Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

DrunkenMage said:

Ivory said:

The Nords are people of Conflict.

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Which is why independent Skyrim, bringing back the old traditions is amusing.

For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. - Pocket Guide to the Empire

Stormcloaks are doomed to fail in the end, simply because it is Nordic nature. There is a reason High Kings were puppet rulers of Solitude. Even in TESO Skyrim is divided and has two Kings ( Not 100% on that, never played it. But I read somewhere on uesp that Skyrim was split and had two "High Kings" one in Windhelm and Solitude.

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This wouldn't surprise me. I haven't played the Ebon-Heart Pact but you do get to meet the Skyrim King when discussing temporary peace between the three factions to stop Molag Bal. (It goes just swimmingly). And the High King I've met is as thick-headed as most nords, but he actually seems like he can be reasoned with. Y'know, besides the "I should kill you where you stand for such insults!" When insulting him for being a baby and not wanting to go for Molag Bal instead of each other's throats.

(Personally while I love the Argonians I'd rather see the Dominion or the Covenant win the war, though we all know who actually wins it in the end.)

DrunkenMage said:

Arkay's Law prevents dead being raised, just need a Priest to perform the rites. It is why Necromancers hate Arkay and fight his priests.

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In Alik'r it's much different. They consecrate their dead yes, but from all the dead in the ocean, and the fact they don't consecrate criminals except the most dangerous of them? It's a risky thing in the Alik'r. They have three wards that protect the consecrated dead, and if Necromancers get them? Welcome to the Desert of the Undead. Redguards that kill their undead are dishonored and are considered disgraceful, less than human. Ironic that in times of the Planemeld, they were the Alik'r saviors.

DrunkenMage said:

High Rock, would do whatever High Rock does. Probably go back to bickering between their various rulers, and courts. Politics is something they love. According to Galmar, the Bretons might as well be Elves. (Probably the highest insult he gives?)

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While I love the bretons, yeah this seems to be their biggest weakness. Hell, High King Emeric made an alliance with the Orcs after refusing to marry another man's daughter at the time. (He married a redguard woman to help solidify the Covenant. Even though a forced marriage it's cute watching them interact). And that man lost his damned mind, slaughtering innocent orc civilizations and incurring the wrath of the High King and his Lion Guard. From my experience in two of the three factions

(Anyone not interested in the ESO lore, feel free to skip this bit)


Dominion's weakness is the same situation we have now, only the Thalmor of the 4th era and the Thalmor of the 2nd era are complete opposites.

Covenant's weakness is the political powers fighting all the damned time, being mostly manipulated by Vaermina and Necromancers, oh and Reachmen. Seriously, the Reachmen were vicious in the Second Era.

Ebon-Heart's weakness is there is too much tension between the three groups. Seriously, you could literally cut it with a knife.


(Also I hear rumor the tribunal will be in a future update and we'll get to meet Vivec himself. Would be kinda rad.)

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

The penitus Oculatus in skyrim were still intelligence officers, they should have been working on uncovering assassination attempts, as proven in "Breaching Security". They failed at that though pretty bad, and they wouldn't have destroyed the sanctuary if not for astrid's betrayal.

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Keeping an Emperor safe isn't easy, the Blades failed at that more than once. I think five Septim's died under their protection, or four.

They did quite well, better than the Blades at least. (Unrelated but, I found it rather odd they would include the Stormcloak held cities as ones that guy visits in checking security)

TheQahnaarin said:

We don't get an exact date on the college and synod, but everyone says the mages guild dissolved after the OC, so probably not 17 years after, which was when Titus took power.

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It is probably in the novels, I will check it out later. There was a lot of chaos before Titus took power, two major Cyrodiil Mage factions establishing would have at least required some stability.

TheQahnaarin said:

The Legion didn't do all that well actually. In Cyrodiil, the only battle they actually won was red ring. No where does it say they could hold them anywhere and the dominion reached the imperial city VERY fast.

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It took three years for them to get the Imperial City... Also In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

The advantage the Aldmeri had was surprise.

TheQahnaarin said:

According to Rise and Fall of the Blades, they did see the war coming and apparently warned the empire. It seems to me the blades and empire still cooperated, why would the blades carry out all the espionage work when they aren't working for anyone and have no purpose at the moment?

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They were never and arm of the Imperial Government, they may have cooperated, but the Blades were in it for themselves. They considered the Thalmor a threat to the Dragonborn they were waiting for.

"But even the Blades didn't see the Great War coming. We underestimated the Thalmor, and they destroyed us." - Delphine

TheQahnaarin said:

People consider Markarth to be the beginning, but Hadvar says their ranks only really swelled after Torygg died. Either way, they weren't in a position to march over to hammerfell to fight the Aldmeri.

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They had enough numbers to reconquer the Reach. That militia is considered the original Stormcloaks. I'm not saying they were in a position, it was just something to consider.

TheQahnaarin said:

Previously you said Cyrodiil was devastated. Hammerfell has been fighting more recently, so they are likely less recovered than Cyrodiil. Skyrim is probably weakened not too much more than either of those provinces, the civil war and dragons was not as destructive as the Great War, but I suppose that could be up for debate.

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Cyrodiil was hit very hard, Thalmor threw everything it could. Hammerfell was only devastated in the southern regions. Looking at the map, the Aldmeri would have most likely controlled from Taneth (sp?) and another city south of that to Stros M'kai (sp?)

TheQahnaarin said:

Redguards say a united empire could take on the dominion. Skyrim at the time was part of that empire. There is more bitterness right now between the empire and hammerfell than skyrim and hammerfell.

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Except Skyrim is in no position to strike at the Aldmeri Dominion, they require the aid of other provinces. The Legions are already in place, and as seen by the Imperial victory the Legion isn't planning on building an army in Skyrim. Only the Stormcloaks need to do that, which takes time.

TheQahnaarin said:

Of course people are poor, it's the Middle Ages, I'm saying the nords have the potential to get a well equipped army and navy together and supplied in not a large amount of time. Ulfric states numerous times he has plans for markarth's silver, for example.

On a side note, I find it very interesting what happens to High Rock if the Stormcloaks win.

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Not just people, but the Holds are pretty poor. Of course Ulfric has the potential to equip an army, but he also has to train them, establish governments, make Skyrim self sufficient. The Nords don't control all of the routes in the Reach, and the Stormcloaks still have to deal with the out of control bandit situation and the Forsworn. Before they can go invade anyway, they need to build ships (if they're planning an invasion by sea) Though invading by sea would be the worst mistake, the Nords have too far to travel and the Altmer are experts at naval warfare.

High Rock, would do whatever High Rock does. Probably go back to bickering between their various rulers, and courts. Politics is something they love. According to Galmar, the Bretons might as well be Elves. (Probably the highest insult he gives?)

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Well the Medes have had 5 emperors, Septims 22. So penitus Oculatus are 4 for five, and only a few Septims were assassinated. Some died in civil wars, one fell off a horse, one died in Akavir.

From the Great War:
"During 4E 172, the Aldmeri advanced deeper into Cyrodiil. Bravil and Anvil both fell to the invaders. By the end of the year, Lord Naarifin had advanced to the very walls of the Imperial City." The war started in late 171.

Yes, the blades and empire cooperated. The book says they realized the dominion had sights set on the empire. The blades must have tipped off the empire at some point. The dominion cut off all contact for 70 years, and the blades were doing espionage all that time. They may not have known when, but the empire had to have known it was coming.

Still, hammerfell is rebuilding and fortifying the south. Plus the stormcloaks are in the east, empire in the west. It likely wasn't tension between nords and redguards that stopped them from interfering.

I think I pointed out the stormcloaks aren't gonna invade the dominion for a quite a while. Ulfric was emotional from winning the war, what he said didn't mean immediately or ever.

High Rock is interesting because they don't want independence. I believe I read a book from online where a Breton is telling everyone how great Cyrodiil is. If High Rock is cut off from them, they may dissolve back into their city-states, or orcs/redguards/nords may claim some territory. If redguards and nords joined forces, they would likely hop on board. When Galmar calls them elves he's angry because he was expecting an ally in them. (There's proof the stormcloaks are open to non-Nord allies) Not that high rock declined help because they dislike skyrim necessarily but likely because they're still part of the empire (and Bretons don't want independence, they'd probably be okay with a hammerfell skyrim thing) and again, they're west, and stormcloaks are east.

Ivory said:

In Alik'r it's much different. They consecrate their dead yes, but from all the dead in the ocean, and the fact they don't consecrate criminals except the most dangerous of them? It's a risky thing in the Alik'r. They have three wards that protect the consecrated dead, and if Necromancers get them? Welcome to the Desert of the Undead. Redguards that kill their undead are dishonored and are considered disgraceful, less than human. Ironic that in times of the Planemeld, they were the Alik'r saviors.

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Yeah, it seems very interesting their culture.

TheQahnaarin said:

Well the Medes have had 5 emperors, Septims 22. So penitus Oculatus are 4 for five, and only a few Septims were assassinated. Some died in civil wars, one fell off a horse, one died in Akavir.

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I doubt anyone could have been able to protect Titus Mede II, too many wanted him dead.

TheQahnaarin said:

From the Great War:
"During 4E 172, the Aldmeri advanced deeper into Cyrodiil. Bravil and Anvil both fell to the invaders. By the end of the year, Lord Naarifin had advanced to the very walls of the Imperial City." The war started in late 171.

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The year 4E 173 saw stiffening Imperial resistance in Cyrodiil

Took until 174 until the Aldmeri were able to conquer the Imperial City. So yes, the Legions were able to hold out for some time.

TheQahnaarin said:

Yes, the blades and empire cooperated. The book says they realized the dominion had sights set on the empire. The blades must have tipped off the empire at some point. The dominion cut off all contact for 70 years, and the blades were doing espionage all that time. They may not have known when, but the empire had to have known it was coming.

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The Blades themselves mention "No one saw the Great War coming" not the Empire, not the Blades. I'll take the word of someone who was actually there, who fought both in the Great War and conducted espionage in Aldmeri Dominion lands.

The book states the Blades saw the Thalmor as a threat, which doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

The Empire can't prepare for a war for hundred years, the costs alone would be too high. Both in coin and the loss of authority with the Legions all confined on the border for too long. Also it wasn't like the Empire was completely defenseless there were Imperial forces on the Valenwood border. Intelligence from the Blades didn't exactly point to the Aldmeri flanking from hidden camps in Elsweyr.

TheQahnaarin said:

Still, hammerfell is rebuilding and fortifying the south. Plus the stormcloaks are in the east, empire in the west. It likely wasn't tension between nords and redguards that stopped them from interfering.

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Stormcloaks are on their own. As Ulfric puts it "Skyrim must stand alone, again"

TheQahnaarin said:

I think I pointed out the stormcloaks aren't gonna invade the dominion for a quite a while. Ulfric was emotional from winning the war, what he said didn't mean immediately or ever.

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The Stormcloaks plan to invade, Ulfric cares for songs. Ulfric and Galmar are pretty clear about their intentions of invading the Aldmeri Dominion.

This also creates a problem, if they're unable to take any action for quite some time. How can they be relied upon if the war would break out soon?

TheQahnaarin said:

High Rock is interesting because they don't want independence. I believe I read a book from online where a Breton is telling everyone how great Cyrodiil is. If High Rock is cut off from them, they may dissolve back into their city-states, or orcs/redguards/nords may claim some territory.

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Orcs are pretty pro Empire, especially in the Fourth Era where two Legions put themselves into harms way to save the Orcs. Nords won't try claim anything, the province is guarded by militia and a few soldiers. Redguards and Bretons would band together if the Nords ever tried to expand again.

TheQahnaarin said:

If redguards and nords joined forces, they would likely hop on board. When Galmar calls them elves he's angry because he was expecting an ally in them. (There's proof the stormcloaks are open to non-Nord allies)

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Expecting allies and making allies are two different things. Given the dialogue, it actually doesn't look like they asked for help. But more expected help, since Ulfric is merely asking if there was any news.

The Redguards and Bretons have made no move to even talk to the Stormcloaks, let alone join forces.

TheQahnaarin said:

Not that high rock declined help because they dislike skyrim necessarily but likely because they're still part of the empire (and Bretons don't want independence, they'd probably be okay with a hammerfell skyrim thing) and again, they're west, and stormcloaks are east.

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They didn't decline, they're just not doing anything. Which leads me to believe the Stormcloaks didn't directly ask for help.

Hammerfell and the Empire is pretty logical, the Redguards siding with the Stormcloaks doesn't benefit them. The Stormcloaks are in no position to attack the Aldmeri Dominion and the war could happen soon after the Civil War ends.

Stormcloaks are spread too thin after the war, and won't be in any defensive position until a lot more recruits come.

If the Imperials win, that is the combined forces of the Empire fighting the Aldmeri Dominion. Plus Hammerfell which would fight too.

If the Stormcloaks win and the Great War starts very soon, they can't reach the Aldmeri Dominion. So it could only be Cyrodiil and Hammerfell fighting the war.

Stormcloaks have so much more to deal with, they have to train their armies, build up enough soldiers. Deal with the out of control bandit situation, deal with Forsworn, deal with the remaining veteran Legionaries which Galmar believes will give them a very hard time, also the possibility of the Empire sending in a Legion to see if Skyrim can be reclaimed. The Thalmor could cause some problems still, there is the good chance the Thalmor have a few nests in Skyrim.

Lewsean said:

No lmao, most legion troops are Imperials no matter what... If it was purely nord vs nord do you really think they'd randomly generate the race? There'd be no need too..

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The legion is a army combined of all the races, Nord, Imperial, Orc and so forth but the legion also has been recruiting locally to make up for the lost of troops that joined the Stormcloaks. So yes there is Nord vs Nord and of course the other races also.

DrunkenMage said:

Edit: Raijin for your necromancer, the Empire does offer a supply of fresh corpses to Necromancers who have done the Empire a service.

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Now you have my attention. Tell me all about this supply of fresh corpse?

DrunkenMage said:

Which we know that people were executed for being associated with the Forsworn Uprising.

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And I never argued that point. Were NORDS of any age or gender cut down by Ulfric and his men? Somehow I doubt it. That wouldn't give him a very good reputation in his holdings would it? Nor would his men be up for it, since they No the only Massacre Ulfric can be accounted for is a massacre at Karthwasten which we don't have much information on. You'd think Rikke would have something to say about the supposed murdering of Nords at Markarth, since she gave Ulfric an earful about Karthwasten, but no she doesn't. Want to know why? Well, because it probably didn't happen. Ulfric definitely had Reachmen put to the sword there's, no doubt in my mind he did this, and since the Empire executes people for opening gates nowadays I'd suspect they probably would've done the same after some long hours of torture. and before you say anything the Torture machines in the Bloodworks are quite clearly not recently used.

DrunkenMage said:

Do you have anything that says they weren't? Anything that contradicts what happened? Someone saying "It didn't happen!" or another book stating the Bear of Markarth is just plain lies?

No you don't, yet you continue to argue so. Notice how on UESP the Bear of Markarth is under historical in books by subject. Why? Because no matter personal feeling, there is nothing that counters what is being said. Welcome to how lore is processed and accepted.

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So is every Lore book in the game just automatically correct if it doesn't have something that counters it? No it isn't and you're clearly very close minded to think so. There's a Lore book called "The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy" that states that Alduin is the Nordic Aspect of Akatosh which we know isn't true, since he is actually the first born of Akatosh. There's a History book called "The Pig Children" clearly racist and Biased and yet it goes under the section of historical text and haas nothing countering it. Its not all set in stone Drunken, everything is up for debate in the Elder Scrolls History and Lore. Which is what makes it stand out as a series.

DrunkenMage said:

You don't know if Nords weren't still in Markarth, that is your own little assumption. The Reachmen aren't all against Nords, the Forsworn now are. The Reachmen have always had a higher population in Markarth. Nords weren't that many, and the book states only the cruelest of landowners were killed.

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Please explain to me how the Nords would handle being conquered by the unruly Reachmen who hated them. Remember the Reachmen "Begrudgingly accepted their rule" so how in Talos' name would the Norsd integrate into
1.) A Society of people who hate them
2.) A Society of people who are considered savages by the Nords and who go against everything the Nords have been taught.
sorry but unless the Nords were being used as slaves I don't see them being in Markarth at the time of the Incident.

DrunkenMage said:

Braig's daughter was killed in his place, then he was thrown in jail. This was years later, the Nords must have been investigating it (Probably around the time Jarl Hrolfdir was killed by Forsworn).

Madanach has been in prison the longest, Braig who arrived later has been there the second longest. Notice how there is a gap, if these executions never took place Madanach wouldn't be the longest serving prisoner, he'd have some of his buddies.

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see argument 1 I never doubted the Reachmen weren't killed and exiled just the Nords.

Raijin said:

Now you have my attention. Tell me all about this supply of fresh corpse?

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In Cyrodiil, a few Necromancers who have served the Empire are given the corpses of criminals and traitors to use legally. This provides those who have acquired such a post with a fresh supply of corpses, most of them young, strong, and intact. - Corpse Preparation

This position granted to Necromancers would also extend to areas the Empire has a strong presence. The Imperium has no problems with the study of Necromantic science, and benefits the often misunderstood art.

The backwards Stormcloaks have no such appreciation of the powers of Necromancy, the Nords are quick to condemn what they don't understand. The Empire is open to all areas of study and research, not even the College of Winterhold is willing to fully endorse. They're not willing to upset the simple locals.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

And I never argued that point. Were NORDS of any age or gender cut down by Ulfric and his men? Somehow I doubt it. That wouldn't give him a very good reputation in his holdings would it? Nor would his men be up for it, since they No the only Massacre Ulfric can be accounted for is a massacre at Karthwasten which we don't have much information on. You'd think Rikke would have something to say about the supposed murdering of Nords at Markarth, since she gave Ulfric an earful about Karthwasten, but no she doesn't. Want to know why? Well, because it probably didn't happen. Ulfric definitely had Reachmen put to the sword there's, no doubt in my mind he did this, and since the Empire executes people for opening gates nowadays I'd suspect they probably would've done the same after some long hours of torture. and before you say anything the Torture machines in the Bloodworks are quite clearly not recently used.

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Truth of that isn't clear, except we know from the Book that what Ulfric apparently says is very much him. The Markarth situation happened twenty five years ago, and whoever killed for not aiding the Nords (Ulfric & Hrolfdir) was legal.

Why wouldn't his men be up to it? Nords have no problem with killing other Nords, especially those they believe to be without honor or being against their country.

Rikke wouldn't bring up Markarth, it happened before he was even leading a rebellion. Why would she even bring up something that happened when Ulfric was loyal to the Empire? Giving the Stormcloaks an earful after a recent massacre is different. One person's massacre is someone's glorious victory.

It doesn't matter if they're not "recently" used, with blood on it. Ulfric has them in his palace and his jail is called "Bloodworks" clear indication that Nords are not above torture.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

So is every Lore book in the game just automatically correct if it doesn't have something that counters it? No it isn't and you're clearly very close minded to think so. There's a Lore book called "The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy" that states that Alduin is the Nordic Aspect of Akatosh which we know isn't true, since he is actually the first born of Akatosh. There's a History book called "The Pig Children" clearly racist and Biased and yet it goes under the section of historical text and haas nothing countering it. Its not all set in stone Drunken, everything is up for debate in the Elder Scrolls History and Lore. Which is what makes it stand out as a series.

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Everything written is accepted, it's all lore. What is "correct" can come down to many factors, majority of lore is grey. There are two sides of coin to many things.

Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh. Just as the Eleven God Auri-El is an aspect of Akatosh. The Gods have many aspects, not all of them "good".

Alduin represents the "end of time" in his role as World-Eater, obviously some form of aspect to the God of Time. 'First born of Akatosh' just means he was the first creation.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Please explain to me how the Nords would handle being conquered by the unruly Reachmen who hated them. Remember the Reachmen "Begrudgingly accepted their rule" so how in Talos' name would the Norsd integrate into
1.) A Society of people who hate them
2.) A Society of people who are considered savages by the Nords and who go against everything the Nords have been taught.
sorry but unless the Nords were being used as slaves I don't see them being in Markarth at the time of the Incident.

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The Reachmen aren't savages, the Forsworn are. Many Nords don't care who rules them, you can't expect populations to simply pack up and leave, because it doesn't make sense in your mind as to why they would stay with any hate or mistrust.

You would be surprised, often it is safer to remain than leave everything behind. Dunmer in Windhelm are a prime example.

DrunkenMage said:

Truth of that isn't clear, except we know from the Book that what Ulfric apparently says is very much him. The Markarth situation happened twenty five years ago, and whoever killed for not aiding the Nords (Ulfric & Hrolfdir) was legal.

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Legality isn't the case here moral standing is. Neither Ulfric, nor would the Empire, butcher people so brutally. If this were truly the case for Ulfric why wouldn't he continue to do it and why do we see no evidence for his supposed butchery other than in the confines of a clearly biased book? Why don't people talk about it. People love to talk about Ulfric being a corrupt, selfish man only looking out for himself but they never seem to say anything about his apparent mass murders. Why?

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"Why wouldn't his men be up to it? Nords have no problem with killing other Nords, especially those they believe to be without honor or being against their country.[/quote]
Probably because these Nords are unarmed and not trying to kill them.

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"Rikke wouldn't bring up Markarth, it happened before he was even leading a rebellion. Why would she even bring up something that happened when Ulfric was loyal to the Empire? Giving the Stormcloaks an earful after a recent massacre is different. One person's massacre is someone's glorious victory.[/quote]
Why wouldn't she? The Nords who rid Markarth of the Reachmen are considered to be Stormcloaks. So again, why wouldn't she say such things to him? She loves to give Ulfric a hard time about his shortcomings why wouldn't she start talking about the Markarth Incident if it supposedly went down that way? It would be a pretty good recruiting tactic in my opinion.

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"It doesn't matter if they're not "recently" used, with blood on it. Ulfric has them in his palace and his jail is called "Bloodworks" clear indication that Nords are not above torture.[/quote]
it's actually called the Bloodworks because it was supposed to be under the Windhelm Arena that never got integrated into the game not because of torture. The Stormcloaks and most anodes I've met clearly are against torture. How recently the tools have been used is very important. We see in the room two racks both of them in the corner with cobwebs on them next to a bunch of crates, they appear to have not been used in years, and they certainly haven't been used by Ulfric's administration.

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"Everything written is accepted, it's all lore. What is "correct" can come down to many factors, majority of lore is grey. There are two sides of coin to many things.[/quote]
okay so this is clearly a grey area. Stop treating it like its black and white.

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh. Just as the Eleven God Auri-El is an aspect of Akatosh. The Gods have many aspects, not all of them "good".[/quote]
Even though the book clearly states that the. Nords who, y'know would actually know about Alduin and what he is, said he wasn't apparently he is.

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"Alduin represents the "end of time" in his role as World-Eater, obviously some form of aspect to the God of Time. 'First born of Akatosh' just means he was the first creation.[/quote]
Not sure if that's what Beth. Meant by "first born"

[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1444402, member: 8348"The Reachmen aren't savages, the Forsworn are. Many Nords don't care who rules them, you can't expect populations to simply pack up and leave, because it doesn't make sense in your mind as to why they would stay with any hate or mistrust.

You would be surprised, often it is safer to remain than leave everything behind. Dunmer in Windhelm are a prime example.[/quote]
Again explain to me how the Nords would fair in a society of people who ravaged and conquered their city probably killin plenty of Nord in their wake. My guess is not well.



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DrunkenMage said:

In Cyrodiil, a few Necromancers who have served the Empire are given the corpses of criminals and traitors to use legally. This provides those who have acquired such a post with a fresh supply of corpses, most of them young, strong, and intact. - Corpse Preparation

This position granted to Necromancers would also extend to areas the Empire has a strong presence. The Imperium has no problems with the study of Necromantic science, and benefits the often misunderstood art.

The backwards Stormcloaks have no such appreciation of the powers of Necromancy, the Nords are quick to condemn what they don't understand. The Empire is open to all areas of study and research, not even the College of Winterhold is willing to fully endorse. They're not willing to upset the simple locals.

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The Empires most common form of execution is death by decapitation. What good are corpses when they don't have their heads on?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

it's actually called the Bloodworks because it was supposed to be under the Windhelm Arena that never got integrated into the game not because of torture. The Stormcloaks and most anodes I've met clearly are against torture. How recently the tools have been used is very important. We see in the room two racks both of them in the corner with cobwebs on them next to a bunch of crates, they appear to haven't been used in years, and they certainly haven't been used by Ulfric's administration.

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TES at it's best. Inconsistency and things left out change how lore is interpreted. Torture is commonplace in all of Tamriel, the Nords have torture equipment same as other provinces. There isn't this thing that they're somehow above using torture.

The Nords have used torture for thousands of years.

DrunkenMage said:

TES at it's best. Inconsistency and things left out change how lore is interpreted. Torture is commonplace in all of Tamriel, the Nords have torture equipment same as other provinces. There isn't this thing that they're somehow above using torture.

The Nords have used torture for thousands of years.

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Sure I see that but it's clear the Stormcloaks are above it.


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Raijin said:

The Empires most common form of execution is death by decapitation. What good are corpses when they don't have their heads on?

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Common for those who are guilty of treason. Criminals die by hanging, starvation, thirst, poor health etc.

Headless zombies are good, they make less noise. Besides if you were any sort of Necromancer, you would be skilled in sewing flesh.

Go learn your craft. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Corpse_Preparation

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Sure I see that but it's clear the Stormcloaks are above it.


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From Ralof going "Gods a torture room!" ?

There is no evidence the Stormcloaks are somehow above using torture, it is used all over Tamriel.

Still using the book as a factual piece of evidence lol, grasping at straws here.

Defect computer hardware is a real pain. Glad to see I only missed 21 pages.

Are there still any Stormcloaks left, or can I spare myself from making the Stormcloak Jarls look bad (found some more NPC dialogue)?

DrunkenMage said:

From Ralof going "Gods a torture room!" ?

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No, from my knowledge of psychology, Ulfric would likely not want to torture people after being mercilessly tortured himself.

DrunkenMage said:

There is no evidence the Stormcloaks are somehow above using torture, it is used all over Tamriel.

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Please point me towards some Stormcloak torture rooms and maybe I'll believe you


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Mikulas Black-Blade said:

No, from my knowledge of psychology, Ulfric would likely not want to torture people after being mercilessly tortured himself.

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Ulfric himself does nothing at all but laze in his throne. Let's Galmar handle everything, while he just practices some speeches. After all charisma is the only positive characteristic he has.

Anyway;

"Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate."
- Rolff Stone-Fist

Those guys are aggressive and self-entitled. They could bash some skulls in the Gray Quarter and nobody would ever care. And admittedly, they probably won't get any dungeon for their interrogating either. Doesn't make that much difference though.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

No, from my knowledge of psychology, Ulfric would likely not want to torture people after being mercilessly tortured himself.

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We suspect Ulfric was tortured, most likely he was, but he was wanted as an asset.

Really? Do you have something that backs this up? I'm no psychologist, but isn't it possible that someone who has experienced great pain are indeed able to inflict the same amount in others or worse? Using what happened to them as the instruction how.

Anyone is capable of great harm.

Since we are going into psychology, Ulfric being broken by the Thalmor. Mind and soul, he broke and gave them the information they wanted (Though it was useless at the time he broke) could there not be lasting effects? Tamriel isn't big on psychology, so in a harsh environment where violence is the norm. Is he stable enough?

Ulfric's own views on how he justifies things "There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff."

From your psychological stand point, is that harmless or alarming?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Please point me towards some Stormcloak torture rooms and maybe I'll believe you

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Nearly every military fort, Windhelm has it, Riften has the hanging cages. Few other jails have things. Besides the whole physical torture, many prisons in Skyrim could be considered ways to enact psychological torture. Windhelm you have a small cell with water leaking on you constantly, Falkreath has the cell where you stand in shallow water.

If the Stormcloaks are so against torture as you say (Nothing to really back up that claim) why do they keep the tools? Why don't they say they're against torture and remove them.