Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Not at all, but there would be those that are. All of Windhelm's guards won't even go near the Arentino (sp?) house, Morthal's guards won't investigate the house fire.

According to dialogue by both pro Stormcloak and pro Imperial, the soldiers/guards were chasing after Ulfric and he had escaped with the aid of Roggvir.


Interesting read, yet still explainable.

Roggvir knew exactly what he was doing.

"There was no murder! Ulfric challenged Torygg. He beat the High King in fair combat."

He isn't denying his part, in fact he reinforces the belief he knew damn well what he was doing.

"Roggvir. He opened a gate and they executed him for it. He opened a gate and the wrong man rode out of it. If that man hadn't been Ulfric Stormcloak. If Ulfric hadn't killed High King Torygg... But it was Ulfric. And he did kill the High King, in honorable combat. My brother refused to allow the the Imperials to take revenge for the deed. So now he's dead."

Ulfric was being chased after, and Roggvir didn't allow them to capture Ulfric. Thus opening the gate. Reinforced by his own family.

Now onto the issue about other gates, why would the furthest gate be closed? Orders would not have been issued that fast, as to reach outside the city walls. That gate isn't even closed when the city is under siege/during the war.

Now as for the Armistice he mentions down the bottom, that was established by Tiber Septim aka Talos. I personally enjoy the fact he omits the Empire through King Hlaalu Helseth actually ended slave trade. The slaves were set free, and returned to their native provinces.

Still doesn't make any sense and I find it hard to believe for as big as Solitude is that Ulfric manage to get away with 1 guard assistance without getting severely wounded or captured. It's illogical and it simply doesn't back up in forensic science.

Also the piece of the quote you submitted: "Roggvir. He opened a gate and they executed him for it. He opened a gate and the wrong man rode out of it." tells me that Roggvir wasn't even aware of the situation until after. He was just doing his job, and opening up the gate for people to enter and leave.

Roggvir is a true Nord and a law man, which comes with the the territory of being a guard.

"If that man hadn't been Ulfric Stormcloak. If Ulfric hadn't killed High King Torygg... But it was Ulfric. And he did kill the High King, in honorable combat."

After his arrest I'm pretty sure he conducted his own research on what exactly happen on that day. He had his sister to be the investigator on the outside considering the fact that hes in prison. She most likely spoken to those witnesses that Ulfric was talking about, and it was a matter of an open and shut case. Roggvir acknowledge that what he did was right... to open the gates for Ulfric as he has done nothing wrong. Ulfric did not break the law, and therefour had no reason to arresat him.

During his last hour he said this

Roggvir: "There was no murder! Ulfric challenged Torygg. He beat the High King in fair combat."
Roggvir: "Such as our way! Such as the ancient custom of Skyrim, and all Nords!"


If he cared for his throne, why wouldn't he beg? Why not ask for mercy or a chance to keep his throne? If he apparently bowed before the Thalmor to merely keep his throne, why stop at pleading to an assassin for hire? The man could have offered more gold than you could imagine. Man faced death with the same dignity of Uriel VII.

During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II.

Why wouldn't he go for their peace offers during the war? Become a puppet, and figurehead. Like Stormcloaks claim.

"So I ask of you a favor. An old man's dying wish. While there are many who would see me dead, there is one who set the machine in motion."

The man acknowledge that many would like to see him dead. He became a very Unpopular Emperor after the Great war. It was only matter of time before he became exiled, or was assassinated by his own elders counsel members, which in fact one of the members, Amaund Motierre, in fact hired the Dark brotherhood to assassinate him. You can fight for so long until you finally realize that nobody want's you anymore, and I believe that is what we observed when we faced him. Sure he acted courageous, but I believe that he was ready to die.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Still doesn't make any sense and I find it hard to believe for as big as Solitude is that Ulfric manage to get away with 1 guard assistance without getting severely wounded or captured. It's illogical and it simply doesn't back up in forensic science.

What forensic science? He rode out of Solitude. A gate can stop any number of would be pursuers. Riding fast enough, you could get ahead of anyone on foot. Everything both sides are telling us is that Ulfric escaped the city, and he was being chased after.

Also the piece of the quote you submitted: "Roggvir. He opened a gate and they executed him for it. He opened a gate and the wrong man rode out of it." tells me that Roggvir wasn't even aware of the situation until after. He was just doing his job, and opening up the gate for people to enter and leave.

Which is from his sister, she also further explains. "He did the honorable thing, even when he knew it would cost him everything."

"My brother refused to allow the the Imperials to take revenge for the deed."

Roggvir is a true Nord and a law man, which comes with the the territory of being a guard.

Also managed to hide his Talos worship in the heart of Imperial rule. "My brother Roggvir wore a symbol of Talos. He kept it hidden on his person."


After his arrest I'm pretty sure he conducted his own research on what exactly happen on that day. He had his sister to be the investigator on the outside considering the fact that hes in prison. She most likely spoken to those witnesses that Ulfric was talking about, and it was a matter of an open and shut case. Roggvir acknowledge that what he did was right... to open the gates for Ulfric as he has done nothing wrong. Ulfric did not break the law, and therefour had no reason to arresat him.

Which isn't really supported, and nothing presented to us even brings us remotely to that conclusion.

"My brother refused to allow the the Imperials to take revenge for the deed."

"He did the honorable thing, even when he knew it would cost him everything."

During his last hour he said this

Roggvir: "There was no murder! Ulfric challenged Torygg. He beat the High King in fair combat."
Roggvir: "Such as our way! Such as the ancient custom of Skyrim, and all Nords!"

Solidifies his involvement in the High Treason. Executing him wasn't a case of "well they just pinned it all on Roggvir!" as that Stormcloak link suggests. He knew what he was doing.


"So I ask of you a favor. An old man's dying wish. While there are many who would see me dead, there is one who set the machine in motion."

The man acknowledge that many would like to see him dead. He became a very Unpopular Emperor after the Great war. It was only matter of time before he became exiled, or was assassinated by his own elders counsel members, which in fact one of the members, Amaund Motierre, in fact hired the Dark brotherhood to assassinate him. You can fight for so long until you finally realize that nobody want's you anymore, and I believe that is what we observed when we faced him. Sure he acted courageous, but I believe that he was ready to die.

Reman III hid in his chamber refusing to leave, fearful of assassins. Many people want to see the Emperor dead, people in the Imperial Legion wanted to see Uriel VII dead and plotted attempts.

If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him.

Onto another discussion.

Titus II is however quite old, and to be honest he probably does have an heir, or a number of heirs lined up. If at his age he had no heir, then the dynasty would have been doomed. Making babies is generally the first priority for an Emperor/Crown Prince.

I actually believe Motierre probably feels the next in line will be better, it is unlikely he'll directly benefit as in become next ruler of the Council. Politics, and all that. Cast a lot of suspicion if he vanished off on a trip to Skyrim, spent majority of his fortune and suddenly Titus II is assassinated in the same province.

We do get this out of Motierre though:

"In the year 3E 41, Emperor Pelagius Septim was murdered in the Temple of the One in the Imperial City. Cut down by a Dark Brotherhood assassin. His killing ushered in, shall we say, a necessary change in Imperial policy. There are those now who wish for a similar change. I am sorry, but that's all I'm at liberty to say."

"My friend, you may not realize it, but you have served the Empire, indeed all of Tamriel, in ways you cannot possibly imagine."
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
What forensic science? He rode out of Solitude. A gate can stop any number of would be pursuers. Riding fast enough, you could get ahead of anyone on foot. Everything both sides are telling us is that Ulfric escaped the city, and he was being chased after.

He rode out of solitude... OK! But don't the guards and Torygg's soldiers have horses too? Don't they carry bow and arrows? What about that? How on earth could they possibly let a man like ulfric... according to their eyes murdered the high king get a way like that? I still find it bullplops. A rat is a rat and I smell a rat.


Which is from his sister, she also further explains. "He did the honorable thing, even when he knew it would cost him everything."

"My brother refused to allow the the Imperials to take revenge for the deed."

Her sister didn't know everything that happen. She
Also managed to hide his Talos worship in the heart of Imperial rule. "My brother Roggvir wore a symbol of Talos. He kept it hidden on his person."




Which isn't really supported, and nothing presented to us even brings us remotely to that conclusion.

"My brother refused to allow the the Imperials to take revenge for the deed."

"He did the honorable thing, even when he knew it would cost him everything."



Solidifies his involvement in the High Treason. Executing him wasn't a case of "well they just pinned it all on Roggvir!" as that Stormcloak link suggests. He knew what he was doing.


Were starting to repeat things again so I'm going finish up this particular debate that were in.... Ulfric did not break any laws when he challenged Torygg to a duel. Torygg, like a true Nord he was, accepted the Nordic traditions, and fought Ulfric Stormcloak despite the disadvantages that he had. He fought and lost. It's as simple as that. Roggvir like the law man he was did the right thing by letting Ulfric go because he did not commit any crimes, especially considering the fact that Torygg acknowledge that he accepted the fight, even in Sovngarde.


Reman III hid in his chamber refusing to leave, fearful of assassins. Many people want to see the Emperor dead, people in the Imperial Legion wanted to see Uriel VII dead and plotted attempts.

If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him.

Onto another discussion.

Titus II is however quite old, and to be honest he probably does have an heir, or a number of heirs lined up. If at his age he had no heir, then the dynasty would have been doomed. Making babies is generally the first priority for an Emperor/Crown Prince.

I actually believe Motierre probably feels the next in line will be better, it is unlikely he'll directly benefit as in become next ruler of the Council. Politics, and all that. Cast a lot of suspicion if he vanished off on a trip to Skyrim, spent majority of his fortune and suddenly Titus II is assassinated in the same province.

We do get this out of Motierre though:

"In the year 3E 41, Emperor Pelagius Septim was murdered in the Temple of the One in the Imperial City. Cut down by a Dark Brotherhood assassin. His killing ushered in, shall we say, a necessary change in Imperial policy. There are those now who wish for a similar change. I am sorry, but that's all I'm at liberty to say."

"My friend, you may not realize it, but you have served the Empire, indeed all of Tamriel, in ways you cannot possibly imagine."


You said "If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him."

That's not true at all. Titus Mede II not begging for his life has nothing to do with keeping his place on the throne. As a politician it is quite common for this kind of behavior to exhibit. Every single politician... both fictional and the real world lust for power. They would go out of their way to get voted into office because their desperate.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
You're obviously very confused as to what their end game is...

No offense but, I probably have more lore knowledge then 70% of the users on here. #welldeservedarrogance
They can't destroy Nirn without taking Tamriel. IF they really want to destroy it (which has never been officially confirmed) they'd need to kill every last human there is, which they can't do without unhindered access, which in turn they can only achieve by conquest. Read the Imperial Library before coming to your own conclusions.
 

Lewsean

Member
You're obviously very confused as to what their end game is...

No offense but, I probably have more lore knowledge then 70% of the users on here. #welldeservedarrogance
They can't destroy Nirn without taking Tamriel. IF they really want to destroy it (which has never been officially confirmed) they'd need to kill every last human there is, which they can't do without unhindered access, which in turn they can only achieve by conquest. Read the Imperial Library before coming to your own conclusions.
Unfortunately, you're wrong.


To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.


Taken from your precious Imperial Library. Nothing more annoying than someone with an attitude like yours that gets so many things wrong. To get from one side of the road to the other, one needs to cross the road, but that doesn't mean crossing the road is the main goal, only a means to an end. Taking Tamriel isn't their goal. it's a means to fulfil their goal. So NO, they don't want to rule Tamriel at all.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

There, bolded every part that hints that mankind must die for them to achieve victory. And if you had read my posts properly instead of getting agitated by them because I don't agree with you I - and a few posts before DrunkenMage - wrote that this hasn't been confirmed officially (Michael Kirkbride doesn't work for Bethesda anymore so he can't name anymore what's lore and what isn't) so you can't take this as an argument. At the same time, if you had read the TES book "The Infernal City" it's said that they try to establish a new Merethic era, as in Elves over everything.

Besides, chill it. You aren't willing to read posts openly, much less discuss without being a dramaqueen, and call me the one with attitude?
0f6.jpg
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Reman III hid in his chamber refusing to leave, fearful of assassins. Many people want to see the Emperor dead, people in the Imperial Legion wanted to see Uriel VII dead and plotted attempts.

If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him.

Onto another discussion.

Titus II is however quite old, and to be honest he probably does have an heir, or a number of heirs lined up. If at his age he had no heir, then the dynasty would have been doomed. Making babies is generally the first priority for an Emperor/Crown Prince.

I actually believe Motierre probably feels the next in line will be better, it is unlikely he'll directly benefit as in become next ruler of the Council. Politics, and all that. Cast a lot of suspicion if he vanished off on a trip to Skyrim, spent majority of his fortune and suddenly Titus II is assassinated in the same province.

We do get this out of Motierre though:

"In the year 3E 41, Emperor Pelagius Septim was murdered in the Temple of the One in the Imperial City. Cut down by a Dark Brotherhood assassin. His killing ushered in, shall we say, a necessary change in Imperial policy. There are those now who wish for a similar change. I am sorry, but that's all I'm at liberty to say."

"My friend, you may not realize it, but you have served the Empire, indeed all of Tamriel, in ways you cannot possibly imagine."


You said "If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him."

That's not true at all. Titus Mede II not begging for his life has nothing to do with keeping his place on the throne. As a politician it is quite common for this kind of behavior to exhibit. Every single politician... both fictional and the real world lust for power. They would go out of their way to get voted into office because their desperate.


Hehehe Hey Raijin, do you do birthdays? Mine is coming up soon and I'll need a clown to help me perform the cer... errr... Nevermind.


So. Anyways, the thing you forget is Titus Mede in fact did everything you're saying he didn't do. ;)

Old dude didn't run away, he didn't beg, he didn't try to cut a sleazy deal to spare his life, he didn't offer to sell out the Empire or his fellow citizens in his last hours... So your criticism of TMII is personal biased and is refuted directly by the man's actions witnessed near his 'resignation'.

In other words, what I'm saying is you have no idea what you're talking about. As far as people liking him, big flffing deal. Who gives two pl*pss what people think. People don't like me either and I'm not even in politics. Off with my head to huh?

LOTS of people including Jews ~*LOVED*~ Hitler. Some of the worst people in our regrettable history were charismatic.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Reman III hid in his chamber refusing to leave, fearful of assassins. Many people want to see the Emperor dead, people in the Imperial Legion wanted to see Uriel VII dead and plotted attempts.

If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him.

Onto another discussion.

Titus II is however quite old, and to be honest he probably does have an heir, or a number of heirs lined up. If at his age he had no heir, then the dynasty would have been doomed. Making babies is generally the first priority for an Emperor/Crown Prince.

I actually believe Motierre probably feels the next in line will be better, it is unlikely he'll directly benefit as in become next ruler of the Council. Politics, and all that. Cast a lot of suspicion if he vanished off on a trip to Skyrim, spent majority of his fortune and suddenly Titus II is assassinated in the same province.

We do get this out of Motierre though:

"In the year 3E 41, Emperor Pelagius Septim was murdered in the Temple of the One in the Imperial City. Cut down by a Dark Brotherhood assassin. His killing ushered in, shall we say, a necessary change in Imperial policy. There are those now who wish for a similar change. I am sorry, but that's all I'm at liberty to say."

"My friend, you may not realize it, but you have served the Empire, indeed all of Tamriel, in ways you cannot possibly imagine."


You said "If he simply cared about keeping his throne, he would beg to live for as long as possible. He doesn't, and he doesn't even bother trying to offer you more money to spare him."

That's not true at all. Titus Mede II not begging for his life has nothing to do with keeping his place on the throne. As a politician it is quite common for this kind of behavior to exhibit. Every single politician... both fictional and the real world lust for power. They would go out of their way to get voted into office because their desperate.


Really man, 'every' politician. All of them, then you need to change that dial on your radio bro. Hate the player not the game. Politics is politics sure, however there are superior statesman who want to help people in general. I don't like people in general, but some of them do.

If anything, TMII not begging for his life is who is pref'd on the Throne. Someome selfless, someone innocent and with an open mind towards solving mankind's problems. Why, Jarl Elisif would be an excellent fit no?
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
You're obviously very confused as to what their end game is...

No offense but, I probably have more lore knowledge then 70% of the users on here. #welldeservedarrogance
They can't destroy Nirn without taking Tamriel. IF they really want to destroy it (which has never been officially confirmed) they'd need to kill every last human there is, which they can't do without unhindered access, which in turn they can only achieve by conquest. Read the Imperial Library before coming to your own conclusions.
Unfortunately, you're wrong.


To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.


Taken from your precious Imperial Library. Nothing more annoying than someone with an attitude like yours that gets so many things wrong. To get from one side of the road to the other, one needs to cross the road, but that doesn't mean crossing the road is the main goal, only a means to an end. Taking Tamriel isn't their goal. it's a means to fulfil their goal. So NO, they don't want to rule Tamriel at all.


Alright buttercup. What did she get wrong? Ever since I've been here, I've noticed how Rimfaxe has a very strong understanding of Lore and esp the Novels. You might disagree with her ~ However, unfort none of us here work with Beth so all we can do on certain things is speculate.

And if you don't think the Thalmor want to rule Tamriel then?

They would rule Tamriel if nothing more than to prove their point to mankind.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
He rode out of solitude... OK! But don't the guards and Torygg's soldiers have horses too? Don't they carry bow and arrows? What about that?

They could have horses, but they wouldn't be sitting right there. Ulfric rode up on his horse, arrived at the Blue Palace on it. Ulfric riding hard out of Solitude with the gate closing behind him, could give him the head start he needs.

Realistically, not every soldier would have a bow and arrows. You would have archers, but not many fully trained archers. They'd be more volley fire trained, than marksman. Hitting someone riding fast on a horse isn't easy, you have wind and distance to account for. Not to mention many civilians running around, evading the horses, fleeing to their homes.

Modern warfare people still miss targets with a machine gun, bow and arrow is many times harder.

How on earth could they possibly let a man like ulfric... according to their eyes murdered the high king get a way like that? I still find it bullpl***. A rat is a rat and I smell a rat.

Roggvir opening the gate on Ulfric and closing it on his pursuers. It isn't impossible to escape, especially when aided by the man who controlled the gate. Ulfric having a good head start, and then even more of a head start when the Imperials had to reopen the gate.


Were starting to repeat things again so I'm going finish up this particular debate that were in.... Ulfric did not break any laws when he challenged Torygg to a duel. Torygg, like a true Nord he was, accepted the Nordic traditions, and fought Ulfric Stormcloak despite the disadvantages that he had. He fought and lost. It's as simple as that. Roggvir like the law man he was did the right thing by letting Ulfric go because he did not commit any crimes, especially considering the fact that Torygg acknowledge that he accepted the fight, even in Sovngarde.

He still fled to Windhelm evading capture, so the Empire was trying to get him. Many Nords consider the duel dishonorable, because of Torygg's limited martial ability and young age. While Ulfric was a war veteran, using the Thu'um.

"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"



That's not true at all. Titus Mede II not begging for his life has nothing to do with keeping his place on the throne.

Really? One would tend to think being alive is the main point for keeping the throne.

As a politician it is quite common for this kind of behavior to exhibit. Every single politician... both fictional and the real world lust for power. They would go out of their way to get voted into office because their desperate.

So Ulfric is desperate too? He's a politician. What about Brina the Imperial Jarl of Dawnstar? In what way is Titus II being desperate?

I found Titus II to be quite impressive. "Come now, don't be shy. You haven't come this far just to stand there gawking."
 

Harkin

Necromatic Mastermind
They all serve the dragonborn - siding with the empire and Dead thralling Ulfric, Ive got the power of both armies!
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
They all serve the dragonborn - siding with the empire and Dead thralling Ulfric, Ive got the power of both armies!

Seriously, I feel like that solution and comment deserves the "Winner" rating more than any other comment I've seen yet.

epic-win-meme-784.jpg
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
This thread still lingers... a stone cast upon the fires of futility.

Both sides clamoring and pleading, insisting and doubting. A fortunate struggle. An unfortunate waste. I see names, names who have no better business than to announce to the world that someone... is wrong. Names who swear... that they are correct. And more importantly, names who mock they who disagree. To disagree with anyone... to disagree with you... How barbaric? We mustn't have this mutiny of minds, we must debate. We must debate until a side is pronounced right and just.

Well... The next Elder Scrolls game isn't too far around the corner. Why not, rather than insisting who was right or wrong, just wait? Wait until the game is released, to announce more lore behind who is right? To announce who won, who the Dragonborn did side with? Its not like the Warp of the West will happen again, a side must be chosen... or it'll be forgotten. It will be scrapped, ignored and not worth knowing.

How would it feel to have argued for so long just to have it become nothing? To realize that neither is right nor wrong, because thats not how life works? How would it feel to know that everything that has happened here was not done for what was correct... No, it was done because we were here. We, who debate over 900 pages. We, who bicker unendingly. We... who denounce and strive and SHOUT TO THE VERY GODS THEMSELVES... are only yelling in the wind.

Your very breath is doomed to fall upon echoes, to be lost in a cavern of silence. Your drum that has been beaten for so long now ceases to even exist.

Don't get me wrong, you can debate all you want. And, with recent happenings, I'll be happy to throw my hat back in the ring.

Just know that even if your side won... you still lost. Be you Stormcloak or Imperial. Such a poetic irony, no?
 

Harkin

Necromatic Mastermind
I disagree with you Ozan, nice try to categorize this topic as useless debate? Ive not read 900 pages myself but from what I can gather is its not harmful and freedom of speech 4 every1 involed. Who cares how long its pages 10 or 1000 - Debate is creative and most ppl dont live in a world of right or wrong. I'm pretty sure they are going into depth about elder scrolls lore and stormcloak vs imperials in this case, is a big debate. Though not participating myself - This thread is not futile in the slightest and I encourage those who have unfinished debate to continue despite Ozan's own futile attempt to try and conclude something that, in my opinion should not end.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Well... The next Elder Scrolls game isn't too far around the corner.

I doubt the next TES game will be released before the next Fallout game.
Besides, I don't waste breath here. It's not like I voice my own posts and read other ones out loud. And my fingers can always use the speed typing practice.

Besides, it's already obvious that the Empire comes out on top. We could rename the thread to "How to get Stormcloak supporters to realize the Empire owns them all?" :p

Ultimately, while I'm pro-Imperial, I don't care what side people pick so long as it's anti-Thalmor.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
This thread still lingers... a stone cast upon the fires of futility.

Both sides clamoring and pleading, insisting and doubting. A fortunate struggle. An unfortunate waste. I see names, names who have no better business than to announce to the world that someone... is wrong. Names who swear... that they are correct. And more importantly, names who mock they who disagree. To disagree with anyone... to disagree with you... How barbaric? We mustn't have this mutiny of minds, we must debate. We must debate until a side is pronounced right and just.

Well... The next Elder Scrolls game isn't too far around the corner. Why not, rather than insisting who was right or wrong, just wait? Wait until the game is released, to announce more lore behind who is right? To announce who won, who the Dragonborn did side with? Its not like the Warp of the West will happen again, a side must be chosen... or it'll be forgotten. It will be scrapped, ignored and not worth knowing.

How would it feel to have argued for so long just to have it become nothing? To realize that neither is right nor wrong, because thats not how life works? How would it feel to know that everything that has happened here was not done for what was correct... No, it was done because we were here. We, who debate over 900 pages. We, who bicker unendingly. We... who denounce and strive and SHOUT TO THE VERY GODS THEMSELVES... are only yelling in the wind.

Your very breath is doomed to fall upon echoes, to be lost in a cavern of silence. Your drum that has been beaten for so long now ceases to even exist.

Don't get me wrong, you can debate all you want. And, with recent happenings, I'll be happy to throw my hat back in the ring.

Just know that even if your side won... you still lost. Be you Stormcloak or Imperial. Such a poetic irony, no?


Behold our Nobel saviors have arrived!

Any argument claiming the Empire is dead amounts to Schrodinger's cat. The Empire is neither dead or alive but both including all possible alternative points in between. The Imperials have simply, "taken the cat out of the box." Logic determines this, not the Gods.

Light and Darkness resist each other implicitly, they are as you would describe always in a "state of mutiny". It has been this way since the foundation of the world and will always be so. This thread is no exception.

Therefore, the names and faces change however the cause is always the same. This is war and the enemy practices deceit for self, doesn't care about our names or person, only that we die for his gain, so why should we not fight just as hard for our Freedom from him?
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
I disagree with you Ozan, nice try to categorize this topic as useless debate? Ive not read 900 pages myself but from what I can gather is its not harmful and freedom of speech 4 every1 involed. Who cares how long its pages 10 or 1000 - Debate is creative and most ppl dont live in a world of right or wrong. I'm pretty sure they are going into depth about elder scrolls lore and stormcloak vs imperials in this case, is a big debate. Though not participating myself - This thread is not futile in the slightest and I encourage those who have unfinished debate to continue despite Ozan's own futile attempt to try and conclude something that, in my opinion should not end.

I assure you, this thread has been around for some time. There are no new arguments, nothing truly worthwhile to add. No facts will change, no lore. The only thing that can change are the views of the people who debate here, in this very thread. However, I truly doubt that anyone who has debated here for so long would change their minds. There is a moment when people believe they are right and a moment when people swear they are right without playing with the idea that there is a small chance, a glimmer that they may be wrong.
 

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