Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Ancano

High Justiciar
No Dominion supporter should try to take any sort of moral highground.. You're in the process of carrying out an 'ethnic cleansing' of Valenwood. Go home.


The same could be set for Stormcloaks or Nords in general, who unlike the Thalmor have actually committed genocide and are actively segregating the population.

No Stormcloak or Nord should ever try to take any sort of moral high ground, only High Elves belong on the high ground. Imperials can take a little high ground, at least they're somewhat civilized.

Thalmor will go home after the Nord beasts have been put back in their place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put some more water in Ulfric's mamma's bowl.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
So, this 'true enemy' crap is B$. From the very beginning, man was his own enemy and his neighbor's enemy, arriving on Tamriel as a 'Conqueror'. However, I find it helpful at times like these to remind myself that our true enemy is instinct, not man himself. But inseparable from Instinct is its dark twin, Superstition, fear of the unknown. Instinct is inextricably bound to unreasoning impulses, and from the Empire's history we clearly see its true nature. After signing the WGC, instinct has become aware of its irrelevance and like a cornered beast, it will not go down without a bloody fight.

That's what I've been saying, 'Everyone knows it'. Well if everyone knows so much why is the Empire on it's knees? Why are the Stormcloaks being used by the Thalmor? They are both broken and serve their Elven Masters (and everyone knows it). You all know so much yet no one wants to look in a mirror and admit they screwed up. It's those witch Elves those Elven bastards... They tricked us into signing that G#$% #$%^ treaty. Those Elven Devils made us murder our neighbors and hijack Skyrim's Gov. "Everything was so much better before the Thalmor came around..."

At what point pray tell, was the generous Empire going to grant the Altmer their freedom(s)? When should 'we' have expected our benevolent overlords to come to a point where they would see us as equals? Indeed, we are not equals however my point is the thought never entered their minds in the least.

Well, clearly the Dominion has your attention now. The cause of freedom does not wait for everyone else to agree.

Mankind were actually peaceful when they arrived to Tamriel, the elves started the conflicts and issues with men. Enslaving them, torturing for fun and sport, destroying cities they built. Wasn't until Ysgramor's Five Hundred Companions and the Cyrodiil slave revolt did the balance of power change from elves to man.

No point in trying to paint the Empire as evil while claiming the Aldmeri Dominion are just defending against evil conquerors. It has been the Aldmeri that have often started these wars, in fact they formed the Dominion once because Valenwood and Cyrodiil were being friendly.

"Grant Altmer freedoms"? In what way were the Altmer oppressed by the Imperials? Even though they started the war with the Empire, they were treated as equals. Summerset Isle maintained their traditions, their methods of governing.

The Thalmor of the Fourth Era are nothing more than twisted political ideology to keep control. It has nothing to do with freedom or justice, just lies and genocide to maintain control. They kill those they deem racially impure, also use that excuse to merely remove those who oppose their beliefs. Enjoy what petty victories the Thalmor get, but their arrogance and false superiority will cause them to fail.

The Thalmor should take a good long look at the Imperials and Nords, because two Elven Civilizations have been wiped off the face of Nirn when they tried to pull the exact same pl*** the Thalmor are with genocide and enslavement.


Hold up. Man settled on whose land? Redguards get a pass. Nords do not. Nords had an entire continent to themselves and the violence was so bad there some of them had to leave.

So what did you do next? You settled on Elven land. And then what did you do? Kept taking land, outproducing the Elves and gobbling up all the resources. So the Elves removed you from their land.

Question. Elven refugees landed on Atmora. How long do you think an Elven colony would last there before the Nord prejudice and racial hate kicks in? Not very long.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying, however in this post you're kind of all over the place.

The bottom line is this. Man settled on someone else's land. 'Squatters' if you will. Ok, now you've decide to leave home, that's fine but you're living under someone else's roof so you abide by their rules or you leave.

Elves or otherwise that's how it works.

Your Empire wasn't the worse, it accomplished some good things sure. And some of the Elves screwed up rtoo however I think man has screwed up more. The Empire's wars have done more damage and shed more blood then all the Elven wars combined. Draining Tamriel of blood and money. Even when the Ayleids left Cyrodil they still hunted them down like animals.

So bring it. Even if you somehow defeat the Dominion, it matters not the Dominion will rise again, 'we' will endure same as before. Your Empire won't be as lucky, it will fragment into a million greedy little pieces and most of those will serve the Dominion in some way.

And judging by the way things are going, I think the next great war will not end well for your side.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
Eh... While I appreciate the Star Wars ref, I think you meant to say, "Kim Jong-il".

Kim Jong-un is just a figure head. I highly doubt he has any real power.

Nope, Kim Jong-un is a little more I'm afraid. I don't believe a mere puppet would have been able to get 6 high ranked bastards executed (personal friends, even). Stupid kid is worse than his father.

And this is a perfect time of year to visit the Embassy. You can enjoy of all the roast, exquisite cheeses, fine fresh beers, wines from all over Tamriel, all to the soothing screams in agony of the Dominion's enemies. Sigh.

But... I am an enemy of the Dominion.
tumblr_macgetF36Z1r7dslf.gif


I'll forward you an invitation to our next summit. Elenwen could tell you more. Radient Rament in Solitude could help you find something to wear. Ahh yes. One of the great many benefits that come from being a Justiciar. We're always 'dressed for the occassion' hehehe.

I'm human, and female at that. I'm not expected to wear anything"for the occasion". ;)


Dunno why someone over there doesn't just get rid of that little bastard.

I have friends who have family over there and the stories I could tell you guys about that place. It's like living in a funhouse of terror, inside a crowded bottle.

Well, his father had control over that place. I don't doubt junior is filling the coffers with blood, but many times throughout history that has backfired. Indeed, something seems to be going on right now in North Korea. He may be powerful but hope is the only thing stronger than fear.
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
So, this 'true enemy' crap is B$. From the very beginning, man was his own enemy and his neighbor's enemy, arriving on Tamriel as a 'Conqueror'. However, I find it helpful at times like these to remind myself that our true enemy is instinct, not man himself. But inseparable from Instinct is its dark twin, Superstition, fear of the unknown. Instinct is inextricably bound to unreasoning impulses, and from the Empire's history we clearly see its true nature. After signing the WGC, instinct has become aware of its irrelevance and like a cornered beast, it will not go down without a bloody fight.

That's what I've been saying, 'Everyone knows it'. Well if everyone knows so much why is the Empire on it's knees? Why are the Stormcloaks being used by the Thalmor? They are both broken and serve their Elven Masters (and everyone knows it). You all know so much yet no one wants to look in a mirror and admit they screwed up. It's those witch Elves those Elven bastards... They tricked us into signing that G#$% #$%^ treaty. Those Elven Devils made us murder our neighbors and hijack Skyrim's Gov. "Everything was so much better before the Thalmor came around..."

At what point pray tell, was the generous Empire going to grant the Altmer their freedom(s)? When should 'we' have expected our benevolent overlords to come to a point where they would see us as equals? Indeed, we are not equals however my point is the thought never entered their minds in the least.

Well, clearly the Dominion has your attention now. The cause of freedom does not wait for everyone else to agree.

Mankind were actually peaceful when they arrived to Tamriel, the elves started the conflicts and issues with men. Enslaving them, torturing for fun and sport, destroying cities they built. Wasn't until Ysgramor's Five Hundred Companions and the Cyrodiil slave revolt did the balance of power change from elves to man.

No point in trying to paint the Empire as evil while claiming the Aldmeri Dominion are just defending against evil conquerors. It has been the Aldmeri that have often started these wars, in fact they formed the Dominion once because Valenwood and Cyrodiil were being friendly.

"Grant Altmer freedoms"? In what way were the Altmer oppressed by the Imperials? Even though they started the war with the Empire, they were treated as equals. Summerset Isle maintained their traditions, their methods of governing.

The Thalmor of the Fourth Era are nothing more than twisted political ideology to keep control. It has nothing to do with freedom or justice, just lies and genocide to maintain control. They kill those they deem racially impure, also use that excuse to merely remove those who oppose their beliefs. Enjoy what petty victories the Thalmor get, but their arrogance and false superiority will cause them to fail.

The Thalmor should take a good long look at the Imperials and Nords, because two Elven Civilizations have been wiped off the face of Nirn when they tried to pull the exact same pl*** the Thalmor are with genocide and enslavement.


I've done some research and collaborated with an associate of mine on the subject of, "Where will TES VI be?"

The information I've received points to somewhere in Western Tamriel. It's either going to be:

1) Hammerfell
2) Elswyr + Valenwood
3) #2 + Summerset Isles

So, the way I interpret this, is you're going to end up there and the Thalmor will either defeat Cyrodil and take the Empire's place or they will both still be at a stalemate and you'll be in the custody of the Thalmor in the beginning.

And then, as the game progresses, depending on whose left standing at that time either the Empire is going to try and invade the Dominion or the Nords or they'll be some quest surrounding politics in the region.

The Thalmor aren't going away that easy guys. ;) Although I wouldn't rule out some liberation question or same quest to stop a liberation. Going to be great I think.

It could also be the Thalmor skunked the second Great War and Empire has taken back Elswyr or Valenwood, something like that. Maybe it's at the start of the second Great War. Something to think about.

If this is true, I can't wait to check it out in a year or two.
 
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Dropjaw23

Hail the Empire!
Personally I think its a shame its come to this... Stormcloaks and Imperials fighting each other, even when they both know that the Thalmor is the true enemy. If but only Ulfric would listen and not jump the gun on Deadking Torygg then they might of worked something out and took the fight to the elves. But then again the Imperial machine might of sat there and rot.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Personally I think its a shame its come to this... Stormcloaks and Imperials fighting each other, even when they both know that the Thalmor is the true enemy. If but only Ulfric would listen and not jump the gun on Deadking Torygg then they might of worked something out and took the fight to the elves. But then again the Imperial machine might of sat there and rot.

I think the bold is what a lot of Imperials think about what Ulfric did. Well, at least me.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Hold up. Man settled on whose land? Redguards get a pass. Nords do not. Nords had an entire continent to themselves and the violence was so bad there some of them had to leave.

There were tribes of men native to Tamriel. Ysgramor came to Skyrim to escape violence from Atmora, but you're leaving out the thousands who had come before who were peaceful, then they were enslaved and used as play things.

The Redguards wiped out a race of elves too.

So what did you do next? You settled on Elven land. And then what did you do? Kept taking land, outproducing the Elves and gobbling up all the resources. So the Elves removed you from their land.

The Nords built a single city, they even named the land after the elves. The Snow Elves found out the Nords had discovered something, and kept it hidden. The Falmer wanted it, so they wiped out nearly every man, woman and child.

Then the Five Hundred came and war.

Question. Elven refugees landed on Atmora. How long do you think an Elven colony would last there before the Nord prejudice and racial hate kicks in? Not very long.

If you believe the creation myths, the Nords invaded Atmora from Skyrim which was their land until they left for Atmora.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying, however in this post you're kind of all over the place.

That is rich.

The bottom line is this. Man settled on someone else's land. 'Squatters' if you will. Ok, now you've decide to leave home, that's fine but you're living under someone else's roof so you abide by their rules or you leave.

Elves or otherwise that's how it works.

Except there were tribes of men native to Tamriel. The bottom line is, don't pick a fight or enslave a species and not expect it to come back and hit you at one point.

Your Empire wasn't the worse, it accomplished some good things sure. And some of the Elves screwed up rtoo however I think man has screwed up more.

How did mankind screw up more? They're able to be peaceful with elves. It is the Mer that can't often live alongside men and beast races as equals, constantly viewing them as lesser.

The Empire's wars have done more damage and shed more blood then all the Elven wars combined. Draining Tamriel of blood and money.

The Empire's conquests brought a lot more stability, Tamriel was in chaos and fighting constantly. The Empires actions that did "more damage" and "shed more blood" actually brought peace to Tamriel and equality for men, elves and beast races for the most part.

Even when the Ayleids left Cyrodil they still hunted them down like animals.

No they didn't. They were absorbed into the elven populations of Valenwood and High Rock. Those who remained in Cyrodiil were mentors and tutors for many of the Colovian nobility.

So bring it. Even if you somehow defeat the Dominion, it matters not the Dominion will rise again, 'we' will endure same as before. Your Empire won't be as lucky, it will fragment into a million greedy little pieces and most of those will serve the Dominion in some way.

If the Empire was to fall, the Colovian Estates just pop back up. So where will these "million greedy little pieces" come from and how will they serve the Dominion?

And judging by the way things are going, I think the next great war will not end well for your side.

Then they will take as many elven bastards down with them. To die in service of the Empire and for the Emperor isn't something the Legion backs away from. Like the Third Legion in the Tiber Wars, the Tenth Legion in the Invasion of Akavir and the Eighth Legion in the Great War.

Judging by how things are going, I think the Aldmeri Dominion are going to wish they destroyed the Empire in the first war. Because their greatest benefit from the last war, is gone. The Empire is more prepared and the Legions are gathered.
 
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Lewsean

Member
No Dominion supporter should try to take any sort of moral highground.. You're in the process of carrying out an 'ethnic cleansing' of Valenwood. Go home.


The same could be set for Stormcloaks or Nords in general, who unlike the Thalmor have actually committed genocide and are actively segregating the population.

No Stormcloak or Nord should ever try to take any sort of moral high ground, only High Elves belong on the high ground. Imperials can take a little high ground, at least they're somewhat civilized.

Thalmor will go home after the Nord beasts have been put back in their place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put some more water in Ulfric's mamma's bowl.
I'm sorry but it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
The Thalmor should take a good long look at the Imperials and Nords, because two Elven Civilizations have been wiped off the face of Nirn when they tried to pull the exact same pl*** the Thalmor are with genocide and enslavement.

This is one of the main reasons why I'm a Stormcloaks supporter, and siding with them is a good idea, and not bad. The fact that theirs 2 factions that share the same hatred for the Thalmor makes it even better, and could very well form a temporary alliance with each other to deal with the Thalmor issue down the road once things get calm, and settled.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c348e

Ulfric may hate the Empire with the passion, but he still has respect for them.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x001039b5
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x001039b6
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
The Thalmor should take a good long look at the Imperials and Nords, because two Elven Civilizations have been wiped off the face of Nirn when they tried to pull the exact same pl*** the Thalmor are with genocide and enslavement.

This is one of the main reasons why I'm a Stormcloaks supporter, and siding with them is a good idea, and not bad. The fact that theirs 2 factions that share the same hatred for the Thalmor makes it even better, and could very well form a temporary alliance with each other to deal with the Thalmor issue down the road once things get calm, and settled.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c348e

Ulfric may hate the Empire with the passion, but he still has respect for them.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x001039b5
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x001039b6
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I'd be a Stormcloak if the rebellion was twenty or more years ago. Breaking away now over the White-Gold Concordat when it could be gone soon, is like standing in line for an hour and storming off when you're next to be served.

If the Empire wasn't making any moves to prepare for a second round, if dialogue wasn't hinting at another war just around the corner.. Then I might be a Stormcloak.

They have to rebuild the entire province, train up a professional Military and all the logistics that come with fielding an army far from home. Keeping supply lines open from Skyrim, which in all honesty is a bitch due to treacherous nature of Pale Pass and the pass around Riften is simply too far away, unless you want to spend weeks or months going back and forth depending on the season since you're not marching through the mountains in winter. No point in going independent if you need to rely on the Imperials to keep you supplied. This isn't invading a province right next to you.

Also lacking a navy, merchant vessels won't cut it against the superior Aldmeri ships. Doesn't help there aren't many Battlemages in Skyrim anymore, they play an important asset in naval warfare in TES. It is considered bad luck to have Mages/Battlemages on ships, so the superstitious Nords have two reasons to oppose this idea.

If we had a decade, alright. But, what about months or a couple of years? How do we deal with Thalmor espionage? They won't simply allow us to build a massive force to invade them with, we can't rely on the Blades since they're far more interested in Dragons and don't have a spy network anymore.

If things like this were answered even in the slightest, alright then:

1) How do we get there?
2) How long do we have preparing? The Empire and Dominion have had near three decades, we can't exactly come up with something amazing if we have months to plot strategies and train soldiers.
3) Rebuilding and restocking supplies, the Dragons were a pest, but the war took it's toll.
4) Do we trust Ulfric to lead us to victory, or certain death in the quest for personal glory?
5) If Ulfric were killed, which other Jarl will lead us?
6) What happens if the Empire doesn't let Skyrim go so easily? There is a Legion force gathering inside Cyrodiil to march into Skyrim.

It isn't a simple matter going independent and preparing a massive invasion shortly after. I'm not sure if Ulfric thinks about that, or his words of taking the fight to the Dominion were more boastful than actual fact. Ralof mentions they're tired of fighting the Empire's wars, so is the conflict with the Aldmeri more of an Imperial issue?

As a Stormcloak, we'd have to prepare to fight the Dominion ourselves. If we're just relying on Hammerfell or the Empire to hopefully be able to help us, why did we bother going independent? What happens if Cyrodiil was to fall without Skyrim, besides the economic impact it is also symbolic since Cyrodiil and Skyrim together are the Empire. When the Imperial's Empire collapses, it is a messy affair. The Legions without an Empire or Emperor turn into mercenaries and brigands. Raiding supplies and following some messed up self proclaimed Generals.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
No Dominion supporter should try to take any sort of moral highground.. You're in the process of carrying out an 'ethnic cleansing' of Valenwood. Go home.


The same could be set for Stormcloaks or Nords in general, who unlike the Thalmor have actually committed genocide and are actively segregating the population.

No Stormcloak or Nord should ever try to take any sort of moral high ground, only High Elves belong on the high ground. Imperials can take a little high ground, at least they're somewhat civilized.

Thalmor will go home after the Nord beasts have been put back in their place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put some more water in Ulfric's mamma's bowl.
I'm sorry but it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


And in both your posts, thus far, you have countered absolutely nothing I've said. Mage at least is putting up a fight hahaha.

Most people don't understand the Thalmor anyways, which does not indicate a lack of intelligence on my part.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
Hold up. Man settled on whose land? Redguards get a pass. Nords do not. Nords had an entire continent to themselves and the violence was so bad there some of them had to leave.

There were tribes of men native to Tamriel. Ysgramor came to Skyrim to escape violence from Atmora, but you're leaving out the thousands who had come before who were peaceful, then they were enslaved and used as play things.

The Redguards wiped out a race of elves too.

So what did you do next? You settled on Elven land. And then what did you do? Kept taking land, outproducing the Elves and gobbling up all the resources. So the Elves removed you from their land.

The Nords built a single city, they even named the land after the elves. The Snow Elves found out the Nords had discovered something, and kept it hidden. The Falmer wanted it, so they wiped out nearly every man, woman and child.

Then the Five Hundred came and war.

Question. Elven refugees landed on Atmora. How long do you think an Elven colony would last there before the Nord prejudice and racial hate kicks in? Not very long.

If you believe the creation myths, the Nords invaded Atmora from Skyrim which was their land until they left for Atmora.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying, however in this post you're kind of all over the place.

That is rich.

The bottom line is this. Man settled on someone else's land. 'Squatters' if you will. Ok, now you've decide to leave home, that's fine but you're living under someone else's roof so you abide by their rules or you leave.

Elves or otherwise that's how it works.

Except there were tribes of men native to Tamriel. The bottom line is, don't pick a fight or enslave a species and not expect it to come back and hit you at one point.

Your Empire wasn't the worse, it accomplished some good things sure. And some of the Elves screwed up rtoo however I think man has screwed up more.

How did mankind screw up more? They're able to be peaceful with elves. It is the Mer that can't often live alongside men and beast races as equals, constantly viewing them as lesser.

The Empire's wars have done more damage and shed more blood then all the Elven wars combined. Draining Tamriel of blood and money.

The Empire's conquests brought a lot more stability, Tamriel was in chaos and fighting constantly. The Empires actions that did "more damage" and "shed more blood" actually brought peace to Tamriel and equality for men, elves and beast races for the most part.

Even when the Ayleids left Cyrodil they still hunted them down like animals.

No they didn't. They were absorbed into the elven populations of Valenwood and High Rock. Those who remained in Cyrodiil were mentors and tutors for many of the Colovian nobility.

So bring it. Even if you somehow defeat the Dominion, it matters not the Dominion will rise again, 'we' will endure same as before. Your Empire won't be as lucky, it will fragment into a million greedy little pieces and most of those will serve the Dominion in some way.

If the Empire was to fall, the Colovian Estates just pop back up. So where will these "million greedy little pieces" come from and how will they serve the Dominion?

And judging by the way things are going, I think the next great war will not end well for your side.

Then they will take as many elven bastards down with them. To die in service of the Empire and for the Emperor isn't something the Legion backs away from. Like the Third Legion in the Tiber Wars, the Tenth Legion in the Invasion of Akavir and the Eighth Legion in the Great War.

Judging by how things are going, I think the Aldmeri Dominion are going to wish they destroyed the Empire in the first war. Because their greatest benefit from the last war, is gone. The Empire is more prepared and the Legions are gathered.


Lot of quotes here and I simply don't have the time to go over every one. You responded, so I'll give the courtesy of a response.

Redguards - They get a pass because Yokuda sank and they had no where else to go. That's survival, I can understand that.

Early tribes of man - That's not the whole story. Those early humans were uncivilized and neither magically or technologically sophisticated compared to the Ayleids. The Ayleids had a slave driven economy which actually improved circumstances for man in the long run. Your very Empire was built upon the foundation the Ayleids set. That is the only reason why you were successful. And given the abuse at the hands of Tiber Septim and friends, you guys have no room to talk... either.

Eye of Magnus - How do you know the Nords weren't trying to keep the Eye for themselves or to just keep in buried? Whose land was the Eye on again? Furthermore, that's conjecture, maybe that's why the Snow Elves wanted man gone, maybe not. The truth is usually found somewhere in the middle and there could have been numerous reasons for the Elves wanting the Nords gone. Perhaps the Nords didn't want to leave. History is invariably written by the victors.

That's Rich - I got soul but I'm not a soldier. No limit son.

"Except there were tribes of men native to Tamriel. The bottom line is, don't pick a fight or enslave a species and not expect it to come back and hit you at one point."

Back to you broham. Don't pick a fight by marching an Elven artifact thru the Dominion and enslaving / looting everything in your path and expect everything will turn out alright. That's part of the reason why the Thalmor are so crazy now. Payback is a bitch. ;)

"No they didn't. They were absorbed into the elven populations of Valenwood and High Rock. Those who remained in Cyrodiil were mentors and tutors for many of the Colovian nobility."

You get half credit for this ;) The Alessian order put a stop to all of this and because of that, everyone who was left had to get out by any means possible. And furthermore by knowledgeable friend, let's not forget all the Ayleids who HELPED the Alessians earn their freedom. How were they repaid?

See "The Battle of Glenumbria Moors"
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
I'd be a Stormcloak if the rebellion was twenty or more years ago. Breaking away now over the White-Gold Concordat when it could be gone soon, is like standing in line for an hour and storming off when you're next to be served.

If the Empire wasn't making any moves to prepare for a second round, if dialogue wasn't hinting at another war just around the corner.. Then I might be a Stormcloak.

They have to rebuild the entire province, train up a professional Military and all the logistics that come with fielding an army far from home. Keeping supply lines open from Skyrim, which in all honesty is a bitch due to treacherous nature of Pale Pass and the pass around Riften is simply too far away, unless you want to spend weeks or months going back and forth depending on the season since you're not marching through the mountains in winter. No point in going independent if you need to rely on the Imperials to keep you supplied. This isn't invading a province right next to you.

Also lacking a navy, merchant vessels won't cut it against the superior Aldmeri ships. Doesn't help there aren't many Battlemages in Skyrim anymore, they play an important asset in naval warfare in TES. It is considered bad luck to have Mages/Battlemages on ships, so the superstitious Nords have two reasons to oppose this idea.

If we had a decade, alright. But, what about months or a couple of years? How do we deal with Thalmor espionage? They won't simply allow us to build a massive force to invade them with, we can't rely on the Blades since they're far more interested in Dragons and don't have a spy network anymore.

If things like this were answered even in the slightest, alright then:

1) How do we get there?
2) How long do we have preparing? The Empire and Dominion have had near three decades, we can't exactly come up with something amazing if we have months to plot strategies and train soldiers.
3) Rebuilding and restocking supplies, the Dragons were a pest, but the war took it's toll.
4) Do we trust Ulfric to lead us to victory, or certain death in the quest for personal glory?
5) If Ulfric were killed, which other Jarl will lead us?
6) What happens if the Empire doesn't let Skyrim go so easily? There is a Legion force gathering inside Cyrodiil to march into Skyrim.

It isn't a simple matter going independent and preparing a massive invasion shortly after. I'm not sure if Ulfric thinks about that, or his words of taking the fight to the Dominion were more boastful than actual fact. Ralof mentions they're tired of fighting the Empire's wars, so is the conflict with the Aldmeri more of an Imperial issue?

As a Stormcloak, we'd have to prepare to fight the Dominion ourselves. If we're just relying on Hammerfell or the Empire to hopefully be able to help us, why did we bother going independent? What happens if Cyrodiil was to fall without Skyrim, besides the economic impact it is also symbolic since Cyrodiil and Skyrim together are the Empire. When the Imperial's Empire collapses, it is a messy affair. The Legions without an Empire or Emperor turn into mercenaries and brigands. Raiding supplies and following some messed up self proclaimed Generals.


Good, good. Hehehe

Use your aggressive feelings, DrunkenMage. Let the hate flow through you.

By now you must know that the Empire can never be saved from the Thalmor. So shall it be with those who still serve it.

You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take the oath and serve Ulfric, it is unavoidable. Strike me down. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more the Dominion 's servant.

In time, you will call the Dominion *master*.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Redguards - They get a pass because Yokuda sank and they had no where else to go. That's survival, I can understand that.

Leave out their hatred of "Lefthanded Elves" whom they battled for thousands of years to near extinction and that hatred of elves lead to the Redguards extermination of Mer colonies in Hammerfell.

You say the Nords and Imperials were being racist and oppressive in their wars against elves, but then say the Redguards get a pass? It is the elves who can't live alongside these other races as equals.

Early tribes of man - That's not the whole story. Those early humans were uncivilized and neither magically or technologically sophisticated compared to the Ayleids.

Yet they made the mistake of being friendly and peaceful when the Aldmer arrived.

The Ayleids had a slave driven economy which actually improved circumstances for man in the long run.

No. The slavery started small and the Nedeic people weren't uncivilized, they had a unique culture of their own. It did not improve circumstances for man, they were tortured for sport. Used more as cattle than anything.

Your very Empire was built upon the foundation the Ayleids set. That is the only reason why you were successful.

No it wasn't. The Cyro-Nords created their own system, the Ayleids weren't involved greatly besides those siding with the slaves. The greatest foundation, and the reason the Empire became so successful is due to the Akaviri reforms. It transformed the Imperial Legions into the professional, and highly organized fighting force it is now.

And given the abuse at the hands of Tiber Septim and friends, you guys have no room to talk... either.

Really? Don't cry victim when you attacked Tiber first. Did you expect the Imperial Empire to take kindly to the Aldmeri Dominion attacking them?

Eye of Magnus - How do you know the Nords weren't trying to keep the Eye for themselves or to just keep in buried? Whose land was the Eye on again?

Because they sealed it away, not wanting to mess with it's power. You see the Nords aren't stupid enough to mess with something they do not understand. The Eye was on the Nords land, that was their city. Also as the Snow Elf in Dawnguard mentions, the Nords claimed Skyrim as their ancestral home. Comes from the belief that Kyne breathed them onto the Throat of the World. Also ties into Aldmer myth of "Altmora" being an Elven Kingdom which the Nords invaded from Skyrim.

Furthermore, that's conjecture, maybe that's why the Snow Elves wanted man gone, maybe not. The truth is usually found somewhere in the middle and there could have been numerous reasons for the Elves wanting the Nords gone. Perhaps the Nords didn't want to leave. History is invariably written by the victors.

Actually it is a logical, given that apparently the Falmer didn't simply invade the city. They knew exactly where to go once inside. It is the most credible theory since the Eye of Magnus is real and was found in the first Nordic city.

Back to you broham. Don't pick a fight by marching an Elven artifact thru the Dominion and enslaving / looting everything in your path and expect everything will turn out alright. That's part of the reason why the Thalmor are so crazy now. Payback is a bitch. ;)

Teaches you for attacking first. Enslaving everything in their path? Where and when were the elves enslaved after their surrender. Tiber Septim may have been a conqueror, but he wasn't cruel as Emperor.

Can you show me where the Thalmor mention that this is their reason? That they're doing all of this because Tiber kicked their ass an Era ago? It isn't revenge, they just believe themselves the rightful rulers of Tamriel.

You get half credit for this ;) The Alessian order put a stop to all of this

Full credit actually, since the Alessian Order was at its height when Ayleids were still acting as mentors and tutors for Colovian nobility.

and because of that, everyone who was left had to get out by any means possible.

No. The Order didn't even need to use violence towards the Ayleids enforcing their doctrine, and it was only the Lords who had their lordships abolished.

And furthermore by knowledgeable friend, let's not forget all the Ayleids who HELPED the Alessians earn their freedom. How were they repaid?

Yet they only "HELPED" the Cyro-Nords when the slave rebellion happened at the time of an Ayleid Civil War. Funny how they weren't helping until it benefited them in defeating the Daedric worshipping Ayleids.

How were they repaid? Hundreds of years keeping their lordships. The Alessian Order were a fanatical religious order that took control over the Empire, you can't say their actions represent the Imperial race. Their rule is considered dark times. This was also thousands of years ago.

The Ayleids had it coming, they were a cruel race when in power.
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
How soon is soon? 5 to 10 years from now? The White-Gold Concordat is very hazardous for the human race, and as a result of it being taken to an effect caused a lot of grief to the people. From kidnappings, massacres, imprisonments that includes violent interrogations, and for what? Worshiping a god that the elves don't like or agree with?


By signing the White-gold Concordat gave the Aldmeri Dominion more power over the people by exploiting the weaken Empire, and this is what pissed off a lot of people. The smart thing that the Empire could of done as an alternative after signing the W.G.C was to sign a treaty with the leaders of Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim giving them full independence for return of allowing them to garrison troops in their countries, and forming a friendly allies with them. Its a win-to-win kind of situation. The people can still worship Talos (The W.G.C would be null and void giving no power to the Thalmor over them) while the Empire still have connections to these 3 countries using the treaty that they've signed to gain independence.

King Torygg would still be alive had this independence taken place. The Stormcloak army would cease to exists, and Ulfric would have no legit reasons to start up a rebellion, and he would not have that much support as a result.

The Emperor did a selfish thing. He took the “ If I'm going down, I'm taking you all with me.” approach. I could never support the Empire when they dangerously lust for power, even risking the lives of their people to maintain such power and authority.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
How soon is soon? 5 to 10 years from now? The White-Gold Concordat is very hazardous for the human race, and as a result of it being taken to an effect caused a lot of grief to the people. From kidnappings, massacres, imprisonments that includes violent interrogations, and for what? Worshiping a god that the elves don't like or agree with?


By signing the White-gold Concordat gave the Aldmeri Dominion more power over the people by exploiting the weaken Empire, and this is what pissed off a lot of people. The smart thing that the Empire could of done as an alternative after signing the W.G.C was to sign a treaty with the leaders of Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim giving them full independence for return of allowing them to garrison troops in their countries, and forming a friendly allies with them. Its a win-to-win kind of situation. The people can still worship Talos (The W.G.C would be null and void giving no power to the Thalmor over them) while the Empire still have connections to these 3 countries using the treaty that they've signed to gain independence.

King Torygg would still be alive had this independence taken place. The Stormcloak army would cease to exists, and Ulfric would have no legit reasons to start up a rebellion, and he would not have that much support as a result.

The Emperor did a selfish thing. He took the “ If I'm going down, I'm taking you all with me.” approach. I could never support the Empire when they dangerously lust for power, even risking the lives of their people to maintain such power and authority.


Yes it is. I like this. The WGC is Toxic for you people. lol

I also agree with your pre WGC solution. Just let everyone take care of themselves for a while and let Cyrodil uphold the WGC because let's face it, they don't care.

However, I think that bit about High King Torygg is wrong and the Emperor being selfish. There's obviously so much more going on there, you can't just explain away with personal bias.

Or I guess you could but not if you want to understand *their true motivations*. You're going to have to set your feelings aside Raijin and understand where they're coming from. Just because they're Imperials doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

Of course, they're all dead anyways, Stormers and Imps so it doesn't really matter. ;)
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
The Emperor did a selfish thing. He took the “ If I'm going down, I'm taking you all with me.” approach. I could never support the Empire when they dangerously lust for power, even risking the lives of their people to maintain such power and authority.

Isn't it the same thing as with Ulfric? Ulfric wants to be the next High King but wants to wait until it is guaranteed that he will win, as he does not want people questioning him to be in charge of anything. It is why he killed Torygg, because as long as he was alive, he would never be the High King.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Yes it is. I like this. The WGC is Toxic for you people. lol

I also agree with your pre WGC solution. Just let everyone take care of themselves for a while and let Cyrodil uphold the WGC because let's face it, they don't care.

However, I think that bit about High King Torygg is wrong and the Emperor being selfish. There's obviously so much more going on there, you can't just explain away with personal bias.

Or I guess you could but not if you want to understand *their true motivations*. You're going to have to set your feelings aside Raijin and understand where they're coming from. Just because they're Imperials doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

Of course, they're all dead anyways, Stormers and Imps so it doesn't really matter. ;)

To be honest with you I don't give a plops what goes on in Cryodill. Yeah you heard me. I don't care. The Dunmers and Nords from Solstheim are doing pretty damn good without the Empires assistance, and so could Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock if they put enough ambition into the effort of being independent.

Titus Mede II has nearly destroyed the Empire that even a member of the elders counsel hired a group of assassins in Skyrim to take the old bastard out.

The only way for the Empire to fully recover is if the Nords take charge.

Isn't it the same thing as with Ulfric? Ulfric wants to be the next High King but wants to wait until it is guaranteed that he will win, as he does not want people questioning him to be in charge of anything. It is why he killed Torygg, because as long as he was alive, he would never be the High King.

Ulfric Killed Torygg because he was an obnoxious King who kept on preaching about the Empire this and Empire that. He had no intentions of breaking from from his Imperial shackles for as long as the Emperor kept on sending him crates full of gold, and other goodies. He didn't give a plops about his people other than to entertain his queen. He's nothing more but a Paris Hilton wannabe.

Ulfric wanting to have the mantle of being High King does not make him selfish.

Oh and since the Empire has zero respect for culture other than their own... yes Ulfric would never obtain the status of King because the Nordic traditions means nothing to the Empire.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Yes it is. I like this. The WGC is Toxic for you people. lol

I also agree with your pre WGC solution. Just let everyone take care of themselves for a while and let Cyrodil uphold the WGC because let's face it, they don't care.

However, I think that bit about High King Torygg is wrong and the Emperor being selfish. There's obviously so much more going on there, you can't just explain away with personal bias.

Or I guess you could but not if you want to understand *their true motivations*. You're going to have to set your feelings aside Raijin and understand where they're coming from. Just because they're Imperials doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

Of course, they're all dead anyways, Stormers and Imps so it doesn't really matter. ;)

To be honest with you I don't give a pl*** what goes on in Cryodill. Yeah you heard me. I don't care. The Dunmers and Nords from Solstheim are doing pretty damn good without the Empires assistance, and so could Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock if they put enough ambition into the effort of being independent.

Incorrect. By the time the Dragonborn arrives on the Island, every single person on there has become a slave to Miraak's power. They either weren't aware of it, or were so entranced they didn't snap out of it. Even Neloth's memory was affected by Miraak, and he's a Telvanni Wizard. That says much about him. The ebony mine is dried up, untouchable due to the Dragon Priest in there leaving Raven Rock poor. The Nords of Solsthiem are not the same Nords of Skyrim. Different beliefs entirely similar to that of valenwood, to be one with nature. If it wasn't for the Dragonborn, Solsthiem would be Miraak's Kingdom by now.

And that's not even discussing the Ash spawn, undead and werebears roaming all over the small island.
 

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