Quest Civil War: Stormcloaks vs. Imperials

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Jigsaw

New Member
At first, on my last save, I thought that Ulfric lead the better cause. He is fighting for his country, his brothers, and to be a free country. But after we killed Tulius, people I spoke to said the Stormcloaks were being racist. Basically to them if you arent a Nord then GTFO.

I might join imperials this time. What do you all think? Who has the better cause? And why?
 

Will Olmen

Member
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote myself from another thread about this exact same thing. Why? Because I was right then and I'm still right. People like to get all philosophical and yadda yadda about freedom of religion and so on and so forth but I present to you an ACCURATE true to REALISTIC CIRCUMSTANCES model of what would most likely occur in Skyrim and TAMRIEL on the whole given the two choices.

Starting with religion. The controversy of Talos' divinity is something that has been discussed within the Empire for a very long time. But the vast majority of the citizens continued to accept that Talos was a Divine. They did so because the evidence that he was working and guiding events was present. Some people could compare him to Jesus, and I hope that doesn't offend anybody. But he was a man who did great things and eventually left the mortal world to become a being of a more divine nature. Talos' followers, like Jesus', would tell you that they have felt the touch of the Divine when they practiced their faith. And in Tamriel Talos' followers have the added benefit of being able to literally WITNESS their faith rewarded. And I'm not speaking of shrines. Upon further inspection I believe the shrines only work in the manner we see them because we are playing through the eyes of an individual literally CHOSEN BY THE GODS. So the Shrines almost certainly confer upon the player more than they would do for the average citizen. But Talos, and the other Divines, have been seen working through various avatars to aid and manipulate events. The argument against Talos' divinity has only recently been made a genuine discussion due to the Thalmor agents and their supporters working to plant seeds of doubt to make the populace more controllable for when they take over.

The White-Gold Concordat states as part of an agreement to peace, the Empire must disband and BAN the worship of Talos. But it is to be noted that the Empire's agreement to this was really only skin deep. Their action was to tell everyone not to do it, in ONE Imperial Missive - not over and over like they would if they meant it- and to have the larger shrines remove the idol of Talos from the main chamber. However, the Empire did not seek out and destroy all the wayside shrines that litter the world. They engaged in no inquisition to force Talos out of homes. They did the very smallest amount. To be perfectly honest the Empire agreeing to not worship Talos is almost a joke. They basically manipulated the Dominion into stopping and letting them rebuild their armies in return for taking down some statues in the shrines. I've yet to meet a SINGLE PERSON in Skyrim that speaks out AGAINST Talos that isn't an Altmer. And counter to that I've heard Imperial personnel say his name time and again. Get into a fight with the Empire at your back, you'll hear Nord and Imperial Legionnaires asking Talos to watch over them almost as often as you hear the Stormcloaks do it. Religious freedom is important to many people. And Tamriel being a place where Gods are considerably more present than Earth religion is even more prominent. But the majority of people in the Empire, Skyrim included, seem to understand that agreeing to not go to temple and pray to Talos, being forced to do it in the confines of their own home, was a price the Empire paid to save countless innocent lives and avoid being caught in a war that would eventually leave both sides completely decimated.

Moving on to the political situation of Skyrim. At present the nation is split into two parties as we all know. And contrary to most people's understanding this is not a new circumstance. Ulfric had brought Windhelm further and further from Imperial rule for about 25 years. It was in 4E 176~177 that Ulfric was forced from Markarth and the Empire rescinded on their agreement to allow worship of Talos in the Reach. It was then that the Stormcloak Rebellion truly began. THAT was the betrayal that truly set Ulfric into motion. The White-Gold Concordat may have started the grumbling. But it was the direct interaction between the Legion and Ulfric that sparked the war. This is strong evidence that Ulfric's motives have got little to do with Talos. Banning worship of Talos through the entire Empire should have been enough to bring him to the boiling point if that were the case. Ulfric's designs and actions seem much more PERSONALLY based. Talos is a convenient medium to gain the trust of the people. Something Ulfric needs. Let's not forget that at Markarth Ulfric had breton AND nord women tortured for information about where the reachmen they may have associated with would hide. He also ordered the execution of every man, woman and child strong enough to lift a sword that didn't join his milita. NORD men, women and children.

We can see how 25 years of separation from the Empire has affected Windhelm. The Argonians and Dunmer forced into slums. Granted they aren't executed. But they are clearly second class citizens. To have a truly accurate feel of how their lives must be you could look at the United State's own treatment of African Americans and Latinoes during the 40's through to the 60's. If a white man was accused of raping and beating a latino woman from the barrio, unless he was outright caught redhanded, he had a pretty good chance of getting off scott free. Ugly but true. The Windhelm situation can't be too different. The Dunmer struggle to survive in a city where they are almost certainly subjected to the potential for violence every day. Particularly if they step out of their designated community. "Why don't they leave if it's so bad?" Because they're poor. Plain and simple. The player can run across the nation in a day or two while wearing a suit of ebony and packing hundreds of pounds of equipment. The average person can not. They also need food and water and the means to survive the cold. Most Dunmer are simply STUCK in their bad situation. My point is that Ulfric has let the oldest city in Skyrim, and rumored to have been one with a grand tradition, fall into disrepair. Racism and murder are two of the first things you're exposed to in Windhelm. It's not a great place to live, basically. And all because Ulfric is too proud to accept aid from outside and too narrow minded to see beyond his need for conflict and aspirations for power. Imagine this man having control of the entire country.

Onto more current affairs. Ulfric challenged Torygg to a duel. Ulfric used the voice, something he claims should be used with restraint, to slam Torygg down. As the High King lay broken and bloodied, Ulfric finished him with his sword. Perhaps if the High King had been a GIANT or was winning I could see the use of the Voice coming into play. But Ulfric STARTED the duel with it. Frankly, this is the action of a complete coward. He wanted to kill Torygg to open the throne for his effort to take it over. Nothing more. Ulfric was not making a statement. He was serving his own political aspirations. As for the High King; Torygg KNEW he was going to die. But he accepted. His honor and the honor of the very throne of Skyrim was at stake. Some people say Torygg was young and stupid, too proud to avoid manipulation. That is not the case. Torygg accepted the duel to show Ulfric and Skyrim that the High Kings, even under Imperial Jurisdiction, were still men of SKYRIM. Torygg showed more strength and honor in his death than Ulfric has shown in his entire LIFE. The High King's death was more a sacrifice than anything. And it shows the resolve and power of the Nords more than any war could ever do. But again it shows Ulfric's lack of qualification to be High King. We learn through conversing with the people in Solitude that Torygg respect Ulfric and likely would have sided with him AGAINST the Empire had Ulfric approached him on it. But Ulfric didn't want to work WITH the High King to 'free' Skyrim. He wants to BE High King. Plain and simple.

The war in Skyrim is the result of years and years of manipulation. When the Thalmor captured Ulfric at the first Battle for the Imperial City, they tortured him. Specifically Elenwen tortured him for information. Though they achieved little of REAL value they did learn he was the son of the Jarl of Windhelm. Political minds as they have, the Aldmeri instantly realized how he could be an asset. Unwitting and uncooperative, but an asset. Ulfric was led to believe that the information he gave up under torture was instrumental in taking the Imperial City. Which was a lie. The Imperial City had fallen before Ulfric had succumbed to Elenwen's torture. But this was done to manipulate him into two beliefs: 1) He was already a traitor to the Empire - this was a mental conditioning trick that both the CIA and KGB would use to convince people to aid them further, the subject believing they were already doomed to a traitor's death should they be set free. 2) He had information and tactical awareness enough to recognize and break even the strongest of Imperial defenses. This is disinformation fed to him to encourage his view of himself as a major power. An asset that believes themselves useless is no asset at all. One that believes themselves the bane of your enemy is highly valuable. Particularly when disposable.

The Thalmor have manipulated events with Ulfric on two other occasions. The most notable is of course them insisting that he be executed at Helgen. I originally believed they were asking to have him turned over but upon further investigation we can find that Elenwen was insisting General Tullius kill Ulfric on Skyrim soil. Both to make an example of him and likely to make sure he didn't unknowingly reveal the Thalmor's influence on him during his trial. The other event took place after the Markarth incident. When the Empire reluctantly agreed to allow the worship of Talos in the reach the Aldmeri came to the Empire with threats of war. Stating the Empire was breaking the terms of the Concordat. It was that pressure that made the Empire renege on their agreement with Ulfric. Skip forward to the 'present' so to speak. Torygg's death turned Ulfric's 25 year rebellion from a minor inconvenience to a major conflict. Riften and Winterhold siding with Ulfric now and supporting his claim to the throne. And here we see the Thalmor suddenly exercising their authority. Multiple people will tell the Dragonborn that worshiping Talos in your own home was more or less not a problem. But when Ulfric's rebellion kicked into high gear it suddenly became the Thalmor's primary purpose to hunt down those doing it. This is not coincidence in timing. This was Aldmeri design. By taking people from their homes they fuel the war. The arrests by the Thalmor inspire the Stormcloaks to froth at the mouths for continued conflict and encourage the family members of those taken to join the Stormcloaks. Yet we see talos shrines here and there in Skyrim, untouched. In fact the great STATUE of Talos with a shrine at its feet with a man SHOUTING for people to continue worshiping Talos goes on unharassed by the Thalmor who have to have heard of it by now. But he's older and seemingly has no family. A priest. Arresting him wouldn't inspire anyone to join the Stormcloaks most likely. In other words the Thalmor only practices Talos hunting when it benefits them. Such as when it encourages a destructive war that burns through Imperial resources. Note that in 25 YEARS of Windhelm being under Ulfric's control and OPENLY allowing the worship of Talos the Thalmor never once told the Empire to shut him down or tried to do it themselves. They wanted him to stew and grow angry. They WANTED this rebellion.

Let's examine the outcomes of either side winning the war. Starting with the Stormcloaks. If Ulfric were made High King the pro-nord agenda would kick into full swing. Racial segregation would become more and more common. While the majority of Nords likely would not easily slip into mistrusting or looking down upon the other races, having lived and worked with them in their communities for so long, the younger generations would be more easily manipulated by a government pumping out that kind of message. And those born into it would be even more susceptible. As time passed Skyrim WOULD become more and more a place where Nords hold all the authority and other races are treated like second class citizens and viewed as inferior.

Economic struggles would begin to cripple much of Skyrim's populace. Without the ability to import and export from Cyrodiil and High Rock, as the Empire would almost certainly deny Ulfric's government the rights of trade - never recognizing him as High King - and the refusal to trade with Valenwood and Elsweyr, Skyrim's monetary system would be almost entirely reliant on the silver industry of Markarth. An isolationist economy can not sustain itself due to the simple fact that rich people like to get richer. And when your economy is based off the circulation of a limited resource entirely contained within a single realm of commerce every coin saved and every bit of shiny hoarded by someone seeking to increase their own wealth is a nibble at the economy. Eventually the rich would be insanely so and the poor would be extremely impoverished.

This new state of economic stagnation and decline would lead to many many nords leaving Skyrim to seek out lives in High Rock or Cyrodiil. And those that stayed would see a considerably poorer standard of living. Education would plummet. Upkeep on homes would suffer leaving many cities to follow in Windhelm's tradition of slowly crumbling away. Food, now being supplied solely by the limited lands fertile enough to grow considerable amounts of crops, would become an expense many families could no longer afford. Not everyone can hunt. Health declines as a result and the child mortality rates begin to go up. And with Ulfric on the throne the answer would almost certainly be "All those foreigners are using up our resources." Which would incite violence. Any non-nord would begin having to walk from shop to home quickly for fear of being harassed or attacked in transit. Then the real racial bigotry starts and nords begin attacking non-nords in their own communities. Rape, murder and stealing from the 'lesser' races would become a problem until one day a Dunmer or some other race is attacked and the community decides to defend itself. Which sets off a powder keg of racial tension. The resulting riots costing Skyrim hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of lives throughout the holds. Maybe even leading to outright rebellions.

The city of Whiterun and its surrounding farmlands become barely a step up from a labor camp as the farmers work relentlessly to grow enough crops to feed the nation and give up more than 75% of what they grow under the insistence of the High King, likely receiving little if any pay in return. Riften feels a similar pinch in their farming communities. But free from Imperial overwatch of any kind the guilds and families based in Riften become very active members of an underground movement that illegally obtains items from outside Skyrim. And then bilks the already poor public for these items. In turn they also smuggle out valuable materials and items from Skyrim to sell for exorbitant prices to the other provinces, further dwindling the limited wealth in Skyrim. Markarth suffers a fate like Whiterun. People working ceaselessly and for little to no pay as they try to mine further and further. Constantly seeking new veins of silver to bolster the national economy. The smaller holds of Morthal, Dawnstar, and Winterhold steadily find the importing of food to be an expense they simply can not fund. Reliant on government relief and hunting these areas begin to dwindle of people. Those leaving finding themselves in Solitude, Windhelm or Whiterun. Further stressing the resources of the major holds and creating a refugee situation outside their walls. Falkreath would likely see a considerable amount of growth. As the need for food arose the fertile areas around Falkreath would be settled and turned to farmland. With its proximity to the Imperial border independent traders would cross into Skyrim and settle in Falkreath selling goods from Cyrodiil on their own initiative. In the years to come Falkreath would become a hub of trade and travel. Making it successful DESPITE Ulfric's rule rather than because of it.

When the inevitable second Great War began the Dominion would press the Empire at Cyrodiil with a vengeance. The Empire, dug in deep and as ready as it can be, would give the Dominion one hell of a fight. But over time the lack of reinforcements from elsewhere would be a serious detriment. Unless the Empire were to make an agreement with the independent Hammerfall the Imperials forces in High Rock would be almost cut off entirely from the war. And I assure you Ulfric would NOT aid the Empire. Why? Because he believes the information he gave them under torture cost the Empire the Imperial City in the first war. And should he think to aid Cyrodiil the Thalmor would use that to blackmail him out of it. Ulfric would rather watch the world burn than be viewed as a traitor that helped the Dominion. And left to stand alone without reinforcements from the north, Cyrodiil eventually loses. The Dominion reels from their victory, bloodied and knee deep in their own dead. But only for as long as it takes to regroup and arm conscripts from Valenwood and Elsweyr. Not to mention bolstering their forces with the subjugated Cyrodiilians. Who WOULD fight for the Dominion once the Empire was officially beaten. Life under an Aldmer thumb would be preferable to no life in the eyes of a frightened peasant class. The Dominion masses on Skyrim's southern border and sends a fleet to traverse the Ice Fields. While Ulfric defends his throne in Solitude from the Dominion forces landing in the cold north and pressing inland the main body of forces march into the Rift. Riften is likely sold out by any number of corrupt affluent members of its upper echelons, accepting gold over honor and securing their continued power. Even if it does fight Riften stands alone with only Windhelm to offer reinforcements and likely fighting its own battle to retake an occupied Winterhold. Here the Thalmor exercise wisdom and hold back any attempts on the Greybeards other than a peaceful envoy. The Aldmer aren't stupid barbarians. They would approach, announce themselves and CORDIALLY inform the greybeards that they are going to take Skyrim but will make it their direct business to see that the greybeards are not disturbed. The Way of the Voice dictates that now the most dangerous men in Skyrim sit idly and hope to pass on their wisdom and eventually see the dark days pass. The armies of Skyrim would likely be the well fed and fit members of society but they can not match the numbers of the Dominion. Through the use of Valenwood Archers, Mages from Summerset Isle and Infantry tactics squeezed from uncooperative Legion survivors the Aldmeri Dominion eventually wipes Ulfric's monarchy into the land of memory.

---- Now let's examine the Legion's victory ----

With Skyrim once again unified the Legion sets to work trying to root out and extinguish the last flames of the Rebellion. For years the remaining Stormcloaks harass small caravans or lightly guarded camps. But without Ulfric inciting the crowd, and subsequently with the Thalmor being forced to back off on their hunt for Talos worshipers to avoid inciting an uncontrollable mob rising without the lead of their asset Ulfric, the Stormcloaks never again achieve the popularity they once had. Many would abandon the cause and head back home. Some would take to calling themselves Stormcloaks but behaving more like bandits than revolutionaries, justifying pillage and attacks on innocents as a necessary evil to fund the war they still believe they are fighting. Eventually the few remaining true believers would be forced to settle into ancient ruins, tombs and caves. Ironically living out a life much like the Foresworn.

With Imperial rule resettled we also see increased trade through the region as merchants feel safer returning to the north. Little by little Skyrim's economy would grow. And the post-war economy would thrive as merchants sold the excess materials gathered for the war effort across the Empire. Military implements, weapons - armor - etc, would be spread throughout the Empire leading to Legions trained and equipped faster and the excess being passed on to local militias, giving individual townships and cities a much better chance at defending themselves. Windhelm's steel industry sees a surge of wealth it has not experienced in nearly thirty years as the forges designed for wartime construction and the mines working on wartime schedules and expectations are given the task of equipping a growing Imperial Legion composed of Nord recruits. This influx of money into Windhelm begins turning around the city's state. Over the course of many years Windhelm enters a renaissance as the other races co-mingle with the nords more and more and the city itself is rebuilt.

As Winterhold and High Rock are able to establish regular lines of communication again more mages enter the college. With war looming the Imperials would certainly see the benefits of having more and better trained mages. With the guild gone the college would become the north's primary training ground for Imperial mages and battlemages. With Imperial support, Winterhold becomes more and more prosperous. Though resentment for the mages would likely continue as their experiments consistently scare the citizens half to death. Riften sees little change. Increased Imperial trade means increased wealth for the already wealthy. One notable change would be the quality of life for the lower classes. With Imperial law and an increase in communication lines going to and from the Empire alongside recruitment efforts the lower classes in Riften would have more opportunity to find profitable work. The thieves Guild would remain, however. But likely find themselves able to pick up covert work as scouts, runners and intelligence operatives for the Empire. Whiterun's loyalty to the Empire earns Balgruuf and his people a special place in the Empire's plans. Favorable decisions on spending and resource management see Whiterun go from a strong hold to a seat of considerable authority. Functioning as the center for Imperial Legion movements through Skyrim it eventually becomes one of the safest places in Tamriel to live. The farmers of Whiterun find themselves able to expand their lands and settle new farms as a result of the increase in protection. Whiterun's food economy becomes more successful than ever as Whiterun produce, mostly rich grains and long lasting cabbage, is shipped throughout the Empire. Life in Morthal and Dawnstar remains much the same, with some increase in economy and safety as the Empire settles defensive garrisons in the holds and to the north of them in anticipation of possible Aldmeri attack from the northern shoreline. Falkreath sees little change, growing somewhat by the benefit of Whiterun's success and its proximity to that hold's trade routes.

When the second war begins the Aldmeri Dominion will find the Empire tougher than before. The element of surprise lost when they attacked so suddenly in the first war, the Aldmeri find themselves up against entrenched and determined units of disciplined and well trained Imperials. Throwing hastily trained, and practically enslaved, units from Elsweyr and Valenwood the Dominion whittles away at the Imperial defenses. Steadily they fight their way into Cyrodiil. But, with the aid of reinforcements from the north and large numbers of steadfast Nords composing several legions, the Imperial forces match the Dominion pound for pound. As the Aldmeri push and punish the Bosmer and Khajiit forces to fight harder and harder they begin losing their control of the situation. Eventually the mixed units of Light Infantry, Nordic Infantry, Breton Mages, Valenwood Refugee Archers, Dunmer destruction conjurers, and remaining Khajiit and Argonian ambush units become too much for the Aldmeri to combat. Broken and bloodied the Aldmeri retreat south into Valenwood. At this time the Emperor denounces the White-Gold Concordat in its entirely and permits all peoples of the Empire to worship Talos without fear of reprisal. This hugely bolsters recruitment and allows the Legion to regain its manpower at considerable speed.

The client states of Anequine and Pelletine (Elsweyr) agree to a non-aggression pact with the Empire as the Legion forces amass on the southern border and prepare to attack Valenwood. This is the only way the Khajiit governments could defend themselves from a force as war-ready and well funded as the Legion at this time. When the Empire pushes south we see the result of years of Cold War between the two powers. When Imperial Forces begin to march into Valenwood the local Bosmer, after decades of being practically enslaved and treated as second class citizens at best, begin joining the Empire as volunteer soldiers. Bosmer forces under Aldmeri command begin surrendering and defecting. The hope of seeing their lands freed inspiring them to throw off the shackles of the Dominion's oppression. Only when the Empire approaches the Valenwood seat of power, Eldenroot, would they find true resistance. The Thalmor supporters and the rich upper class' personal soldiers amassed here and ready to fight resist the siege of the Empire with ambush and long range engagements for a long while. Eventually succumbing the the Empire's superior numbers and resources, Eldenroot falls. The supporters that instrumented the coup decades ago are arrested and likely executed publicly after brief trials. The slowing of Imperial forces at Eldenroot gives the Dominions time to send what forces they have to spare in the Summerset Isles and make a push to counter attack the Empire. However with the continuing supply lines from the united northern Empire and the lure of truly smashing the Dominion spurring huge amounts of support from Cyrodiil and Skyrim alongside the Bosmer volunteers and defectors, the Empire meets the Dominion's remaining forces and pushes them back to the sea.

What happens then? I leave to the writers of the Elder Scrolls.
 

Diisk

Member
Nords do, it's their damn land.
The imperials just want to own everything, they think they can call true nords fighting for their homeland traitors.
They would even try and execute a jarl without as much as a trial? That's disrespectful, at least ulfric fought the high king fairly, as the man being executed in solitude said. Such is the way of our people. The imperials need to go back where they came from. Also why can the thalmor come in and say you can't worship talos anymore? Lol the nords have the right to live how they want in their own country....
 

blue 468

Well-Known Member
oh my god not another one of these:eek:
 

Will Olmen

Member
oh my god not another one of these

These kinds of threads will always spring up for the same reason hardcore PETA members, anti-vaccination activists and Gun Control fanatics will never go away. People reach a foregone conclusion and then go online to find 2 things. 1: Information from a poorly informed bit of thinking that validates their own conclusion even if only partially or by manipulating other REAL facts. And 2: Like-minded people.

Folks like debating about stuff. Even stuff as transparent as vaccinations, gun rights and why you shouldn't sign up for a military being led by an ego-maniacal war criminal guilty of betraying an Empire he swore to and murdering NORD elderly, men, women and CHILDREN that is happy to watch his lands slip into poverty to fund his personal agendas and segregates non-nord populations in rights and responses.
 
Nords do, it's their damn land.
The imperials just want to own everything, they think they can call true nords fighting for their homeland traitors.
They would even try and execute a jarl without as much as a trial? That's disrespectful, at least ulfric fought the high king fairly, as the man being executed in solitude said. Such is the way of our people. The imperials need to go back where they came from. Also why can the thalmor come in and say you can't worship talos anymore? Lol the nords have the right to live how they want in their own country....
You are thinking in the short-term. What you say is opinion. Ulfric cheated by shouting. The Imperials owned Skyrim since the begining. They are only retaking it. The Thalmor are a political juggernaut. They have massive pull over the situation. They can do whatever, without fear or a military attack, provided the war in Skyrim continues. If Skyrim rejoins the Empire, the Empire at least has a chance. Should they defeat the Dominion, Talos worship would surely be restored.
 

samgurl775

Cerberus Officer
Nords do, it's their damn land.
The imperials just want to own everything, they think they can call true nords fighting for their homeland traitors.
They would even try and execute a jarl without as much as a trial? That's disrespectful, at least ulfric fought the high king fairly, as the man being executed in solitude said. Such is the way of our people. The imperials need to go back where they came from. Also why can the thalmor come in and say you can't worship talos anymore? Lol the nords have the right to live how they want in their own country....
Holy fail. First off, even though Nords have occupied Skyrim for hundreds of years, Elves were there first. In fact, the Palace of Kings in Windhelm was built by Elven slaves.

And why does there need to be a trial? He quite obviously killed the previous High King, and no, I don't think it's "honorable" to shout someone to the ground and then stab them.

I highly suggest you read the post above yours.
 

Diisk

Member
Holy fail. First off, even though Nords have occupied Skyrim for hundreds of years, Elves were there first. In fact, the Palace of Kings in Windhelm was built by Elven slaves.

And why does there need to be a trial? He quite obviously killed the previous High King, and no, I don't think it's "honorable" to shout someone to the ground and then stab them.

I highly suggest you read the post above yours.
all right, so I was wrong.
But if I'm not mistaken the man being executed in solitude for letting ulfric leave, said he bested the high king in fair combat.
Not sure if there's any other information on the besides the load screen saying he shouted him to pieces.
 

Xivia4

Active Member
It wasn't a full blown, drawn out story but instead 3 lines. He basically tells you that Ulfric used a savage shout on him and because of this it wasn't an honourable fight.
 

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