Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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J

Jeremius

Guest
Again, by the time that they would get word of the execution it would be too late. Ulfric is an expendable asset to them, they don't need him. He is just a special opportunity to the Thalmor.

It would not be about Ulfric, but the power of the Thalmor over the Empire.
That reply made no sense in contributing to the current topic.

The original point had nothing to do with Ulfric, but the Thalmor themselves. Why would the Thalmor attack a garrison with soldiers, when they are supposedly masters of Cloak and Dagger? it makes no sense.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Way I saw it, the Thalmor were keeping a close eye on the prison transport. Tullius was heading for Cyrodiil, until he made a last moment change of plans due to the Thalmor. Or perhaps he didn't trust anyone with his plans and was heading towards Cyrodiil as a diversion, quickly moving into to Helgan to throw the Thalmor off balance.

Whatever the case may be, it is clear they would have ambushed them somewhere along the road if Ulfric was to get this "trial" Stormcloak supporters go on about. Some Stormcloaks may say Tullius acted badly, or that the Empire was "afraid" to let Ulfric speak.

Look at it from the Imperials point of view. In a single stroke they would end the rebellion, send a clear message to anyone who thinks of uprising against the Empire and disrupt Thalmor plans. All in a day's work.

The original point had nothing to do with Ulfric, but the Thalmor themselves. Why would the Thalmor attack a garrison with soldiers, when they are supposedly masters of Cloak and Dagger? it makes no sense.

Thalmor are not above using direct force to achieve their goals. The Great War is evident to that fact. The issue would actually be numbers, the Thalmor wouldn't have the manpower to launch an attack on a Military garrison. Not only are the Legion starting to figure out the Thalmor are behind the rebellion, the garrison would be on alert in case of Stormcloak counter attack.

It would be suicide to attack them, while they're on high alert. Ulfric's presence ensures they'll be on the watch for any forces moving into position. Not to mention it is also broad daylight...

You can't really sneak up on a Military stronghold with enough soldiers to lay siege, manned by alert soldiers in the middle of the day. I simply can't see the Thalmor pulling enough soldiers and siege equipment out of thin air to attack the Legion. Realistically they could hold out for weeks or even months. Helgan is a keep, filled with amble stores of food. There is also a Legion controlled fort within spitting distance of Helgan who guard Pale Pass, so they can get reinforcements.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Well maybe Ulfric did take advantage of this. Like you said earlier, no one on Tamriel is really a saint. Ulfric is no idiot. Like in season unending, he agrees to even the crappiest possible terms for the Stormcloaks, but (more often than not) succeeding in aquiring a resource rich and very defensible hold from the Imperials anyway is genius.

You always were a fool, Ulfric. You're no better at diplomacy than you are on the battlefield - Tullius

I wouldn't say genius, Markarth's supply routes aren't reliable. The Forsworn control many of them and attack convoys often. You also have the Legion surrounding them on all sides with Solitude, parts of Whiterun and Falkreath. Tullius (also can) gain Riften in exchange. Not only does that mean he threatens Ulfric's flank, it restores Tullius' communications with Cyrodiil (Major advantage the Stormcloaks lose) and allows him to ferry supplies and soldiers across the lake to speed up Imperial movements without fear of being ambushed on the roads.
 
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General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Some Stormcloaks like to use Lokir's death in their argument about Imperial cruelty. I went back and watched the beginning of the game and I noticed that Lokir said "Damn you Stormcloaks, the Empire was nice and lazy until you showed up. If they hadn't been looking for you, I would have stolen that horse and been half way to Hammerfell by now."

"The Empire was nice and lazy". Shouldn't that signify that the Empire wasn't active that much, if at all, in Skyrim? I also know that when he's yelling the names of the divines in the cart, he never once mentions Talos. I just find it funny that the man some Stormcloaks use against the Empire, is himself against the Stormcloaks and giving key information about the Empires status in Skyrim. :p
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I always assumed that direct force was a last resort @DrunkenMage. Like in the Great War. In Valenwood and Elsweyr, they used stealthy tactics to gain more power, so it would make sense for them to assassinate Tullius after the execution of Ulfric then blame the rebels for hiring the DB, or call the DB talos worshipers and gain more power to cause more problem by getting it from the Empire. Ban the elves, free the humans.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I always assumed that direct force was a last resort @DrunkenMage. Like in the Great War. In Valenwood and Elsweyr, they used stealthy tactics to gain more power, so it would make sense for them to assassinate Tullius after the execution of Ulfric then blame the rebels for hiring the DB, or call the DB talos worshipers and gain more power to cause more problem by getting it from the Empire. Ban the elves, free the humans.

Not always. Valenwood while it did have shadowy tactics, it also had fighting between Aldmeri and unprepared garrisons. Elsweyr joined willingly, they weren't even part of the Empire at the time.

No point in assassinating Tullius after the execution of Ulfric, the Imperials will be in a position of strength and already threaten Thalmor position in Skyrim. Besides, if they failed... Tullius wouldn't hesitate to execute them all. Risk would be too great, because the Empire is in the better position with their army on the Dominion's doorstep.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
The Blades were working with the Empire, and the Penitus Oculatus had been gathering information as well. The Valenwood/Elsweyr border was obviously not defended enough, and the Aldmeri advance was not even slowed until they reached the Imperial City. Say what you will, you can't deny the empire was ill-prepared.

The Empire was ill-prepared for a full scale invasion. No one saw it coming and the Aldmeri had the advantage of surprise, which is a big bonus in war. The Blades had underestimated the Thalmor.

Each region worships the divines differently. And your gonna have to show me anyone questioning Talos' status as a divine prior to the WGC.

He wasn't considered a Divine during Daggerfall. Only the Eight was the official religion in the region.

In Oblivion he seemed very popular throughout Cyrodiil, and many elves worship the NINE divines.

Of course he was popular in Cyrodiil. He was made the God of Man and Lord of the Divines. Though he was often called the "Eight and One", I'm not sure I understand your point about elves who worship the Nine? There are Nords who hate the Divines, Talos included. Consider them pretenders.

Akatosh isn't very popular in Skyrim either.

He is now, has shrines dedicated to him.

Every region favours some divines over others. If someone oppressed your religion, arranged your execution and gave you last rites that basically tell you your God isn't real, you'd be pissed.

This religion predates Talos for thousands of years. Generally speaking, one could argue saying "Nine Divines" is oppressive to those who consider the adding of Talos, heresy. Saying "Eight Divines" has the same result, and yet your own character calls the Divines "the Eight". Or saying "Divines" is treason to the traditional Nords, because they are pretenders of the Nordic religion.

When it comes to religion. You always piss someone off.

Talos is the god of war, no one expects him to be overly kind and tolerant. Things have to be done for the greater good, your the empire wouldn't be there without him. We don't know whether the heresy is true or not, but would you have preferred Cuhlecain over the Septims?

Hero God of Mankind, Lord of the Divines. The heresy is basically confirmed in Skyrim, with the ghost at the inn in the Reach.

And I couldn't care less about cults, they're cults, mainstream Talos worship is pretty ordinary.

... Cults are the mainstream religion in TES.

Ulfric probably would have been found guilty, but no matter what under his circumstances especially a trial would have been better. And it would have gave Ulfric a chance to raise some issues with the Empire and the state of Skyrim.

Yes, I'm sure the Imperials would remove his gag for a trial in the presence of the Emperor. The man wants to go down in songs or die a martyr. He's going to raise some issues in a civilized manner? Wouldn't put it past him to try kill the Emperor with the Thu'um.

And if the Blades underestimated the Thalmor, the Empire should have been doing their own espionage. You said the Penitus Oculatus was also looking into the Dominion, and apparantly they too also failed to report any plans of invasion. And the Oculatus is an Imperial organization through and through. Either way, a growing superpower, with extremist views who share a border with you and have been picking away at your territory for over a century, and you weren't preparing for military action?

I'd say that the lore in Daggerfall is underdeveloped, because Talos would probably be at least acknowledged, even if he's not worshipped. Still, it's in game stuff so I'll have to let you have this one.

Akatosh is still not popular in Skyrim, the Solitude temple has a shrine but that's it, other than the odd one you'll find out in the wild. One of the in-game books explains that because of the dragons and Alduin, along Akatosh being Auriel, made him pretty unpopular.

The Empire endorsed Talos as a divine and there is overwhelming evidence that he became a god. I'm just saying it was a low blow of the empire to give last rites to their prisoners that went blatantly against their religion. Yes, everybody gets touchy about religion but to do that to people who are about to be executed is just sad.

The heresy isn't confirmed, it's possible the truth contains elements of both. Just because he went by the name Hjalti doesn't mean anything. The orthodox story never gives him a birth name, he is named Talos for using the thu'um, and then makes up Tiber Septim for being Emporer.

For anything not in the Divines, yes cults are the norm. But the city chapels and churches, that sort of stuff in the more civilized parts of Tamriel (and presumably a large part of the population) is more mainstream than cults and that.

All the more reason for a trial in Cyrodiil ;)
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Well maybe Ulfric did take advantage of this. Like you said earlier, no one on Tamriel is really a saint. Ulfric is no idiot. Like in season unending, he agrees to even the crappiest possible terms for the Stormcloaks, but (more often than not) succeeding in aquiring a resource rich and very defensible hold from the Imperials anyway is genius.

You always were a fool, Ulfric. You're no better at diplomacy than you are on the battlefield - Tullius

I wouldn't say genius, Markarth's supply routes aren't reliable. The Forsworn control many of them and attack convoys often. You also have the Legion surrounding them on all sides with Solitude, parts of Whiterun and Falkreath. Tullius (also can) gain Riften in exchange. Not only does that mean he threatens Ulfric's flank, it restores Tullius' communications with Cyrodiil (Major advantage the Stormcloaks lose) and allows him to ferry supplies and soldiers across the lake to speed up Imperial movements without fear of being ambushed on the roads.

Trash talk is trash talk, that doesn't have a lot of weight behind it. And what better hold could Ulfric get? Their not going to give him Whiterun, that would make the whole negotiation pointless, morthal is useless other than being close to Solitude which Markarth is as well. Markarth is insanely defensible, farms and mines make it self sufficient, and is bordering Solitude. There's only one scenario where it isn't guaranteed Ulfric gets Markarth, and even if he loses the Rift it's not as defensible nor resource rich.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Some Stormcloaks like to use Lokir's death in their argument about Imperial cruelty. I went back and watched the beginning of the game and I noticed that Lokir said "Damn you Stormcloaks, the Empire was nice and lazy until you showed up. If they hadn't been looking for you, I would have stolen that horse and been half way to Hammerfell by now."

"The Empire was nice and lazy". Shouldn't that signify that the Empire wasn't active that much, if at all, in Skyrim? I also know that when he's yelling the names of the divines in the cart, he never once mentions Talos. I just find it funny that the man some Stormcloaks use against the Empire, is himself against the Stormcloaks and giving key information about the Empires status in Skyrim. :p

I don't think any Stormcloaks have said anything about Lokir, I don't blame the Empire for killing him if he's gonna run. I blame them for planning on executing a common thief, and not even knowing what he did. No one cares if the Legion is in Skyrim, it's the Justiciars people want out. Obviously Legion patrols were increased during a war, especially around Helgen and/or Darkwater Crossing where Lokir was probably captured along with Ulfric. He also doesn't mention Stendarr, Zenithar, Julianos or Arkay. Everyone has their favourite divines, those are probably the ones he grew up knowing the most or reflect his beliefs the best, I don't know. And if you really wanna get into lore, you could argue he mentions Talos by mentioning Shor.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And if the Blades underestimated the Thalmor, the Empire should have been doing their own espionage. You said the Penitus Oculatus was also looking into the Dominion, and apparantly they too also failed to report any plans of invasion. And the Oculatus is an Imperial organization through and through.

The Empire was doing their own espionage, considered them a great threat to Imperial security. Almost went to war with them (Which would have been a huge mistake at the time, since it was wanted as a diversion).

The Thalmor are clever, no one saw the Great War coming. Now you could blame the Empire, the Blades, the Penitus Oculatus. Or you could just accept that the Thalmor are crafty. I doubt the Dominion were very open about their intentions, they were plotting this for one hundred and fifty years. Maybe their plans were discovered and the great purge wiped out anyone who could warn the Empire.

Either way, a growing superpower, with extremist views who share a border with you and have been picking away at your territory for over a century, and you weren't preparing for military action?

They did have some defenses, but how long do you sit around with your army on their border? One hundred and fifty years? You prepare for Military action when intelligence reports it is needed. The Thalmor picked away at Valenwood, and then went silent. Elsweyr wasn't part of the Empire for a long time when they joined the Dominion as client states.

The Empire's power rises and falls constantly. One Emperor could have a very strong army, but then two crowns later and recruitment has dropped to where you have Military weakness. What if people decided they didn't want to join the army in your country, time goes by and current soldiers retire or decide to leave the Military for a civilian job. But, no one has replaced them.

Will you blame your leader? "You should have conscripted people by force!"

The Dominion have a well trained Military, they had the advantage of surprise. The Empire managed to survive against all odds, so give them some credit.

I'd say that the lore in Daggerfall is underdeveloped, because Talos would probably be at least acknowledged, even if he's not worshipped. Still, it's in game stuff so I'll have to let you have this one.

A lot more rich in lore. Before Bethesda starting "dumbing" things down. Also Bethesda's TES lore comes from a source the creators put together in the 90s. There is still large amounts of stuff unused, it isn't underdeveloped. Be like saying Skyrim's lore is. Arena was, back then they had no idea what an Elder Scroll is.

Akatosh is still not popular in Skyrim, the Solitude temple has a shrine but that's it, other than the odd one you'll find out in the wild. One of the in-game books explains that because of the dragons and Alduin, along Akatosh being Auriel, made him pretty unpopular.

The Nords preferred the Dragon Ysmir, to Akatosh over two hundred years ago. Back when they were resisting the divines. Though you still have many Divines not being popular by the traditional Nords.

The Empire endorsed Talos as a divine and there is overwhelming evidence that he became a god.

Of course there is. The Empire still worships Talos, they're just silent about it at the moment. The Mede Dynasty tried very hard to preserve Talos' Empire. But, sacrifices have to be made. Open Talos worship vs millions of lives.

Most religion is about sacrifice.

I'm just saying it was a low blow of the empire to give last rites to their prisoners that went blatantly against their religion. Yes, everybody gets touchy about religion but to do that to people who are about to be executed is just sad.

Arkay's Rites is not against their religion. I doubt that Stormcloak was so offended over "Eight Divines" as he was bored standing around. He wanted them to get it over with, cause the Empire takes their time.

Saying the Eight, isn't going to offend them. Or should I condemn any Nord who says Kyne? Because that is offensive to the Imperial religion Eight and Nine.

There is a Stormcloak Jarl who doesn't worship Talos, or consider him a God. She worships the Eight Divines. Should she be taken out back and burned because she is blatantly against their religion?

The heresy isn't confirmed, it's possible the truth contains elements of both. Just because he went by the name Hjalti doesn't mean anything. The orthodox story never gives him a birth name, he is named Talos for using the thu'um, and then makes up Tiber Septim for being Emporer.

The ghost also confirms High Rock. The orthodox claims he was born Talos of Atmora.

For anything not in the Divines, yes cults are the norm. But the city chapels and churches, that sort of stuff in the more civilized parts of Tamriel (and presumably a large part of the population) is more mainstream than cults and that.

The Imperial Cult is the Divines, and the chapels and churches. Civilized parts of Tamriel? They're still fanatics, with religious Military orders for each of the Divines. The Talos Cult has large numbers within the Legion itself. Tiber also formed the Cult of Emperor Zero.

The Moth Priests and their Cult is interesting. They once rebelled against Tiber, he lost the Imperial City to them for awhile until the Third Legion had to retake it. Such is with Emperors and being forced out of their capital?

All the more reason for a trial in Cyrodiil ;)

Okay. Could you elaborate how we get Ulfric to Cyrodiil? Pale Pass is blocked.

I wonder if the Thalmor actually had something to do with that... Only crossed my mind now, they did get to Helgan ahead of Tullius.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
And if the Blades underestimated the Thalmor, the Empire should have been doing their own espionage. You said the Penitus Oculatus was also looking into the Dominion, and apparantly they too also failed to report any plans of invasion. And the Oculatus is an Imperial organization through and through.

The Empire was doing their own espionage, considered them a great threat to Imperial security. Almost went to war with them (Which would have been a huge mistake at the time, since it was wanted as a diversion).

The Thalmor are clever, no one saw the Great War coming. Now you could blame the Empire, the Blades, the Penitus Oculatus. Or you could just accept that the Thalmor are crafty. I doubt the Dominion were very open about their intentions, they were plotting this for one hundred and fifty years. Maybe their plans were discovered and the great purge wiped out anyone who could warn the Empire.

Either way, a growing superpower, with extremist views who share a border with you and have been picking away at your territory for over a century, and you weren't preparing for military action?

They did have some defenses, but how long do you sit around with your army on their border? One hundred and fifty years? You prepare for Military action when intelligence reports it is needed. The Thalmor picked away at Valenwood, and then went silent. Elsweyr wasn't part of the Empire for a long time when they joined the Dominion as client states.

The Empire's power rises and falls constantly. One Emperor could have a very strong army, but then two crowns later and recruitment has dropped to where you have Military weakness. What if people decided they didn't want to join the army in your country, time goes by and current soldiers retire or decide to leave the Military for a civilian job. But, no one has replaced them.

Will you blame your leader? "You should have conscripted people by force!"

The Dominion have a well trained Military, they had the advantage of surprise. The Empire managed to survive against all odds, so give them some credit.

I'd say that the lore in Daggerfall is underdeveloped, because Talos would probably be at least acknowledged, even if he's not worshipped. Still, it's in game stuff so I'll have to let you have this one.

A lot more rich in lore. Before Bethesda starting "dumbing" things down. Also Bethesda's TES lore comes from a source the creators put together in the 90s. There is still large amounts of stuff unused, it isn't underdeveloped. Be like saying Skyrim's lore is. Arena was, back then they had no idea what an Elder Scroll is.

Akatosh is still not popular in Skyrim, the Solitude temple has a shrine but that's it, other than the odd one you'll find out in the wild. One of the in-game books explains that because of the dragons and Alduin, along Akatosh being Auriel, made him pretty unpopular.

The Nords preferred the Dragon Ysmir, to Akatosh over two hundred years ago. Back when they were resisting the divines. Though you still have many Divines not being popular by the traditional Nords.

The Empire endorsed Talos as a divine and there is overwhelming evidence that he became a god.

Of course there is. The Empire still worships Talos, they're just silent about it at the moment. The Mede Dynasty tried very hard to preserve Talos' Empire. But, sacrifices have to be made. Open Talos worship vs millions of lives.

Most religion is about sacrifice.

I'm just saying it was a low blow of the empire to give last rites to their prisoners that went blatantly against their religion. Yes, everybody gets touchy about religion but to do that to people who are about to be executed is just sad.

Arkay's Rites is not against their religion. I doubt that Stormcloak was so offended over "Eight Divines" as he was bored standing around. He wanted them to get it over with, cause the Empire takes their time.

Saying the Eight, isn't going to offend them. Or should I condemn any Nord who says Kyne? Because that is offensive to the Imperial religion Eight and Nine.

There is a Stormcloak Jarl who doesn't worship Talos, or consider him a God. She worships the Eight Divines. Should she be taken out back and burned because she is blatantly against their religion?

The heresy isn't confirmed, it's possible the truth contains elements of both. Just because he went by the name Hjalti doesn't mean anything. The orthodox story never gives him a birth name, he is named Talos for using the thu'um, and then makes up Tiber Septim for being Emporer.

The ghost also confirms High Rock. The orthodox claims he was born Talos of Atmora.

For anything not in the Divines, yes cults are the norm. But the city chapels and churches, that sort of stuff in the more civilized parts of Tamriel (and presumably a large part of the population) is more mainstream than cults and that.

The Imperial Cult is the Divines, and the chapels and churches. Civilized parts of Tamriel? They're still fanatics, with religious Military orders for each of the Divines. The Talos Cult has large numbers within the Legion itself. Tiber also formed the Cult of Emperor Zero.

The Moth Priests and their Cult is interesting. They once rebelled against Tiber, he lost the Imperial City to them for awhile until the Third Legion had to retake it. Such is with Emperors and being forced out of their capital?

All the more reason for a trial in Cyrodiil ;)

Okay. Could you elaborate how we get Ulfric to Cyrodiil? Pale Pass is blocked.

I wonder if the Thalmor actually had something to do with that... Only crossed my mind now, they did get to Helgan ahead of Tullius.

Yes, the Thalmor are crafty but that's no excuse for barely even being able to muster any resistance until they've almost reached the capital. What did they think the Thalmor were doing, severing contact for all that time and overthrowing two Imperial governments, as well as claiming Elsweyr? Your argument about it being stupid to be sitting around on the border is exactly what they're doing now. The Medes or their advisors should have pointed out that the Legions were in bad shape and that they needed improvement. Everything you're saying is an excuse for a dynasty that has had little to no success running the Empire. I would not put money on them for a second Great War.

Well how do you explain zero mention of Talos? The Blades, who play a crucial role in that game, make no mention of him and Talos is their patron deity as shown in Oblivion.

And there is evidence that the WGC was uneeded. How is that despite all the losses the Aldmeri took they still agreed to the same terms from the ultimatum? Is Titus an awful negotiator or is it just me?

And Arkay's rites (I doubt that before the WGC they said "blessings of the eight) are interchangeable for the eight or nine. I'm not even talking about whether it's wrong or not to oppress Talos worship, to give last rites that essentially told those men and women awaiting their executions that their God is not real, was cruel.

Lore in TES (or the way I understand it to be) is when a fact is confirmed by an official source of the elder scrolls (be it in game or a book or on an official website or statement) and no other source meeting the same criteria contradicts it. The ghost at H'roldan points toward the heresy, but there is not anything solid that confirms it. The story of Tiber Septim is something that is meant to be unknown.

There was a small cult on Vvardenfell (a strange enough place to begin with) that wished to assassinate Uriel. I doubt that on the mainland there were a large amount of legionaires hoping to get a shot in on the Emporer.

Well you said it seems they were headed in that direction, we don't know when exactly the avalanches happened, or else how did the Dragonborn get into Skyrim? That's an interesting point about the Thalmor causing the avalanches, I'm curious to know just how powerful their magic is. They lied about ending the Oblivion Crisis, and possibly lied about ending the Void Nights as well. Everyone's also always talking about how they want to cast down all the Towers and undo time, but are they powerful enough for that?
 
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General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Some Stormcloaks like to use Lokir's death in their argument about Imperial cruelty. I went back and watched the beginning of the game and I noticed that Lokir said "Damn you Stormcloaks, the Empire was nice and lazy until you showed up. If they hadn't been looking for you, I would have stolen that horse and been half way to Hammerfell by now."

"The Empire was nice and lazy". Shouldn't that signify that the Empire wasn't active that much, if at all, in Skyrim? I also know that when he's yelling the names of the divines in the cart, he never once mentions Talos. I just find it funny that the man some Stormcloaks use against the Empire, is himself against the Stormcloaks and giving key information about the Empires status in Skyrim. :p

I don't think any Stormcloaks have said anything about Lokir, I don't blame the Empire for killing him if he's gonna run. I blame them for planning on executing a common thief, and not even knowing what he did. No one cares if the Legion is in Skyrim, it's the Justiciars people want out. Obviously Legion patrols were increased during a war, especially around Helgen and/or Darkwater Crossing where Lokir was probably captured along with Ulfric. He also doesn't mention Stendarr, Zenithar, Julianos or Arkay. Everyone has their favourite divines, those are probably the ones he grew up knowing the most or reflect his beliefs the best, I don't know. And if you really wanna get into lore, you could argue he mentions Talos by mentioning Shor.
Many Stormcloaks have mentioned Lokir and his condemnation. In the early 1900's, people would hunt you down to the end of the border trying to kill you. If they caught you ,then they would either gun you down or hang you (if they weren't psychopaths.). This however is the Medieval Era. They could use so many more painful things to kill you with. Honestly, Lokir would be lucky to have his head chopped off. At least it's quick. Here is a quick explanation on the verdict ofA horse thieving...


"Punishments were often severe for horse theft, with several cultures pronouncing the sentence of death upon actual or presumed thieves."

Upon actual or suspected. If the Empire didn't know of Lokir's crime, how did Ralof know?

You miss my point, I'm not talking about the Legion itself. I'm talking about the Empire as a whole. If they were "nice and lazy", that proves two things.

1. The Empire wasn't interested in enforcing the ban in Skyrim.
2. The Empire didn't interfere with Skyrims business until Ulfric showed up.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Some Stormcloaks like to use Lokir's death in their argument about Imperial cruelty. I went back and watched the beginning of the game and I noticed that Lokir said "Damn you Stormcloaks, the Empire was nice and lazy until you showed up. If they hadn't been looking for you, I would have stolen that horse and been half way to Hammerfell by now."

"The Empire was nice and lazy". Shouldn't that signify that the Empire wasn't active that much, if at all, in Skyrim? I also know that when he's yelling the names of the divines in the cart, he never once mentions Talos. I just find it funny that the man some Stormcloaks use against the Empire, is himself against the Stormcloaks and giving key information about the Empires status in Skyrim. :p

I don't think any Stormcloaks have said anything about Lokir, I don't blame the Empire for killing him if he's gonna run. I blame them for planning on executing a common thief, and not even knowing what he did. No one cares if the Legion is in Skyrim, it's the Justiciars people want out. Obviously Legion patrols were increased during a war, especially around Helgen and/or Darkwater Crossing where Lokir was probably captured along with Ulfric. He also doesn't mention Stendarr, Zenithar, Julianos or Arkay. Everyone has their favourite divines, those are probably the ones he grew up knowing the most or reflect his beliefs the best, I don't know. And if you really wanna get into lore, you could argue he mentions Talos by mentioning Shor.
Many Stormcloaks have mentioned Lokir and his condemnation. In the early 1900's, people would hunt you down to the end of the border trying to kill you. If they caught you ,then they would either gun you down or hang you (if they weren't psychopaths.). This however is the Medieval Era. They could use so many more painful things to kill you with. Honestly, Lokir would be lucky to have his head chopped off. At least it's quick. Here is a quick explanation on the verdict ofA horse thieving...


"Punishments were often severe for horse theft, with several cultures pronouncing the sentence of death upon actual or presumed thieves."

Upon actual or suspected. If the Empire didn't know of Lokir's crime, how did Ralof know?

You miss my point, I'm not talking about the Legion itself. I'm talking about the Empire as a whole. If they were "nice and lazy", that proves two things.

1. The Empire wasn't interested in enforcing the ban in Skyrim.
2. The Empire didn't interfere with Skyrims business until Ulfric showed up.

Ok that's all well and nice but I believe in Legion controlled areas of Skyrim you receive a bounty of 50 Septims for horse theft. Soooooooo....

Ralof probably found out from Lokir while you were still KO'd. You can see Lokir does not expect to be executed. "Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. If they've captured you, oh Gods, where are they taking us?"

Neither the Empire nor the Thalmor ever expected the Legion to enforce the ban on Talos, otherwise Justiciars wouldn't exist.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
I don't think any Stormcloaks have said anything about Lokir, I don't blame the Empire for killing him if he's gonna run. I blame them for planning on executing a common thief, and not even knowing what he did. No one cares if the Legion is in Skyrim, it's the Justiciars people want out. Obviously Legion patrols were increased during a war, especially around Helgen and/or Darkwater Crossing where Lokir was probably captured along with Ulfric. He also doesn't mention Stendarr, Zenithar, Julianos or Arkay. Everyone has their favourite divines, those are probably the ones he grew up knowing the most or reflect his beliefs the best, I don't know. And if you really wanna get into lore, you could argue he mentions Talos by mentioning Shor.
Many Stormcloaks have mentioned Lokir and his condemnation. In the early 1900's, people would hunt you down to the end of the border trying to kill you. If they caught you ,then they would either gun you down or hang you (if they weren't psychopaths.). This however is the Medieval Era. They could use so many more painful things to kill you with. Honestly, Lokir would be lucky to have his head chopped off. At least it's quick. Here is a quick explanation on the verdict ofA horse thieving...


"Punishments were often severe for horse theft, with several cultures pronouncing the sentence of death upon actual or presumed thieves."

Upon actual or suspected. If the Empire didn't know of Lokir's crime, how did Ralof know?

You miss my point, I'm not talking about the Legion itself. I'm talking about the Empire as a whole. If they were "nice and lazy", that proves two things.

1. The Empire wasn't interested in enforcing the ban in Skyrim.
2. The Empire didn't interfere with Skyrims business until Ulfric showed up.

Ok that's all well and nice but I believe in Legion controlled areas of Skyrim you receive a bounty of 50 Septims for horse theft. Soooooooo....

Ralof probably found out from Lokir while you were still KO'd. You can see Lokir does not expect to be executed. "Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. If they've captured you, oh Gods, where are they taking us?"

Neither the Empire nor the Thalmor ever expected the Legion to enforce the ban on Talos, otherwise Justiciars wouldn't exist.
What do they try to do first though? Kill you. Then again however, you can zap a chicken and the whole town will try to kill you.

It can also be argued that we don't know who's horse that Lokir stole, if that's the case then the situation is entirely different. If you steal an officer's or a delegate's horse, the punishment can most certainly mean death.

I did find this...
"After the Markarth incident, the Thalmor presence in Skyrim increased, as it sought to enforce the ramifications of the Concordat."-UESP.

Hmm.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
Many Stormcloaks have mentioned Lokir and his condemnation. In the early 1900's, people would hunt you down to the end of the border trying to kill you. If they caught you ,then they would either gun you down or hang you (if they weren't psychopaths.). This however is the Medieval Era. They could use so many more painful things to kill you with. Honestly, Lokir would be lucky to have his head chopped off. At least it's quick. Here is a quick explanation on the verdict ofA horse thieving...


"Punishments were often severe for horse theft, with several cultures pronouncing the sentence of death upon actual or presumed thieves."

Upon actual or suspected. If the Empire didn't know of Lokir's crime, how did Ralof know?

You miss my point, I'm not talking about the Legion itself. I'm talking about the Empire as a whole. If they were "nice and lazy", that proves two things.

1. The Empire wasn't interested in enforcing the ban in Skyrim.
2. The Empire didn't interfere with Skyrims business until Ulfric showed up.

Ok that's all well and nice but I believe in Legion controlled areas of Skyrim you receive a bounty of 50 Septims for horse theft. Soooooooo....

Ralof probably found out from Lokir while you were still KO'd. You can see Lokir does not expect to be executed. "Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. If they've captured you, oh Gods, where are they taking us?"

Neither the Empire nor the Thalmor ever expected the Legion to enforce the ban on Talos, otherwise Justiciars wouldn't exist.
What do they try to do first though? Kill you. Then again however, you can zap a chicken and the whole town will try to kill you.

It can also be argued that we don't know who's horse that Lokir stole, if that's the case then the situation is entirely different. If you steal an officer's or a delegate's horse, the punishment can most certainly mean death.

I did find this...
"After the Markarth incident, the Thalmor presence in Skyrim increased, as it sought to enforce the ramifications of the Concordat."-UESP.

Hmm.

Yes but thats if you resist arrest, Lokir had obviously surrendered. And if he had been caught for horse theft, no jail time, trial or anything? Just off with his head?

Ulfric and his men wouldn't have demanded the freedom of religion in Markarth if the Justiciars weren't already a problem.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Ok that's all well and nice but I believe in Legion controlled areas of Skyrim you receive a bounty of 50 Septims for horse theft. Soooooooo....

Ralof probably found out from Lokir while you were still KO'd. You can see Lokir does not expect to be executed. "Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. If they've captured you, oh Gods, where are they taking us?"

Neither the Empire nor the Thalmor ever expected the Legion to enforce the ban on Talos, otherwise Justiciars wouldn't exist.
What do they try to do first though? Kill you. Then again however, you can zap a chicken and the whole town will try to kill you.

It can also be argued that we don't know who's horse that Lokir stole, if that's the case then the situation is entirely different. If you steal an officer's or a delegate's horse, the punishment can most certainly mean death.

I did find this...
"After the Markarth incident, the Thalmor presence in Skyrim increased, as it sought to enforce the ramifications of the Concordat."-UESP.

Hmm.

Yes but thats if you resist arrest, Lokir had obviously surrendered. And if he had been caught for horse theft, no jail time, trial or anything? Just off with his head?

Ulfric and his men wouldn't have demanded the freedom of religion in Markarth if the Justiciars weren't already a problem.
So you think that Lokir went up to a horse, stole it, rode it away for 5 seconds, then got off and surrendered? Yea no.

There was definitely some occurrences of capture from the Thalmor upon those who didn't worship quietly, but Ulfric is the one that increased Thalmor presence in Skyrim. Thanks to him, Nords were/are being taken captive 10x more than usual.

Also just a quick note, have you noticed that everytime you see a prisoner being escorted captive like by the Thalmor they are Stormcloaks? Not once does it say "farmer" or a race.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Hey guys just to lighten the mood, I'll tell you something funny.

I was attacking Solitude today because I was bored/testing their defenses ( I like to see which city can withstand me the longest, so far it's Markarth) and right when I got to the Jarl Elisif, she picks up an iron greatsword from nowhere and shouts "Skyrim is for the Nords!!". I kid you not! XD :p
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
What do they try to do first though? Kill you. Then again however, you can zap a chicken and the whole town will try to kill you.

It can also be argued that we don't know who's horse that Lokir stole, if that's the case then the situation is entirely different. If you steal an officer's or a delegate's horse, the punishment can most certainly mean death.

I did find this...
"After the Markarth incident, the Thalmor presence in Skyrim increased, as it sought to enforce the ramifications of the Concordat."-UESP.

Hmm.

Yes but thats if you resist arrest, Lokir had obviously surrendered. And if he had been caught for horse theft, no jail time, trial or anything? Just off with his head?

Ulfric and his men wouldn't have demanded the freedom of religion in Markarth if the Justiciars weren't already a problem.
So you think that Lokir went up to a horse, stole it, rode it away for 5 seconds, then got off and surrendered? Yea no.

There was definitely some occurrences of capture from the Thalmor upon those who didn't worship quietly, but Ulfric is the one that increased Thalmor presence in Skyrim. Thanks to him, Nords were/are being taken captive 10x more than usual.

Also just a quick note, have you noticed that everytime you see a prisoner being escorted captive like by the Thalmor they are Stormcloaks? Not once does it say "farmer" or a race.

"I COULD'VE stolen that horse and been halfway to Hammerfell.". Sounds like he didn't even mount it. Lokir isn't a fight-to-the-death kinda guy I'd say, so yeah I'd guess he surrendered pretty fast. He probably expected some jail time, but not execution.

As for the whole: "well the Stormcloaks could've just shut up and worshipped Talos in secret"
Two things:
1. The Thalmor were just as exhausted from the war as the Empire and did not have the resources to go haul off farmers in Skyrim as soon as the Concordat was signed, they were working towards that. Ulfric or not, things probably wouldn't be that different by the events of Skyrim, probably worse because the Eastern Holds wouldn't be protected and the roads would be in better shape.
2. Nordic culture is not timid or sneaky. If your worshipping Talos (basically a personification of Skyrim) in secret, your not doing it right. The Nords aren't going to be bossed around, whether they can get away with it or not, just being told they can't worship Talos is bad enough for them.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Yes but thats if you resist arrest, Lokir had obviously surrendered. And if he had been caught for horse theft, no jail time, trial or anything? Just off with his head?

Ulfric and his men wouldn't have demanded the freedom of religion in Markarth if the Justiciars weren't already a problem.
So you think that Lokir went up to a horse, stole it, rode it away for 5 seconds, then got off and surrendered? Yea no.

There was definitely some occurrences of capture from the Thalmor upon those who didn't worship quietly, but Ulfric is the one that increased Thalmor presence in Skyrim. Thanks to him, Nords were/are being taken captive 10x more than usual.

Also just a quick note, have you noticed that everytime you see a prisoner being escorted captive like by the Thalmor they are Stormcloaks? Not once does it say "farmer" or a race.

"I COULD'VE stolen that horse and been halfway to Hammerfell.". Sounds like he didn't even mount it. Lokir isn't a fight-to-the-death kinda guy I'd say, so yeah I'd guess he surrendered pretty fast. He probably expected some jail time, but not execution.

As for the whole: "well the Stormcloaks could've just shut up and worshipped Talos in secret"
Two things:
1. The Thalmor were just as exhausted from the war as the Empire and did not have the resources to go haul off farmers in Skyrim as soon as the Concordat was signed, they were working towards that. Ulfric or not, things probably wouldn't be that different by the events of Skyrim, probably worse because the Eastern Holds wouldn't be protected and the roads would be in better shape.
2. Nordic culture is not timid or sneaky. If your worshipping Talos (basically a personification of Skyrim) in secret, your not doing it right. The Nords aren't going to be bossed around, whether they can get away with it or not, just being told they can't worship Talos is bad enough for them.


Well... about #1. Their deployed forces were exhausted. Two armies were essentially routed. Lady what's her name escaped from Hammerfell with some of her army however the effort in Cyrodil just completely fell apart because Lord Naarafin got greedy and abandoned his objectives. It was like Germany taking on Russia... just no way to win because there's so much to take. However, unlike that scenario, in this case the Imperials didn't have the forces to take advantage of the resulting chaos in Dominion's failed offense... neither did Hammerfell because everyone was caught off guard in the beginning.

Now, consider the fact that most of the Dominion infrastructure survived the war, whereas Hammerfell and Cyrodil took a direct hit. So, the Dominion could have continued the war however it would have taken time to get boots deployed again however, by this time both Cyrodil and Hammerfell had the high ground and the Dominion after losing so much ground decided to stop and rethink they life. :)

As for Ulfric, he had the option to just rule the Eastern Holds and Empire wouldn't have cared otherwise. Not for a long time at least. It's when he killed the High King the Empire became interested in him. However, I get the feeling that even if Ulfric hadn't rose up someone else would've. And rightly so. Still, killing the Empire is wrong, for Talos sake that should have been the last choice on the list not the first. :/


#2 Is an interesting point. Here's my take on it. Talos doesn't care. All these plp who worship him, he's not that kind of deity, if he's a deity at all. His plp are the shouters. The ones who know how to use the Thu'um and *Follows the Way of the Voice*. That's his flock. So if you can't shout or do not have a heart after these values, then he's not your God.

And that is an issue because in the past Imperials worshiped him for what he did for the Empire, yet he doesn't care about the Empire. So the Imperials finally have 'woken up' and realize this. Talos also fought against all the Nords who resisted him, one story I remember is how Dawnstar Nords fiercely resisted Tiber Septim.

So in summation, Talos is really not the Imperials God or the Nords God. He stands for something different altogether that coincidentally helped the Imperials and Nords, yet he didn't do it for them. Or perhaps he did, yet Nords and Empire are not what he represents.

Therefore, as an Imperial or a Nord, you could get away with supporting a ban on Talos worship. One more thing too... Titus Mede II set the standard on Talos worship by banning it officially yet wearing his Talos amulet out of sight. I think that's why the dev left it like that, so if this was the Empire's actual intentions to ban Talos worship officially yet allow it in private, I can still support the Empire on this because technically there's nothing wrong with that.

They're protecting the Imperial Gov by not honoring a God who doesn't care about the Empire yet his plp can still worship him if they choose to do so privately. Makes sense to me. ;)
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yes, the Thalmor are crafty but that's no excuse for barely even being able to muster any resistance until they've almost reached the capital.

Element of surprise. It took well over a year to reach the lake that surrounds the Imperial City and then two more years to take the capital. So where do you even get "barely even being able to muster any resistance"? The Thalmor didn't simply waltz in without a fight.

What did they think the Thalmor were doing, severing contact for all that time and overthrowing two Imperial governments, as well as claiming Elsweyr?

For Summerset Isle, no one really cared or believed the stories about the Thalmor at the time. This was in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis and Red Mountain. Then the Stormcrown Interregnum with mass infighting. When Valenwood was taken by a government coup (A lot of Bosmer support) it did spark concern. The Penitus Oculatus were dealing with Thalmor espionage, and even planting agents inside Thalmor nests.

Elsweyr joined the Dominion willingly, no issues. They weren't even part of the Empire for a hundred years I think. So I doubt they cared too much about that.

What did they think about it all? That the Thalmor were a threat. Not a Military threat at the time, but a political and espionage threat.

Your argument about it being stupid to be sitting around on the border is exactly what they're doing now.

Sitting around for a hundred and fifty years =/= Preparing for another war within the next several months to a few years.

The Medes or their advisors should have pointed out that the Legions were in bad shape and that they needed improvement.

They probably did. But, you didn't simply snap your fingers and you have brand new Legions.

Everything you're saying is an excuse for a dynasty that has had little to no success running the Empire. I would not put money on them for a second Great War.

Then you have absolutely no idea about the Medes. The Empire was prosperous. Mede Dynasty had the aftermath of Oblivion Crisis and the aftermath of the Stormcrown Interregnum which nearly tore the Empire apart, the problems left behind by a really bad Emperor named Thules the Gibbering and another rebellion. Then it gets better with thousands of undead besieging the Imperial City, overrunning Cyrodiil. Thalmor espionage in nearly everything and a floating city of doom. Later on a Great War which nearly wiped out the Empire...

Yet still the Empire stands. I would put my money on the Empire, than I would a rebellion who only stand a chance if the next Great War doesn't break out soon.


Well how do you explain zero mention of Talos? The Blades, who play a crucial role in that game, make no mention of him and Talos is their patron deity as shown in Oblivion.

Talos was worshipped, but only by his Cult and the Blades. Then the Warp in the West, which did plops to space and time. Thus Talos' glory was spread to everywhere. Not the first time a deity has used a Dragonbreak establish their religion.

The patron of the Legion now is Stendarr, how often do you see Legionaries mention him?


And there is evidence that the WGC was uneeded. How is that despite all the losses the Aldmeri took they still agreed to the same terms from the ultimatum? Is Titus an awful negotiator or is it just me?

There is also evidence that the WGC was needed. The Empire needed the peace, they lost over half up to two thirds of their Military. With a main Aldmeri army in Hammerfell, and secondary forces still within Cyrodiil.

The Thalmor could have just kept the Empire at war for the next hundred years with small border skirmishes. Kind of like what they did during the Second Era I believe. Cyrodiil was also in ruins, they got really hit hard.

And Arkay's rites (I doubt that before the WGC they said "blessings of the eight) are interchangeable for the eight or nine.

Arkay's Rites have said Eight, for a whole lot longer than they've said Nine.

I'm not even talking about whether it's wrong or not to oppress Talos worship, to give last rites that essentially told those men and women awaiting their executions that their God is not real, was cruel.

If you once mentioned Divines in Skyrim, you used to get burned at a stake.

It is not cruel to say Eight Divines. It would be cruel if they used that moment to go on about Talos being a False God and that they're heretics and burned them alive in Nord religious fashion.

The Legion doesn't control the Priestess of Arkay, she said Eight Divines instead of Divines like you wanted. That is Cult business.

Lore in TES (or the way I understand it to be) is when a fact is confirmed by an official source of the elder scrolls (be it in game or a book or on an official website or statement) and no other source meeting the same criteria contradicts it. The ghost at H'roldan points toward the heresy, but there is not anything solid that confirms it. The story of Tiber Septim is something that is meant to be unknown.

Yes, and the great legendary Nord hero Talos Stormcrown born of Atmora. Who was also shorter than his Dunmer General... Wait what?

There was a small cult on Vvardenfell (a strange enough place to begin with) that wished to assassinate Uriel. I doubt that on the mainland there were a large amount of legionaires hoping to get a shot in on the Emporer.

Where do you think the Legions in Vvardenfall came from? The mainland. The Talos Cult is a group of worshippers of the great Tiber Septim, founder of the Third Empire. In order to join, new recruits swear an oath to give up their lives in attempting to put a strong man back on the throne of Tamriel. They have many followers in the Legions, conspiring to assassinate whoever the current emperor may be and replace him to prevent the Empire's decline.

Well you said it seems they were headed in that direction, we don't know when exactly the avalanches happened, or else how did the Dragonborn get into Skyrim?

The Dragonborn was caught with the Stormcloaks, still gives the Thalmor two days. We're not told what border we came into Skyrim from. Could have been the small pass in the Rift which leads into Cyrodiil. Pale Pass is what most armies use or large groups of soldiers.

That's an interesting point about the Thalmor causing the avalanches, I'm curious to know just how powerful their magic is. They lied about ending the Oblivion Crisis, and possibly lied about ending the Void Nights as well. Everyone's also always talking about how they want to cast down all the Towers and undo time, but are they powerful enough for that?

The Thalmor do have powerful Mages, that is how you're often recruited by them. Blocking Pale Pass could be done with something as simple as fireballs.

While the Thalmor do lie about many things, and use deception. They still have power, and they're a great threat. Arrogance is their weakness and they often underestimate mankind. A weakened unprepared Empire managed to get the upperhand on them.
 

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