Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Nords are people of Conflict.

Which is why independent Skyrim, bringing back the old traditions is amusing.

For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. - Pocket Guide to the Empire

Stormcloaks are doomed to fail in the end, simply because it is Nordic nature. There is a reason High Kings were puppet rulers of Solitude. Even in TESO Skyrim is divided and has two Kings ( Not 100% on that, never played it. But I read somewhere on uesp that Skyrim was split and had two "High Kings" one in Windhelm and Solitude.

Also, random note. Who else think that every race save for the Altmer, and Dunmer are idiots for not practicing cremation in a world where Necromancy is possible?

Arkay's Law prevents dead being raised, just need a Priest to perform the rites. It is why Necromancers hate Arkay and fight his priests.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Redguards are a smart people. They will recognize a war centuries ago means nothing if you can gain an ally against the dominion. Besides, by your logic, them rejoining the empire is even less likely due to the more recent betrayal of the WGC.

Put yourself in their shoes. Do you side with an Empire who is governed by a race that is credited with being very diplomatic, or the province that as far back as you can trace your history has fl*ffed you over more times than anyone else?

We betrayed them once, and can offer them money, treaties, whatever compensation. Nords have done so, so, so much more to harm them than every other race. You're also pretty poor and weak from civil war and dragons. They could just as very well invade Skyrim and steal some land.

Edit: Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal.

The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire.

Well we just found our solution, our Emperor dies and we just blame him. Ball's in your court now. ;)
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
What kind of problems did the Septims have? Over 400 years: Potema and the Akavir invasion? Potema was pretty bad, but the Akavir invasion didn't really affect to many people. The Tharn incident could just as easily happened to a Mede. Same with the Oblivion Crisis. Numerous sources refer to the Third Era as Tamriel's golden age. Fourth era has been pretty harsh for the empire.

Septim's had problems with themselves, wars between the bloodlines, the Elder Council gaining majority power, debts, loss of Imperial authority, some questionable Emperors. Uriel VII brought about what was considered a "golden age" since the days of Tiber.

Sure the Medes inherited a declining Empire but they haven't been successful at all really. You can argue they would have been better than the Septims during the Third Era but that's not really what we're talking about here.

They held the Empire together, and Mede was widely loved. They brought about the Penitus Oculatus which have acted well against many internal Thalmor threats, the Synod and College of Whispers is a brilliant political gain since both are busy competing against each other for Imperial favor to ever become a threat.

They couldn't provide any relief in Morrowind, and lost a powerful ally because of it

Morrowind was lost under Ocato and the Stormcrown Interregnum. Provide relief into Morrowind how? With an Empire of shattered resources trying to recover from the worst of the Oblivion Crisis/all the civil wars?

they didn't try or couldn't reconcile the Forebears and Crowns in Hammerfell

Not even the Septim's could fix that, it had been going on since the days of Tiber. The internal politics of a province can't just be mended because the Empire demands it, the Redguards have long often stated they're "Part of the Empire, but not subjects"

didn't get the Legion into shape

Lol? There were 18 Legions under Mede, they lost a good number of soldiers when Cyrodiil got overrun with undead, entire Legions being wiped out and the Imperial City itself besieged by thousands, if not millions of undead.

and then they basically rolled over during the coups in Summerset

Lost during Ocato and the Imperial Simulacrum...

Valenwood

Imperial forces defeated through espionage and expertly targeted attacks. They lost any hold in the entire Government.

and Elsweyr.

They left the Empire under Ocato... Titus Mede wasn't even in power when Elsweyr left.

It was following a pretty clear pattern and the Medes didn't do anything proactive about it. The Great War really shouldn't have been a surprise.

They were hit with Umbriel and all the undead... The Great War was a surprise even to the Blades (Who were operating within Aldmeri Dominion lands) No one saw the Great War coming. But of course the Medes should have known better than the people who were conducting espionage and gathering intelligence in Dominion lands.

Ulfric's militia beat the Forsworn once and that time he had to take Markarth. Markarth seems really defensible and I think I can remember an Imperial saying they'd like to see the Stormcloaks try to take this canyon. This time, a fully united Skyrim with an army would be fighting them out in the open

Forsworn don't operate "in the open" and Ulfric and his Militia defeated a fraction and sent the rest into the hills. the Forsworn and allied Hag Ravens have gained more power and they're willing to die for their cause.

and probably with the help of the Dragonborn.

Will most likely vanish after dealing with Alduin...

I don't think the Forsworn will continue to be much of a factor, with or without Thalmor.

Don't underestimate them, the Reachmen were able to conquer the Imperial City and become a Dynasty of Emperors...

Still there is more to espionage, the Thalmor will work to weaken Skyrim anyway they can. The Thalmor are skilled at what they do, the Empire can barely keep up with them, but at least they have some espionage ability. Some is better than none.

How does Skyrim make less sense for Hammerfell than the Empire? Two nations with the most skilled warriors and harshest climates, both suffered from the WGC, both hate the Thalmor and are at odds with the Empire, they're a perfect match

Because they hate each other, no one comes to Ulfric's aid. Not Hammerfell and not High Rock. There is a journal somewhere of a Redguard who blames the Stormcloaks for not aiding Hammerfell when it fought the Dominion. (Word of one person doesn't always mean everything, but it is still something)

The day Nords and Redguards fight together as two allied provinces, will be the most surprising thing ever. However following everything we know... they want nothing to do with each other. Majority of the Stormcloaks are against foreigners. Windhelm guards even consider the Orc Strongholds to be an affront to their people, you're not making many friends of other races.

You lack Battlemages, you lack espionage ability and you lack a naval fleet. You're not taking on the Aldmeri Dominion anytime soon, and that is the problem. The Second Great War could happen soon after the Civil War/Titus II dies.

UESP: "Under the Septims, Tamriel prospered and its provinces enjoyed peace and stability" there's your golden age.

Penitus Oculatus? Lol not really. Where does it say they've been effective against thalmor. Pre-war imperial espionage was done by the blades. And the PO sure did a bang-up job in skyrim eh? Synod and college of whispers were before Mede.


The Great War: "Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness..." The legion was not ready for war 100 years after Umbriel. Yikes.

According to UESP Titus got the the throne in 17. Summerset coup was 22. Valenwood in 29. The Medes still lost Valenwood, who cares how?

Umbriel was more than 100 years before the war. So if it takes the empire that long to recover from that, I guess the empire isn't instigating any wars with the dominion anytime this century. And you think the empires gonna be ready to go even after Titus is assassinated.

The forsworn number very little after the Markarth incident. Again what I meant was the nords don't have to siege a city this time, have you looked at forsworn camps? Not very many walls or gates.

The Stormcloaks formed after the markarth incident and didn't really get going until Torygg died. But sure no reason they couldn't have helped hammerfell fight off the DOMINION when they barely existed. Plus the journal is by an insane necromancer. Can't get much more reliable and unbiased than that.

Hammerfell is also in no shape to go help Skyrim. Their war with the thalmor left them in a similar state as Cyrodiil. Nothing of late suggests nords and redguards don't like each other. They share a common goal: not be bossed around by imperials and destroy the thalmor. Their cultures and ideals are very alike.

The nords were willing to aid Alessia (foreigner) to fight elves. And the Nords dislike elves and Beastfolk. No one in tamriel seems to care much for Beastfolk, and nords have always warred with elves. Nothing about redguards. They had one war, centuries ago with redguards. Pretty much everyone has fought everyone in tamriel so (again, including Summerset/valenwood and Elsweyr/valenwood). The nords who fought the Ra'gada were ones who had been displaced/enslaved by them.

Pocket guide was INCREDIBLY biased and written by the same imperials who think all nords are nothing but barbarians. In the past Cyrodiil has proven equally/more undivided.

Explain how skyrim is poor. They have minerals, timber, farms. They are overflowing with resources. Yes, the nords have a navy. You didn't see the Imperial navy in oblivion but it's there. Nords are obviously skilled sailors, they're based on Vikings for crying out loud. No indication of redguards having battlemages either, but won against the dominion.
 
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Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Giants have their own language and have the ability to trade with people, evident of a note (Telling people not to trade with a certain giant) and when you sold a giant someone's goat.

The painted cows is actually a reference to something written by MK. eventually we learned that if we left stuff out for the Giants, and painted this stuff brightly and with swirls (they love swirls) and stuck big signs up pointing to it all, they would simply take THAT stuff and not anything else and no fighting would be have to be done (not that what I have described was really fighting-- no one fights the Giants is the point). And that explains the Painting The Cows tradition, for as lazily-smiled as they are, so much that they seem that they wouldn't hurt a soul (ha!), the Giants eat meat and lots of it.

They get bounties if they've killed people or threaten travelers. Most times Giants are quite peaceful herding their animals. They can be reasoned with, and Mages could probably speak to them.


Giants may have their own language but they can be problematic at times, especially because of their size and strength. Some are good while others as assholes. Remember the giant in whiterun that was fighting with members of the companions on a farmers land?

Maven doesn't care, they leave each other alone. Others don't like them, besides maybe Maven who has mutual respect and possible that idiot Jarl in Falkreath who likes wealthy parties.

Rest of the Jarls don't like them, Tullius hates them.

Maven does care :) She like the rest of the nobles with an exception of Balgruuf was enjoying the luxury parties that the Thalmor was giving them.

Think it was with Erikur who mentions about lasting peace between the Thalmor and Empire.


"That's General Tullius himself. He can't stand Elenwen, but she insists that he attend these parties. Just to piss him off, no doubt." - Maven


The data doesn't agree. In fact General Tullius relationship status with Elenwen is positive; Confidant (2).

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bc180

"Elenwen is a formidable woman. She lacks for neither cunning nor ambition. Now that I think of it, she would have made a fine Imperial general."

Delphine has been able to survive for thirty years, they get some recruits. But they're no longer doing things against the Thalmor, they've gone back to being Dragonguard. They just care about killing Dragons now.

Yet the blades hasn't change. The organization it self is gravely ill and on life support. Under Stormcloak victory the Blades can recover from their wounds, and thrive.


You kill their leader and earn the lasting hatred of the Greybeards. I would call that being against each other, they don't have good things to say about one another.

To be fair the Grey beards are harboring a criminal. A mass murderer. Protecting him from seeking justice.

Paarthurnax even acknowledge that the Blades are in the right of not trusting him.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0003c575

"The Blades are wise not to trust me. Onikaan ni ov. I would not trust another dovah."

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0003c572

"Dov wahlaan fah rel. We were made to dominate. The will to power is in our blood. You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. But they do not. Onikaan ni ov dovah. It is always wise to mistrust a dovah. I have overcome my nature only through meditation and long study of the Way of the Voice. No day goes by where I am not tempted to return to my inborn nature. Zin krif horvut se suleyk.What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? "

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000428d5

"Here's the big picture. He helped Alduin enslave our ancestors. He may have betrayed Alduin in the end, but that makes him worse, not better. We can't afford to give Paarthurnax the opportunity to betray us in turn, and return to his old master. Paarthurnax was the author of many atrocities during the Dragon War - crimes great enough to be remembered for thousands of years. True, he turned traitor to Alduin and helped overthrow the Dragon Cult, but that does not excuse or expiate his previous deeds. Whether or not he has truly repented, or merely acted to save himself, justice demands that he pay with his life." - Esbern

With Alduin gone what makes you truly believe that he will return to his former days? After all Dragons true nature is to dominate.

The Greybeards can't stop Alduin, they don't even have the right Thu'um. They don't hand you power instantly because when you don't earn it, you abuse it. They mention it has been the downfall of past Dragonborns.

They are there to merely guide you. Though they do end up getting involved in the Civil War, and they agree that change must also come to the Greybeards. The Blades aren't changing.

They can't stop Alduin but they can certainly aid the Dragonborn. Arngeir wasn't making it easy for the Dragonborn, and was giving him a hard time while Alduin was burning down villages and killing people below. Even one of the Greybeard members had tell Arngeir to STFU and to let the Dragonborn see Paarthurnax already.


Stupidity brings me back, and anytime someone quotes me. I just have to respond.

c5c5u.jpg



The Justiciars are in Skyrim as part of the White-Gold Concordat, they arrived and caused the Markarth Incident. The Empire upholds the treaty, to be arrested for Talos worship you need evidence.

You're right. The Justiciars are in Skyrim because the Empire let them come as part of the WGC. At least were on the same page on that.


You're taking the word of the Thalmor? Their increased presence has everything to do with the rebllion. They're stirring up trouble, doing their inquisition which sends supporters flocking towards Ulfric Stormcloak. They're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks, from trying to keep him alive and sending supporters to him.




Well it seems Titus II is thanked for that, but he gets killed. Given the dialogue of a second war coming, it seems the White-Gold Concordat will be going bye bye.
What????
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Dragon Age is awesome :) Yes :sadface: We mages get a lot of hate in the world of Thedas.

Those bastards, us Mages should band together. Might create a lore discussion thread, where us Mages can debate about the various aspects of lore in Tamriel. Giants are an interesting study, but we can touch issues such as Necromancy and if Restoration is indeed a valid school. :p

Could debate in character, possibly something like this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

While not exactly like that, but a basic example.

Go play the game so we start up a dragon age debate :)
 

Ondolemar

Member
One of the problems people frequently experience with my persona is I never apologize and I never take it back. Unless this is Civ 5, then it's perfectly alright ;)

So let's see...

I can tell you're no fan of the Dwemer. Hehehe

Like all Elven races, the Dwemer leave much to be admired. It was very sad what happened to them. The Dwemer race, same all Elven races, should not be solely judged on character. There may have even been more to whatever went wrong between the Snowelves and Dwemer, although that's hardly the case.

I admire some aspects of the Dwemer and shake my head in bewilderment and some of their hobbies.

Why shouldn't we judge the Dwemer race base on their character? You just did it with the Nords so why can't I do it with the Dwemer whom you have such high respects for? Theirs nothing more other than the fact that the Dwemer took an advantage of a race who came to them for help. Instead of help they turned them into slaves, and blinded them.


Only because of the Nords action's towards them. The problem with the later day Snowelves is they became dependent on the Dwemer, the Dwemer started making all the decisions for them, so, the Dwemer did whatever they wanted with them because the Snowelves traded they independence for security.

Nords on the other hand, wiped them out and enslaved the Snowelves over hatred. Had the two of them worked out their problems the Dwemer need never have gotten involved, and indeed, they didn't. Dwemer as a civ never wanted to deal with other people's problems, like introverts. Nords are the exact opposite and Snowelves whatever they were became lost somewhere in the middle.

It's like the old saying goes, "If you're going to live under my roof, you live by my rules." Which can lead to abuse sure, but it's their house dammit. And the Nords, being the fine instigators that they are, started this mess. Oh shoot, what in the hell do you think would have happened had the Elves tried to put a colony on Atmora huh? Yeah. Thought so.
 

Ondolemar

Member
Dragon Age is awesome :) Yes :sadface: We mages get a lot of hate in the world of Thedas.

Those bastards, us Mages should band together. Might create a lore discussion thread, where us Mages can debate about the various aspects of lore in Tamriel. Giants are an interesting study, but we can touch issues such as Necromancy and if Restoration is indeed a valid school. :p

Could debate in character, possibly something like this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

While not exactly like that, but a basic example.

Go play the game so we start up a dragon age debate :)


Getting bored trying to resolve all of Skyrim's ills. Perhaps I shall check out this "Age of Dragons" game you keep going on about. Which one though? Isn't there like 3 of 'em now?

UPDATE: MUHAHAHAHA I'll be the "Inquisitor"

My God Jim, the graphics are excellently excellent.

 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Only because of the Nords action's towards them. The problem with the later day Snowelves is they became dependent on the Dwemer, the Dwemer started making all the decisions for them, so, the Dwemer did whatever they wanted with them because the Snowelves traded they independence for security.

Nords on the other hand, wiped them out and enslaved the Snowelves over hatred. Had the two of them worked out their problems the Dwemer need never have gotten involved, and indeed, they didn't. Dwemer as a civ never wanted to deal with other people's problems, like introverts. Nords are the exact opposite and Snowelves whatever they were became lost somewhere in the middle.

It's like the old saying goes, "If you're going to live under my roof, you live by my rules." Which can lead to abuse sure, but it's their house dammit. And the Nords, being the fine instigators that they are, started this mess. Oh shoot, what in the hell do you think would have happened had the Elves tried to put a colony on Atmora huh? Yeah. Thought so.


The Nords wouldn't had done what they did if the snow elves didn't attack them first.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Getting bored trying to resolve all of Skyrim's ills. Perhaps I shall check out this "Age of Dragons" game you keep going on about. Which one though? Isn't there like 3 of 'em now?

UPDATE: MUHAHAHAHA I'll be the "Inquisitor"

My God Jim, the graphics are excellently excellent.



If you're interested in the storyline aspects of rp games then yes. I would recommend getting involved with Dragon Age. IMO it is by far better than the Elders scrolls game....that is just me.

I've been thinking of taking a break from Skyrim for a while, and getting back to the Dragon Age scene. I know that the entire month of November I'm going to dedicate DA:I by only playing Dragon age games :) It would be interesting.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
UESP: "Under the Septims, Tamriel prospered and its provinces enjoyed peace and stability" there's your golden age.

Besides Hammerfell, the rest of the Empire was peaceful and prosperous under the Medes. As for the Septim's, that would be a matter for debate.

Penitus Oculatus? Lol not really. Where does it say they've been effective against thalmor.

In the TES Novels, they were actively against the Thalmor. They also were quite effective, Lol yes really.

Pre-war imperial espionage was done by the blades.

The Blades went off and did their own thing, while they still did espionage they weren't an arm of the Imperial Government.

And the PO sure did a bang-up job in skyrim eh?

That was the Imperial bodyguards, and actually they did do a pretty good job. They had nearly wiped out the entire Dark Brotherhood (Save for the player who saved two others)

Synod and college of whispers were before Mede.

No they weren't. They came out of the fall of the Mages Guild and around Titus' ascension.

The Great War: "Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness..." The legion was not ready for war 100 years after Umbriel. Yikes.

Yet that Empire still stands, and the Legions did quite well during the war. Military weakness depends on the Emperor, not the dynasty. Obviously whoever was prior to Titus II wasn't military focused.

According to UESP Titus got the the throne in 17. Summerset coup was 22. Valenwood in 29. The Medes still lost Valenwood, who cares how?

Doesn't really matter, the Empire was still gathering itself. It was extremely weakened from the Oblivion Crisis and Stormcrown Interregnum.

Umbriel was more than 100 years before the war. So if it takes the empire that long to recover from that, I guess the empire isn't instigating any wars with the dominion anytime this century. And you think the empires gonna be ready to go even after Titus is assassinated.

I never said it takes that long to recover, you said the Empire should have known. No one expected the Great War, not even the Blades.

The forsworn number very little after the Markarth incident. Again what I meant was the nords don't have to siege a city this time, have you looked at forsworn camps? Not very many walls or gates.

They've taken over forts, and their camps are easily moved. The point is, the Forsworn do not fight openly. They do hit and run tactics, it'd take a long time to effectively remove them.

The Stormcloaks formed after the markarth incident and didn't really get going until Torygg died. But sure no reason they couldn't have helped hammerfell fight off the DOMINION when they barely existed. Plus the journal is by an insane necromancer. Can't get much more reliable and unbiased than that.

The Stormcloaks were going for years, having skrimishes between the Holds. While I'm not saying her word is the bible, it is still something to consider.

Hammerfell is also in no shape to go help Skyrim. Their war with the thalmor left them in a similar state as Cyrodiil.

Hammerfell has had sometime to recover also.

Nothing of late suggests nords and redguards don't like each other. They share a common goal: not be bossed around by imperials and destroy the thalmor. Their cultures and ideals are very alike.

They don't share a common goal, the Redguards never had a goal of "Not being bossed by Imperials" they never were "bossed around" their treaty ensured that. They considered themselves "part of the Empire, but not a subject"

The Redguards seem to believe they can destroy the Aldmeri Dominion with the Empire.

Orcs also share a common warrior culture, doesn't mean the Nords liked them. Nations having similar culture doesn't mean they become allies, more often than not they become enemies fighting for dominance.

The nords were willing to aid Alessia (foreigner) to fight elves.

The Nords were expanding, and they aided because they were on their crusade against elves.

And the Nords dislike elves and Beastfolk. No one in tamriel seems to care much for Beastfolk, and nords have always warred with elves. Nothing about redguards. They had one war, centuries ago with redguards. Pretty much everyone has fought everyone in tamriel so (again, including Summerset/valenwood and Elsweyr/valenwood). The nords who fought the Ra'gada were ones who had been displaced/enslaved by them.

Nords dislike everyone. Redguards and the Nords have fought two major wars and many battles, and they've never once allied together. Besides, as the book "The Great War" mentions the Redguards are quoted to saying they can destroy the Aldmeri with the Empire.

Pocket guide was INCREDIBLY biased and written by the same imperials who think all nords are nothing but barbarians. In the past Cyrodiil has proven equally/more undivided.

Pocket Guide still has some truth to it, the Nords have often been undivided and often dissolve into Hold/Clan wars.

Cyrodiil gets divided, yes. But that happens when an Empire falls.

Explain how skyrim is poor. They have minerals, timber, farms. They are overflowing with resources.

Skyrim is poor from Civil War, that takes a large toll on resources. They're not "overflowing with resources" if you actually took the time to listen to people, many citizens are starving and supplies are extremely hard to come by. Between recovering from the war and dragons, Skyrim isn't wealthy. Many Jarls all comment about the lack of wealth and stockpiles, Windhelm included.

Yes, the nords have a navy. You didn't see the Imperial navy in oblivion but it's there. Nords are obviously skilled sailors, they're based on Vikings for crying out loud.

The Nords do not have a navy, they have merchant vessels, not military. The Imperial navy is mentioned quite often, the Nords being skilled sailors doesn't mean they have a military navy. It doesn't matter if they're "based on vikings" they have no military ships. Only trade vessels, and majority of them are from out of province.

No indication of redguards having battlemages either, but won against the dominion.

They didn't "win", they fought to a standstill until the Dominion decided to withdraw, signing a treaty with the Redguards. Also the Aldmeri Dominion was extremely weakened from Red Ring.

Unless you defeat Summerset Isle, you haven't won against the Dominion.

Giants may have their own language but they can be problematic at times, especially because of their size and strength. Some are good while others as assholes. Remember the giant in whiterun that was fighting with members of the companions on a farmers land?

Some do that, doesn't mean they all are. Be like comparing all Nords from how Skald behaves.


Maven does care :) She like the rest of the nobles with an exception of Balgruuf was enjoying the luxury parties that the Thalmor was giving them.

The other Jarls don't like the Thalmor either, except maybe the guy from Falkreath. Enjoying parties doesn't mean anything, Elenwen spends large amounts of money on them. I could hate you, but still enjoy being served good food and drinks, while we both lie and say how good it is to see each other.


The data doesn't agree. In fact General Tullius relationship status with Elenwen is positive; Confidant (2).

I wouldn't take that to heart, Ulfric is apparently friends with an Argonian who celebrates when he gets killed.


"Elenwen is a formidable woman. She lacks for neither cunning nor ambition. Now that I think of it, she would have made a fine Imperial general."

Respecting your enemy, something you should learn. Never underestimate them, respect their ability. Many historical Military leaders have respected their foe.


Yet the blades hasn't change. The organization it self is gravely ill and on life support. Under Stormcloak victory the Blades can recover from their wounds, and thrive.

Nothing indicates they're expecting any problems. Under Stormcloak victory, you simply remove the Empire and any counter-espionage protection it may have brought.

To be fair the Grey beards are harboring a criminal. A mass murderer. Protecting him from seeking justice.

Paarthurnax even acknowledge that the Blades are in the right of not trusting him.

With Alduin gone what makes you truly believe that he will return to his former days? After all Dragons true nature is to dominate.

The Septim's protected him, not just the Greybeards. Paarthurnax is far more useful than the Blades, he's spent thousands of years sitting on a mountain mediating the way of the voice... Some would call that time served.


They can't stop Alduin but they can certainly aid the Dragonborn. Arngeir wasn't making it easy for the Dragonborn, and was giving him a hard time while Alduin was burning down villages and killing people below. Even one of the Greybeard members had tell Arngeir to STFU and to let the Dragonborn see Paarthurnax already.

Exactly another Greybeard, one doesn't represent all. They're all Greybeards and each a Master.


You're right. The Justiciars are in Skyrim because the Empire let them come as part of the WGC. At least were on the same page on that.

Justiciars aren't the worst thing, it is what the Thalmor aren't showing in public that is the issue.



According to every source in game, Titus II is the reason for the White-Gold Concordat. With his death, could lead to the removal of the treaty and war with the Dominion.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Go play the game so we start up a dragon age debate :)

Well since we're on a Skyrim forums, we could debate aspects of TES in character. All we do is debate about the Civil War :p we could turn that into other things. After all, in this thread we have touched a wide array of lore already.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Some do that, doesn't mean they all are. Be like comparing all Nords from how Skald behaves.

I generally leave the windhelm giants alone because they've saved my ass several occasions... from dragon attacks to menacing rogue vampires, and Dawnguard hunters.


The other Jarls don't like the Thalmor either, except maybe the guy from Falkreath. Enjoying parties doesn't mean anything, Elenwen spends large amounts of money on them. I could hate you, but still enjoy being served good food and drinks, while we both lie and say how good it is to see each other.


Elisif seems to love the Thalmor a lot considering the fact that they shower her with luxury.

Elisif2_zps2e02ddf7.jpg


I wouldn't take that to heart, Ulfric is apparently friends with an Argonian who celebrates when he gets killed.


Ulfric made some good friends and made some bad ones too.

Respecting your enemy, something you should learn. Never underestimate them, respect their ability. Many historical Military leaders have respected their foe.


I actually agree to this :)

Nothing indicates they're expecting any problems. Under Stormcloak victory, you simply remove the Empire and any counter-espionage protection it may have brought.

The Empire turned their backs on the Blades so it's only common sense that they would benefit a lot more under Stormcloak victory. Why would the Empire care nor willing to protect an organization that they threw away to the Thalmor?

The Septim's protected him, not just the Greybeards. Paarthurnax is far more useful than the Blades, he's spent thousands of years sitting on a mountain mediating the way of the voice... Some would call that time served.

I agree. Paarthurnax is far more useful than the blades... but within all honesty. what makes you believe that he wont return back to his precious existence? To dominate man? Even he admit through his dialogue that not a day goes by where he doesn't think about returning. It's called relapse.


Exactly another Greybeard, one doesn't represent all. They're all Greybeards and each a Master.

Arngeir is a representative to the greybeards considering the fact that he is able to speak without making the world tremble.


Justiciars aren't the worst thing, it is what the Thalmor aren't showing in public that is the issue.

For the people in Skyrim, yes. The very moment that the Justiciar's feet touched Skyrim's soil was the worst thing that could happen to the people. Just look at the results.


According to every source in game, Titus II is the reason for the White-Gold Concordat. With his death, could lead to the removal of the treaty and war with the Dominion.

I thought the Elder council is the true leaders of the Empire? If the Emperor dies under circumstances don't the Elder council elect a new one? Don't they have an election period? I assume Titus Mede II has no children. How does null the White-Gold Concordat if Titus Mede II dies? The Empire still lives once he parish.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
I have to admit these discussions are pretty fun, I'm kind of surprised how the civil war has lead us to cover lore from all over the place.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I generally leave the windhelm giants alone because they've saved my ass several occasions... from dragon attacks to menacing rogue vampires, and Dawnguard hunters.

Giants are very interesting, according to MK they are actually from Atmora and are related to the Nords. Which interestingly, they do have the ears of an elf, and the ridges of an Orc. But the facial structure seems to be Nordic.


Elisif seems to love the Thalmor a lot considering the fact that they shower her with luxury.

Politics, liking a party doesn't mean liking the Thalmor. No one really likes the Thalmor, Thalmor don't even like other Thalmor.

Ulfric made some good friends and made some bad ones too.

Still, relationships in game are more game play mechanics than anything else. It is well established Tullius doesn't like the Thalmor, considering they even made him almost want to side with the Stormcloaks.


I actually agree to this :)

So you should, while we all hate the Thalmor. They are extremely effective in their abilities, not letting emotion or the truth stand in their way. They're playing us both, while we continue to fight each other they regain strength.


The Empire turned their backs on the Blades so it's only common sense that they would benefit a lot more under Stormcloak victory. Why would the Empire care nor willing to protect an organization that they threw away to the Thalmor?

The Empire doesn't openly acknowledge them, in fact there is dialogue between Esbern and Delphine saying that if the Empire could acknowledge their existence, they'd all have reason to celebrate.

The Blades were effectively destroyed during the Great War, their disbandment was a small price to pay. Especially since they god damn failed all of us, Nords and Imperials alike. We would have been prepared if the Blades hadn't underestimated the Thalmor and not seen them preparing for war.

Their arrogance has cost the lives of many.


I agree. Paarthurnax is far more useful than the blades... but within all honesty. what makes you believe that he wont return back to his precious existence? To dominate man? Even he admit through his dialogue that not a day goes by where he doesn't think about returning. It's called relapse.

Except he's had that chance for thousands of years, while Alduin was trapped in some time vortex of doom. Even if he was to try dominate mankind, he isn't like Alduin who can't be killed. Paarthurnax can be killed.

Also Paarthurnax seems to have put his nature over the dragons, which he plans to dominate them with 'The Way of the Voice'


Arngeir is a representative to the greybeards considering the fact that he is able to speak without making the world tremble.

But he does relent, and they do change. They involve themselves in the politics. As for Delphine's comment about what would have become of Tiber Septim, lore surrounding those events actually credit the Greybeards with sending him towards his destiny in the South.


For the people in Skyrim, yes. The very moment that the Justiciar's feet touched Skyrim's soil was the worst thing that could happen to the people. Just look at the results.

Which was limited, as harsh at it sounds. The Nords have known the dangers for nearly thirty years, and we can see the Justiciars actions are recent. The dead worshipers we come across, the prisoners. They're recent activities. It used to take the Thalmor Justiciars seven days to finally bag and tag a Nord who went on about Talos in the open.


I thought the Elder council is the true leaders of the Empire?

It used to be, they have power that shouldn't be underestimated. But by all accounts, it was Titus II's actions that chose to put in place the White-Gold Concordat.

Even if it was more than him, they actually require him to remove it. He has the power of veto (Going by Septims, obviously there could have been changes after the Prime Minister was killed who was the second most powerful man in the Empire next to Titus the first.)

If the Emperor dies under circumstances don't the Elder council elect a new one?

It gets ruled by the leader of the Elder Council, until such time as they can elect a new ruler. Which becomes the Potentate.

Don't they have an election period?

If there is an heir, it'd be like Skyrim where the crowning of the ruler is formality.

I assume Titus Mede II has no children.

It is a very big if, one of the major to do lists for any Dynasty is to make babies. Titus II has had probably sixty years, judging by how old he looks, maybe more.

How does null the White-Gold Concordat if Titus Mede II dies? The Empire still lives once he parish.

"Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take." - Astrid on why the Emperor cancelled his visit to Skyrim.

It seems as if Titus II doesn't want to involve himself in hostilities, and the White-Gold Concordat is directly him. No one else seems to be mentioned, only Titus II. They need his vote to remove the WGC, but judging by the dialogue, it seems he's unwilling to take any direct role in war.

The Legion is most likely ready, just politics is holding them back.

The Empire still lives on yes, an Empire on the brink of war. The Thalmor are behind the Stormcloak rebellion (We all know this, no point denying it) they're the ones who are stirring up problems. Should the Emperor be killed in what appears to be a result of the Civil War. Which the Empire firmly believes is the Thalmor's doing in the first place...

We're going to war, we're gonna get some, and we're going to send these elven bastards to whichever hell they believe in.

Never underestimate the Empire's desire to conquer everything, especially when they've already done it before.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I have to admit these discussions are pretty fun, I'm kind of surprised how the civil war has lead us to cover lore from all over the place.

It is interesting how our debates do somehow take us all over the place in lore. When I started out in this debate, I knew next to nothing about TES lore. I would get my ass handed to me, and generally just agreed or built upon the other Imperial supporter's arguments.
 

TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
UESP: "Under the Septims, Tamriel prospered and its provinces enjoyed peace and stability" there's your golden age.

Besides Hammerfell, the rest of the Empire was peaceful and prosperous under the Medes. As for the Septim's, that would be a matter for debate.

Penitus Oculatus? Lol not really. Where does it say they've been effective against thalmor.

In the TES Novels, they were actively against the Thalmor. They also were quite effective, Lol yes really.

Pre-war imperial espionage was done by the blades.

The Blades went off and did their own thing, while they still did espionage they weren't an arm of the Imperial Government.

And the PO sure did a bang-up job in skyrim eh?

That was the Imperial bodyguards, and actually they did do a pretty good job. They had nearly wiped out the entire Dark Brotherhood (Save for the player who saved two others)

Synod and college of whispers were before Mede.

No they weren't. They came out of the fall of the Mages Guild and around Titus' ascension.

The Great War: "Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness..." The legion was not ready for war 100 years after Umbriel. Yikes.

Yet that Empire still stands, and the Legions did quite well during the war. Military weakness depends on the Emperor, not the dynasty. Obviously whoever was prior to Titus II wasn't military focused.

According to UESP Titus got the the throne in 17. Summerset coup was 22. Valenwood in 29. The Medes still lost Valenwood, who cares how?

Doesn't really matter, the Empire was still gathering itself. It was extremely weakened from the Oblivion Crisis and Stormcrown Interregnum.

Umbriel was more than 100 years before the war. So if it takes the empire that long to recover from that, I guess the empire isn't instigating any wars with the dominion anytime this century. And you think the empires gonna be ready to go even after Titus is assassinated.

I never said it takes that long to recover, you said the Empire should have known. No one expected the Great War, not even the Blades.

The forsworn number very little after the Markarth incident. Again what I meant was the nords don't have to siege a city this time, have you looked at forsworn camps? Not very many walls or gates.

They've taken over forts, and their camps are easily moved. The point is, the Forsworn do not fight openly. They do hit and run tactics, it'd take a long time to effectively remove them.

The Stormcloaks formed after the markarth incident and didn't really get going until Torygg died. But sure no reason they couldn't have helped hammerfell fight off the DOMINION when they barely existed. Plus the journal is by an insane necromancer. Can't get much more reliable and unbiased than that.

The Stormcloaks were going for years, having skrimishes between the Holds. While I'm not saying her word is the bible, it is still something to consider.

Hammerfell is also in no shape to go help Skyrim. Their war with the thalmor left them in a similar state as Cyrodiil.

Hammerfell has had sometime to recover also.

Nothing of late suggests nords and redguards don't like each other. They share a common goal: not be bossed around by imperials and destroy the thalmor. Their cultures and ideals are very alike.

They don't share a common goal, the Redguards never had a goal of "Not being bossed by Imperials" they never were "bossed around" their treaty ensured that. They considered themselves "part of the Empire, but not a subject"

The Redguards seem to believe they can destroy the Aldmeri Dominion with the Empire.

Orcs also share a common warrior culture, doesn't mean the Nords liked them. Nations having similar culture doesn't mean they become allies, more often than not they become enemies fighting for dominance.

The nords were willing to aid Alessia (foreigner) to fight elves.

The Nords were expanding, and they aided because they were on their crusade against elves.

And the Nords dislike elves and Beastfolk. No one in tamriel seems to care much for Beastfolk, and nords have always warred with elves. Nothing about redguards. They had one war, centuries ago with redguards. Pretty much everyone has fought everyone in tamriel so (again, including Summerset/valenwood and Elsweyr/valenwood). The nords who fought the Ra'gada were ones who had been displaced/enslaved by them.

Nords dislike everyone. Redguards and the Nords have fought two major wars and many battles, and they've never once allied together. Besides, as the book "The Great War" mentions the Redguards are quoted to saying they can destroy the Aldmeri with the Empire.

Pocket guide was INCREDIBLY biased and written by the same imperials who think all nords are nothing but barbarians. In the past Cyrodiil has proven equally/more undivided.

Pocket Guide still has some truth to it, the Nords have often been undivided and often dissolve into Hold/Clan wars.

Cyrodiil gets divided, yes. But that happens when an Empire falls.

Explain how skyrim is poor. They have minerals, timber, farms. They are overflowing with resources.

Skyrim is poor from Civil War, that takes a large toll on resources. They're not "overflowing with resources" if you actually took the time to listen to people, many citizens are starving and supplies are extremely hard to come by. Between recovering from the war and dragons, Skyrim isn't wealthy. Many Jarls all comment about the lack of wealth and stockpiles, Windhelm included.

Yes, the nords have a navy. You didn't see the Imperial navy in oblivion but it's there. Nords are obviously skilled sailors, they're based on Vikings for crying out loud.

The Nords do not have a navy, they have merchant vessels, not military. The Imperial navy is mentioned quite often, the Nords being skilled sailors doesn't mean they have a military navy. It doesn't matter if they're "based on vikings" they have no military ships. Only trade vessels, and majority of them are from out of province.

No indication of redguards having battlemages either, but won against the dominion.

They didn't "win", they fought to a standstill until the Dominion decided to withdraw, signing a treaty with the Redguards. Also the Aldmeri Dominion was extremely weakened from Red Ring.

Unless you defeat Summerset Isle, you haven't won against the Dominion.

Giants may have their own language but they can be problematic at times, especially because of their size and strength. Some are good while others as assholes. Remember the giant in whiterun that was fighting with members of the companions on a farmers land?

Some do that, doesn't mean they all are. Be like comparing all Nords from how Skald behaves.


Maven does care :) She like the rest of the nobles with an exception of Balgruuf was enjoying the luxury parties that the Thalmor was giving them.

The other Jarls don't like the Thalmor either, except maybe the guy from Falkreath. Enjoying parties doesn't mean anything, Elenwen spends large amounts of money on them. I could hate you, but still enjoy being served good food and drinks, while we both lie and say how good it is to see each other.


The data doesn't agree. In fact General Tullius relationship status with Elenwen is positive; Confidant (2).

I wouldn't take that to heart, Ulfric is apparently friends with an Argonian who celebrates when he gets killed.


"Elenwen is a formidable woman. She lacks for neither cunning nor ambition. Now that I think of it, she would have made a fine Imperial general."

Respecting your enemy, something you should learn. Never underestimate them, respect their ability. Many historical Military leaders have respected their foe.


Yet the blades hasn't change. The organization it self is gravely ill and on life support. Under Stormcloak victory the Blades can recover from their wounds, and thrive.

Nothing indicates they're expecting any problems. Under Stormcloak victory, you simply remove the Empire and any counter-espionage protection it may have brought.

To be fair the Grey beards are harboring a criminal. A mass murderer. Protecting him from seeking justice.

Paarthurnax even acknowledge that the Blades are in the right of not trusting him.

With Alduin gone what makes you truly believe that he will return to his former days? After all Dragons true nature is to dominate.

The Septim's protected him, not just the Greybeards. Paarthurnax is far more useful than the Blades, he's spent thousands of years sitting on a mountain mediating the way of the voice... Some would call that time served.


They can't stop Alduin but they can certainly aid the Dragonborn. Arngeir wasn't making it easy for the Dragonborn, and was giving him a hard time while Alduin was burning down villages and killing people below. Even one of the Greybeard members had tell Arngeir to STFU and to let the Dragonborn see Paarthurnax already.

Exactly another Greybeard, one doesn't represent all. They're all Greybeards and each a Master.


You're right. The Justiciars are in Skyrim because the Empire let them come as part of the WGC. At least were on the same page on that.

Justiciars aren't the worst thing, it is what the Thalmor aren't showing in public that is the issue.



According to every source in game, Titus II is the reason for the White-Gold Concordat. With his death, could lead to the removal of the treaty and war with the Dominion.

The penitus Oculatus in skyrim were still intelligence officers, they should have been working on uncovering assassination attempts, as proven in "Breaching Security". They failed at that though pretty bad, and they wouldn't have destroyed the sanctuary if not for astrid's betrayal.

We don't get an exact date on the college and synod, but everyone says the mages guild dissolved after the OC, so probably not 17 years after, which was when Titus took power.

The Legion didn't do all that well actually. In Cyrodiil, the only battle they actually won was red ring. No where does it say they could hold them anywhere and the dominion reached the imperial city VERY fast.

According to Rise and Fall of the Blades, they did see the war coming and apparently warned the empire. It seems to me the blades and empire still cooperated, why would the blades carry out all the espionage work when they aren't working for anyone and have no purpose at the moment?

People consider Markarth to be the beginning, but Hadvar says their ranks only really swelled after Torygg died. Either way, they weren't in a position to march over to hammerfell to fight the Aldmeri.

Previously you said Cyrodiil was devastated. Hammerfell has been fighting more recently, so they are likely less recovered than Cyrodiil. Skyrim is probably weakened not too much more than either of those provinces, the civil war and dragons was not as destructive as the Great War, but I suppose that could be up for debate.

Redguards say a united empire could take on the dominion. Skyrim at the time was part of that empire. There is more bitterness right now between the empire and hammerfell than skyrim and hammerfell.

Of course people are poor, it's the Middle Ages, I'm saying the nords have the potential to get a well equipped army and navy together and supplied in not a large amount of time. Ulfric states numerous times he has plans for markarth's silver, for example. And realistically, skyrim would basically claim legion ships left behind or whatever militia sort navy they had before the rebellion.

On a side note, I find it very interesting what happens to High Rock if the Stormcloaks win.
 
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TheQahnaarin

Son of Skyrim
I have to admit these discussions are pretty fun, I'm kind of surprised how the civil war has lead us to cover lore from all over the place.

It is interesting how our debates do somehow take us all over the place in lore. When I started out in this debate, I knew next to nothing about TES lore. I would get my ass handed to me, and generally just agreed or built upon the other Imperial supporter's arguments.

Lol I'm learning new things just researching for arguments
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The penitus Oculatus in skyrim were still intelligence officers, they should have been working on uncovering assassination attempts, as proven in "Breaching Security". They failed at that though pretty bad, and they wouldn't have destroyed the sanctuary if not for astrid's betrayal.

Keeping an Emperor safe isn't easy, the Blades failed at that more than once. I think five Septim's died under their protection, or four.

They did quite well, better than the Blades at least. (Unrelated but, I found it rather odd they would include the Stormcloak held cities as ones that guy visits in checking security)

We don't get an exact date on the college and synod, but everyone says the mages guild dissolved after the OC, so probably not 17 years after, which was when Titus took power.

It is probably in the novels, I will check it out later. There was a lot of chaos before Titus took power, two major Cyrodiil Mage factions establishing would have at least required some stability.

The Legion didn't do all that well actually. In Cyrodiil, the only battle they actually won was red ring. No where does it say they could hold them anywhere and the dominion reached the imperial city VERY fast.

It took three years for them to get the Imperial City... Also In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

The advantage the Aldmeri had was surprise.

According to Rise and Fall of the Blades, they did see the war coming and apparently warned the empire. It seems to me the blades and empire still cooperated, why would the blades carry out all the espionage work when they aren't working for anyone and have no purpose at the moment?

They were never and arm of the Imperial Government, they may have cooperated, but the Blades were in it for themselves. They considered the Thalmor a threat to the Dragonborn they were waiting for.

"But even the Blades didn't see the Great War coming. We underestimated the Thalmor, and they destroyed us." - Delphine


People consider Markarth to be the beginning, but Hadvar says their ranks only really swelled after Torygg died. Either way, they weren't in a position to march over to hammerfell to fight the Aldmeri.

They had enough numbers to reconquer the Reach. That militia is considered the original Stormcloaks. I'm not saying they were in a position, it was just something to consider.

Previously you said Cyrodiil was devastated. Hammerfell has been fighting more recently, so they are likely less recovered than Cyrodiil. Skyrim is probably weakened not too much more than either of those provinces, the civil war and dragons was not as destructive as the Great War, but I suppose that could be up for debate.

Cyrodiil was hit very hard, Thalmor threw everything it could. Hammerfell was only devastated in the southern regions. Looking at the map, the Aldmeri would have most likely controlled from Taneth (sp?) and another city south of that to Stros M'kai (sp?)

Redguards say a united empire could take on the dominion. Skyrim at the time was part of that empire. There is more bitterness right now between the empire and hammerfell than skyrim and hammerfell.

Except Skyrim is in no position to strike at the Aldmeri Dominion, they require the aid of other provinces. The Legions are already in place, and as seen by the Imperial victory the Legion isn't planning on building an army in Skyrim. Only the Stormcloaks need to do that, which takes time.

Of course people are poor, it's the Middle Ages, I'm saying the nords have the potential to get a well equipped army and navy together and supplied in not a large amount of time. Ulfric states numerous times he has plans for markarth's silver, for example.

On a side note, I find it very interesting what happens to High Rock if the Stormcloaks win.

Not just people, but the Holds are pretty poor. Of course Ulfric has the potential to equip an army, but he also has to train them, establish governments, make Skyrim self sufficient. The Nords don't control all of the routes in the Reach, and the Stormcloaks still have to deal with the out of control bandit situation and the Forsworn. Before they can go invade anyway, they need to build ships (if they're planning an invasion by sea) Though invading by sea would be the worst mistake, the Nords have too far to travel and the Altmer are experts at naval warfare.

High Rock, would do whatever High Rock does. Probably go back to bickering between their various rulers, and courts. Politics is something they love. According to Galmar, the Bretons might as well be Elves. (Probably the highest insult he gives?)
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
"Now that the Empire's arrived in Riften, we've finally established a launching point into Morrowind... Just in case." - Legion Soldiers in Riften

Imperials are planning something, that could be them securing their rear... Or perhaps future sights set on reclaiming Morrowind one day.

Edit: Raijin for your necromancer, the Empire does offer a supply of fresh corpses to Necromancers who have done the Empire a service.
 
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