in the losses from the Oblivion Crisis and the Stormcrown Interregnum.

The Emperor doesn't control everything, the Elder Council controls most in Imperial politics. You can't force people to make babies.

And the Thalmor were untouched during Umbriel. So while the Empire had to rebuild for the second time in forty years, cities and villages, and wait while your population grows again. Then you have to replace several Legions.

You want to talk about valid reasons? Demonic invasion, massive civil war with countless factions and then a god damn zombie invasion. I think that ticks all boxes for "How the fluff are they still standing?"

I don't think it was the Warp in the West that caused Talos to become a popular deity.

It is the only event that would explain it.

And evidently the main army in Hammerfell was held off.

After the thrashing they got by the Legion. And after they devastated southern Hammerfell. Holding off the Dominion isn't victory, it is a delay. It doesn't matter how many armies you push back. Only way to defeat the Thalmor is to cut off their head in Summerset Isle and even then, they will endure for a long time.

And that was thousands of years ago, and probably stemmed from the insane Alessian Reform. What the Imperials did at Helgen was a nice and subtle way to put down the Stormcloak's religion.

What the Cult did. That Priestess gave rites which are written by the Order of Arkay. The Legion didn't tell her to say Eight Divines, you say she should have said "Divines", but since she doesn't you blame the Legion as cruel. She isn't even part of the Legion, just someone they probably got who ran a shrine in Helgan or was from Falkreath. Hell on about Priests of Arkay, the Altmer in Falkreath is an ex Thalmor Battlemage who killed untold numbers of Nord soldiers, women and children civilians in Cyrodiil.

When Priests of a religion do something you don't like. How is the Military to blame?

You have completely misunderstood what I meant. It took that long to arrest someone because back then the Thalmor were just beginning their Skyrim mission, they were still wrapping up the Great War in Cyrodiil, fortifying their borders and recovering themselves. The Justiciars would have it 10x easier without the rebellion. They'd be free to move throughout the Eastern Holds, and it be easier to move throughout the province.

You're not understanding that the Thalmor only have an increased presence due to the Civil War. They're doing a large inquisition to send supporters towards Ulfric. The Dominion =/= Thalmor. They can multitask. They would not have it 10x easier, they benefit due to the lack of eyes on them cause of the war. They can't kick down your door without cause, and if Ulfric was the Jarl of Windhelm (Without his rebellion) he isn't going to rat in his subjects. They need evidence to make an arrest, and the Legion can release prisoners with cause.

They would have it hard moving about the whole province with their limited presence. The Empire is "enforcing" the ban, and while there are no large scale open violations they can't prove the Empire isn't upholding their deal.

Bandits would benefit from all that trade.

Not while they're in armed convoys, and not while the Legion and Hold Guards are focusing on them since they're not killing each other or holed up in war camps/behind city walls.

We can't be sure if Alduin would have returned or not, it's possible the other end of the time wound was already set to be 4E 201.

His return required Skyrim to be Kingless and the Nords fighting each other in Civil War. Torygg had no heir, and the Moot won't meet. Take away the Stormclaok rebellion, and even if Torygg died randomly the Moot would meet and elect a new ruler.

Still have zero faith the Medes would win, especially without Hammerfell and presumably a large amount of bitter Nords.

Redguards believe they can defeat the Aldmeri Dominion with the combined might of the Empire. As for bitter Nords... When aren't Nords bitter? I doubt they'd refuse to go kill some elves, it is what makes them happy.

I have zero faith in the Stormcloaks. It will take more than an army of a single race to defeat the Dominion. Their plan to take the entire army to the Dominion lacks any strategy, they lack any counter intelligence ability and they have to train new armies. Not to mention giving each Jarl their own army is stupid. Nords are famous for their conflicting nature, and a single ruler doesn't unite them for long. Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor once, and then he was captured not too long after Tullius arrived. His motives are questioned by his own political supporters, and he's willing to sacrifice many of his own people, though he likens their deaths to getting wheat. Food for thought, intended pun.

Yes, it became their objective later after advancing way further than they ever meant to. If the Dominion had their sights on the Imperial City from the get-go, would the Empire exist today?

During the Jagged Crown, Galmar says that he understands many Stormcloaks are ex-legion, and Rikke warns her soldiers of that too. I think most of them would be GW veterans, why would a young Stormcloak join the legion with Justiciars wandering around and Talos outlawed, and then decide, "actually I think I'll change sides now".

He couldn't have been the only Summerset refugee, what about the Night of Green Fire? They must have been on the mainland for sometime? And even if the Thalmor got every-single one of them, isn't that a pretty big sign that something's up? The Altmer who were praising the Thalmor were not in Cyrodiil, I'd imagine.

The Stormcloaks aren't completely without espionage, see the quests, False Front and Compelling Tribute. The Stormcloaks are training an army, you won't see them complete it in Skyrim, just as you could play it for 50 in game years and there'd still be no moot or 2nd Great War. The Nords are a militaristic people with resources and skill to build a powerful army and navy. And High Rock has been severed from the Empire, and Skyrim was looking to make an alliance with them previously, and I'm not sure how anyone can say the Redguards don't make natural allies.

And after Umbriel was over, what should the majority of the legion have been doing? Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil were "peaceful and prosperous", Morrowind wasn't an Imperial Province any longer, and I've heard no where that they were trying to keep the peace in Hammerfell. There was no where else to be.

The Stormcrown Interregnum was a political thing, not a violent one for the most part. The Altmer suffered just as bad, if not worse than Cyrodiil from the Oblivion Crisis, and they reproduce at a painfully slower rate.

The Medes had nothing to do with surviving the OC or the interregnum. The Umbriel Crisis seems downplayed by Skyrim, and Cyrodiil did not suffer much from it. Cheydinhal was the only city defeated and most were evacuated and later returned.

The Thalmor are kidnapping people in the night, they aren't worried about gathering evidence first. The Concordat gave them free reign to stamp out Talos worship so they're allowed to do almost whatever they want, the Legion can't tell them to go home because they're enforcing the ban.

The prophecy can be interpreted many ways.
Kingless- Torygg being a puppet ruler
Bleeding-The Thalmor given free reign to impose the Concordat, and Nordic traditions seeping away

I believe Skyrim became divided over its ruler twice, both long times ago. We don't have a lot of information on the War of Succession that lost them Morrowind and High Rock, but the other time was just a peaceful division in to East and West kingdoms. They haven't been divided anymore than other provinces have.

Tell me why a Skyrim-High Rock-Hammerfell Alliance doesn't make sense.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
A peaceful Stormcloak Revoultion had me practically drooling. Maybe the Empire wouldn't have accepted that but still.

No reason the Empire wouldn't accept it. They're fairly reasonable, especially if it means paper work and treaties. Trade agreements, open borders and allowing the Legion to recruit from the population. The Empire does agree with the Stormcloaks on issues, Tullius even almost considers joining them because the Thalmor try make the Empire look bad.

We have accepted far worse terms. :p

Yes but they'd be losing one of their last provinces, a resource rich one at that. Also, if that's the case, why bother resisting the rebellion? It's possible I suppose but I wouldn't bet on it.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yes, it became their objective later after advancing way further than they ever meant to. If the Dominion had their sights on the Imperial City from the get-go, would the Empire exist today?

It became the objective fairly early on, after their initial success in Cyrodiil. They had overestimated Imperial strength, or so they thought. Yes the Empire would exist, because Titus II would surprise them by ditching the Imperial City to regroup. Then they would be hit by all the Legions and the two armies from Hammerfell. Empire might even be able to reclaim parts of Valenwood/Elsweyr with their extra forces.

During the Jagged Crown, Galmar says that he understands many Stormcloaks are ex-legion, and Rikke warns her soldiers of that too. I think most of them would be GW veterans, why would a young Stormcloak join the legion with Justiciars wandering around and Talos outlawed, and then decide, "actually I think I'll change sides now".

That they might know people on the other side. You're assuming they're Great War veterans, which isn't confirmed. Why can't people change sides? It isn't uncommon. Both Ulfric & Tullius make mention of Legionaries/Stormcloaks coming to their side with a change of heart.

Why would a young Stormcloak join the Legion, with Justiciars and Talos outlawed? Why would a *Young Nord join them. Because even if you disagree with the Empire on political points, the Legion is something of a tradition for many Nord families. Their fathers and father's father. Even a Stormcloak Jarl mentions he misses the Legion life.


He couldn't have been the only Summerset refugee, what about the Night of Green Fire? They must have been on the mainland for sometime? And even if the Thalmor got every-single one of them, isn't that a pretty big sign that something's up? The Altmer who were praising the Thalmor were not in Cyrodiil, I'd imagine.

Night of Green Fire happened well and truly after people understood the Thalmor threat. The refugees started fleeing when the Thalmor were assassinating/purging those who slightly disagreed with them. But, there are still huge untold numbers who support them. There were Thalmor sympathizers in Cyrodiil too.

The Stormcloaks aren't completely without espionage, see the quests, False Front and Compelling Tribute.

That isn't anything special. Nothing to be ashamed of, not having espionage ability. Nords aren't subtle, and don't like deception. Honorable race, but outclassed against a foe like the Thalmor.

The Stormcloaks are training an army, you won't see them complete it in Skyrim, just as you could play it for 50 in game years and there'd still be no moot or 2nd Great War. The Nords are a militaristic people with resources and skill to build a powerful army and navy. And High Rock has been severed from the Empire, and Skyrim was looking to make an alliance with them previously,

Which won't matter if the Great War breaks out soon after the death of Mede. High Rock would make a poor ally, they suffer from political instability. Not to mention Bretons, Nords and Redguards do not get along politically.

and I'm not sure how anyone can say the Redguards don't make natural allies.

The same people who point out, they've never once sided with each other and they fight against each other more times than not.

The only reason Stormcloaks mention Hammerfell is "They're independent and have a warrior culture". Being independent doesn't mean anything. Sharing a warrior culture doesn't mean natural allies either, makes better enemies than anything.

And after Umbriel was over, what should the majority of the legion have been doing? Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil were "peaceful and prosperous", Morrowind wasn't an Imperial Province any longer, and I've heard no where that they were trying to keep the peace in Hammerfell. There was no where else to be.

Doing what they always do. Patrolling roads, escorting trade shipments, training, establishing forts, handing out Imperial justice to criminals, fighting bandits, investigating crimes etc.

The Stormcrown Interregnum was a political thing, not a violent one for the most part.

Elder Council fracturing into petty infighting, huge numbers of claims for the throne, various uprisings, warlords popping up left and right. Described as "Seven Long Bloody Years". Yeah, not violent at all. Mostly civilized debate...

The Altmer suffered just as bad, if not worse than Cyrodiil from the Oblivion Crisis, and they reproduce at a painfully slower rate.

Cyrodiil took the worst of the Daedric invasion in Tamriel. There isn't a lot of evidence to support the theory they reproduce slower. While they have longer life spans, they mature at about the same rate as men and many do die by causes such as war, disease etc. at an age akin to when men die naturally. Tamriel doesn't often let people live full lives. Though the longer lifespans means Dominion troops can get better training for longer and veterans from the Great War will be part of their army in the next war. Mankind's Veterans from the Great War will start to fall out of active Military service, many already are.

The Medes had nothing to do with surviving the OC or the interregnum. The Umbriel Crisis seems downplayed by Skyrim, and Cyrodiil did not suffer much from it. Cheydinhal was the only city defeated and most were evacuated and later returned.

Really? The Medes dealt with the aftermath. The problems from Oblivion Crisis wasn't healed when Ocato was assassinated, and his death spark a bloody seven year war. So how did they have "nothing" to do with surviving the aftermath of it?

Cyrodiil did suffer, undead had overrun half the province. Attacking the very walls of the Imperial city. Not everyone was able to evacuate.

The Thalmor are kidnapping people in the night, they aren't worried about gathering evidence first. The Concordat gave them free reign to stamp out Talos worship so they're allowed to do almost whatever they want, the Legion can't tell them to go home because they're enforcing the ban.

The Thalmor weren't doing that until much later, which was a result from the Stormcloaks open violation. They're not allowed to do almost whatever they want, they're just doing whatever they want during the Civil War. The Empire knows, but they don't know (No evidence of the Thalmor doing things illegal, only speculation).

The prophecy can be interpreted many ways.
Kingless- Torygg being a puppet ruler
Bleeding-The Thalmor given free reign to impose the Concordat, and Nordic traditions seeping away

It speaks of the rebellion, no point in trying to twist that. It is well established, and it was established during it's first announcement trailer.

I believe Skyrim became divided over its ruler twice, both long times ago. We don't have a lot of information on the War of Succession that lost them Morrowind and High Rock, but the other time was just a peaceful division in to East and West kingdoms. They haven't been divided anymore than other provinces have.

For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last.

Tell me why a Skyrim-High Rock-Hammerfell Alliance doesn't make sense.

Why doesn't a Nord/Altmer alliance make much sense?

High Rock is an unstable place, filled with political bickering. They don't share the Nord view on things, and Nords don't like fighting with them due to their complex strategies and deceptions.

Hammerfell has never gotten on with Nords, even when under the Empire. While Nords have a warrior cultural affection, Redguards have a warrior way of life. Just because both are warrior provinces, doesn't mean they will side with one another. Like Orcs in Skyrim, they share a warrior lifestyle. But are more often bitter enemies, probably the one race Nords get owned by. Many Jarls have gone down in history dying trying to remove the "pests" from their lands. Stormcloaks alos mention the Orc strongholds as an affront to their people, so the resentment is still there.

Skyrim would probably benefit from the alliance, they won't have to guard their borders from hundreds of years of resentment. But, what do High Rock and Hammerfell gain? Skyrim is the weakest province in Tamriel after the Civil War. A land ravaged by war and dragons, where most of the Holds are quite poor and trade has been weakened. I really wouldn't put it past High Rock/Hammerfell invading Skyrim and it would settle the Imperial vs Stormcloak debate.

Though what might hurt Skyrim for a time will be the loss of their free trade if Stormcloaks win. Though at least you can bitch alongside the Dunmer about the EETC bleeding you dry.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yes but they'd be losing one of their last provinces, a resource rich one at that. Also, if that's the case, why bother resisting the rebellion? It's possible I suppose but I wouldn't bet on it.

Hence trade agreements. Skyrim will still want the free trade they enjoy under the Empire. Why bother resisting a rebellion? Because there is a difference between peaceful removal, and open rebellion. They didn't want to get involved in the conflict anyway, the Stormcloaks were fighting other Holds in skirmishes for years before the Legion stepped in. Wasn't until Ulfric killed Torygg as a message to the other Jarls, that the Empire couldn't ignore it anymore.

"I was once, but not any more. I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you." - Solaf, about being a Stormcloak.

"That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days." - Alvor, about Ulfric killing Torygg.

"It's pretty simple. Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support, so a few months ago he murdered the High King! That got the Empire's attention." - Hadvar, on Ulfric and the Stormcloaks.

I don't see why you wouldn't bet on it, the Empire aren't evil. Look at the Armistice Treaty, that gave the Dunmer vast freedoms and damn near independence of Imperial law.

There is no argument against why the Empire would say no, other than "Just cause they are bad guys and evil tyrants". According to the Bear of Markarth the Reachmen were heading towards establishing an independent Kingdom, making moves to be recognised by the Empire. So if those "savages" can try it, I don't see why the Nord Jarls can't do a non-violent motion to the Imperial Council.
 
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Grom

The Orc
The imperials. They have been good to us Orcs, we have a debt to pay them and we always pay the bloodprice. Don't care much for the Nords or their cries of oppression. They are the last race in tamriel who can cry oppression, try being an Orc and know real oppression from the other races.

Bunch of genocidal immigrants who think skyrim should only be ruled by nords. We Orcs were there first and during your war with the falmer our races first met. Just attacked us randomly and tried to wipe out our race for no reason other than we were there. Us Orcs were happily minding our business until 500 crazy bearded dudes came at us and destroyed many of our settlements.
 

Grom

The Orc
There is no argument against why the Empire would say no, other than "Just cause they are bad guys and evil tyrants". According to the Bear of Markarth the Reachmen were heading towards establishing an independent Kingdom, making moves to be recognised by the Empire. So if those "savages" can try it, I don't see why the Nord Jarls can't do a non-violent motion to the Imperial Council.

Very true the empire recognized us Orcs as citizens and our kingdom too, even tho everyone else was opposed to it. You have our support till the end!
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Yes, it became their objective later after advancing way further than they ever meant to. If the Dominion had their sights on the Imperial City from the get-go, would the Empire exist today?

It became the objective fairly early on, after their initial success in Cyrodiil. They had overestimated Imperial strength, or so they thought. Yes the Empire would exist, because Titus II would surprise them by ditching the Imperial City to regroup. Then they would be hit by all the Legions and the two armies from Hammerfell. Empire might even be able to reclaim parts of Valenwood/Elsweyr with their extra forces.

During the Jagged Crown, Galmar says that he understands many Stormcloaks are ex-legion, and Rikke warns her soldiers of that too. I think most of them would be GW veterans, why would a young Stormcloak join the legion with Justiciars wandering around and Talos outlawed, and then decide, "actually I think I'll change sides now".

That they might know people on the other side. You're assuming they're Great War veterans, which isn't confirmed. Why can't people change sides? It isn't uncommon. Both Ulfric & Tullius make mention of Legionaries/Stormcloaks coming to their side with a change of heart.

Why would a young Stormcloak join the Legion, with Justiciars and Talos outlawed? Why would a *Young Nord join them. Because even if you disagree with the Empire on political points, the Legion is something of a tradition for many Nord families. Their fathers and father's father. Even a Stormcloak Jarl mentions he misses the Legion life.


He couldn't have been the only Summerset refugee, what about the Night of Green Fire? They must have been on the mainland for sometime? And even if the Thalmor got every-single one of them, isn't that a pretty big sign that something's up? The Altmer who were praising the Thalmor were not in Cyrodiil, I'd imagine.

Night of Green Fire happened well and truly after people understood the Thalmor threat. The refugees started fleeing when the Thalmor were assassinating/purging those who slightly disagreed with them. But, there are still huge untold numbers who support them. There were Thalmor sympathizers in Cyrodiil too.

The Stormcloaks aren't completely without espionage, see the quests, False Front and Compelling Tribute.

That isn't anything special. Nothing to be ashamed of, not having espionage ability. Nords aren't subtle, and don't like deception. Honorable race, but outclassed against a foe like the Thalmor.

The Stormcloaks are training an army, you won't see them complete it in Skyrim, just as you could play it for 50 in game years and there'd still be no moot or 2nd Great War. The Nords are a militaristic people with resources and skill to build a powerful army and navy. And High Rock has been severed from the Empire, and Skyrim was looking to make an alliance with them previously,

Which won't matter if the Great War breaks out soon after the death of Mede. High Rock would make a poor ally, they suffer from political instability. Not to mention Bretons, Nords and Redguards do not get along politically.

and I'm not sure how anyone can say the Redguards don't make natural allies.

The same people who point out, they've never once sided with each other and they fight against each other more times than not.

The only reason Stormcloaks mention Hammerfell is "They're independent and have a warrior culture". Being independent doesn't mean anything. Sharing a warrior culture doesn't mean natural allies either, makes better enemies than anything.

And after Umbriel was over, what should the majority of the legion have been doing? Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil were "peaceful and prosperous", Morrowind wasn't an Imperial Province any longer, and I've heard no where that they were trying to keep the peace in Hammerfell. There was no where else to be.

Doing what they always do. Patrolling roads, escorting trade shipments, training, establishing forts, handing out Imperial justice to criminals, fighting bandits, investigating crimes etc.

The Stormcrown Interregnum was a political thing, not a violent one for the most part.

Elder Council fracturing into petty infighting, huge numbers of claims for the throne, various uprisings, warlords popping up left and right. Described as "Seven Long Bloody Years". Yeah, not violent at all. Mostly civilized debate...

The Altmer suffered just as bad, if not worse than Cyrodiil from the Oblivion Crisis, and they reproduce at a painfully slower rate.

Cyrodiil took the worst of the Daedric invasion in Tamriel. There isn't a lot of evidence to support the theory they reproduce slower. While they have longer life spans, they mature at about the same rate as men and many do die by causes such as war, disease etc. at an age akin to when men die naturally. Tamriel doesn't often let people live full lives. Though the longer lifespans means Dominion troops can get better training for longer and veterans from the Great War will be part of their army in the next war. Mankind's Veterans from the Great War will start to fall out of active Military service, many already are.

The Medes had nothing to do with surviving the OC or the interregnum. The Umbriel Crisis seems downplayed by Skyrim, and Cyrodiil did not suffer much from it. Cheydinhal was the only city defeated and most were evacuated and later returned.

Really? The Medes dealt with the aftermath. The problems from Oblivion Crisis wasn't healed when Ocato was assassinated, and his death spark a bloody seven year war. So how did they have "nothing" to do with surviving the aftermath of it?

Cyrodiil did suffer, undead had overrun half the province. Attacking the very walls of the Imperial city. Not everyone was able to evacuate.

The Thalmor are kidnapping people in the night, they aren't worried about gathering evidence first. The Concordat gave them free reign to stamp out Talos worship so they're allowed to do almost whatever they want, the Legion can't tell them to go home because they're enforcing the ban.

The Thalmor weren't doing that until much later, which was a result from the Stormcloaks open violation. They're not allowed to do almost whatever they want, they're just doing whatever they want during the Civil War. The Empire knows, but they don't know (No evidence of the Thalmor doing things illegal, only speculation).

The prophecy can be interpreted many ways.
Kingless- Torygg being a puppet ruler
Bleeding-The Thalmor given free reign to impose the Concordat, and Nordic traditions seeping away

It speaks of the rebellion, no point in trying to twist that. It is well established, and it was established during it's first announcement trailer.

I believe Skyrim became divided over its ruler twice, both long times ago. We don't have a lot of information on the War of Succession that lost them Morrowind and High Rock, but the other time was just a peaceful division in to East and West kingdoms. They haven't been divided anymore than other provinces have.

For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last.

Tell me why a Skyrim-High Rock-Hammerfell Alliance doesn't make sense.

Why doesn't a Nord/Altmer alliance make much sense?

High Rock is an unstable place, filled with political bickering. They don't share the Nord view on things, and Nords don't like fighting with them due to their complex strategies and deceptions.

Hammerfell has never gotten on with Nords, even when under the Empire. While Nords have a warrior cultural affection, Redguards have a warrior way of life. Just because both are warrior provinces, doesn't mean they will side with one another. Like Orcs in Skyrim, they share a warrior lifestyle. But are more often bitter enemies, probably the one race Nords get owned by. Many Jarls have gone down in history dying trying to remove the "pests" from their lands. Stormcloaks alos mention the Orc strongholds as an affront to their people, so the resentment is still there.

Skyrim would probably benefit from the alliance, they won't have to guard their borders from hundreds of years of resentment. But, what do High Rock and Hammerfell gain? Skyrim is the weakest province in Tamriel after the Civil War. A land ravaged by war and dragons, where most of the Holds are quite poor and trade has been weakened. I really wouldn't put it past High Rock/Hammerfell invading Skyrim and it would settle the Imperial vs Stormcloak debate.

Though what might hurt Skyrim for a time will be the loss of their free trade if Stormcloaks win. Though at least you can bitch alongside the Dunmer about the EETC bleeding you dry.

I disagree, if they had their eyes on the Imperial City from the beginning, they could fortified Southern Hammerfell quickly and then both armies would be in Cyrodiil. They may not even have stopped there and could've continued North because they'd be undistracted by anything on the other side of the Alik'r and they would've reached the capital faster and probably with less causalties.

*Stormcloak to be, if you want to get nit-picky. If you look at what a lot of the Stormcloaks look like they look old enough to be veterans, at least a quarter of them.

They're still 2 good examples of the Stormcloak's espionage potential, and Galmar doesn't seem to distraught over resorting to it. Espionage was simply something the Stormcloakd couldn't invest into espionage during the rebellion.

That's Esbern's take on it, the prophecy doesn't downright say civil war.

That's a passage from an Imperial-biased book, I gave you the only substantial times Nords have been divided over their King.

And Hammerfell hasn't really not gotten on with Skyrim, they have warred ONCE (and that's impressive for bordering Tamrielic nations) and Jagar Tharn had a lot to do with that. Why would Hammerfell not ally with them? They're still not happy with the Empire, so a fellow independant nation who wants to stick it to the Dominion makes a lot more sense. High Rock would hop right on board without the Empire looking after them.
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Yes but they'd be losing one of their last provinces, a resource rich one at that. Also, if that's the case, why bother resisting the rebellion? It's possible I suppose but I wouldn't bet on it.

Hence trade agreements. Skyrim will still want the free trade they enjoy under the Empire. Why bother resisting a rebellion? Because there is a difference between peaceful removal, and open rebellion. They didn't want to get involved in the conflict anyway, the Stormcloaks were fighting other Holds in skirmishes for years before the Legion stepped in. Wasn't until Ulfric killed Torygg as a message to the other Jarls, that the Empire couldn't ignore it anymore.

"I was once, but not any more. I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you." - Solaf, about being a Stormcloak.

"That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days." - Alvor, about Ulfric killing Torygg.

"It's pretty simple. Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support, so a few months ago he murdered the High King! That got the Empire's attention." - Hadvar, on Ulfric and the Stormcloaks.

I don't see why you wouldn't bet on it, the Empire aren't evil. Look at the Armistice Treaty, that gave the Dunmer vast freedoms and damn near independence of Imperial law.

There is no argument against why the Empire would say no, other than "Just cause they are bad guys and evil tyrants". According to the Bear of Markarth the Reachmen were heading towards establishing an independent Kingdom, making moves to be recognised by the Empire. So if those "savages" can try it, I don't see why the Nord Jarls can't do a non-violent motion to the Imperial Council.

That sounds more like Skyrim remains an Imperial Province, but without the Concordat. Skyrim probably wouldn't agree to that half of that (Legion recruitment, still being so close to the empire in general) , and the Dominion would have something to say about it.
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
The imperials. They have been good to us Orcs, we have a debt to pay them and we always pay the bloodprice. Don't care much for the Nords or their cries of oppression. They are the last race in tamriel who can cry oppression, try being an Orc and know real oppression from the other races.

Bunch of genocidal immigrants who think skyrim should only be ruled by nords. We Orcs were there first and during your war with the falmer our races first met. Just attacked us randomly and tried to wipe out our race for no reason other than we were there. Us Orcs were happily minding our business until 500 crazy bearded dudes came at us and destroyed many of our settlements.

Nords have been a LOT more tolerant to Orsimer than Bretons and Redguards. Orc Strongholds are left alone by Nords and everyone likes it that way. Orcs have long harassed humans of North-West Tamriel, which is why Orsinium has been destroyed so many times by them. And technically Orcs (or followers of Trinimac) kicked the Beastfolk out before Nords arrived.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
The Dominion never expected the Legion to enforce the WGC, they just had to get themselves back in shape before they could enforce it themselves.

I mentioned the name of the quest because you said Ulfric could've just stuck with the Old Holds and called it a day. They want to make all of Skyrim strong and free, united.

The Greybeards say they serve Kynareth, it was Kynareth who gave mortals the ability to use the voice. She is the Goddess of the Thu'um if there ever was one. Talos' blessing is probably Talos recognizing what would be useful to you as a fellow Dragonborn. The Blessing of Talos in Oblivion is way different.

That book on Boethiah comes from an actual, direct meeting with her. The only meeting with a manifestation of Talos was the Nerevarine and Wulf in Morrowind who basically told him that the Empire needed to be replaced.

That was sarcasm, I doubt any Imperials were just thrilled that Talos was outlawed, but he is less important to Imperials than Nords, or maybe religon is just less important to Imperials in general.

What do you mean he left the Empire to be pillaged? As a god? TES gods cannot affect the mortal plane so directly, the occasional manifestation, blessing or bit of luck is about the most they can do, much less win an entire war.


Oh really hahaha.

Well you do actually, have some good points here. I won't deny you that. And one thing - that you can't deny - is separation of church and state is foundation for rational Gov and that regardless of anyone's opinion, by not enforcing the WGC and the Emperor intending the WGC to only be implied and expressed in an official capacity makes the Imperial Gov Rational as well. Banning one God is no different, they could have banned them all and still result is the same because - as you said - the Dominion knew it was going to have to get it's hands dirty to enforce the WGC because the Imperial Gov was too rational.

Seeing how the Thalmor send their people from the Embassy's means this is a Diplomatic issue and as soon as the Empire gets the chance, the Thalmor can be removed from their borders thru Diplomacy. And well, let's face it, if you have another war planned there's no sense chasing Talos worshipers around when their very purposes for being there, - the Civil War - is mostly over and your point man dead.

Question though. You seem like a thoughtful person. Just one question.

How do you rationalize Ulfric as a Freedom Fighter after he's taken / taking / will take Freedom away from so many others? ie Reachmen, Whiterun, Argonians, Dark Elves, Imperial Nords etc... Ulric has had a strong hand in the oppression towards each of these groups, how do you figure he's fighting for everyone's Freedom? Make me a believer. Talos is listening. :)

Alright, that's a good question. Well, being honest, I don't fully support Ulfric, there are things I would change about him. For instance I do not agree at all with the way he handled Torygg. Especially when (I believe it was) Sybille Stentor said that Torygg already respected Ulfric enough to give the matter of independence some thought. A peaceful Stormcloak Revoultion had me practically drooling. Maybe the Empire wouldn't have accepted that but still. Like you said earlier, if Ulfric hadn't lead the charge, someone else would've.

On to your question though. Is Ulfric's xenophobia justified? Considering all his comrades he saw die at the hands of elves, returning home and having them deny him Talos, his city being filled with resource-consuming refugees who decline to fight for his cause? I don't know. I'll say in his defense it's more of a Nord thing than an Ulfric thing. Dunmer/Nord tensions especially have raged for centuries. At a time when outsiders are dragging people off in the night, and an alien-looking, Daedra-worshipping, all around grim people your ancestors have warred with for generations show up at your doorstep, how would you feel? Argonians and Dunmer have had recent troubles, which could explain his decision to separate them, to prevent violence. Even if it is a racial thing, Beastfolk aren't treated particularly well all across Tamriel. As for Reachmen, well I think most of us have rejected the majority of The Bear of Markarth. It was an Imperial Jarl who presided over most of the current Forsworn stituation, but I suppose the Silver-Bloods aren't going to make things much better. I don't think much can be done to appease the Forsworn at this point, sadly. He regretfully lays siege to Whiterun, it's Balgruuf who returns the axe. "If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better,". And that's him talking to his most devoted friend and general so no need for charismatic stuff. I wouldn't say that Stormcloak Whiterun is overly oppressed. The shopkeepers you can ask about say the guards don't buy as much from them, but Ulfric doesn't have a ton to do with that. The Battle-borns are way over-reacting, but I can understand their bitterness. I can't help but think of the Altmer and Imperials living comfortably in Windhelm and wonder if the Dunmer could be doing something differently.

Ulfric fights for the right of the Nords to rule their homeland as they see fit, just as Imperials rule Cyrodiil, Dunmer rule Morrowind, Argonians rule Black Marsh etc, etc...

Is Ulfric racist? Probably so, yes. Is the treatment of other races his doing alone? I'd say no. Are his actions justifiable? That's a matter of opinion. Understandable at least? I think so. Is it bad enough where he's worse than other people of considerable power on Tamriel and he's downright evil? I'd say no.

At the end of the day, racial tension seems like it will forever be a part of Tamriel. The Dunmer's enslavement of Beastfolk, the multiple sackings of Orsinium, Men vs. Mer in general. The Stormcloaks aren't the first, or the worst, but they seem to take the most hatred for it.


Not bad, this is a good summary. I can see you have worked very hard to empathize with the rebellion's feelings and portrayed this in a very comprehensive manner without jumping down the Empire's throat. Yet you can empathize with 'our' feelings on the matter as well. That is rare. :)

Too bad you weren't in Skyrim at the time. ;)
 
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