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LegateFasendil

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Raijin said:
DrunkenMage said:
I'm not even sure why we're debating this, it is well established that information extracted through physical pain is unreliable. Hence why other methods are used in conjunction with pain.

The desire of love was merely one example, and as it states it isn't for extracting information. You can't break someone's faith through beating them, you can't make them betray their God and other followers by force.

If Talos worshipers can give up their God and other fellow worshipers through pain, then Talos is screwed.

"My oath to Stendarr is stronger than any suffering you can inflict on me." - Adalvald

Stendarr's followers aren't so easy.
Click to expand...

I think it is very much reliable considering the fact that an overwhelming amount of people simply do not like being in such physical pain. It is simply the negative side effect for being a mortal, and therefor it's so easy to exploit to get information out of people. Like I said before the Thalmor are finding new methods to use to against the Nord's of Skyrim. Forcing their Nordic prisoners to confess by revealing them secret locations to their Talos worship shrines takes extreme measurements.

Adalvald is all words and no action. He was given a quick death, and didn't even the time to react from the pain. I don't think his oath to Stenndarr would mean much once his pain receptions started taking an effect... once he actually started feeling pain from being tortured by his vampire capture.

Click to expand...


Pain is effective however pain is temporary. A strong enough mind can literally ignore pain, not just block it but not even allow it to register, like those Special Forces people. Pain is not the only tool for breaking one's spirit, however for the simpletons, pain is really all it takes. And there are different forms of pain too. ;)

There are however, always exceptions.
 
DrunkenMage

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Raijin said:
I think it is very much reliable considering the fact that an overwhelming amount of people simply do not like being in such physical pain. It is simply the negative side effect for being a mortal, and therefor it's so easy to exploit to get information out of people. Like I said before the Thalmor are finding new methods to use to against the Nord's of Skyrim. Forcing their Nordic prisoners to confess by revealing them secret locations to their Talos worship shrines takes extreme measurements.

Adalvald is all words and no action. He was given a quick death, and didn't even the time to react from the pain. I don't think his oath to Stenndarr would mean much once his pain receptions started taking an effect... once he actually started feeling pain from being tortured by his vampire capture.

Click to expand...

Torture through physical pain is unreliable, it is an established fact. More often than not, the victim merely says what the torturer wants to hear to make it stop than the truth.

In Tamriel the Gods are real. You can't make someone betray their God through pain, taking someone who has worshiped this God since childhood. You can't undo decades of worship and faith by beating them or causing other bodily harm. Pain is temporary, once you hit a level of pain your body just shuts down, then you have to wait until they wake up. Stress, pain, sleep deprivation weakens memory so you just make it harder.

The Thalmor beating a Thief for information about some random guy, he has no loyalty with or even knows much about is a completely different situation than the Thalmor extracting information from Ulfric Stormcloak that would damage the Empire's war effort or getting a worshiper to betray their God and fellow religious comrades.

Besides, they're just beating that Thief for the sake of it now. Trying to obtain dominance and just break him so he becomes a shell of a man.

Now for some reason, you're unable to grasp that torture through physical pain is unreliable. Use Google, you will get pages upon pages telling you why it is unreliable.

Which goes back to my minor point, that has for some reason turned into a huge debate. The Thalmor do other things to break people, not just use physical harm.
 
Raijin

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
LegateFasendil said:
Pain is effective however pain is temporary. A strong enough mind can literally ignore pain, not just block it but not even allow it to register, like those Special Forces people. Pain is not the only tool for breaking one's spirit, however for the simpletons, pain is really all it takes. And there are different forms of pain too. ;)

There are however, always exceptions.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with this. Severe pain can easily defeat a strong will mind. The only way you can truly ignore pain is if you're a machine.

mom.jpg
 
Miraak Tactics

Miraak Tactics

Member
Well, anyone can ignore pain, without having to be a machine, you would have to take your kind else where, and some people have a natural high damage thresh hold and can take pain very well, take Spartans from Ancient Greece for example. Raijin
 
LegateFasendil

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Raijin said:
LegateFasendil said:
Pain is effective however pain is temporary. A strong enough mind can literally ignore pain, not just block it but not even allow it to register, like those Special Forces people. Pain is not the only tool for breaking one's spirit, however for the simpletons, pain is really all it takes. And there are different forms of pain too. ;)

There are however, always exceptions.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with this. Severe pain can easily defeat a strong will mind. The only way you can truly ignore pain is if you're a machine.

mom.jpg
Click to expand...


Short term pain, like say... being punched or slapped *really hard* in the chest is one thing.

However, I would agree that debilitating pain, such as a 'burn' or something emotionally scarring could most certainly mess with the mind.

Torturing however is not meant to cause lasting affects.
 
Raijin

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Miraak Tactics said:
Well, anyone can ignore pain, without having to be a machine, you would have to take your kind else where, and some people have a natural high damage thresh hold and can take pain very well, take Spartans from Ancient Greece for example. Raijin
Click to expand...

I will only change my opinion if you can find someone with that strong will mind willing to undergo major surgery without sedation and anesthesia. I want see it for myself that the human body can withstand brutal and harsh pain without giving in.
 
Raijin

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
DrunkenMage said:
Torture through physical pain is unreliable, it is an established fact. More often than not, the victim merely says what the torturer wants to hear to make it stop than the truth.

In Tamriel the Gods are real. You can't make someone betray their God through pain, taking someone who has worshiped this God since childhood. You can't undo decades of worship and faith by beating them or causing other bodily harm. Pain is temporary, once you hit a level of pain your body just shuts down, then you have to wait until they wake up. Stress, pain, sleep deprivation weakens memory so you just make it harder.

The Thalmor beating a Thief for information about some random guy, he has no loyalty with or even knows much about is a completely different situation than the Thalmor extracting information from Ulfric Stormcloak that would damage the Empire's war effort or getting a worshiper to betray their God and fellow religious comrades.

Besides, they're just beating that Thief for the sake of it now. Trying to obtain dominance and just break him so he becomes a shell of a man.

Now for some reason, you're unable to grasp that torture through physical pain is unreliable. Use Google, you will get pages upon pages telling you why it is unreliable.

Which goes back to my minor point, that has for some reason turned into a huge debate. The Thalmor do other things to break people, not just use physical harm.
Click to expand...

I still disagree. Why would you go out of your way to lie to your torturer when the punishment for lying can be even worst? I find it hard to believe that once the prisoner tells the torturer what they want to hear that they will just let them go like that. Most likely the torturer will send someone to confirm what their prisoner is telling them, and if the prisoner is lying that they will be greatly punished. The only way that physical pain can be unreliable is if the prisoner is suicidal, and wants to die.

A torturer that wants his prisoner kept alive knows when to stop, and knows when the body of his prisoner had enough. They will stop for a while so that their prisoners body can recover, and then the process continues until the next session.

The logic behind torture through physical pain is to slowly introduce mental pain by challenging the willfulness of the prisoner... to see how much he can tolerate the physical pain before he finally cracks down, and surrenders.
 
Jei El

Jei El

We will be avenged.
Oughta change my name, this whole lizard thing is dead. I'm going to change it to something more fitting, (Long live PAHAAA).

Enjoy that tail! It shall be the last you ever get!

(Feel free to send me the recipe.)
 
Lewsean

Lewsean

Member
DrunkenMage said:
Lewsean said:
Rimfaxe96 said:
It isn't cut content, darling. Look it up.
Click to expand...
Yes it is.
Click to expand...

No it isn't. The Civil War Overhaul Mod has some cut content, majority of it is actually just the Modders doing. Tullius and Ulfric fighting on the front lines is his doing, not in the original plan by Bethesda.

The actual cut content had Galmar and Rikke at Markarth/Riften as seen by their cut dialogues. Nothing about Ulfric and Tullius.

Though if that is mistaken, show your source? Besides the Modder saying "Ulfric and Tullius are super-lazy. They just hang out in their castles all day yelling at people to do stuff. Let's make the boss get his hands dirty: this feature may bring Ulfric and Tullius to the front lines of sieges."
Click to expand...
If the diaologue is there, they were supposed to be there.
 
LegateFasendil

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Lewsean said:
Rimfaxe96 said:
Lewsean said:
Yes it is.
Click to expand...

Nope. And since you don't want to look it up yourself, here we go:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rolff_Stone-Fist

Want me to make you a screenshot having the line marked so you'll find it on the page?
Click to expand...
Sure :)
Click to expand...


I believe this is the quote in question:

"Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate."
- Rolff Stone-Fist

There is, after all, an interrogation chamber below the Windhelm Barracks. If that helps.

As for cut-content, an artist's work is complete but never finished. Unless it's New Vegas, then it is finished as much as finished could be finished, if it were complete. :cool:

About the ratings, I believe we all should make a pact on here to informally ban negative ratings. Voice your discontent thru facts or at least making a point. That's how I does it and wins 95% of the time. ;)

In fact, even when I don't win, they usually still lose points by throwing out reason, room for discourse and then trying to force their way of thinking on someone. Happened once by an over-zealous Stormcloak-admin-prick on another forum, in taking away my freedom of speech they turned their cause upside down. It was glorious, watching them turn on each other. Hehehe Anyways, carry on...
 
Lewsean

Lewsean

Member
DrunkenMage said:
Lewsean said:
If the diaologue is there, they were supposed to be there.
Click to expand...

Which dialogue? Can you show it? Or are you at the stage where you only have negative ratings to give, instead of arguments.
Click to expand...
The dialogue of his battle speech before Whiterun. If it's there to be used, it was recorded, meaning it was obviously meant to be used, so it was cut. I've said this numerous times. A modder can't create dialogue for unique characters.


LegateFasendil said:
Lewsean said:
Rimfaxe96 said:
Nope. And since you don't want to look it up yourself, here we go:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rolff_Stone-Fist

Want me to make you a screenshot having the line marked so you'll find it on the page?
Click to expand...
Sure :)
Click to expand...


I believe this is the quote in question:

"Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate."
- Rolff Stone-Fist

There is, after all, an interrogation chamber below the Windhelm Barracks. If that helps.

As for cut-content, an artist's work is complete but never finished. Unless it's New Vegas, then it is finished as much as finished could be finished, if it were complete. :cool:

About the ratings, I believe we all should make a pact on here to informally ban negative ratings. Voice your discontent thru facts or at least making a point. That's how I does it and wins 95% of the time. ;)

In fact, even when I don't win, they usually still lose points by throwing out reason, room for discourse and then trying to force their way of thinking on someone. Happened once by an over-zealous Stormcloak-admin-prick on another forum, in taking away my freedom of speech they turned their cause upside down. It was glorious, watching them turn on each other. Hehehe Anyways, carry on...
Click to expand...
But I've not said anything about torture o_O The only thing debate I've joined in recently was dialogue lol, I was rather confused with the link to Rolff's page because of that and the way he implied that I should know what I was looking for as I read the page obviously looking for something to do with cut content :p
 
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DrunkenMage

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Lewsean said:
The dialogue of his battle speech before Whiterun. If it's there to be used, it was recorded, meaning it was obviously meant to be used, so it was cut. I've said this numerous times. A modder can't create dialogue for unique characters.
Click to expand...

Except Bethesda have Galmar doing that speech instead, which means they recorded him giving it and used it in the final release. They chose to remove him and make Galmar give the speech.

How do you make a valid argument out of that? They recorded Galmar's voice actor doing the same speech, and they kept him.

Since this stems from Rimfaxe saying Ulfric sits on his throne while Galmar does all the work. Which is true, Galmar handles the Military and the new Jarls making sure they're staying in line.

Your argument about this is contradicted. If Ulfric is supposed to give the speech, because it was recorded thus meant to be used. Why does Galmar have the speech, recorded and actually used in the final cut. That is a clear intention. They could have removed all the other sieges and all the unique quests, still kept him. But removing Ulfric and replacing him with Galmar (Who gives the same speech just about) is a little more than "Oh well, ran out of time, cut."

Edit: Bethesda records a lot of dialogue, they don't keep everything. Even though it may still be within the game, it doesn't mean it was supposed to be used in the final release. Also Modders can actually create new dialogue, there are people who are skilled at imitating other voices. I was on a Skype call with a few people from the forums year or two back, there is someone on here who can do an amazing Jarl Balgruuf voice. Spot on imitation.
 
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LegateFasendil

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
DrunkenMage said:
Lewsean said:
The dialogue of his battle speech before Whiterun. If it's there to be used, it was recorded, meaning it was obviously meant to be used, so it was cut. I've said this numerous times. A modder can't create dialogue for unique characters.
Click to expand...

Except Bethesda have Galmar doing that speech instead, which means they recorded him giving it and used it in the final release. They chose to remove him and make Galmar give the speech.

How do you make a valid argument out of that? They recorded Galmar's voice actor doing the same speech, and they kept him.

Since this stems from Rimfaxe saying Ulfric sits on his throne while Galmar does all the work. Which is true, Galmar handles the Military and the new Jarls making sure they're staying in line.

Your argument about this is contradicted. If Ulfric is supposed to give the speech, because it was recorded thus meant to be used. Why does Galmar have the speech, recorded and actually used in the final cut. That is a clear intention. They could have removed all the other sieges and all the unique quests, still kept him. But removing Ulfric and replacing him with Galmar (Who gives the same speech just about) is a little more than "Oh well, ran out of time, cut."
Click to expand...


The confusion, dead-end direction and overall fragmentation involved in this game is appalling. Esp when you're trying to make the hard decisions about whose a kool dude and whose a Melvin.

It's as if someone had a vision, built an interesting foundation and someone else forced them to abandon this for something less. That is what's being expressed in this argument right now. ;)
 
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