Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Removed quests and cut content are two different things.. Siege battles & who takes part in them were cut to save time, whereas the quests were removed as a change to the story. The only thing cut from the Civil War were who does the speeches, npc's that take part (Giant's for the Stormcloaks), and citty siges (Markarth, Falkreath & Morthal). This started from someone saying the Jarl just sits on his throne all the time.

Not really, cut content/removed quests are basically the same thing. They were quests which were cut. The Civil War is a quest, and had several quests removed. There were 12 radiant quests + the city sieges. Only three quests remain in the Civil War out of the 12.

There was a lot cut from the Civil War.

Imperial Legion quests

"First off, we've learned the location of some rebels scouting our positions throughout the hold. Need to take them out."

"First off, they've got some rebels holed up in a nearby settlement. Need to clean them out so our boys can move in."

"First, we need to limit Stormcloak capacity and send them a not so subtle message by sabotaging a resource they claim to control."

"First, we have information regarding the movements of a rebel courier. We need to intercept him and confiscate his package."

"First of all, one of our men was captured by rebels who refuse to surrender him. So we're going to break him out."

"First of all, I need to sew confusion and doubt through the rebel troops. I want to assassinate their commanding officer."

"First, our intelligence suggests one of the rebel garrisons has become disaffected. If we play our cards right, we should be able to turn them."

"First off, seems the Jarl's Steward might be vulnerable to blackmail. Need to investigate that possibility."

"First on my list, is a problem with our supply caravans being constantly harassed by a giant. Need to deal with that hairy brute. And soon."

"First, I need to get a handle on rebel operations. Need to discretely liberate some documents from their headquarters."

"First of all, I'd like to drum up some more support from the local populace. I have someone in mind."

"First off, there's an Orc hanging around causing me headaches. Something about a vision quest he needs help with."


The dialogue is doubled with "Secondly" so it appears you got given two assignments.

The enemy faction would also actively play against you, attacking your Holds, villages, and what not. You were paid weekly and could donate your money to the widows of your fallen soldiers. If I recall correctly you were able to set patrol routes for your soldiers. Attack and take over mines, mills, farms etc.
Did you know the Stormcloaks were supposed to have Giants and Wolves on their side? There was a radiant quest for Recruiting them into the ranks that is apparently irrecoverable, so the good man who made CWO put it on.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
We suspect Ulfric was tortured, most likely he was, but he was wanted as an asset.
I'd say it's a definite yes, Ulfric Stormcloak is many things, but he is no pushover. If he gave away that kind of information he was tortured for it.

Really? Do you have something that backs this up? I'm no psychologist, but isn't it possible that someone who has experienced great pain are indeed able to inflict the same amount in others or worse? Using what happened to them as the instruction how.
It is possible although that usually stems from minor harm, like Bullying or just psychological torment, might do that. But something more physically, emotionally and mentally traumatic, might form into complete unresponsiveness or disgust with actions of a similar nature. Likely why those torture tools are in the corner next to a bunch of crates.

Anyone is capable of great harm.
Especially someone of such power.

Since we are going into psychology, Ulfric being broken by the Thalmor. Mind and soul, he broke and gave them the information they wanted (Though it was useless at the time he broke) could there not be lasting effects? Tamriel isn't big on psychology, so in a harsh environment where violence is the norm. Is he stable enough?
Physically, I would say yes. Emotionally, no, definitely not. Mentally... its a maybe, although I would lead more towards yes. He's not ethically, or empathetically incognizant so I would say his mental track is decent. Not healthy, but not sociopathic. He cares... if you see my meaning.

Ulfric's own views on how he justifies things "There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff."

From your psychological stand point, is that harmless or alarming?
I wouldn't call it alarming, but its certainly not harmless. However the men and women serving under him are quite willing to sacrifice themselves for his cause so I would call it being aware of the people around you and of what they are willing to do for you and your cause.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Just kidding man. I dunno, perhaps it would have been best to at least have allowed Ulfric Stormcloak his say in the battles. We could have learned more about his policies and what vision he had for Skyrim. It seems Skyrim and it's Civil War has had a profound impact on many people and for their sake, Skyrim deserves more attention. This most certainly goes for the Empire as well, I was looking forward to a 4th DLC and making right the WGC.

At least this way, we all could have had some kind of closure. A little more character dev between Ulfric and Tullius would have been nice as well.

I was looking forward to the 4th DLC where you can get Ulfric Stormcloak and General Tullius to hug each other.

tumblr_mpr0dwBfKH1rhh90ho1_500.jpg
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
I was looking forward to the 4th DLC where you can get Ulfric Stormcloak and General Tullius to hug each other.

tumblr_mpr0dwBfKH1rhh90ho1_500.jpg
10/10 would watch again



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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
It would most definitely be an exclusive pay-per-view moment.
I would say it's priceless


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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I'd say it's a definite yes, Ulfric Stormcloak is many things, but he is no pushover. If he gave away that kind of information he was tortured for it.

Torture isn't the most effective for gaining information, so there would have been more to it for the information to be reliable. The Thalmor did something to him, he has his fanatical moments.

It is possible although that usually stems from minor harm, like Bullying or just psychological torment, might do that. But something more physically, emotionally and mentally traumatic, might form into complete unresponsiveness or disgust with actions of a similar nature. Likely why those torture tools are in the corner next to a bunch of crates.

He wouldn't have been broken on pain alone, Ulfric is stronger than that and torture yields unreliable results. If he was just tortured without mercy, he would have most likely died or pass out more often than not. Whatever he went through, he was also made to believe he caused the Imperial City to fall.

Especially someone of such power.

Even if he himself won't torture, I wouldn't put it past his supporters. His more racist and xenophobic supporters, believe Ulfric would feel the same as they do, support the same ideologies as they. Ulfric may not be doing these things, but he isn't speaking against them either.

Physically, I would say yes. Emotionally, no, definitely not. Mentally... its a maybe, although I would lead more towards yes. He's not ethically, or empathetically incognizant so I would say his mental track is decent. Not healthy, but not sociopathic. He cares... if you see my meaning.

When he was toying with General Tullius, trying to gloat and play it out like it was a drama scene from a play. (Which even annoyed Galmar) It kind of seemed to me, that it showed the darker side of Ulfric, the one behind closed doors. I got a psychopathic vibe from that encounter.

I wouldn't call it alarming, but its certainly not harmless. However the men and women serving under him are quite willing to sacrifice themselves for his cause so I would call it being aware of the people around you and of what they are willing to do for you and your cause.

Which can lead to destruction, if they're willing to die for a leader who has possibly lost himself in his own image and story. Ralof mentions few know Ulfric first hand, or have ever seen him in person. Who are they willing to die for, the man or the legend?

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius to Ulfric Stormcloak
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Did you know the Stormcloaks were supposed to have Giants and Wolves on their side? There was a radiant quest for Recruiting them into the ranks that is apparently irrecoverable, so the good man who made CWO put it on.

Never knew about wolves. UESP forums only mentioned you could recruit Orc Mercenaries and Giants. I would have liked to see giant in battle, but maybe scale them down a little. Hate to do the civil war at low level and have your forces get owned by this giant.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Torture isn't the most effective for gaining information, so there would have been more to it for the information to be reliable. The Thalmor did something to him, he has his fanatical moments.

Torture seems to be getting what the Thalmor wants so torture is in fact an effective method for gaining information. They manage to collect information from one of the members of the thieves guild by beating the crap out of him during an interrogation.

I mean think of it this way... I kidnap you and hold you in a tiny little cell with a boom box and a TV. I give you 2 option of abandoning your support for the Imperials, and to join forces with the Stormcloaks or the other option is that I force you to listen NOTHING but Justin Biebers music on the loudest volume, and make you watch his music videos for how many days/weeks/months and years for you to change your conception views of Skyrim's politics.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Never knew about wolves. UESP forums only mentioned you could recruit Orc Mercenaries and Giants. I would have liked to see giant in battle, but maybe scale them down a little. Hate to do the civil war at low level and have your forces get owned by this giant.
Yeah that would be a little OP, although the Stormcloaks would have less armor and numbers than the Imperials so it might even out


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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
This is new to me... Stormcloaks recruits Giants, wolves and Orc Mercenaries? How on earth can they communicate with the wolves? Unless if they capture them, and train them. Did this for any reason came out of that extended civil war mod? The Stormcloaks don't seem the type to take in sell swordsmen. I doubt that they would start allowing Mercenaries to fight for them. I can see the Imperials taking in Mercenaries considering the fact that their a bit on the thin side, which was confirmed from a couple of legates in Imperial controlled holds.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Torture seems to be getting what the Thalmor wants so torture is in fact an effective method for gaining information. They manage to collect information from one of the members of the thieves guild by beating the crap out of him during an interrogation.

I mean think of it this way... I kidnap you and hold you in a tiny little cell with a boom box and a TV. I give you 2 option of abandoning your support for the Imperials, and to join forces with the Stormcloaks or the other option is that I force you to listen NOTHING but Justin Biebers music on the loudest volume, and make you watch his music videos for how many days/weeks/months and years for you to change your conception views of Skyrim's politics.

Physical torture doesn't always work, there are other methods that go with it. Just like the real world, people in Tamriel understand that torture through pain isn't reliable by itself.

Love, as it is, is a very powerful force, and it is through love that most mortals perform their greatest and most heroic deeds. Though love can be directed at any number of abstract concepts—love for the Empire, love for one's personal deity, love for one's home—these are more tenuous forms of the emotion and thus less effective for our torture methods. Manipulating love for abstract concepts is best served for souring a mortal's disposition in peaceful times, not for extracting information while in the torture chamber. - Proper Torture Techniques Vo. 8

Pain can be an effective tool in the torture of mortals, but it has an inherent failing—it is temporary. Failure, on the other hand, lasts for an eternity.


Throughout their brief existence, every mortal invariably attempts activities that are beyond their physical capabilities, in the hopes of achieving greatness. Mortals refer to this quality as "ambition." Inevitably, complications brought about by overreach, overexertion, miscalculation, or simply by bad luck will result in a catastrophic failure in one or more of these activities. The resulting shame and self-reproach will often imprint itself within a mortal's mind and forever remain, haunting them for the remainder or their days. - Proper Torture Techniques Vol. 13


 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Physical torture doesn't always work, there are other methods that go with it. Just like the real world, people in Tamriel understand that torture through pain isn't reliable by itself.

Love, as it is, is a very powerful force, and it is through love that most mortals perform their greatest and most heroic deeds. Though love can be directed at any number of abstract concepts—love for the Empire, love for one's personal deity, love for one's home—these are more tenuous forms of the emotion and thus less effective for our torture methods. Manipulating love for abstract concepts is best served for souring a mortal's disposition in peaceful times, not for extracting information while in the torture chamber. - Proper Torture Techniques Vo. 8

Pain can be an effective tool in the torture of mortals, but it has an inherent failing—it is temporary. Failure, on the other hand, lasts for an eternity.


Throughout their brief existence, every mortal invariably attempts activities that are beyond their physical capabilities, in the hopes of achieving greatness. Mortals refer to this quality as "ambition." Inevitably, complications brought about by overreach, overexertion, miscalculation, or simply by bad luck will result in a catastrophic failure in one or more of these activities. The resulting shame and self-reproach will often imprint itself within a mortal's mind and forever remain, haunting them for the remainder or their days. - Proper Torture Techniques Vol. 13

Their is so much that a human can take before surrendering to the physical torture that they're experiencing.

For an example I was self physically torturing myself for years of not going to the dentist on a regular basics. I started developing a toothache that wouldn't go away, and I ignored it because I was stubborn enough not to go see a dentist about my problem. 3 days ago I finally surrendered from all of the months of physical torture that I was causing myself. The pain that I was experiencing was enough that almost cost me a visit to the ER. I had finally overcome my stubbornness nature, and scheduled an appointment to see a dentist, where the next day I had the bad tooth extracted.

The Thalmor's physical torture method seems to be working rather good in Skyrim.


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lorcalin's_Orders

Agent Lorcalin,

In recent weeks, two prisoners have confessed to worshipping at a Talos shrine in the hills above White River Gorge. This cult must not be allowed to grow any further. Find the shrine. Hunt down any heretics you find there. Take no prisoners.

Elenwen

This further proves that the mortals desire of love means nothing when they're getting tortured. I'm certain that Elenwen didn't just say "Please" in a polite tone of voice while interrogating her 2 prisoners. Either you tell her what she wants to know or she'll take you to the rack.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Their is so much that a human can take before surrendering to the physical torture that they're experiencing.

For an example I was self physically torturing myself for years of not going to the dentist on a regular basics. I started developing a toothache that wouldn't go away, and I ignored it because I was stubborn enough not to go see a dentist about my problem. 3 days ago I finally surrendered from all of the months of physical torture that I was causing myself. The pain that I was experiencing was enough that almost cost me a visit to the ER. I had finally overcome my stubbornness nature, and scheduled an appointment to see a dentist, where the next day I had the bad tooth extracted.

The Thalmor's physical torture method seems to be working rather good in Skyrim.


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lorcalin's_Orders

Agent Lorcalin,

In recent weeks, two prisoners have confessed to worshipping at a Talos shrine in the hills above White River Gorge. This cult must not be allowed to grow any further. Find the shrine. Hunt down any heretics you find there. Take no prisoners.

Elenwen

This further proves that the mortals desire of love means nothing when they're getting tortured. I'm certain that Elenwen didn't just say "Please" in a polite tone of voice while interrogating her 2 prisoners. Either you tell her what she wants to know or she'll take you to the rack.

I'm not even sure why we're debating this, it is well established that information extracted through physical pain is unreliable. Hence why other methods are used in conjunction with pain.

The desire of love was merely one example, and as it states it isn't for extracting information. You can't break someone's faith through beating them, you can't make them betray their God and other followers by force.

If Talos worshipers can give up their God and other fellow worshipers through pain, then Talos is screwed.

"My oath to Stendarr is stronger than any suffering you can inflict on me." - Adalvald

Stendarr's followers aren't so easy.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Cut content, my dear. Cut content.

It isn't cut content, darling. Look it up.
Yes it is.

No it isn't. The Civil War Overhaul Mod has some cut content, majority of it is actually just the Modders doing. Tullius and Ulfric fighting on the front lines is his doing, not in the original plan by Bethesda.

The actual cut content had Galmar and Rikke at Markarth/Riften as seen by their cut dialogues. Nothing about Ulfric and Tullius.

Though if that is mistaken, show your source? Besides the Modder saying "Ulfric and Tullius are super-lazy. They just hang out in their castles all day yelling at people to do stuff. Let's make the boss get his hands dirty: this feature may bring Ulfric and Tullius to the front lines of sieges."
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Their is so much that a human can take before surrendering to the physical torture that they're experiencing.

For an example I was self physically torturing myself for years of not going to the dentist on a regular basics. I started developing a toothache that wouldn't go away, and I ignored it because I was stubborn enough not to go see a dentist about my problem. 3 days ago I finally surrendered from all of the months of physical torture that I was causing myself. The pain that I was experiencing was enough that almost cost me a visit to the ER. I had finally overcome my stubbornness nature, and scheduled an appointment to see a dentist, where the next day I had the bad tooth extracted.

The Thalmor's physical torture method seems to be working rather good in Skyrim.


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lorcalin's_Orders

Agent Lorcalin,

In recent weeks, two prisoners have confessed to worshipping at a Talos shrine in the hills above White River Gorge. This cult must not be allowed to grow any further. Find the shrine. Hunt down any heretics you find there. Take no prisoners.

Elenwen

This further proves that the mortals desire of love means nothing when they're getting tortured. I'm certain that Elenwen didn't just say "Please" in a polite tone of voice while interrogating her 2 prisoners. Either you tell her what she wants to know or she'll take you to the rack.

I'm not even sure why we're debating this, it is well established that information extracted through physical pain is unreliable. Hence why other methods are used in conjunction with pain.

The desire of love was merely one example, and as it states it isn't for extracting information. You can't break someone's faith through beating them, you can't make them betray their God and other followers by force.

If Talos worshipers can give up their God and other fellow worshipers through pain, then Talos is screwed.

"My oath to Stendarr is stronger than any suffering you can inflict on me." - Adalvald

Stendarr's followers aren't so easy.


Any enterprise composed by man will have "weak-links". It really depends more on the person and less on the religion itself. Hence, certain practices are no longer carried out in South America... that we know of. The arrival of Cortez and Pizarro changed South America from what it was, to Catholicism and Spanish culture. (Well, perhaps a mix of cultures but close enough to the mark.)

Killing a religion is possible... and I've known several Religious people who were sell-outs themselves. I know a guy works in another dept and overtime he became an atheist and another was a friend from High School who hated Christianity and she is now a card-carrying Christian.

Ironically, I think as long as the Empire survives the worship of Talos will somehow survive with it. The Stormcloaks are fighting for the Freedom to worship Talos openly yet, Talos was an Imperialist and not sure how far Ulfric himself would allow Talos worship, because you can't worship Talos without ack his Empire and that is something Ulfric truly hates.

As far as love is concerned, I don't think mortals are truly capable of it or understand what it really means. You can love someone temporarily or think you do, but it doesn't last. When you're a Nord chained to a wall and some really pissed-off Elf is shoving a scalding hot floor lamp up your posterior, I can *Guarantee* you're priorities and outlook on life will change quickly and dramatically.
 
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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Just kidding man. I dunno, perhaps it would have been best to at least have allowed Ulfric Stormcloak his say in the battles. We could have learned more about his policies and what vision he had for Skyrim. It seems Skyrim and it's Civil War has had a profound impact on many people and for their sake, Skyrim deserves more attention. This most certainly goes for the Empire as well, I was looking forward to a 4th DLC and making right the WGC.

At least this way, we all could have had some kind of closure. A little more character dev between Ulfric and Tullius would have been nice as well.

I was looking forward to the 4th DLC where you can get Ulfric Stormcloak and General Tullius to hug each other.

tumblr_mpr0dwBfKH1rhh90ho1_500.jpg


This sort of concept is conditioned in New Vegas, it's a hidden gem however there are numerous ways to bend and twist politics in that game, albeit irrefutably. Unfort, yes unfort for a lot of people, Beth or some sociopath in mgmt. decided to whip out his @#$% and cut out Skyrim's heart. The correct answer to the Civil War is to form some kind of cooperation between both sides. However ~ Violence and Conquest has solved more problems in history than peace alone has solved.
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I'm not even sure why we're debating this, it is well established that information extracted through physical pain is unreliable. Hence why other methods are used in conjunction with pain.

The desire of love was merely one example, and as it states it isn't for extracting information. You can't break someone's faith through beating them, you can't make them betray their God and other followers by force.

If Talos worshipers can give up their God and other fellow worshipers through pain, then Talos is screwed.

"My oath to Stendarr is stronger than any suffering you can inflict on me." - Adalvald

Stendarr's followers aren't so easy.

I think it is very much reliable considering the fact that an overwhelming amount of people simply do not like being in such physical pain. It is simply the negative side effect for being a mortal, and therefor it's so easy to exploit to get information out of people. Like I said before the Thalmor are finding new methods to use to against the Nord's of Skyrim. Forcing their Nordic prisoners to confess by revealing them secret locations to their Talos worship shrines takes extreme measurements.

Adalvald is all words and no action. He was given a quick death, and didn't even the time to react from the pain. I don't think his oath to Stenndarr would mean much once his pain receptions started taking an effect... once he actually started feeling pain from being tortured by his vampire capture.

 

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