Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
A battlemage is a soldier-scholar, not just someone who studies destruction. A mage who studies destruction, but not any soldier/warrior skills is not a battlemage, because he does not train any soldier skills.

A Battlemage, is still a Mage. They study destruction and use it for war, what a Mage does with their skills doesn't make them more or less a Mage.

Thief who uses a sword, is he less of a thief because he doesn't use a dagger? What about an Assassin with a two handed weapon, is he not really an assassin? What about the Mages in Oblivion who all carry daggers? Are they not true Mages anymore?
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
A battlemage is a soldier-scholar, not just someone who studies destruction. A mage who studies destruction, but not any soldier/warrior skills is not a battlemage, because he does not train any soldier skills.

A Battlemage, is still a Mage. They study destruction and use it for war, what a Mage does with their skills doesn't make them more or less a Mage.

Thief who uses a sword, is he less of a thief because he doesn't use a dagger? What about an Assassin with a two handed weapon, is he not really an assassin? What about the Mages in Oblivion who all carry daggers? Are they not true Mages anymore?

If a thief uses a sword AS A LAST RESORT, it does not matter. Just using magic does not label someone a mage. A battlemage is a MAGIC-USER, which is the umbrella term.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
We'll play your game, mage. All characters who use magic are mages, no matter what their true skillset or spec.

A crusader? Not a crusader, but a mage.
A nightblade? also a mage
A witch hunter? a mage.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Just using magic does not label someone a mage. A battlemage is a MAGIC-USER, which is the umbrella term.

Shoot me now.

What labels someone as a Mage, since using magic doesn't make a Mage?

You said a that a battlemage is a mage, despite not focusing SOLELY on magic. Battlemages are warrior-"Mages", but the master mages are the true mages, and the ones that focus solely on the art of magic.

So, if a battlemage is a true mage, then all others using magic in their repetoir are true mages, and as such, only a pure warrior, thief, or assassin is not a mage.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
We'll play your game, mage. All characters who use magic are mages, no matter what their true skillset or spec.

A crusader? Not a crusader, but a mage.
A nightblade? also a mage
A witch hunter? a mage.

Those are titles or what someone does for a living. Classes are just pre selected skills, in Tamriel (Looking at it as a real world) people don't do things based on a class.

A Crusader is merely someone who campaigns for political, religious or social change. A Nightblade can be used as an Assassin, evident by one of the theories of Talos. Does that mean all Assassins are Nightblades? An Assassin is someone who kills a target.

A Witch Hunter, doesn't even need to be a magic using person.

When people call Nords barbarians, are they talking about culture or about a god damn class?
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
We'll play your game, mage. All characters who use magic are mages, no matter what their true skillset or spec.

A crusader? Not a crusader, but a mage.
A nightblade? also a mage
A witch hunter? a mage.

Those are titles or what someone does for a living. Classes are just pre selected skills, in Tamriel (Looking at it as a real world) people don't do things based on a class.

A Crusader is merely someone who campaigns for political, religious or social change. A Nightblade can be used as an Assassin, evident by one of the theories of Talos. Does that mean all Assassins are Nightblades? An Assassin is someone who kills a target.

A Witch Hunter, doesn't even need to be a magic using person.

When people call Nords barbarians, are they talking about culture or about a god damn class?

And I was talking about a PURE mage. battlemage is a "mage" true, but I would hardly label them as a mage, in the same vein as a pure mage. Same thing as with a warrior or thief. A hybrid is a hybrid, not a pure one.

A crusader is a mage who just put more focus on melee rather than magic, as it is not a political anything.

A nightblade is a mage who focuses their magical powers on illusion.

Likely a Witchhunter has some training in alteration magic to better protect against magic. making them a mage.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You said a that a battlemage is a mage, despite not focusing SOLELY on magic. Battlemages are warrior-"Mages", but the master mages are the true mages, and the ones that focus solely on the art of magic.

So, if a battlemage is a true mage, then all others using magic in their repetoir are true mages, and as such, only a pure warrior, thief, or assassin is not a mage.

A Mage just means learned person. There have been Masters of Destruction who were Battlemages, are they suddenly not really Mages?

You're thinking in two dimensions. That you're only a Mage if you just study magic and nothing else. In Skyrim you're called a Mage by simply being part of the College of Winterhold.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
You said a that a battlemage is a mage, despite not focusing SOLELY on magic. Battlemages are warrior-"Mages", but the master mages are the true mages, and the ones that focus solely on the art of magic.

So, if a battlemage is a true mage, then all others using magic in their repetoir are true mages, and as such, only a pure warrior, thief, or assassin is not a mage.

A Mage just means learned person. There have been Masters of Destruction who were Battlemages, are they suddenly not really Mages?

You're thinking in two dimensions. That you're only a Mage if you just study magic and nothing else. In Skyrim you're called a Mage by simply being part of the College of Winterhold.

Are you also a mage when you use magic without much focus? By your definition, yes.

From now on EVERYONE IS A MAGE. A WARRIOR IS A MAGE IN THE WAYS OF WAR. AN ASSASSIN IS A MAGE IN THE WAYS OF STEALTH AND MURDER.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
For "mage" in my "plan" thingy, think "scholar".

From now on, the phrase spellcasting scholar is replacing the word mage which means pure focus on magic.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Are you also a mage when you use magic without much focus? By your definition, yes.

Battlemages give magic huge focus? They're often experts or masters in destruction. This stems from your idea about real Mages don't get jobs or fight wars/get involved in politics.

From now on EVERYONE IS A MAGE. A WARRIOR IS A MAGE IN THE WAYS OF WAR. AN ASSASSIN IS A MAGE IN THE WAYS OF STEALTH AND MURDER.

By the dictionary, I suppose. Fantasy terms, a Mage is simply someone who uses and practices forms of magic.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Are you also a mage when you use magic without much focus? By your definition, yes.

Battlemages give magic huge focus? They're often experts or masters in destruction. This stems from your idea about real Mages don't get jobs or fight wars/get involved in politics.

From now on EVERYONE IS A MAGE. A WARRIOR IS A MAGE IN THE WAYS OF WAR. AN ASSASSIN IS A MAGE IN THE WAYS OF STEALTH AND MURDER.

By the dictionary, I suppose. Fantasy terms, a Mage is simply someone who uses and practices forms of magic.

Read this:

For "mage" in my "plan" thingy, think "scholar".

From now on, the phrase spellcasting scholar is replacing the word mage which means pure focus on magic.

In fact, I am going to start calling pure mages arcanists, because they are masters of all forms of the arcane.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
For "mage" in my "plan" thingy, think "scholar".

From now on, the phrase spellcasting scholar is replacing the word mage which means pure focus on magic.

The profession doesn't mean you'll fight in a war. You can be a Mage and have no reason to be involved, preferring your own research/considering such politics beneath you.

Same way as your Big Nord Warrior could have no desire to fight in the war, i.e The Companions; who view the Civil War to be petty and without any honor to be gained.

But, one can't really say that "All warriors would join the war, all Mages wouldn't!"

You see farmers going off to join either side, you also see farmers who have no desire and wish the war stays away.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Do you honestly believe that the Empire can protect those against the Thalmor when they can't even protect themselves?

The Empire did protect itself, and managed to survive the onslaught of the Great War.

The Empire did the best they could, with what they had. They were unprepared and hit extremely hard. The Aldmeri brought the hammer down, sparing everything it could into overthrowing the Empire. Just as the Empire threw all it could to recapture the Imperial City, because they would lose the war if they didn't.

The White-Gold Concordat was going to happen, one way or another. It could either be a poorly enforced treaty to allow the Empire to rebuild, or it could be doctrine enforced by the Dominion's Military where there wouldn't be this prancing about arresting a Nord here and there. It would just be ethnic cleansing on a scale like Valenwood, moreso since mankind is inferior. At the moment, the only current threat to the Aldmeri Dominion is the Empire's forces on their border.

Corrupt, cruel and morally questionable at times the Empire can be, but the Imperials have the habit of being able to conquer lands repeatedly. They are by far the most successful race in terms of being able to crush their enemies, even when you think they're beaten they suddenly surprise you (Like Mede retaking the Imperial City).

Don't underestimate the Empire, the Aldmeri Dominion have done that twice and it cost them dearly. You may think they're weak and done, but they're like cockroaches, you think it's dead. But it'll be moving again in ten minutes.

Though for all we know the Stormcloak Rebellion could have lasting effects and sets events in motion which sees Empire fall. Be interesting to see the Aldmeri Dominion ruling Tamriel, where the player hero works to destroy them.

The Thalmor are currently winning, they were able to play the Empire and Stormcloaks into fighting a war. Making each side believe they're working for the benefit of the Thalmor. It honestly doesn't matter who wins the Civil War, so long as one wins.

Neither side is actually a benefit to the Thalmor. The Thalmor only gain if no side claims victory.

If you feel you're against the Empire because they're a benefit to the Thalmor, they destroy that when they say it harms their overall position. If you're against the Stormcloaks simply because you think it helps the Thalmor, they don't want them to win either.
 
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Lewsean

Member
A battlemage is a soldier-scholar, not just someone who studies destruction. A mage who studies destruction, but not any soldier/warrior skills is not a battlemage, because he does not train any soldier skills.

A Battlemage, is still a Mage. They study destruction and use it for war, what a Mage does with their skills doesn't make them more or less a Mage.

Thief who uses a sword, is he less of a thief because he doesn't use a dagger? What about an Assassin with a two handed weapon, is he not really an assassin? What about the Mages in Oblivion who all carry daggers? Are they not true Mages anymore?

If a thief uses a sword AS A LAST RESORT, it does not matter. Just using magic does not label someone a mage. A battlemage is a MAGIC-USER, which is the umbrella term.
But a battlemage doesn't use magic/weaponry as a last resort now do they? They use both in tandem with mastery.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
For "mage" in my "plan" thingy, think "scholar".

From now on, the phrase spellcasting scholar is replacing the word mage which means pure focus on magic.

The profession doesn't mean you'll fight in a war. You can be a Mage and have no reason to be involved, preferring your own research/considering such politics beneath you.

Same way as your Big Nord Warrior could have no desire to fight in the war, i.e The Companions; who view the Civil War to be petty and without any honor to be gained.

But, one can't really say that "All warriors would join the war, all Mages wouldn't!"

You see farmers going off to join either side, you also see farmers who have no desire and wish the war stays away.

A mage is just a name for someone with magical abilities. And I am using arcanist. A battlemage is a mage, an arcanist is a mage, everyone who uses magic is a mage.
 

Lewsean

Member
Do you honestly believe that the Empire can protect those against the Thalmor when they can't even protect themselves?

The Empire did protect itself, and managed to survive the onslaught of the Great War.

The Empire did the best they could, with what they had. They were unprepared and hit extremely hard. The Aldmeri brought the hammer down, sparing everything it could into overthrowing the Empire. Just as the Empire threw all it could to recapture the Imperial City, because they would lose the war if they didn't.

The White-Gold Concordat was going to happen, one way or another. It could either be a poorly enforced treaty to allow the Empire to rebuild, or it could be doctrine enforced by the Dominion's Military where there wouldn't be this prancing about arresting a Nord here and there. It would just be ethnic cleansing on a scale like Valenwood, moreso since mankind is inferior. At the moment, the only current threat to the Aldmeri Dominion is the Empire's forces on their border.

Corrupt, cruel and morally questionable at times the Empire can be, but the Imperials have the habit of being able to conquer lands repeatedly. They are by far the most successful race in terms of being able to crush their enemies, even when you think they're beaten they suddenly surprise you (Like Mede retaking the Imperial City).

Don't underestimate the Empire, the Aldmeri Dominion have done that twice and it cost them dearly. You may think they're weak and done, but they're like cockroaches, you think it's dead. But it'll be moving again in ten minutes.

Though for all we know the Stormcloak Rebellion could have lasting effects and sets events in motion which sees Empire fall. Be interesting to see the Aldmeri Dominion ruling Tamriel, where the player hero works to destroy them.

The Thalmor are currently winning, they were able to play the Empire and Stormcloaks into fighting a war. Making each side believe they're working for the benefit of the Thalmor. It honestly doesn't matter who wins the Civil War, so long as one wins.

Neither side is actually a benefit to the Thalmor. The Thalmor only gain if no side claims victory.

If you feel you're against the Empire because they're a benefit to the Thalmor, they destroy that when they say it harms their overall position. If you're against the Stormcloaks simply because you think it helps the Thalmor, they don't want them to win either.
I still feel the threat of the Dominion is over-rated. Over a century worth of planning for a surprise attack and they failed, not a chance in hell will they succeed when everybody is ready for them. This bending over and taking it up the ass that the Empire feels is 'needed', really isn't. You have your enemy by the balls, re-taken the IC, they're all of a sudden desperate to negotiate, and the Empire does it.. Such a mistake, if your enemy is on the ropes you go at them hard, you don't back away and give them time to recuperate. The Empire played right into their hands in signing the WGC, which like you said, was obviously just created to cause tension between Skyrim, the Empire's last great ally, and the Empire.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I doubt anyone can protect people from the Thalmor, not unless the Empire destroys the Aldmeri Dominion. Morrowind isn't perfect, Malborn just mentions it will be as safe as anywhere.

The Thalmor have been "barging" into the Empire for well over a hundred years, Raijin. Do you honestly believe a bunch of militia (Legion or Stormcloaks) are going to be skilled enough to know who is or isn't a Thalmor? Not every Thalmor walks around in their Nazi outfit. They have eyes and ears all over the place. "No, you can't ever be too paranoid where the Thalmor is concerned." - Malborn

When have the Thalmor ever cared for jurisdiction? You think they'll be "Oh, we don't have official authority... Guess we'll move on."

And what makes you believe that the Empire is the only faction that can totally destroy the Aldmeri Dominion? The concept of the Nords being weary of outsiders is evident enough that they can spot a potential troublemaker. I've read so much bullplops about how much Ulfric is a racist from the Anti Ulfric crowd, but can his xenophobia towards elves be an actual benefit to detect spies? Look at Rolff and his former Stormcloak friend. Accusing the Dark elf woman of being an Imperial spy, and that they were going to round up some men to interrogate her. Rolff and his friend aren't that far off considering the fact that theirs an Imperial Legion Shrine on the second floor from their Tavern in the Grey quarters.

The Thalmor may have eyes and ears all over the place... but so do the Stormcloaks from their loyal citizens, and I hope to Talos that so does the Empire... although I have doubts the Empire is considering the fact that they do not want to upset the Thalmor too much that can null and void the WGC agreement.

The Empire is terrified of the Thalmor.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
No one can destroy the Dominion unless they do something to destroy themselves.

Your arguments are all in vein, the Aldmeri will once again reclaim their rightful place as the rulers of Tamriel.

You cannot hide behind the Empire or Skyrim. All will fall, one century at a time.

900+ pages answered in one post. You can all thank me later.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
Notice how they leave.

Probably ran off to prepare to bust Ulfric free, as implied with their documents you find in their embassy.

Doorman couldn't kill someone by shouting, or send masses flying off city walls.

True, but I still think Ulfric deserved a bit of a trial before killing him off. Even if its just for show.

Bet they tried.

Everyone tries to control someone else. That's why there is Islam in Europe, Christianity in Scandinavia, and Judaism in Israel.

I never claim to be always right, I make mistakes all the time. Everyone else seems to take my word for gospel, and try make out I know everything. Never once claimed I do, nor do I promote such.

Clearly, you need to get over it.

Then maybe you should note disclaimers. Another Imperial backer in this thread quoted you by name, though the quote itself was relatively vague.

However, I do retract my statement with a minor apology. It's not you who claims you are right, no. Rather, the abundance of which you claim. All this time to pass, and here you are, commenting more than anyone else (Raijin included). It isn't hard to think that someone defending a position so fervently would know what he's talking about, thus an illusion of abundant knowledge is made through an ironic ignorance, be the ignorance concerning the side you defend, the reason you defend, or you yourself. Just something to think about.

What if a religion allows murder, is that not oppressive of their religious beliefs? What if violence is accepted and indeed encouraged by a religion, and laws oppress that.

Is there truly freedom of anything except dying?

Does Worshiping Talos condone murder? If you murder someone in Stormcloak Riften, is it still not a crime?

Aren't we all.

You know, I agree with this short statement. Relatively off topic, but in a sense we are all heretics or heathens to someone.

Fair point, I concede.

Well, that's no fun. :c

He wasn't even worshiped much until Warp in the West. Was still Eight Divines in Daggerfall's time.

I'll admit, I didn't know too much about this (but I haven't played ES Classic, much).

Did people not fight for their beliefs during the Great War? Not fight for their homes or families?

Just because the White-Gold Concordat was signed, doesn't mean they fought and died for nothing. Made a stand for their way of life, and had to make changes after nearly being destroyed.

Not that I should help mention this, but you could also cite the resistance in Cyrodiil during the occupation. It was referenced in-game during the Dark Brotherhood Wedding Murder Quest.

Ignoring that, I don't know if they fought and died for nothing... Just they fought and died for not as much as they did.

Ulfric's had years, maybe twenty or at least ten. Doubt he was in jail for decades.

Gotta wonder what was happening during this time. If absolutely nothing, (which, admittedly, is easier to believe than any theory we can coin up), then maybe hate and anger was just bubbling and was held. It also wouldn't hurt to mention that Islod probably did a good job as High King, so he wouldn't have gotten much support anyways.

So, maybe he was just waiting, as boring as that is.

They're still largely independent, they swear fealty to Skyrim's High King. Did Ulfric need Istlod or Torygg to help he and his father rule Eastmarch?

Fair enough. Still, they could always make appeals, not that there would be much they could appeal for. And, as always, part of their taxes would go to Solitude, being part of that fealty of course.

Besides political matters, Skyrim generally runs itself. Maybe you settle a matter between two Jarls, but I doubt there is much more too it. Unless you're the High King's of Old leading wars and conquests, then your reign is near Torygg's length.

How long did Torygg rule, exactly?

Better to be Emperor than High King, however they're both dying quickly.

Aren't politics fun?

Why? They're only recently stirring up problems in Skyrim majorly, the Empire wouldn't recall it's Legions to the Dominion's border if they couldn't threaten them. Imperials rarely bluff in those situations, and with dialogue pointing towards another war.

Exactly. The men are locally recruited and trained (though there are some Imperials in the legion, but I think they joined SPECIFICALLY from Cyrodiil to help the Empire). Thus, all the men who are fighting now are fighting as soldiers who wouldn't be part of the initial legions. So in a way, the trouble the Aldmeri Dominion are stirring isn't too significant at all.

The Empire hadn't surrendered in two eras, they've lost a couple of times, or have survived at a high price.

Against who?

I accept he is a God, as do many within the Empire still do. If he truly is the God of Mankind and the greatest hero of the Empire, he can take a hit for the team while the Empire rebuilds.

If I recall, Talos wasn't exactly the kindest of Conqueror Kings. Infact, he was sort of a douchebag. Skyrim doesn't seem to have a lot of science. So, whenever something happens they blame magic or themselves for angering the gods. Why'd the dragons come back. CLEARLY because we stopped worshipping Talos, of course.

I don't buy into it, but a lot of people (in Skyrim) would and do. Gods don't take hits, they take offense.

The main Aldmeri Army in Cyrodiil was defeated, we have a second main army controlling southern Hammerfell and perhaps some Aldmeri forces still within Cyrodiil/borders of Valenwood.

You claim he didn't have to give into the demands, but the Imperial Army was extremely weakened and was unable to even keep order in the years of peace that followed.

Say the Imperials said no to peace, Southern Hammerfell is occupied so soldiers need to go there and you leave Cyrodiil still weak. Now while your forces fight in Hammerfell, we'd see the border skirmishes we saw during the Tiber Wars. The Empire was running out of time, the Aldmeri could sustain war for at least five more years.

Take into account the bandits, the fallen cities which have lost all form of law and order, Skyrim lost Markarth with no one to take it back (Ulfric being in Cyrodiil or Hammerfell with the war still on).

You have that smaller secondary Aldmeri force still within Cyrodiil somewhere. Cyrodiil is in ruins, the farms left abandoned. Wayrest gets sacked and captured by pirates.

If I recall, doesn't the Aldmeri Dominion eventually give in to the Redguard with the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai? We don't know what military engagements the Aldmeri had to deal with, apart with Hammerfell. But, if they were able to beat them out, then that means something was up. They know how to play they cards, they know how to bluff, how to maintain a cool complexion when their hair is on fire. Their greatest advantage against the Empire is that the Empire doesn't know plops about the Aldmeri. All we know is what they had and what wasn't reinforced. After the Imperial City was retaken, there were no reports of more troops crossing the borders.

Maybe that victory put them on the defensive. *shrug*

How can we learn if we don't take all things into account?

Every action has a reaction. Hypothetical reasoning is difficult to manage.

Tullius catching on to their plans? Logical speculation, the Thalmor do have assets of other races, even Nords. It screams a little more than coincidence, doubt Ulfric is sensing danger through the force.

Or luck. Some people are just unfortunately lucky, look at the many assassination attempts on Hitler.

Tullius is spending Hold funds on the war, even taxing ships. The Stormcloaks aren't exactly charging for their services, and Ulfric is Jarl of a city with two shipping companies.

Don't forget to mention that one of those Shipping Companies belongs to the Empire.

Oh no, their problems will probably last years. Skyrim doesn't remain united for very long.

When placing your on guy on the Jarl's throne, you're bound to have some support.

So you say they could have. You can win the battle, but still lose the war. Judging by the issues that rose during peace time, the Empire was in bad shape for years.

What was there to fight at the truce? Doubt the Empire would have lasted long if they waited. Doubt the Aldmeri would have accepted anything unless Talos was banned, and they already controlled Southern Hammerfell, the Blades were basically wiped out anyway.

Not asking them to win the war, asking for a White Peace, where its a relative draw, would suffice enough.

He is wounded and bleeding on the floor.

Not at the beginning. Rikke says he wants to surrender and that she still wants to fight. Tullius joins her, but probably because his Strategist Mind comes to the conclusion that 3vs2 is better than 3vs1. Then, he falls over saying he's not the enemy and is reminded that he isn't the good guy, either.

Truthfully, I think Ulfric should have spared Tullius. Sent him back with a demand of recognized sovereignty. It'd also help the Empire with their next war (assuming it comes in this lifetime) so Ulfric won't have to worry about Aldmeri looking at their borders. But, as we already know, he doesn't have a strategist's mind. He's rash, impulsive, and aims for a better story.

Makes you wonder when fighting in the Civil War, why in the sieges gates are unlocked.

Probably for mechanics reasons. Whiterun was the only city to have a defensive position, which was a drawgate. Unfortunately, that was easy to open. If they wanted to COMPLETELY recreate a medieval siege situation, the walls would have been taller, the population of the soldiers would have been more plentiful, the siege equipment would have been closer, and the Stormcloaks would have had a battering ram to follow. Or mages to explode the doors open or something.

Why not? Isn't the first time the Thu'um has smashed open gates during a siege. Hardly a stupid point. Even if he didn't smash open the gates with a shout, he was sending the defenders flying from the walls, could easily bring up a ram.

People aren't bolted to the walls and the doors weigh tons rather than pounds. Fus Ro Dah is useful, but only against human opponents.

Not at all, I don't know everything there is. Hell, I found a Dwemer ruin I never knew about recently... So.

More often curious.

Fair enough. I recall the voice actor but I can't remember which actual character it was.

Galmar is placed in charge of half of Skyrim...

I doubt that half is the one with Windhelm in it. I also don't think he'd have much control over the half he controls, not with the Jarls being placed on thrones. Its more a reminder of what side they're on, I'd imagine.

Not at all, while I do dislike the Dunmer, two wrongs don't make a right.

Wait, wait, wait. How can you dislike Dunmer? They're the only Elves that are tolerable.

He doesn't, but a large number of his supporters are against outsiders, but he has guards who would see these things.

The guard can be easily corrupted anywhere. If they agree with the agitations, then they'd hardly report it. Its not worthwhile, especially with a killer on the loose targeting NORD women. Nord Women have priority over what Galmar's Brother is doing, usually while drunk.

Not at all, but I would expect him to know how the more known members of his cities behave, he has some informants, and city guards.

The idiot Jarl of Falkreath knows how one of his citizens feel about the Stormcloaks. Ulfric doesn't know how his best friends brother is?

He doesn't have to know, as Galmar's brother is a loyal member of the Stormcloaks. Its not a threat to Ulfric or his rule.

Yes, kick out the EETC. I'm sure that will work out well.

They're headquarters in Skyrim is Solitude, the Imperial Hub. The EETC would be funding the enemy war effort.

Or maybe Legion armor is good to use? I wouldn't trust the EETC either, they're like the Weyland-Yutani of Tamriel.

Back in Morrowind, the EETC didn't always equip their fighters in Imperial Armor. Its reliable, don't get me wrong, and I feel rather attractive to some, it just isn't good for business unless you have a little marking saying "Hey, I'm not with the Legion, this is EETC stuff right here".

Maybe Imperials are meant to win then.

Nonsense, no one is meant to win.

Least Motierre was smart enough to send a double to reward you. Maybe he will do the Empire good.

He was a double? :eek:

Stormcloaks support a pre-Treaty Empire. So if you only hate the Empire for their actions of the last twenty six years, then you're good.

Wait, so I can't hate both?

Oh please, everything you do is a grasp. "Well uh spain!" "President this!" "Ottomans!" How about you actually stick to TES? It isn't that fluffing hard, there isn't this lacking of valid points against the Empire, they've been in every single game.

I don't need to make the game, to understand why we don't know every single detail. You want to call out my posts as a straw grasp, but you're here preaching the Jarls are peasants because we don't know every single past ruler by name.

See, I'm starting to suspect you dislike Spain.

Strangely enough, the examples you've provided weren't mentioned too much. You should have said "Well, uh, Romans!" and "But, Caesar!" as I've referenced them the most. Pretty sure that when I mentioned Spain, it was in the same post as the Ottomans.

Ignoring that, I feel its good to reference historical figures more than the actual nations they were a part of. Afterall, its what they did as an individual that lead their nations and what was often overlooked. See a similarity, point it out.

Ignoring that, I still call shenanigans on Jarls. In the grand scope of things, they aren't as important as Emperors or High Kings. They're local monarchs, but any say they have in something the Empire dictates is moot.

There is no neutrality. You're either a Stormcloak, or a traitor.

Maybe that's to deter Jarls from doing their own thing. *shrug*

They sent the Imperial Legion? No, they sent Tullius. Pretty sure? Then why does Elisif's steward leave her fate undecided?

She may be Queen, she may not.

Pretty sure I've mentioned before that they sent Tullius her way. An army a sheep lead by a lion is more dangerous than an army of lions lead by a sheep.

Never said that.

So, then do you think that without Tullius in Solitude Ulfric would still lose?

Majority of what they do is still in the shadows. No, they can't walk around with a sign over their heads.

Might as well. You run into a LOT of them, most of the time they aren't even looking for you.

They won't ignore Skyrim. The Empire wouldn't really be on their feet if Skyrim breaks away, cutting off High Rock. Taking two thirds of resources that can be used for the war, good soldiers and leaders lost on both sides.

You said Hammerfell is still friendly with the Imperials. Why can't they go through there? Skyrim isn't that important.

I honestly do not care what people think, obviously it is something that upsets you Stormcloaks. Because you lot keep bringing up "This is supposed to be your thread" "Aren't you supposed to be the lore master?"

I'll say it again, get the over what people say. I never claim to be 100% right, you can take what I say or disagree.

Oh, that modesty. Again, with someone who has been defending this side for so long (I even had to take breaks now and then with real life), its hard not to see your overall interest in this thread. Didn't think I'd enter this thread, call it pointless, and not end up debating you for some random reason.

I can argue for the Stormcloaks, just as easily as I would the Empire. I'm not that biased.

I'm tired of this debate... You're a good debater, and I can't be bothered anymore. So you win, I'm out of arguments. I'm done with it.

Nonsense, I'm not in this for the debate. I'm not even in this for the Stormcloaks.

I'm in it, simply to be in it.

Besides, you can't just leave the thread, never to respond again. There are many things you see and disagree with. Afterall, I had a nice short vacation before coming back and I saw you made a response or two after this post. I suspect you're not in this for the debate either, nor for the Imperials at this point. Just like me, you're in it... because you're in it.

What a blessed eternity, eh, Dear Mage? ;)
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I still feel the threat of the Dominion is over-rated. Over a century worth of planning for a surprise attack and they failed, not a chance in hell will they succeed when everybody is ready for them. This bending over and taking it up the ass that the Empire feels is 'needed', really isn't. You have your enemy by the balls, re-taken the IC, they're all of a sudden desperate to negotiate, and the Empire does it.. Such a mistake, if your enemy is on the ropes you go at them hard, you don't back away and give them time to recuperate. The Empire played right into their hands in signing the WGC, which like you said, was obviously just created to cause tension between Skyrim, the Empire's last great ally, and the Empire.

I don't think the threat they pose is overrated, they weren't planning on destroying the Empire completely at first remember? Their original goal was just Hammerfell, but they made a gamble during the war to wipe out Cyrodiil too.

The Empire retook the Imperial City, but we still got our ass kicked for the most part. Their invasion gave the Empire a good boot to get them to refocus, and the Stormcloak Rebellion/death of Titus II could also be the action that sets the Empire into motion of war.

There is always the chance we fail, and the Dominion wins.

And what makes you believe that the Empire is the only faction that can totally destroy the Aldmeri Dominion?

Currently they're the only faction with an army on the Dominion's border. The Stormcloaks have to rebuild after the Civil War, establish their governments and create brand new armies.

The concept of the Nords being weary of outsiders is evident enough that they can spot a potential troublemaker. I've read so much bullpl*** about how much Ulfric is a racist from the Anti Ulfric crowd, but can his xenophobia towards elves be an actual benefit to detect spies? Look at Rolff and his former Stormcloak friend. Accusing the Dark elf woman of being an Imperial spy, and that they were going to round up some men to interrogate her. Rolff and his friend aren't that far off considering the fact that theirs an Imperial Legion Shrine on the second floor from their Tavern in the Grey quarters.

Half of Cyrodiil are weary of outsiders too, doesn't stop the Thalmor. What would be a troublemaker? They can appear as a fragile old man, a sexy mistress etc.

They don't just use elves, they have assets and spies of all races. Even humans. During the novels there wasn't even an Elven Thalmor spy ever mentioned. The Thalmor aren't stupid, and it doesn't matter which race you are. You find Thalmor sympathizers with Nords, and they do indeed have a Nord working for them. Most likely they will have more.

Besides the spies, they fund bandits and other insurgents. Bandits are a problem, but with Thalmor backing they're a threat.

The Thalmor may have eyes and ears all over the place... but so do the Stormcloaks from their loyal citizens, and I hope to Talos that so does the Empire... although I have doubts the Empire is considering the fact that they do not want to upset the Thalmor too much that can null and void the WGC agreement.

Your common citizens aren't always the best spies, they might be good to spot Military activity... But the Thalmor are quite clever in how they work. Rimfaxe posted part of the novels awhile ago, which showed an old man working for the Thalmor.

Empire has spies, even has spies watching the Thalmor. The Thalmor and Imperials have been fighting a war behind the scenes for a long time between their agents. It isn't that the Empire doesn't want to upset the Thalmor, both sides hate each other to the extreme. How they act openly, is very different to what they do on the espionage level.

Imperial spies are everywhere. Never forget that... - Ulfric

Just because they're currently at peace, doesn't stop espionage activities. Penitus Oculatus and the Thalmor have been working against each other since the days of Titus Mede (The First).

If the Imperials kill a Thalmor spy, or informant. The Thalmor can't do much about it, they're not exactly going to cry "You just killed our secret spy!" because admitting it would be stupid. Same thing if the Thalmor kill an Imperial spy, Empire won't come out and cry about it.

The Empire is terrified of the Thalmor.

They're not terrified of the Thalmor, but they understand the threat. Though Ulfric is the same "What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores."

Tullius won't risk the treaty without cause, he's a Military General and follows his orders. Until his orders are kill the Thalmor, he just bites his lip and tries to do his best to keep cool. He hates them with a passion though. At the end of the Imperial victory, he confides within you "What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?"

If Tullius has the upperhand he'll tell the Thalmor to piss off, like Helgen. It is why I believe should the Imperials win the war, the Thalmor won't have as much freedom they do while the war is on.
 
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Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
What? You ignoring me now? :c
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
It doesn't matter too much who wins, Raijin. Stormcloaks and Imperials aren't that much different, they both want the same things. To take the fight to the true enemy.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
It doesn't matter too much who wins, Raijin. Stormcloaks and Imperials aren't that much different, they both want the same things. To take the fight to the true enemy.

This. The Imperials are just doing things a different, more long-term way.
 

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